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yes I have. Killing without cruelty – there is no real difference in the cruelty in an abattoir ( and the transport to it) or on the moorsides IMO
I eat meat but I have no illusions that meat is animals and they are killed for food nor have I any illusions about factory farming or hunting.
Me too. As im a time served Butcher I was interested in all aspects of my trade and took a 2 year p/t course in meat inspection, based in Glasgow Abattoir. So I'm very familiar with it all from start to finish, and obviously the legislation required in the production of meat as our foodstuff.
Personally I've never witnessed cruelty as a rule in a slaughterhouse, apart from odd incidents perpetrated by poor operatives, acting by themselves and who were sacked for their actions.
But if you can't tell the difference, then you are the wrong person to speak on such matters.
I have visited abattoirs and and I've also shot and butchered deer. There is absolutely no comparison in the level of stress and suffering and I know which I'd prefer. Farm animals, often from intensive farming systems, transported stressfully en masse in overcrowded vehicles to an industrial facility where many sense what's about to happen and bleat/moo pitifully, clearly distressed up until they are stunned. Whilst I accept that abattoir staff do all they can to minimise suffering they are not always successful. They are bleak, depressing places and many farm animals have fairly miserable lives even before the point of slaughter, Two for a fiver Tesco chicken anyone? Male dairy calves?
Compared to a deer in it's natural environment, not transported anywhere, unstressed, browsing leaves, blissfully unaware of a stalkers presence until it falls over having never even heard the shot that killed it. Which is more ethical? To say hunting for food should be banned whilst defending the industrial slaughter of animals is gross hypocrisy.
Cheers for the link Matt, interesting read.
But if you can’t tell the difference, then you are the wrong person to speak on such matters.
I can tell the difference
As the blokes post points out - there isn't really one or not a quantifiable one that makes a moral differnce
Stick to calling o9ut the shooting and hunting bams for the wrong they do but don't think factory reared abbotoir killed meat is morally superior to free range and cleanly shot meat
anyway - enough thread digression
Oh bums TJ, what a dilemma for you. Bloke's point stands with you on abattoirs, but against your views on hunting.
But fair enough, back to hunting driven grouse.
Or we can all agree that there are points on all sides and people have differing views. 'Agree to disagree' like so many arguments and debates, should then be the status quo.
works for me
Another interesting piece - I agree that food and farming is a totally integral part of the countryside, and there's changes/improvements needed on both sides of the (non existent) fence imo.
Further to my assertion that larsen or cage traps are routinely used on grouse moors to kill birds of prey. Brads was insistent they are not. These cage traps are often used illegally both in that they are not checked daily as they should be and that they are used to catch and kill raptors
I find it interesting as to where Larsen traps are locally.
The estates in the near vicinity - just off tracks or roads, easily accessible to maintain.
The estates I know in Glen Almond with evidenced wildlife crime and suspicions of wildlife crime - hidden way off the track, invisible unless within a few metres etc.
Keep an eye on the hidden ones matt and report them if any suspicions
The lovely Dalhousie estate are being investigated further over the death through gas poisoning of a guest in one of their properties. Maybe they will take time off burning the moors to get their stories straight?
Opening para…
A Perthshire shooting estate faces three years of restrictions after a Scottish government body imposed limitations on its general licence.
And linked in the comments https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-nottinghamshire-60156311
3 of the white tailed eagles reintroduced to the isle of wight killed
the local MP?
"
Mr Loder said: "Dorset is not the place for eagles to be reintroduced. I’m not challenging government for more money for Dorset so it goes on this.
"I don’t condone this at all, but I want Dorset Police to focus on county lines rather than spend time and resources on this."
Convicted game keeper from the Angus Millden Estate.
https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/scots-gamekeeper-exposed-part-brutal-26921255
he sent horror photographs to be developed and the alarm was raised by the shop worker who was appalled
Ive read that a few times but find it hard to believe youd take photos of animal cruelty then get them developed in a shop.
Well the good news is he'll probably never be able to work as a gamekeeper again, I can't imagine he'll ever be able to hold an air rifle certificate let alone a Firearms Licence. Not sure which makes me more angry, what he did or the fact it's an incidental charge that will actually stop him being able to work as a keeper.
Ive read that a few times but find it hard to believe youd take photos of animal cruelty then get them developed in a shop.
I mean, his solicitor wasn't wrong.
"How he was detected suggests a lack of guile and thought," the lawyer said. "It appears that he didn't think through the implications of what he was doing."
I'm not really sure how else he thought that would end. Same idiot mentality as Gary Glitter really.
That mp I referred to above has now leant on the local police. Investigations closed. Wildlife crime unit disbanded.
Its a criminal conspiracy
I mean, his solicitor wasn’t wrong.
He had a QC, impressive he was able to afford that, isn't it? Local estate to me and as disruptive to access as you could imagine them being. Various bridges on their land have all been declared dangerous and barbed wire up over the last decade or so. Weirdly only the ones on once popular Duke of Edinburgh routes; must be those heavy packs Bronze kids pack.
And it's exactly those people that give all estates a shitty name. If you think views are entrenched (not the right word but I'm on nights) here (eg. towards drivers) you ain't seen anything in the shooting world. You literally have to be 'for' everything or you're basically no better than an 'anti' (according to some I hasten to add, not everyone thinks like this).
One of our local spots - another Golden Eagle and I could have placed a bet about which estate....
https://raptorpersecutionuk.org/2022/05/17/dead-golden-eagle-found-in-strathbraan-police-scotland-appeals-for-information/
I have had previous with them in my old job, and any walk around the hills of Strathbraan shows a narrow biodiversity and near mono-culture in existence. Alongside multiple larsen cages, random feed in trays on moorland (not grit) etc.
One of the estates local to me & somewhere I cycle through regularly has been given the "Wildlife Estates Scotland" award for recognising its wildlife & conservation efforts. It has also been awarded the "Golden Plover Award" for integrated & sustainable upland management. The owner of the estate also happened to be the chairman of the WES project at the time he awarded himself the award. The estate owner has also been bestowed an OBE for services to wildlife conservation in Scotland.
He has effectively excluded most members of the public from the estate by closing access to the small car park which lies on land within the estate but owned by the local water authority. The justification for doing this was that he was providing a new more suitable car park nearby. This he did, but there was a new and previously unmentioned permit system in place. There were 12 annual permits available, just 12 & I have never seen any cars there. The car park he supplied; the last time I looked was full of plant machinery & had been closed to the public. There is no impediment to walkers or cyclists but it's had the desired effect that very few people now venture there on foot.
I'm no expert on these matters but it looks to me that a lot of the estate along with the adjoining estates are run as driven shooting estates. There are well maintained butts all over the estate. The whole place is tidy & well kept but that is where the good news ends. The habitat is heather & Muirburn.
There's a remote area that my wife & I cycle through, my wife calls it the valley of death. There were a variety of bird & animal carcasses in varying states of decomposition littering the ground over a wide area. I had to ride round them there were so many. There are traps for mustelids everywhere, Larsen bird traps not so frequent but still plenty of them. Dead hares and rabbits used to be a frequent sight but I think both of these populations have been all but eradicated.
I had a lengthy conversation with the local BTO ranger (British Trust for Ornithology) a few months ago. He is licenced to ring certain species of wild birds, monitor the population & habitat. I brought the subject of the estate in question up & I could see his demeanour changing. He said "there's no good news". He has personally witnessed wildlife crime taking place there. This was witnessed by him & an accompanying colleague. The gamekeeper shot an owl about 400m from where the were stood. The carcass was concealed but the local wildlife crimes officer later located this. They were threaten with physical violence & prosecution for "trespass" by the gamekeeprs at the site of the crime.
It's honestly heartbreaking that this is going on in plain sight. It looks to me like landowners can pretty much do whatever they want when it comes to wildlife persecution & suffer zero concequences. There's simply no accountability to anyone else for their actions.
I'm with TJ's views on this. It's a criminal conspiracy of epic proportions hidden in plain sight.
Is there information on how many pheasants a raptor may take through a year?
It can't be more than a days shoot which seems to average 600kills and this is a small shooting range, sorry estate. The cost to an estate of "feeding" a raptor must be £10s per year. Yet days shoot costs £100s.
As said earlier I'm compromised as I take pheasants from the shoot that would go into landfill. Probably half a dozen per week through the season plus grouse and regularly have to decline politely when 2 dozen birds turn up. Still hate the whole industry though
Some chunky proposals over estate ownership, responsibility and tax avoidance:
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/jul/04/big-scottish-landowners-could-face-fines-nature-climate-failings
Ok, finally some movement on this. Time for some Singletrack voices to be added to the debate..?
https://consult.gov.scot/environment-forestry/wildlife-management-in-scotland/
Thanks for the link, a job for this evening.
Bump.
It's mostly a questionnaire to complete, with the various areas addressed in turn from Licences, muirburn, trapping etc., mainly yes/no answers with room to comment. If everything in this was enacted, we would be making a significant step towards clipping the wings of the driven shooting industry. Although I'd still like to go further.
I've no objection to 'hunting' for food with firearms; it's the slaughter of farmed birds (pheasants, partridges, grouse) and everything that spins outwards from that which I strongly object to. Plus the obscene tax breaks and twisted agricultural support that are still in place.
There’s a major avian flu outbreak across the country but they’re still allowed to release captive bred birds because…🙁
You think that shoots are releasing captive bred Grouse?
Completed
Arable, Sheep farming, Forestry and Grouse moors are all mono cultures. And environmentally all really harmful in different ways.
In Wales Curlews and Peewits are almost extinct. The Pennines Grouse moors have a a lot of these species even though it's not perfect Peewit habitat. In part that's due to Keepers eliminating scavenger/predators. When the Environment gets so degraded previously minor factors can tip the balance.
You think that shoots are releasing captive bred Grouse?
I’ll defy you to go onto many a ‘grouse moor’ to find grouse because there aren’t any. I used to live on an estate in Moray at the northern edge of the Cairngorms and would spend hours at a time walking with my dog and you’d maybe raise a couple of pairs. It was even worse if you went south into the National Park, areas managed by Crown Estates, completely devoid of anything living apart from a few scraggy sheep.
Completed that survey too.
PSA:
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Three years in the making, Riverwoods is a feature-length documentary narrated by Peter Capaldi that tells the compelling story of a barely believable relationship between fish and forest.
Why not get around the TV with family and friends and learn why…
The salmon need the forest. The forest needs the salmon. And Scotland needs them both.
*5Select is channel 56 on Freeview, elsewhere on other services. Available only on HD equipment.
Just a reminder the consultation on grouse moor licensing is still on. thew shooters lobby have as expected a coordinated response to this thats basically " Its no fair". The more people that sign in favour of licensing the sooner we put this criminal conspiracy out of business
Thanks, submitted
I found myself chatting to a couple of Canadian hunters last week.
They did not have a good view of UK hunting practices, and they didnt even get onto Raptor poisoning. The whole business of managing whole landscapes to breed game thats them forced into a firing line seemed alien, and frankly a bit disgusting. Could just be an anomaly and ive always viewed some of the hunting practices in North America in a better like than stuff like driven shoots anyway, so not sure how much my bias is involved.
There also seems to be a very high proportion of "for the pot only" hunting. Im nit actually sure how much that gets shot in the UK makes it to the pot?
Im nit actually sure how much that gets shot in the UK makes it to the pot?
Grouse and deer do end up mainly on the food table. Who's table is a thornier issue I think. Again, USA and Canada game seems (anecdotally) to fill a lot more diverse freezers...
The whole business of managing whole landscapes to breed game thats them forced into a firing line seemed alien, and frankly a bit disgusting.
I used to go shooting a lot. Mainly clays and targets, but I would get the occasional rabbit, and a few foxes have met their end because of me. And it all felt fine.
I was invited to go to a Pheasant shoot, by a wealthy Landowner. As above, I was disgusted by the idiots there who were having a great time shooting a pheasant that was walking 10 feet in front of them. There was no sport involved with it at all, it was mass murder. and the worst of it was the pheasant were not even taken home by the shooters. It was toward the end of the season, and the Shoot couldnt even sell them to the Butchers. They were put in a pile and burnt. This, I suspect is the same on Grouse moors, though I suspect the sporting element is a bit more, but even so, they are hushered toward the shooter, so hardly a difficult shot. Even though `i still shoot occasionally, i think it is morally wrong, and any cash made could easily be made another way without the need to ruin vast tanches of land for 2 months of shooting.
Again, USA and Canada game seems (anecdotally) to fill a lot more diverse freezers…
In the case of the Canadians I spoke too, they didn't actually seem to "take" much despite it being a big part if their identity. But everything theyvdid take went to stock up the family freezer.
I found myself chatting to a couple of Canadian hunters last week.
Bizarre.
If I was hunting Canadians I wouldn't be in Scotland.
I was at least actually in Canada.
Just a reminder the consultation on grouse moor licensing is still on. thew shooters lobby have as expected a coordinated response to this thats basically ” Its no fair”. The more people that sign in favour of licensing the sooner we put this criminal conspiracy out of business
Completed, many thanks for the link.
Consultation response submitted. Get your responses in.
Form submitted here too.
Nice to see the law is being used and licenses revoked.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-tayside-central-64863534
Article mentions that this is the fifth estate in Scotland to have its general license revoked.
Yes; baby steps but at least they're in the right direction.
Meantime, these last couple of days have been really smoky here in Angus, as the estates furiously burn their heather off. There's been a pall of brown smoke over 20 miles long hanging over Strathmore, highlighted by still air and blue skies. When are we going to finally ban this damaging, arcane activity..?
Good first step.
Now can they do the same to the Glen Almond estates...
Oh what a shame. they should have stopped being criminals then
good to see the bill finally getting to parliament. Its not that radical. If they don't kill raptors and follow the guidance on muirburn ( which they should have been doing anyway) they will be fine
I'm sure Fergus Ewing is apoplectic.
The field sports industry is a bit like trump supporters, if you have annoyed them then you must be doing something right.
Mar lodge - IIRC the sale to the NTS included a covenant that it was managed as a sporting estate still. So it shows what can be done. IIRC they now do walk up grouse shooting not driven - so kills are in small numbers not huge and thus the land does not have to be a monoculture grouse farm
Curious what habitat they claim to be preserving with muirburn (other than grouse habitat, obviously).
Is this a sledgehammer to the industry, or will it just result in reduced bags? I don't know how shooting is 'paid' for, per day out? per head grouse? If people want a day out shooting will they just give up if the prey becomes somewhat more scarce?
If people want a day out shooting will they just give up if the prey becomes somewhat more scarce?
That is the general argument of the field sports industry.
"Who ever heard of a deer forest with trees?" being a quote from the Caledonia book from a gamekeeper speaking about it.
I do think there is a balance - Mar Lodge is a good (yet imperfect, as they all are) example of that balance.
Our challenge is how we get from the culture and industry we have now to a culture and industry (livelihoods) which values nature alongside the field sports, rather than the affected/odd version they currently claim is nature.
I don't think it will actually make a huge difference to well managed grouse shoots that stay within the law. The ones in the criminal conspiracy will be put out of business. They will still be allowed muirburn - just will have to reduce the amount of it ad there will be oversight. Its not like grouse shooting is being banned or muirburn is banned
Over time it should improve land management and hopefully put a few of them out of business
They will still be allowed muirburn – just will have to reduce the amount of it ad there will be oversight.
With Nature Scot having lost 60%+ of its budget over the last few years, I wonder if there are enough people to actually undertake oversight. If a ranger/Nature Scot staff member pops in, the moment their back is turned the fire 'accidentally spreads from a rogue gust of wind' and burns it all anyway...
Then the estate can have its license revoked. vicarious liability - I think
“Who ever heard of a deer forest with trees?” being a quote from the Caledonia book from a gamekeeper speaking about it.
A very interesting bit in 'The book of Trespass' tells how the english population were foragers/hunters etc in the forests, until William the conqueror installed his 'landowners', who ,to make money selling deer meat, cut rides through the forests and banned the 'peasants' from foraging,so they could hunt more easily. So the people had to find other source of food/shelter so had to work for a landowner.
My worry is that if the grouse moors get shut down, the shooters will move down south, and takeover the remainder of the woods for more shoots
there is a consultation document to gather folks views on the proposed scheme
https://yourviews.parliament.scot/raine/wildlife-management-and-muirburn-scotland-bill/
One of the worst estates for being a barren grouse moor, in my experience, has been bought out by a conservation group.
There's a lot of bullshit bingo in the press release there - what does "the largest debt transaction on nature-based finance in the UK" mean?
You will never get rid of these awful things.
Too many rich and powerful people own them or enjoy the "sport" and pay a small fortune to do so.
How many do the Royals own and how many of them shoot?
Its slowly changing in Scotland and the grouse moor licensing will put some out of business no doubt - because they will not stop their criminal activity
Quite a few shooting estates no longer are such
One of the worst estates for being a barren grouse moor, in my experience, has been bought out by a conservation group.
That is interesting as Buccleuch also sold of a large part of Langholm Moor in the community buyout. https://www.langholminitiative.org.uk/langholm-moor
Of course, Buccleuch still has a LOT of shooting land, but very interesting that they are also not adverse to selling it off for non shooting purposes.
Of course, Buccleuch still has a LOT of shooting land, but very interesting that they are also not adverse to selling it off for non shooting purposes.
I have said a few times on this thread that we have to find alternative sources of income and employment alongside the cultural/attitudinal changes.
With my optimistic hat on I wonder how many bigger landowners will be seeing the changes coming, and opportunities a few enterprising charities/investors have implemented, and start to change how they view their land management and ownership....Is the the breath of change starting to blow?
I have said a few times on this thread that we have to find alternative sources of income and employment alongside the cultural/attitudinal changes.
There's a certain amount of eco-tourism? I think some former shooting estates have done OK out of this, and then there's Knepp?
Wildlife tourism is worth 5 million a year to the island of mull. grouse shooting brings little money in to the local economy - most of it stays on the estates
I wish I could find a link to the recent Nature Scotland/ Cairngorm NP research which demonstrated that outdoor sports alone, just within the National Park land area, are now worth more to the Scottish economy than all of the shooting across the whole of the country combined.
So, put simply, we could ban all driven shooting and nudge the landowners to adapt to a new world order where they have to encourage sports, eco-tourism and recreational activities across their land. Licence local hunting initiatives, as most civilised countries do. And the Americans.
We can then make ourselves into a healthier and wealthier country. It's not rocket science...
Wildlife tourism is worth 5 million a year to the island of mull. grouse shooting brings little money in to the local economy – most of it stays on the estates
I was on Isle of Luing at the weekend - even a tiny place like that had a busy visitors centre and cafe, and they said it was a constant stream of people most days through the season unless the weather was foul. Everyone was buying coffee, food, beer, books, ferry tickets of course. The food was local langousitine or lobster, beef from the island, and they reckoned that 30%+ of the veggie were frim the island. They were answering questions about wildlife tours and more and sharing local artists work.
It *seemed* a cracking income to the islanders....
Managed grouse moors tend to benefit a lot more to the fauna and biodiversity than just bringing in rich people to contribute to the economy. This covers it somewhat -
As with everything that's controversial or a hot topic, it's best to research things for yourself from an abject view point where you try to possess no feelings for either side of the board and come to a conclusion from researching the topics. I hold the opinion that if things aren't broken don't fix them. We've been doing grouse shooting for some time now and it does have its benefits on the ecosystem, but it also has negative ones particularly around releasing trapped carbon from the peat. As with everything there is always trade offs, however, the alternative suggestions we often see to "re-wild" places don't get reported on when they've been a massive failure with only specific species of fauna growing there because deer have no natural predators and eat all the saplings and new tree shoots so only the fastest growing thrive, as one example.
Do I agree with the hoity toity types shooting game birds? Well if they're not gonna do it here they're gonna do it elsewhere, and managing the uplands helps as said with biodiversity, the UK has lost almost half of it's biodiversity since the 1970's due to invasive farming practices, development, insect die off, predators not kept in check etc and it's sad. Anything which has a knock on effect and benefits a larger portion of wildlife to me is a good thing, even if its means big rich people shoot tons of birds, at least on good shoots most end up in the food chain, the few who dump the excess can't be a name for all shoots.
Errmmm - really not so. The grouse moor shooters like to claim it helps with biodiverstiy but its a monoculture green desert with all predators killed, no tree cover, impoverished soils and erosion problems from muirburn. Grouse shooting acts against biodiversity
The Moorland association is a shooters lobby group pumping out pro shooting propaganda
Biodiversity? don't make me laugh. The kill everything they can including endangered mountain hares to say nothing of the illegal killing of raptors which is widespread and well proven
we often see to “re-wild” places don’t get reported on when they’ve been a massive failure with only specific species of fauna growing there because deer have no natural predators and eat all the saplings and new tree shoots so only the fastest growing thrive,
The immediate answer is culling to a sustainable level. Look at what's happening in the likes of Glen Feshie. Of course, there's the option to re-introduce wolves too...
As scotroutes say - rewilding done right has huge biodiversity benefits
No trees at all on grouse moors
Grouse shooting acts against biodiversity
In the interests of balance, that's not entirely true. Ground nesting birds, some of which are nationally endangered, thrive on grouse moors due to predator control. Lapwings, Curlew, Golden Plover and Dunlin for example. Some rare invertebrates also do better on managed heather moorland than other habitats.
I'm not defending illegal raptor killing etc. which is an outrage and should be dealt with harshly - including the landowners through vicarious liability, but the biodiversity issue is not quite as black and white as you suggest.
A tiny possible benefit - set that against the huge losses to biodiversity from grouse moors.
It's all gardening anyway, as my old SNH boss who was a geologist used to say.
He did used to think in geological time frames though.
The key issue with modern grouse moor management is the fact that trees aren't allowed to grow.
The actual economic value of wider recreation activities isn't the issue, it's the fact that at present the estates get that revenue for very little relative cost to them.
Bike hire and tea shops and guided walks will all bring in money, but at greater cost than the current activities.
And the killing of all unwanted animals. Eagles, buzzards, kites, sparrowhawks, hares, stoats, weasels, anything that either competes with or eats grouse. Medicated grit is a big issue as well I believe.
It’s all gardening anyway, as my old SNH boss who was a geologist used to say.
He did used to think in geological time frames though.
I like that 🙂
When did Grouse moors become a thing? And what was the landscape like prior to this? Were the Highlands (and the vast tracts of moorland south of the Central belt) all covered in groves of Caledonian pines?
And, without man's interference, what species of fauna dominated?
And, more to the point, would eradicating grouse moors dramatically reduce the number of midges? 😄
(Sorry for any derail...I'm just curious having bagged 100+ Munro's in the past without really knowing what the landscape should look like!)
Ground nesting birds, some of which are nationally endangered, thrive on grouse moors due to predator control. Lapwings, Curlew, Golden Plover and Dunlin for example.
That's exactly what it says on the 'Welcome to the Moor' boards on our local grouse moor. All I ever actually see is grouse.