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It really is you know Brads
The extent of the criminality right across hunting and shooting has been well and truely exposed. Ewing the shooters friend and the major roadbliock to reform has been removed and the greens are now going to make the policy on this
the hunting and shooting lobby has been given loads of chances to get its house in order and has infact become much much worse
their days are numbered unless they stop destroying the environment and committing these crimes.
Its a proven fact that the vast majority of raptor killings are done on grouse moors and that its almost all grouse moors
Its a proven fact that muirburn causes huge ecological problems
Its a proven fact that the use of medicated grit causes ecological problems
its a proven fact that traps are routinely used illegally and are cruel.
Its a proven fact that drived bird shoooting is a very poor way of using the land if you want emplyment
there is no doubt at all that the disgusting criminal behavior of those running shoots and the wilful blindness of those that shoot disgusts the majority in this country
Your days of slaughtering wildlife for fun are coming to an end
this stuff is not my opinion - its proven fact. Open your eyes man. Unless people like you stop denying the criminality and help to get the criminals out of the industry then the industry will be over - in my lifetime.
@brads, what's not fact? The fact that raptors are persecuted or the fact that you think otherwise?
Cos in North Yorkshire It's a fact & TJ has already put links on that show reports of this. Swaledale & Nidderdale are rife with it.
Ewing the shooters friend and the major roadbliock to reform has been removed and the greens are now going to make the policy on this
Thankfully. The response i got from Ewing when i emailed him relating to this topic was mind blowing, including him sending me a link to a pro-muirburn YouTube video.
The SNP are now having discussions on the topic including the possibility of a ban of muirburn.
I have said this to you before Brads - I think you are a decent chap with a very differnt worldview to me - but you have a choice to make ( as do others in your position) continue to be a part of the problem by denying the problem exists and see your "sport" legislated out of existence or become part of the solution and you might be able to save a sustainable shooting industry.
I have no moral qualms with shooting beasts that end up in the pot. I am a meat eater and free range meat is probably a lessor evil
free range meat is probably a lessor evil
huh, most game birds and especially pheasant are are reared in pretty terrible conditions and are fairly described as "battery chickens in a party frock" Game birds are conveniently "non agricultural" (because the main purpose is sport not food production) so you don't need to follow any of the pesky welfare legislation that covers livestock
most game birds and especially pheasant are are reared in pretty terrible conditions and are fairly described as “battery chickens in a party frock”
I'm not trying to defend the "game industry" but... is that fairly described by someone who's never seen a battery chicken farm? Whilst pheasant are initially reared in fairly tightly packed conditions, if they were as bad as battery chickens they (1) would probably not survive long when released to the wild; (2) would probably not fly too well - which makes for shit sport; (3) won't look too nice when the quarry is brought back to the shooter.
I'm not sure why you think game birds are not livestock - they are whilst they are penned. They are only not livestock once released. Whether gamekeepers etc properly understand that may be a different question, but the law (and organisations like the RSPB) consider that they are.
Like TJ I have no issue with eating game per se and think its probably better than a £2.50 ASDA chicken, but I am acutely aware that mass production of pheasants and partridge for shooting, which are released on mass for a relatively short season can have an adverse effect on the native/local flora/fauna.
I have no moral qualms with shooting beasts that end up in the pot. I am a meat eater and free range meat is probably a lessor evil
As a total aside we should all be eating more venison - deer overpopulation is a massively damaging thing and demand is down due to restaurants being shut.
I’m not sure why you think game birds are not livestock – they are whilst they are penned.
They clearly are, it's just the appropriate legislation dealing with agricultural animal welfare doesn't apply.
would probably not survive long when released to the wild;
It often comes as a shock to folk I find, but pheasants, are about 22 weeks old when they're released for shooting. They neither don't need to be able to fly that well, or last that long in the scheme of things
think its probably better than a £2.50 ASDA chicken
The Asda chicken has probably been reared to better welfare standards, but their lives are shorter (about 6-9 weeks) so maybe it's time to re-think that assumption
New turn of events on my local grousemoor, they've got a tractor up there pulling a plough... wtaf? They've already done several square miles with lovely neat rows. Has anyone seen this before or got any idea why, my best guess is that its an alternative to muirburn?
Or is it the biggest backtracking ever and they're going to start growing tatties up there?
https://www.gwct.org.uk/blogs/news/2018/december/the-great-idea-of-ploughing-up-our-heather-moorlands-is-bizarre-our-letter-published-in-the-national/
Ive seen this tractor thing on grouse moors near Simons Seat in the Yorks Dales. Huge tractor just mashing up the moorland. No idea what for though.
most game birds and especially pheasant are are reared in pretty terrible conditions and are fairly described as “battery chickens in a party frock”
What evidence do you have of this? My dad was a gamekeeper and spent most of his working life rearing pheasants from day olds. Unless properly cared for the birds would not have survived in enough numbers to make it worthwhile. Pheasants are pretty skilled at suicide so a great deal of care and skill goes into rearing them. Partridges are even harder go rear, luckily mallard are indestructible. Once released into the woods they are still well cared for, making sure they have food and shelter, checking on them twice a day. My dad's gamekeeping friends all did this. The goal wasn't to breed cannon fodder but to give the birds a sporting chance. This meant planting new woods and hedging in suitable places to make use of the landscape. He eventually got tired of people who weren't happy unless they had shot more than last time/year or who didn't want go take a brace or two away with them. I think it would be a sad day if shooting was banned but I'd love to see a limit on the numbers that can be shot.
Ploughing up moorland is curious.
About the only precedents I can find are some bampot trying to block open access and trying to change the moor into pasture.
The second of which I'd expect to see a fair bit of (or at least attempting by legal and non legal means) if land is no longer used for hunting.
They clearly are, it’s just the appropriate legislation dealing with agricultural animal welfare doesn’t apply.
The EC directives (and UK implementations) don't apply - but they aren't really about welfare - they are about creating a level playing field. The Animal Welfare acts etc do apply, and there is a govt official code of practice (which if you don't follow it you are probably breaking the Animal Welfare Act) - as far as I can see the difference between pheasant and a 2.50 broiler chicken is that there are extra requirements for the pheasant in the code of practice, but no absolute max on numbers/density, just a statement about appropriate stocking density. The pheasant by its very nature is slow-growing so doesn't suffer from all the issues chickens do when grown as quickly as possible.
In any case though there's no suggestion that keeping pheasant in battery style conditions is either acceptable nor productive. I suspect like many people you've mixed up battery hens and broiler chicken production.
The Asda chicken has probably been reared to better welfare standards, but their lives are shorter (about 6-9 weeks) so maybe it’s time to re-think that assumption
Would I rather be a pheasant packed in a pen and reared with some stimulation, probably daylight, with low mortality in the shed for many weeks then gradually exposed to the outdoors and finally let free to take my chances with the foxes, cars and guns and a perhaps 1:10 chance of making it through the whole season OR would I rather be a chicken where at the first sign of being undersize, weak, ill I'll be euthanased then at 6 weeks electrocuted without ever seeing the outdoors...
I think rearing pheasants has changed since your dad's day. Last figures I could find puts the number at about 50 million (2018), and I think only about 40% actually get shot (based on crude bag counts, no official stats exist) most end up being predated, stave to death, die of disease or become wild, and says of nothing about the environmental damage that over production encourages. I think pheasants now account for something like 20-25% of the entire UK bird breeding population.
You can't really raise that many birds for as long as it takes under the sorts of welfare conditions that even the most cruelly kept chickens are reared for a considerably shorter time, and make any money from it. So they don't.
2008 report about welfare conditions (or lack thereof)
@Poly, if the pheasant breeders/hatcheries took any notice of socking density there wouldn't be the need to over produce in the numbers they do. It's costs under £15 to raise a pheasant from egg to release in 22weeks. Most of that is food. Vet care, record keeping, biosecurity are all sacrificed.
It's not pretty, and it's mostly out of sight.
I think pheasants now account for something like 20-25% of the entire UK bird breeding population.
Yup thats the best estimates although it does vary through the year since very few survive in the wild and hence they peak after the yearly release of targets and before they commit suicide in various ways. I was in the lake district a few weeks back and did like seeing the signs on the roads warning about pheasants. Perhaps if they had to cover the costs of the insurance claims they might think twice about releasing them.
That its an estimate is rather problematic and shows how lightly treated the "sport" is. Given pheasants feeding habits they are likely to have a rather negative impact on the overall ecosystem even if someone plants a couple of extra targets for them to hide in.
I am not opposed to hunting/shooting as such although personally I prefer to stick to using a camera to get the shots but increasingly the country "sports" do seem to be tilting it a tad to far in the "sportspersons" favour regardless of what needs killing to help those odds.
My parents used to live in an area where pheasants were reared. Every year the pheasants would be released and loads of them seen in the garden. None survived the winter. central Scotland
@Poly, if the pheasant breeders/hatcheries took any notice of socking density there wouldn’t be the need to over produce in the numbers they do. It’s costs under £15 to raise a pheasant from egg to release in 22weeks. Most of that is food. Vet care, record keeping, biosecurity are all sacrificed.
It’s not pretty, and it’s mostly out of sight.
I'm sure there are examples of bad practice around and it's only small estates I've had exposure to where things are perhaps not so bad. But like all farmers (which is what they are) usually they have a pretty financially optimised model - add more birds to the shed and they start getting sick/stop growing/are unable to fly/die/need vets, add fewer and you get less to shoot at (and potentially have to pay more to keep them warm). The same is true for those £2.50 chickens (which take more food to grow really quickly), have an abattoir, plucking, and packing cost, and shipping to the supermarket + any margin they are making... how much is the farmer getting? <£2 and he wouldn't be doing it if it wasn't profitable so his costs are probably <£1.50... so 1/10th of the cost of your pheasant for something that's kept for 1/4 of the time. Are you still sure the chicken has a life of luxury?
. Every year the pheasants would be released and loads of them seen in the garden. None survived the winter. central Scotland
At six weeks they are put in release pens in woods. Those pens are just temporary, you can't contain them once they can fly. They are then free to wander, hopefully by feeding them and creating a good environment they stay close. Shooting season finishes on the 1st of February so I doubt none survived the winter, my dad always had some leftover come the spring which would then breed.
I can only go on what I and they saw. release pens were a hundred yards away. Either that shoot was very efficient at killing them or they died of the winter because by feb none were seen
Are you still sure the chicken has a life of luxury?
On balance I get where you're coming from, who wouldn't want the chance to escape...But I think the "free range" aspect of pheasants is far from the actuality. I'm not saying don't eat it, but at least don't kid yourself about it's provenance.
Hopefully life will have settled down come spring, then I'll take you for a wander/bike ride and we can play spot the pheasant. You can bring the pies.
Salperton Park a mixed pheasant and partridge shoot is under investigation after a red kite was found shot on the estate with such serious injuries that it must have been shot where it was found.
this was in March when the country was in lockdown that the shooting happened. Of course the omerta means no one has been prosecuted
this is why we need vicarious liability and licensing
Just to show that at least some of the partidge and pheasant shoots are part of the criminal conspiracy
Steven lolz at that
There’s been a lot of Kites killed by poisoning & shooting in North Yorkshire over the years. Nidderdales like the Bermuda Triangle of the raptor world.
Sickening.
One of the things that I’ve never understood (ok, I have it’s vested interests at stake) is why the economic impact of the environmental damage caused by shooting estates has not been added to the potential economic impact of sustainable tourism in Scotland.
Already today sustainable tourism brings in far more money (1billion +) compared to the income from shooting estates (10s million). If you were to factor in the environmental cost I suspect we would see a deficit or net cost to Scotland’s economic well-being.
There’s been a lot of Kites killed by poisoning & shooting in North Yorkshire over the years.
That is sickening. I’ve been lucky enough to see red kites fly over my house and I’m on the edge of Aberdeen.
The thing is that there is a strong cultural thing going on which requires an particular educational approach. Someone I know is a very committed social activist but because they grew up in the country are convinced that raptors and badgers are vermin.
One of the things that I’ve never understood (ok, I have it’s vested interests at stake) is why the economic impact of the environmental damage caused by shooting estates has not been added to the potential economic impact of sustainable tourism in Scotland.
I suspect it’s probably hard to quantify an economic comparison, but there must be stuff out there like Knepp/the River Otter beavers to give an idea of sustainable tourism incomes?
If anyone would genuinely like to know more about how driven shooting benefits the rural economy and offsets the biodiversity loss caused by modern agriculture, I’d be happy to tell you via DM and illustrate with pictures.
I’d happily trade places with one of my pheasants or partridges over any other animal in the U.K. food chain. My job literally relies on them being happy enough with their environment not to want to wander off.
We rent our shoot from two land owners and keep over 100 acres of cover crops from ending up as intensive sheep, dairy forage or arable and have implemented a 12 year forestry plan to rescue over 700 acres of neglected and under-thinned woodland. Our winter feeding benefits over-wintering song birds who would otherwise starve in the barren fields of grass, winter cereals and over-flailed hedgerows.
We reduce the populations of common mesopredators like foxes and crows to less than half of the baseline population during the spring and summer- benefiting the hares and ground nesting birds and wildfowl.
We provide a vital rural community to over 100 different people during the shooting season and with coppicing and work parties and bbq’s and breakfasts- through the spring and summer as well.
The habitat that holds game is good for wildlife too- that’s the crux. Every acre preserved and managed for pheasants and partridges is an acre kept out of the clutches of farmers or commercial foresters. They wanted to put a spring cereal crop back to silage grass this year so we rented it off them instead and have planted it with wild bird mix. That’s a great analogy for the entire industry.
It’s not all good- poor practice at release sites can damage localised areas but that’s like saying a new straw barn , poly tunnel of veg or a beef shed damages native scrub- utterly meaningless in isolation 🤷🏻♂️
If you want some science around the issue, check out these guys on Twitter https://twitter.com/pec_exeter?s=21
Feeding my pheasants this morning, I saw probably 50 individual raptors including a hen sparrowhawk and a kestrel. We have upwards of 70 kites here during silaging as well as multiple pairs of resident buzzards and kites. Literally dozens of tawny owls, 6 pairs of barn owls, kestrels, sparrowhawks, long eared owls, little owls, visits from the local town’s pair of perigrine’s, Ravens and an occasional Merlin and Hobby passing through.
We factor in buzzard kills at around 150-200 poults and have buzzard and kites nesting IN release pens. With adequate habitat provision- losses are minimised.
Is there bad practice in the industry- yes of course but compared to “U.K. farming inc” it’s practically saintly.
I’ve spent enough time arguing with pedants on forums and Twitter over the years to not want to be arsed to openly engage with any of the inevitable “yeah buts” this post is bound to bring so don’t even bother. If you genuinely want to know more then message me.
Shooting leases aren’t that hard to come by.
I could get a team of people together tomorrow to invest in a new shoot- so why not do the same for “nature”?
If you think the industry is not delivering for wildlife, club together and rent yourself an estate. I’d love to see someone produce the net benefits we do without the cash generated by our harvest of game.
I’d love to be a wildlife ranger and do all the cool conservation work I get to do, without all the mundane and relentless game rearing and feeding. But the jobs and the wages aren’t there: because taking land out of food production for wildlife is cripplingly expensive.
Huge news coming out of Wales
Is a house of cards about to tumble on trail hunting?
Interesting piece on Farming Today this morning about wildlife crime increasing during lockdown - including a satellite tag for a golden eagle found wrapped in lead in a river!
https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m0011rz7
Some positive news about beavers too.
https://www.gov.scot/news/protecting-scotlands-beaver-population/
And I've got some literally across the A9 from our house now, the trees they are in are visible from our garden. I'm rather happy about that.
https://www.walkhighlands.co.uk/news/argaty-red-kites-granted-beaver-translocation-licence/
written summary in the Guardian
I will wait for the apologists to announce how its all mistaken.
Love that post from crosshair - the usual shooters totally bogus justifications. Yes partidge and pheasant shooting is not as damaging as driven grouse moors but nothing he says gets away from the proven killings of raptors on grouse moors, of the environmental damage grouse moors do, of the damage releasing non native birds does nor the illegality of the vast majority of the predator trapping
If you think the industry is not delivering for wildlife, club together and rent yourself an estate. I’d love to see someone produce the net benefits we do without the cash generated by our harvest of game.
Been done. Langholm moor.
there is zero conservation value in shooting birds. Its well known and well proven
Yes partidge and pheasant shooting is not as damaging as driven grouse moors
Probably. The massive increase in numbers really does need studying properly to see how it impacts invertebrates in particular.
Been done. Langholm moor.
Just one of many. RSPB reserves, the various Wildlife trusts, John Muir trust, NT and so on.
I can smell the reek from the muir burns in my house today. Huge burns on the Angus glens this last couple of dry days.
If you think the industry is not delivering for wildlife, club together and rent yourself an estate. I’d love to see someone produce the net benefits we do without the cash generated by our harvest of game
It's not either or though - it's taking a balanced approach that will vary from location to location.
I know a few estates around Loch Tay and Lyon who now take far more income from micro and medium hydro than they ever do from game shoots. Same again with holiday cottages for the hillwalkers or cyclists.
It also comes down to my really comments about how we value (and therefore financially support) the land. Do we value it only for game, and all our efforts and income derived from that. Or do we as a nation subsidise flood prevention by beavers, biodiversity and carbon capture of moors, recreation and climate adaptation in our forests, (etc). We should then support the landowner to make this happen financially and culturally.*
*Parkswatch make a good point recently about the Royal fam having degraded thier estate over generations, now taking state aid and claiming for 'greening' of a problem they caused and earned money out of...but in my view the long game and overall benefits outweigh the frustration of funding that change.
There's some excellent examples of how to that have been around for many years.
Edit: case study: Kilmalieu in Ardgour. Estate shooting rights £40k per annum rent. Hydro schemes x2 £400k per annum, outdoor centre turnover £340k per annum and 6 staff, holiday cottages £35k and a part time job. Even if the shooting rights rent is quadrupled in income (it's not), it only employs one part time lead factor and one part time ghillie, a few seasonal for the cull.
Probably. The massive increase in numbers really does need studying properly to see how it impacts invertebrates in particular.
No idea about this but the point about woodland / windbreaks instead of intensive agriculture is a real one. Its the only fair point in that otherwise pure nonsense post
I do believe its important to keep an eye on the nuances and the secondary effects. Not all shooting is the same
its the driven grouse moors that cause the real ecological damage and where all the raptors are killed and where all the illegal trapping of predators occurs
And lets just be clear - illegal killing of raptors is widespread on driven grouse moors, is in every area where there are grouse moors and is accepted practice in the industry.
Spent some time in Swaledale - it was very noticeable the complete lack of bird life of any variety, particularly the rabbit carcasses everywhere because of the lack of predators ‘ carrion feeders. It was an ecological desert.
I’m now lucky enough to live next to a nature reserve on Mull and there is no local bird shooting - the number of raptor/carrion species I can spot from my window is remarkable having moved from Speyside. We have Sparrowhawks, Kestrel and Buzzards, a pair of noisy Ravens nests in the woods, plus Hooded and Carrion Crows. A big factor are the eagles on the island which is a big tourism draw for everyone. Not just a few tweed clad, Range Rover drivers who drive like tossers on tiny roads, will quite happily shoot over someone’s house raining lead shot on the tiles, retire for a liquid lunch and come back ruddy-faced and do it again in the afternoon.
Eagles and otters on Mull bring an estimated 5 million a year onto the island in wildlife tourism - its actually reaching a point where its almost unsustainable the numbers of folk trying to see otters and disturbing them!
It is fabulous to see all the eagles tho - recently spent 3 days on the island and saw 9 eagles without even looking for them
compare that to the pair of golden eagles I saw in the angus glens. they were killed a couple of months later
its the driven grouse moors that cause the real ecological damage
Whilst they do cause massive ecological damage I think fundamentally it comes down to how large and aggressive any shoot is run which can also apply to some pheasant shoots. Its a massive tilting off the ecosystem.
A small family/group shoot could well be a benefit but once they get commercial and so need to start making profits then I suspect the benefits are soon outweighed.
where all the raptors are killed and where all the illegal trapping of predators occurs
Sadly not true. Whilst they are definitely high on the list of "mysterious disappearances" its not exactly unknown on the pheasant shoots either. Its less visible though since the raptors are less likely to be tagged compared to the harriers and eagles and so you dont have the "unexpected failure" map giving the game away.
Fair enough dissonance - I really was just trying to get away from " all shooting baaaad" and to remember nuance with this
Where my parents used to live was a small pheasant shoot. they planted and maintained tree cover.
Deer need to be culled.
Driven grouse moors are indefensible
. Its not all purely black and white
I'm still trying to make sense of this, having been a casual birdwatcher all my life and never having seen 50 raptors in a week, never mind a morning:
Feeding my pheasants this morning, I saw probably 50 individual raptors including a hen sparrowhawk and a kestrel.
So, not counting kestrels or sparrowhawks we have 48 more raptors, but he rules out:
We have upwards of 70 kites here during silaging as well as multiple pairs of resident buzzards and kites. Literally dozens of tawny owls, 6 pairs of barn owls, kestrels, sparrowhawks, long eared owls, little owls, visits from the local town’s pair of perigrine’s, Ravens and an occasional Merlin and Hobby passing through.
What were these other 48 raptors? Ospreys? 😀
Deer need to be culled.
Deer are also a tricky case. Since some estates deliberately do their best to boost the numbers beyond the natural carrying capability in order to ensure that their clients get to shoot something.
Plus there is the rabid opposition to reintroducing natural predators which would also help control their numbers.
That twitter link from Crosshair which is allegedly "science"
The posts are made by a Jo Madden, apparently linked in some way to Exeter University. Can anyone prove that's a real link, google was throwing up a Joanne/Joah Madden in the psychology department.
The posts are made by a Jo Madden, apparently linked in some way to Exeter University. Can anyone prove that’s a real link, google was throwing up a Joanne/Joah Madden in the psychology department.
"Joah Madden is an Associate Professor in the School of Psychology, working in the Centre for Research in Animal Behaviour" from here: Dr Joah Madden
Cheers Doug, that looks more credible. His website looks like it was built by me whilst drunk.
Good news from the National Trust
I’ve been lucky enough to see red kites fly over my house and I’m on the edge of Aberdeen.
Walking down my road last week there was a red kite circling over the houses just down from where I live. My late g/f used to get quite excited if she saw it (almost certainly the same bird) flying over the gardens across the road from me.
They’re still not very common around these parts yet, it’s taken them some time to spread across from Berkshire and Oxfordshire where they were part of the reintroduction, and native birds from Wales are now spreading across the Severn because there’s so many of them over there now. I’ve seen one around Bath, and around the Avebury area.
Ravens are more common, I regularly see them around where I work in Westbury, and there’s a lot of open countryside around the estate, and I’ve seen a kite around there as well.
There’s a pair of Peregrines about too, haven’t seen them lately, but I’m pretty sure they’re about, judging by the carcasses they’ve left in the storage area I look after - not foxes, I’d see them about and we have a palisade security fence all round, and one kill took place in daylight, I think while I was having my lunch, because the dead bird was lying in the open between two rows of cars where I’d been earlier, missing it’s head, and with fresh blood around it.
The next day the remains were left on the roof of a car, a few bones and feathers!
Some really good news - Woodland Trust expanding hugely the area they own at Sheildaig. I am rather jealous of my old boss who is leading this project, interesting times. Note the comments about access for walkers and similar tourism.
I would like to know how much the Sheildaig Sea Eagle, the otters, the goats and more are worth in attracting tourism to the area... Perhaps we may see a reforested Torridon?
https://www.ukhillwalking.com/news/2021/12/thinking_big_-_woodland_trust_buy_highland_estate-72960
Compare: Ben Sheildaig estate managed without too many deer or sheep
With most of Couldoran Estate they just bought:
Superb, it genuinely took a double take (on my phone) for me to realise that first photo wasnt an over romanticized painting.
Can't see first picture, got a link?
Wildlife tourism can be worth a lot. I have heard 5 million for Mull. Shooting is not a big money earner.
Wildlife tourism can be worth a lot.
Agreed. And the clearer these financial benefits are, the more folk are tempted to make a change.
What it doesn't address are the cultural issues around land ownership and land management. That may be harder to challenge.
Interesting point about red deer, we have a small herd that lives on the nature reserve next to us - they’re starting to spend more time hanging around the house, raiding the bird feeders and nibbling the plants. Talking to a local and the plunge in the price of venison means there’s no interest in shooting them - price dropped to 90p/kilo for a carcass and has only back up to £1.20 - the effort of getting up into the hill to drag back a carcass doesn’t make it worth it for the shooters. I hope for the deer’s sake we don’t have too hard a winter as it’s bad enough to walk into the kitchen in the morning and have 12 pairs of eyes staring back waiting for the carrots…
Shooting is not a big money earner.
Please , at least try to stay realistic.
Shooting is a huge money earner and you know it.
Shooting is a huge money earner and you know it.
It is a money earner.
I think though we're starting to see other earning possibilities, possibly ones which change how land is valued and monetised. We need to change who owns the land or/and how we support those landowners with a just transition to new ways of earning and valuing land.
I went to go look at the figures on income.
Now I don't think this is "either or", we can have these incomes along side each other.
I also note reports around how this income could change, notably challenging low salaries in the shooting estates.
I'm struggling to find information on the power generation income compared to wildlife tourism or shooting income.
I also note that all the reports I find written by the shooting industry conflate Scottish income and UK wide tax/income/statistics, and seem to get published in papers with rounded up figures that include agricultural subsidies, cottage rentals which are not related to the shooting etc - anything to suggest the industry is bigger than it is.
Now I don’t think this is “either or”, we can have these incomes along side each other.
Pretty much where I'm at.
Its not that hunting cant exist, it just needs to change to one where it doesnt turn the landscape into a single purpose environment. As is the case for many landscapes where hunting is prevalent around world.
On that topic, are there many other examples where large areas are managed so extensively in order to maximize the numbers of just 1 or 2 species for hunting?
That figure from Nature Scot for Field Sports is dramatically different to what Ive seen punted out by Scottish Hunting bodies.
Shooting generates some cash for sure, though the actual figures are over inflated. But it also does not generate anything like the opportunities that a green tourist economy would. Certainly there is space for hunting, shooting, fishing. But the days of the big estates with mono culture land use are over.
On that topic, are there many other examples where large areas are managed so extensively in order to maximize the numbers of just 1 or 2 species for hunting?
In the UK, see most of our upland that is deer, grouse and sheep orientated.
I am sure there must be some elsewhere in the world.
Living in a quite shooting centric part of the world I see very little impact on the local economy. Sure there a few people employed by the estates but as a percentage of the population, it's tiny. Far far more employed in broader tourism. Through work I know a few people from families who own shooting estates. From the amount of diversifying they are doing on their estates it can't be all that. Like pretty much every farmer I've ever known they are keen to tell you how tough it is to make a living but I am aware that not all farmers are necessarily being entirely realistic with those claims so I assume a bit of skepticism is needed with those claims from the estate owners too.
Also through work I spend quite a bit of time talking to Germans who are into shooting in Germany. Getting a licence there seems to be a big deal in terms of theoretical and practical exams. The shooting also seems to be worlds apart from what I witness with the pheasant and grouse shooting I see here. UK deer stalking I guess is closer. I've no idea if German hunting is a profitable enterprise for the land owners mind. I could imagine a rewilded Scotland giving German style hunting options if you wanted that as part of the mix.
Broadly, I can't deny that in every fibre of my being I want to see the current state here to change - ethically, environmentally, aesthetically. I think I'm probably in the majority in that view, even here in the heart of hunter part of the uk. But the majority don't hold much influence on this. The land owners seem more financially driven than by any other issue - a no brainer financial case for change has to be made to change their priorities if anything is going to change in my lifetime.
This article published today, though focused on sheep grazing management, is pretty interesting in terms of how the land changes over time if they're excluded, follows on from the pics above: https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2021/dec/17/graze-anatomy-fencing-fewer-sheep-richer-wildlife--aoe
^ good evidence for how much sheep and deer affect upland areas.
I observe the Ben Lawers photos are old(ish), likely a decade ago, as I have helped NTS via DofE groups to plant many thousands more trees up there, and the older established areas are becoming a seed source for the non-fenced areas now.
In the UK, see most of our upland that is deer, grouse and sheep orientated.
I am sure there must be some elsewhere in the world.
Sorry Matt, it was specifically elsewhere in the world I was querying.
Some more interesting reading.
Direct comparison between Norway and Scotland.
Huge difference, and really does blow a hole in the argument that grouse moor and deer forests in Scotland are managed for wildlife and diversity.
An interesting link buried in this about red deer too - basically ours in Scotland are small and impoverished it seems..
Very true Matt - the scottish red deer are generally in poor condition - too many of them on the land leads to undernourishment and smaller deer survive better - along with the Victorians hunting out the big stags. result our deer are small. malnourished and not healthy
Good read, thanks Matt.
All forms of hunting should be banned, INCLUDING FISHING(as a 'sport')
For starters we dont need to hunt, our food is prepared for us, and then there's the humanitarian aspect. Can we really call ourselves civilized when the death of some creature that died in fear and alarm is the end goal.
^ eh?
dyna ti - whats the moral difference between killing your own food ( hunting) and getting someone else to do it ( shopping)?
We kill in a humane manner minimizing suffering. That is the goal, not to cause suffering which is the complete opposite to hunting where the animal doesnt meet a quick clean end.
I thought that was obvious.
@Matt 🙄
Hunting can be a quick end - at least as quick as an abattoir and you have to also factor in free range v factory farmed. there really is no difference morally between hunting for the pot and eating meat from supermarkets. Hunting not for the pot ie the killings of raptors and hares etc is indefensible
Hunting not for the pot ie the killings of raptors and hares etc is indefensible
I agree with you here yes.
there really is no difference morally between hunting for the pot and eating meat from supermarkets.
I don't really agree with you here.
Meat is an intricate part of the human diet and has been since the dawn of time. While we take steps to minimize suffering. It is only those who choose a non meat lifestyle that claim it's morality in eating meat at all. They try to set themselves on a higher moral ground, but where none exists.
I don't think we can use a morality argument against eating meat, only about how it is slaughtered.
What is the moral difference? Have you ever been in an abattoir? Seen animals killed for food? there really is no moral differnce that I can see between factory farmed meat that goes thru an abbotoir to be killed and a deer shot for food out in the hills.
Have you ever been in an abattoir? Seen animals killed for food?
More importantly, have you ?.
Or do you just base your thoughts on the matter from what you think or want to believe actually goes on.
Nobody is claiming its not a horrific environment, dealing with death, but the point at hand is on killing without cruelty, not really whether you agree with it or not.
yes I have. Killing without cruelty - there is no real difference in the cruelty in an abattoir ( and the transport to it) or on the moorsides IMO
I eat meat but I have no illusions that meat is animals and they are killed for food nor have I any illusions about factory farming or hunting.
When I ate meat I killed it myself on moral grounds because I had seen how farmed animals were treated.
I wasn’t perfect at it but managed a good few years without buying meat. Any that I did I was very choosy about.
Hunting and eating it is very much the moral high ground.