[Closed] Guistaristas! A set up question? (Well it's more of an opinion, really!)

About 1.7 through to 2.2 on my electrics. The nut is filed to Warmouth standard which is a little lower than Fender and the truss rod is set so there's just a little daylight in the middle of a ruler laid over the frets. When I've borrowed guitars with higher strings I find it uncomfortable and make unwanted noises when bending as I can't mute the other strings.

I've been out of the game for a long time but I think your basic premise is a bit off... If you have fret buzz it's generally a setup issue, whether or not you have high or low strings. Obviously it's harder to do cleanly with lower strings and with tremelos, and neck and nut shape makes a difference too, and you need to take into account alt tuning... but on a healthy guitar you can generally attain a low string level without worrying about "vibrating freely".

Also the thing about "make the neck straight without strings" doesn't pass muster, different necks and rods have their own natural reaction to string tension. (my lovely silver series tele has a neck like a rubber band; my bc rich was a bastard to set up because its neck was so solid). And of course different strings exert different pressure too.

(a standard, unblocked trem will always move when you bend the strings, because physics... I guess you just mean enough to be noticable?)

It's [i]massively[/i] personal taste though and mostly it feels like you have a setup you like and you've confused it with a correct setup. That's the reason I never really liked working on other people's guitars, I'm a decent technician but a pretty horrible guitarist so it was like Days of Thunder, sometimes I'd just not really know what people wanted. Fender recommendations and shop setups are a starting point, same as bikes.

I can set it up with out fretbuzz at the fender recommended 1.6mm. fret buzz isn't the issue. It's more about the strings ringing freely, just giving it a much much better overall tone.

Re the trem, yes, so it's really notice about, like there's a 1-2mm movement when you bend a string up a couple of semi tones. That's just a personal revelation though, I never realised it was ment to do that! 🙂

Aye, I know it's all personally preference, but from a sound/tone point of view, higher is much much better, even acoustically, it's very noticeable how much louder and cleaner the guitar sounds with the above set up, and it's much easily to get the guitar to squeal(you know that way you play and you can get kinda dummy harmonics depending on how you strike the strings with the plectrum.)

educator, I find the exact opposite with lower string, it's much more difficult to get a good grip on the string and it frets out, so you don't get a clean bend thoughout.

Like NW says though, it is personal pref. And I guess I'm slightly more bias to higher action, being more acoustic orientated.

I'm just curious to other peoples setups. 🙂

I think its because you are coming from acoustics/classicals where you had
to work with higher action and wider neck - they had to be to make those natural sounds - room for the strings to vibrate - exactly as you say.
Electric tends not to be a "natural" sound -so restrictions in sounds that can be made by the physical string are less specific - basically any sound they make can be used - almost.
Its about what you like to play really - your acoustics/classicals background will make you potentially more disciplined in what you expect - you can have it how you want . Yes 1.6 is going to be tough to make work unless setup by somebody who knows all the ins n outs of the hardware and even then it may make horrible noises when played with your individual style.

You mean pitch harmonics when the string comes off the pick onto your thumb which gives a harmonic.

I've just had a play on my Mexican Strat. String height makes no difference to tone unless it's so low it buzzes.

If the strings aren't ringing freely because of string height/fret clearance then they're buzzing, it's the same thing (or something else is set up wrong, string choked in the nut or something, but that's not really a height issue- it can be influenced by string height as the angle of departure changes though... It may have changed but mim fender setup used to be a wee bit random)

Since you're happier with the high setup anyway it's not important but I think for that part, you've basically attributed a setup issue to string height, then coincidentally fixed it with higher strings, rather than it really being a string height issue per se. But you've moved away from it anyway so it doesn't matter.

Low as possible for me, bass and electric. Higher action tends to cause problems with intonation (for me, anyway)

finishthat - Member
make horrible noises when played with your individual style.

I think that is a very important point, I attack the guitar pretty violently. I can have a soft touch, and can play fairly dynamically, if I like, but I tend to play it pretty hard which is no doubt not an insignificant factor.

educator, yes pitch harmonics, didn't know they had an actual name! 😆

Not too high, not too low. So I like my strings high enough to remove any buzz and to stop any fretting out/choking when I bend them as far as 2 whole steps up.

Northwind - Member
If the strings aren't ringing freely because of string height/fret clearance then they're buzzing, it's the same thing (or something else is set up wrong, string choked in the nut or something, but that's not really a height issue- it can be influenced by string height as the angle of departure changes though... It may have changed but mim fender setup used to be a wee bit random)

Since you're happier with the high setup anyway it's not important but I think for that part, you've basically attributed a setup issue to string height, then coincidentally fixed it with higher strings, rather than it really being a string height issue per se. But you've moved away from it anyway so it doesn't matter.

i don't really think so, I've got a enough relief in the neck to counter any fret leveling issues at a lower height., tbh, finishthat hit the nail on the head. It's to do with how you play. if you hit the strings hard, you can't avoid them been tempered by hitting the frets, so that's not a set up issue, it's a style issue I guess.

Yeah, but that'll only be present while you're wailing on it, I get the impression from your first post that you're talking about a more consistent sound quality issue? I could be wrong though.

As low as possible without buzz for me. But i play a lot of palm muting and picked single notes though. i.e.

Guess the answer is, i depends on what you're playing.

Nice metal playing, Steve. You should really put the tortured pig running around the studio out of its misery though. 😉

Northwind - Member
Yeah, but that'll only be present while you're wailing on it, I get the impression from your first post that you're talking about a more consistent sound quality issue? I could be wrong though.

Those 2 things are connected though, at a lower setup if you play more gently I can get it to sound fine. but it's just physics, If you pluck a string harder the vibration is going to be much more. You know, if you've got the guitar setup at 1.6mm, it's very easy get a string to vibrate beyond that.

i can even get it to play nice with a straight neck and playing more gently, but relief, just gives the guitar a slacker feel I find (btw I take your point earlier on my straight with no strings being dependent on the wood, fair comment that.)

With the neck too straight you'll get buzzing when playing at the head end of the neck. Too bent and you'll get buzzing when playing higher than the 12th. (for a height at the 12th that would normally play fine all the way up the neck with the right neck bend)

I'm not a great fan of metal, Steve, and junior has given me an overdose. I don't "get" the death metal vocal noises so don't be offended.

An acoustic, but the principle is the same and the vibrations circles won't be much different. but look how much the string it's vibrating.

The lower string look like they've got about a 4mm cicrle, and the higher strings a bit less. Guitar looks like it's been played at a reasonable attack level. not too soft not too hard.

A fairly irritating guy, but show you how much vibration at full pelt, obviously no-one plays this hard.

A higher action can be useful to allow heavier strings - that's where you're likely to get a tonal improvement rather than height per se.

I gave up on my 'own tone' with the advent of digital modelling and being in a working covers band - the adaptability of being close to what the ear expects for a particular song won out for me. That and improving my posture from not lugging 30Kg of valves around.

educator, yes pitch harmonics, didn't know they had an actual name!

They do but it's [b]pinch[/b] harmonics 🙂

As an acoustic beginner getting the height reduced helped a lot, my teacher local bar manager/performer recommended it.

We all learn something every day. Ta, Brassneck.

As long as the frets are dressed properly, the nut is cut properly, the neck angle is OK and the neck relief adjusted properly then a low action should sound as good as a higher action unless you are attacking the strings like a gorilla and making their amplitude so large they are bouncing off the frets. In fact a high action might give tuning problems as you would be stretching the strings when pushing them down onto the frets. My Strat is adjusted according to Fender's recommendation and I wouldn't like it any higher. The action on my Breedlove acoustic is a bit higher but that's due to me not being able to get bridge saddle lowered any further due to a badly set neck. I do like thicker gauge strings on the acoustic as they sound better and I find having a bit more string to get hold of helps with cleanly fretting them.

It's not just a tone question btw, half my point is that higher strings are just easier to play aswell. Low action is weedy feeling, there's no substance to it, no grip and bending in particular sounds terrible..

btw i'd suggest if at the fender recommeded 1.6mm, and you aren't hitting the string off the fret board, well you are playing like a fairy, play the guitar man, don't tickle it! 😉

I used to use 9's years ago with a really low action. I now prefer the feel of 10's better tone and sustain for me. Action is a little higher may even try 11's at some point. I think it's definitely worth letting your guitars get used to the humidity in your house then getting a professional set up with your intended style and tuning etc in mind.

I like country and southern rock; bending the B an G strings on the first and second frets with 10s is hard work. With 9s I can accurately ease up to the note required. I used to use 9E, 10B, 14G but make do with standard 9-42/46 now. (James Burton invented 9s and Gibbons has used 8s)

Going from 10s to 11s was a thread I posted last week actually. But I'm sticking with the 10s now. The higher strings gives me the desired results! 🙂

Btw regarding intonation problems. I think you need to go pretty high for that to be an issue. I've tested the intonation at various points(I always adjust that when I change the setup) on the guitar and it's bang on.

Unless you've got a custom made nut I very much doubt your guitar is spot on for intonation on all the strings on the first fret.

btw i'd suggest if at the fender recommeded 1.6mm, and you aren't hitting the string off the fret board, well you are playing like a fairy, play the guitar man, don't tickle it!

Its an electric guitar. If I want it louder I'll turn up the volume

Edukator - Reformed Troll
Unless you've got a custom made nut I very much doubt your guitar is spot on for intonation on all the strings on the first fret

uponthedowns - Member
Its an electric guitar. If I want it louder I'll turn up the volume

I'm not dissing your approach btw, it's all good, just promoting my point of view. 😉

Uponthedowns has it about right. Correctly set up nut slot depths, level frets and neck relief are all vital. Playing action is a personal choice, there is no wrong or right action.

Slight thread hi-jack. For sustain has anybody tried the Ibanez Tube Screamer? I have acquired a 5w tube amp that has a great tone but is bloody loud when it's over driven. Looking to get a decent over driven sound with a sensible volume level.

Inbred456 - Member
Slight thread hi-jack. For sustain has anybody tried the Ibanez Tube Screamer? I have acquired a 5w tube amp that has a great tone but is bloody loud when it's over driven. Looking to get a decent over driven sound with a sensible volume level.

boss cs-3 compression sustainer is what you are after, tremendous pedal for ridiculous sustain.

Thanks Seos will check out some reviews. Always loved the sustain that Gary Moore got from that original Tube Screamer pedal.

Inbred456 - Member
Thanks Seos will check out some reviews. Always loved the sustain that Gary Moore got from that original Tube Screamer pedal.

btw I duno how gary moore does his stuff. so it may not be relevant to his sound. I don't really know his music.

You're missing the point(s), one of which is that a guitar with lower action has a narrower dynamic range, another is it has less sustain

Sorry but that's nonsense. I pick horizontally so the string vibrates mostly horizontally and not vertically so I can pick as hard or a soft as I want and no matter how hard I hit the string, as long as the neck is set up properly, its not going to hit a fret its not meant to. As long as the string is free to vibrate a low action will sustain as long as a high action. Action is really a personal preference. I'll take a low action as its easier to play (loads of beginners have been put of the guitar for life by starting with cheap guitars with high actions) but if you like to fight the instrument and it works for you that's great.

Guitar strings vibrate in ovals or circles. It's nearly impossible to get a string to vibrate purely horizontally, there's always a fair bit of movement horizontally and vertically..

Even if you could, sounds like an incredibly limiting way to play. Aye you pick horizontally, but the angle of attack varies considerably based on how you want a particular string to actually sound after it's been struck.

low action is easier for beginners, purely because they've no strength in their fingers. No other reason. There is no fighting with higher action.

I'm going to disagree with the OP.

I set my Guitars up with the lowest action I can, might include a bit of fret buz down near the nut.

That's just how I like it.

I've an Alhambra Spanish guitar and a Steel strung Terry Peck, both set up as low as possible.

The best tuning for me though is a dropped E to D.

Inbred456 - Member
Slight thread hi-jack. For sustain has anybody tried the Ibanez Tube Screamer? I have acquired a 5w tube amp that has a great tone but is bloody loud when it's over driven. Looking to get a decent over driven sound with a sensible volume level.

POSTED 9 HOURS AGO # REPORT-POST

What sort of amp do you have?

If the amp doesn't have a decent volume circuit, but does have an eq loop, I'd put an eq pedal in the loop and use that to both eq the amp and reduce volume. That'd be my first purchase rather than an OD or compressor to do what I think you're after.

Or I'd flog the amp and get one that sounds great at low volumes 🙂

Back on topic - action's subjective, I like mine low. i also prefer compound radius fret boards as well 😉

bikebouy - Member
I'm going to disagree with the OP.

Life would be rubbish if we all agreed! 😉

But low action is a myth that's propagated from the concept of telling beginners it's easier to play, then people end up stuck with it. There's a wealth of goodness in raising the strings as much as you can handle.

Guess my main point here is the goal shouldn't be to get the action as low as you can, but when setting up, keep it as high as you can, while still retaining comfort!

Anyhow, like everyone knows, it's all personal choice, and I've put my point across now, so my work here is done! 🙂

i also prefer compound radius fret boards as well

Higher action - generally more sustain, but poorer intonation if you too far

Lower action - better playability and intonation, but poorer sustain.

But as others have said, play what feels right to you. There is no right or wrong, just what feels right. Personally I prefer verging on low action, but not metal low, as I use a compressor for clean or am mainly on a bit of distortion so won't chase sustain for something I don't like playing.

As far as the second question on increasing sustain with a tubescreamer. Well you have to try things, and see what works with your amp and guitar is the most obvious answer.

Gary Moore got the sustain through driving at the front end of a tube amp hard with the tube screamer, but also the verb and delay was pretty essential to his sound.

If you want sustain on a clean tone, you need a compressor, if you want sustain with a dirty sound you need to be pushing either the tubes or pedal into overdrive, which itself is compression (noise floor raised, quite sounds brought up, high volumes notes brought down to a ceiling). Sustain is achieved through compression - overdrives and compressors both give you compression, it's just the sound they deliver to achieve this.

To achieve this at a low volume you need either a master volume as already said; raise the gina stage in the preamp and control master volume to get your low volume. If you don't have a master volume you either need to drive the front end with a boosted signal (something like EP booster), or move the compression down the line with a compressor (CS-3 etc) for clean or an overdrive (TS-808) to compress with clipping and pass that to the amp. You can use a compressor to raise the level and drive the front end, but it's an unusual way to drive the front end.

Personally for home use I stack pedals and split into a different amps to get the mix I like, a change the order depending on the sound I want, gain stacking can be a beautiful thing if you have the patience, but you'll end up harvesting pedals to try combos searching for the elusive tone, which if we are being honest most audiences won't notice once the basic sound is right, but it matters to you when you're playing 🙂

Specifically on the Tubescreamer, it again depends on the amp. The TS and it's clones have a distinct mid hump (thats it's sound signature), works great on a vintage Fender style amps, as they don't have a mid hump. Put it on a marshall which has a mid hump, you get a very middly sound.

Personally I don't like the mid hump of a TS most of the time, but I prefer less of a middly sound and less in your face. TS into something like a Blues Junior sounds great and pushes the mids where you don't have it. So it all depends on your amp.

After all that I would say:

if you have a master vol amp - push the gain stage and control volume with the master

if you don't and it has a mid hump (think marshall), for clean use a compressor (dyna comp or CS-3 etc), for driven use a klone clone for a transparent drive

If you don have master volume and you don't have a middly amp (vintage Fender etc), then compressor for clean as above. Or for dirty a TS or clone.

Either way without master volume it's an amp designed to be driven hard to get the tone, which requires volume. For home practice you do really need a master volume amp or a switchable master stage to run it at a lower volume.

The quest for tone is never ending...

Alternatively just use a modelling amp. With a bit of patience you can imitate a vast range of amps and pedals. We've had experienced blues players (with rigs costing several thousands) poking around junior's Fender Mustang V head and cab loaded with Vintage 30s, and complimenting him on his sound.

seosamh77 - Member
i also prefer compound radius fret boards as well

can't say I've ever tried one, what's the benefit?
fair comment on the amp btw. a host of pedals is unlikly to improve a poor amp (at low volumes.)
POSTED 6 HOURS AGO #

There are a few but like most things its about what you prefer the feel of.

Being able to run a lower action without worrying (as much) about fretting out on bends.

I'm not going to write a lot on it. I like compound raise boards but then I play rock/metal and don't really play my acoustic much at all. Here's a decent looking write up - http://www.stewmac.com/How-To/Online_Resources/Neck_Building_and_Repair_and_Setup/Compound_Radius_Explained.html (if its crap, I haven't read it)

I don't like a high action and I don't like scalloped frets either but that doesn't make either of them any better or worse than a low action. It's how it feels to you.

Have you considered getting a setup done by a good tech? A good tech won't let you leave till you're delighted with what they've done. It'd give you a good idea what to aim for next time.

CaptainSlow - Member
Have you considered getting a setup done by a good tech? A good tech won't let you leave till you're delighted with what they've done. It'd give you a good idea what to aim for next time.

Only thing I wouldn't do(at this moment) are the fret leveling/adjusting the nut(mind you I've got an old battered 1992 korean squire strat I could practice on with that). The rest I can do and have experimented more than enough, that I know how it feels to me, so I don't really need anyone else to set up.

The fret levelling only becomes crucial with low action, and I've raised the strings up far enough and have enough relief, by choice, that the fret levelling is fairly irrelevant.

The nut, I'd really only adjust that if I was having problems in the open position which i'm not.

Basically, nah, setting up a guitar isn't difficult, I don't really need someone to tell me things I can do myself, and I highly doubt I'd be happy, even with the greatest setup at low action. Plus i'm the same with fixing bikes, I'd much rather teach myself.

Whilst we're on about guitars, I'm looking for a small pre loaded effects (rather sounds, like clean strat/tele and such) I used to admire Line6 Pods, are these still worth it or is there something else?
I'd only use it for home and headphones, nothing more..

My nut files cost 80e IIRC, use them twice and they pay for themselves. Not needed on my Mexican Strat though, the frets didn't need touching either. IME it's the pick ups and electrics that are poor on the MIMs. The bridge pick up is aggressive and the wiring bizarre - no tone control in the bridge only position. I'll only do anything about it if I play it anywhere other than at home.

Aye I don't see any major problems with the leveling or the nut anyhow, so i'm happy with them.

aye the pickups in the mim aren't the best I don't think, for clean tones they are fine, mild distortion/od they are ok, but there's a certain level you go beyond and they just don't play nice imo (though in saying that, I do find rolling the tone back solves the problems to a point). I think I will swap them out at some point in the future. I'm not too crazy about too much OD/distortion though, so they are fine for my purposes.

tbh I'm torn between swapping them out, or just buying a les paul style guitar with good humbuckers for overdriven stuff and keepind the mim as is for cleaner stuff..

furry muff seosamh, t'was just a thought.

Bikebouy - depends which pod you're after. I've had both the HD300 and HD500. Both sound good if you're willing to put the time into tweaking them and have a decent means of listening to it.

Line 6 released their next gen unit the Helix recently and it is a massive step up. If you're after line 6 kit I'd look at that if budget allows or the fire hawk (I think thats what its called).

If you've got helix cash though there are other options... 😉