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Looks like pesticides..
Hopefully they catch whoever laced the hare and they get properly punished and sacked.
No excuse for this at all.
When have anglers ever done anything like that?
Hopefully they catch whoever laced the hare and they get properly punished and sacked.
No excuse for this at all.
if the estates stopped protecting the criminals we might
We might what ?
The problem is passing these guys onto other places to placate the issuing of grants.
i.e "we've binned him" so don't punish us, but in reality he's passed to a mates estate "cause he's a good keeper"
We might be able to catch them if the estate owners and managers where not a part of it.
Not a chance.
I hate this happening, but poisoning that happens miles from anywhere at any time of day or night, carried out by anyone with half a brain, is never getting proved or pinned on anyone.
Anyone caught for this type of thing is either stupid, grassed up, or talks too much (stupid)
Thats because its condoned and the people are protected by the estates.
hence your " grassed up"
You surely mean the law abiding citizens should report what they know to the police? the fact that no one ever does shows that no one on the estates is a law abiding citizen.
why not have a three strikes (cases of poisoning) and you're out (license suspended for six months) rule? Might concentrate the mind somewhat? Followed by next three strikes and license suspended for a year and so on......
How about one strike? This is a criminal conspiracy and needs to be treated as such.
How would 'positive enforcement' work I wonder?
e.g. if you DON'T have a certain population of certain species appropriate to your estate habitat then you get a warning or something?
I know it's unreasonable to expect thriving populations of rarer species on every estate, but when I last rode through the Lammermuirs for instance it was striking that we didn't even see a single buzzard, which I thought would be a useful 'marker' species to demonstrate a lack of persecution on the estates.
How about one strike? This is a criminal conspiracy and needs to be treated as such.
Going by that argument, I as someone who'd quite happily see Grouse shooting gone could go and sacrifice a bird, and that estate loses it's licence.
That's never gonna fly (ahem)
How would ‘positive enforcement’ work I wonder?
e.g. if you DON’T have a certain population of certain species appropriate to your estate habitat then you get a warning or something?
I know it’s unreasonable to expect thriving populations of rarer species on every estate, but when I last rode through the Lammermuirs for instance it was striking that we didn’t even see a single buzzard, which I thought would be a useful ‘marker’ species to demonstrate a lack of persecution on the estates.
I guess the same way that most licensing works. The license holder has to demonstrate that they have all the right procedures / practices / infrastructure training etc in place but they can also be held accountable for anything that's going wrong unless they can demonstrate they've done everything they can. Sort of coming it from both sides. An estate that was a barren wasteland would need to prove that they were doing everything right, rather than looking to convict individual employees to prove wrongdoing.
Your local pub / taxi company / takeaway has to demonstrate they're fit to hold a license and then get pulled up if there are adverse reports against them. It's not beyond the wit of people to sort this out. The hunting/shooting/fishing brigade are less regulated than your local chippy and they'd like it to stay that way.
I don't think more regulation on its own solves a cultural issue, deeply embedded in local heritage (even if only a few short generations), issues of employment, land ownership and identity.
I do wonder if a much more reward for positive and proactive should be investigated. It is going to take a lot of effort to answer concerns in a positive, employment and income generating way, for this to start to change. Let's be honest, these estates are businesses. The moment you get paid a 'golden eagle is resident bonus', a 'big new walking path and bothy provided' grant, a 'salmon increased last tear' research grant, a 'wildlife manager and tour guide' stipend payment or a 'trainee re-wilding forest manager' apprenticeship, some of the more forward looking estates will engage and take up the offer. Particularly if the money is guaranteed somehow for 10 years or so and is better than what they earn currently.
None of this is thought through properly on my part - it is more ideas to suggest a positive engagement rather than a 'them and us' situation. Bad apples are bad apples - and we will struggle to root them all out without much help from the whole 'industry' around grouse moors and deer forests.
You surely mean the law abiding citizens should report what they know to the police? the fact that no one ever does shows that no one on the estates is a law abiding citizen.
By your logic everyone who works in a bad care home is equally culpable.
If someone is doing something they shouldn't then the guy in the other department is equally guilty.
That's bad logic, that shouldn't even need pointing out.
I do wonder if a much more reward for positive and proactive should be investigated. It is going to take a lot of effort to answer concerns in a positive, employment and income generating way, for this to start to change. Let’s be honest, these estates are businesses. The moment you get paid a ‘golden eagle is resident bonus’, a ‘big new walking path and bothy provided’ grant, a ‘salmon increased last tear’ research grant, a ‘wildlife manager and tour guide’ stipend payment or a ‘trainee re-wilding forest manager’ apprenticeship, some of the more forward looking estates will engage and take up the offer. Particularly if the money is guaranteed somehow for 10 years or so and is better than what they earn currently.
I like these suggestions, perhaps also some form of government assistance in marketing a new age of hunting estate management, rather than "blasted wilderness conveyor belt of deer/grouse" start pitching it as "highland wilderness experience hunting in truly wild surroundings etc. with the chance of spotting rare and indigenous wildlife etc". Would probably result in a reduced bag for the hunters, would fewer management practices just reduce the number of grouse each hunter takes home, or is there a risk of fruitless days on the moor and frustrated punters demanding money back?
13th. Mar lodge is an interesting case. IIRC its now in public hands of some sort but was sold with covenants that it has to remain a hunting shooting estate. they have moved to " walk up" shooting where bags are a few rather than driven shooting where bags are huge. If you want shooting to remain part of scotland then its a good model perhaps. Rather than put subsidy into the hands of large landowners tho I would prefer that money to be used to bring the land back into public ownership but the good landowners I have no issue with.
The land needs a use other than recreation or we turn the highlands into a theme park. Perhaps some of that could be wildlife management / land management.
Squirrelking - if they do not speak out when they know raptors are routinely killed then they are part of the criminal conspiracy - same as it would be in a care home. Remember this is not "one bad apple" nor is it "isolated cases" this is a criminal conspiracy covering much of the grouse estates.
Not reporting bad practices or worse in a care home would be an appalling dereliction of duty.
Indeed - and subject to licensing and criminal implications
We have a government that isn't interested in the scale of land reform required. They parked council/land value taxation several years ago despite promises to reform it. Their gardening wing has taken their eye off the ball too, focussing 8nstead on gender politics and effectively sidelining their most valuable asset in this regard because, you know, feelz over-rules science and discussion can't be allowed.
@scotroutes what the actual **** has this got to do with gender politics? You really have a chip on your shoulder about trans folk don't you?
I mention it due to the link to Andy Wightman does he have the same chip or do we share it?
Have we done this latest one yet? apologies if so.
Just in case anyone is still not convinced that this is a widespread criminal conspiracy note the list of all persecutions known to have happened in the Cairngorms national park
Note carbofuran is banned and has been for decades - its only use is to poison raptors and its illegal to hold.
2002
Feb: 2 x poisoned buzzards (Carbofuran) + rabbit bait. Tomintoul (No prosecution)
Mar: 2 x poisoned buzzards (Carbofuran) + 2 rabbit baits. Cromdale (No prosecution)
2003
Apr: 3 x poisoned buzzards (Carbofuran) + 2 grey partridge baits. Kingussie (No prosecution)
Jun: Attempted shooting of a hen harrier. Crannoch (Successful prosecution)
2004
May: 1 x poisoned buzzard (Carbofuran). Cuaich (No prosecution)
Nov: 1 x poisoned red kite (Carbofuran). Cromdale (No prosecution)
Dec: 1 x poisoned buzzard (Carbofuran). Cromdale (No prosecution)
2005
Feb: 1 x poisoned buzzard (Carbofuran). Cromdale (No prosecution)
Feb: 1 x poisoned buzzard (Carbofuran). Cromdale (No prosecution)
Mar: 3 x poisoned buzzards, 1 x poisoned raven (Carbofuran). Crathie (No prosecution)
2006
Jan: 1 x poisoned raven (Carbofuran). Dulnain Bridge (No prosecution)
May: 1 x poisoned raven (Mevinphos). Grantown-on-Spey (No prosecution)
May: 1 x poisoned golden eagle (Carbofuran). Morven [corbett] (No prosecution)
May: 1 x poisoned raven + 1 x poisoned common gull (Aldicarb) + egg bait. Glenbuchat (No prosecution)
May: egg bait (Aldicarb). Glenbuchat, Strathdon (No prosecution)
Jun: 1 x poisoned golden eagle (Carbofuran). Glenfeshie (No prosecution)
2007
Jan: 1 x poisoned red kite (Carbofuran). Glenshee (No prosecution)
Apr: Illegally set spring trap. Grantown-on-Spey (No prosecution)
May: Pole trap. Grantown-on-Spey (No prosecution)
May: 1 x poisoned red kite (Carbofuran). Tomintoul (No prosecution)
May: Illegally set spring trap. Grantown-on-Spey (No prosecution)
Jun: 1 x poisoned buzzard (Carbofuran) + rabbit & hare baits. Grantown-on-Spey (No prosecution)
Jun: 1 x poisoned buzzard (Carbofuran) + rabbit bait. Grantown-on-Spey (No prosecution)
Jul: 1 x poisoned raven (Carbofuran). Ballater (No prosecution)
Sep: 1 x shot buzzard. Newtonmore (No prosecution)
Sep: 1 x shot buzzard. Grantown-on-Spey (No prosecution)
Dec: 1 x poisoned buzzard (Alphachloralose). Grantown-on-Spey (No prosecution)
Dec: 1 x poisoned buzzard (Carbofuran) + rabbit bait. Grantown-on-Spey (No prosecution)
2008
Jan: 1 x poisoned buzzard (Alphachloralose). Nr Grantown-on-Spey (No prosecution)
Mar: 1 x poisoned buzzard (Carbofuran). Nr Grantown-on-Spey (No prosecution)
Dec: 1 x poisoned buzzard (Alphachloralose). Nr Grantown-on-Spey (No prosecution)
2009
May: 2 x poisoned ravens (Mevinphos). Delnabo (No prosecution)
Jun: rabbit bait (Mevinphos). nr Tomintoul (No prosecution)
Jun: 1 x shot buzzard. Nr Strathdon (No prosecution)
Jun: 1 x illegal crow trap. Nr Tomintoul (No prosecution)
2010
Apr: Pole trap. Nr Dalwhinnie (No prosecution)
Jun: 1 x pole-trapped goshawk. Nr Dalwhinnie (No prosecution)
Jun: Illegally set spring trap on tree stump. Nr Dalwhinnie (No prosecution)
Sep: 2 x poisoned buzzards (Carbofuran) + rabbit bait. Glenlochy (No prosecution)
Oct: 2 x poisoned buzzards (Carbofuran) + rabbit bait. Nr Boat of Garten (No prosecution)
2011
Jan: 1 x shot buzzard. Nr Bridge of Brown (No prosecution)
Mar: 1 x poisoned golden eagle (Carbofuran). Glenbuchat (No prosecution)
Apr: 1 x poisoned buzzard (Carbofuran & Aldicarb). Nr Bridge of Brown (No prosecution)
May: 1 x poisoned buzzard (Carbofuran) + rabbit bait. Glenbuchat, Strathdon (No prosecution)
May: 1 x shot short-eared owl, found stuffed under rock. Glenbuchat, Strathdon (No prosecution)
Jun: 1 x shot peregrine. Pass of Ballater (No prosecution)
Aug: grouse bait (Aldicarb). Glenlochy (No prosecution)
Sep: Satellite-tagged golden eagle ‘disappears’. Nr Strathdon
Nov: Satellite-tagged golden eagle ‘disappears’. Nr Strathdon
2012
Apr: 1 x shot short-eared owl. Nr Grantown-on-Spey (No prosecution)
Apr: Peregrine nest site burnt out. Glenshee (No prosecution)
May: Buzzard nest shot out. Nr Ballater (No prosecution)
2013
Jan: White-tailed eagle nest tree felled. Invermark (No prosecution)
May: 1 x shot hen harrier. Glen Gairn (No prosecution)
May: Satellite-tagged golden eagle ‘disappears’. Glenbuchat, Strathdon
2014
Apr: Satellite-tagged white-tailed eagle ‘disappears’. Glenbuchat, Strathdon
May: Armed masked men shoot out a goshawk nest. Glen Nochty, Nr Strathdon (No prosecution)
2015
Sep: Satellite-tagged hen harrier ‘Lad’ found dead, suspected shot. Newtonmore (No prosecution)
2016
May: 1 x shot goshawk. Strathdon (No prosecution)
Jun: Illegally set spring traps. Invercauld (No prosecution)
Aug: Satellite-tagged hen harrier ‘Brian’ ‘disappears’. Kingussie
2017
Mar: Satellite-tagged golden eagle #338 ‘disappears’. Glenbuchat, Strathdon
Aug: Satellite-tagged hen harrier ‘Calluna’ ‘disappears’. Ballater
2018
May: Satellite-tagged white-tailed eagle Blue T ‘disappears’. Ballater
Aug: Satellite-tagged hen harrier ‘Athena’ ‘disappears’. Nr Grantown on Spey
Aug: Satellite-tagged hen harrier ‘Margot’ ‘disappears’. Nr Strathdon
Sept: Satellite-tagged hen harrier ‘Stelmaria’ ‘disappears’. Ballater
2019
April: Satellite-tagged hen harrier ‘Marci’ ‘disappears’. Nr Strathdon
April: Four geese poisoned and Carbofuran bait found on an estate nr Kingussie (no prosecution)
August: Golden eagle photographed with a spring trap dangling from its foot, nr Crathie, Deeside
September: Satellite-tagged hen harrier Wildland 1 ‘disappears’ on a grouse moor nr Dalnaspidal
September: Satellite-tagged hen harrier Wildland 2 ‘disappears’ on a grouse moor at Invercauld
2020
April: Satellite-tagged hen harrier Hoolie ‘disappears’ on grouse moor nr Newtonmore
April: Satellite-tagged hen harrier Marlin ‘disappears’ on grouse moor nr Strathdon
April: Satellite-tagged white-tailed eagle found illegally poisoned on grouse moor in Strathdon.
2021
March: Poisoned golden eagle found on Invercauld Estate.
TJ, where was Chris Packham around the time of those killings?
Makes you think....
That there statement from Invercauld is bare faced cover-up.
"It's on our land, in an area we manage regularly, near to our access. But not ours governor."
I came across some Larsen traps the other day - these are live bird traps where a live bird is trapped inside and used as a lure to catch other birds. One had a carrion crow and the other a magpie. I didn't even know these were legal in the UK - had to Google it.
I was tempted to trash them, but getting there and back was on a track past a building owned by the estate with a camera, they'd know who I was.
There are thousands of crows here - plus rooks, jackdaws and ravens too but funnily enough no magpies - all to protect hundreds of captive bred pheasants and partridge. There are only a few red grouse and ptarmigan up on the moors as they've all been blasted to oblivion.
I did see a hen harrier a couple of times a month or so ago but not seen it again.
I did see a hen harrier a couple of times a month or so ago but not seen it again.
I saw one on Dava Moor near Lochindorb a couple of weeks ago,
Invercauld has an ignominious 3 appearances on that list
more greens at Holyrood should help this
I came across some Larsen traps the other day
Legal and licensed. Also very discriminate so easy to target only the pest species.
On some places crow traps are a real necessity as crows cause huge damage to silage stores.
It's basically a bird cage that allows you to dispatch crows quickly and in large numbers.
Best leave them alone as cows need fed, and silage waste costs a fortune to replace / buy in.
It would be interesting to see what killed the eagle at Invercauld as it was found next to a carcass so whatever it was must have been instant acting.
As far as I'm aware most modern pesticides don't kill instantly but I'm happy to be corrected.
Poor old Phil the greek fought for years to have poisonous pesticides banned. The same estates proven to have poisoned BoP would have fawned all over him at their shoots as well.
Really interesting listen on Radio Scotland Out of Doors this morning
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m000vwyx
In part one, Helen Needham goes on a personal pilgrimage to find the source of the River Dee close to the top of Braeriach, with a little help from Nan Shepherd. And in part two, Mark Stephen and Euan McIlwraith visit the National Trust for Scotland's Mar Lodge Estate in Upper Deeside where they meet ecologist, Andrew Painting. Andrew has written about the estate in his book 'Regeneration - The Rescue of a Wild Land' and describes how their unique approach to land management could offer an example to other estates, encompassing both conservation and sporting interests.
Cheers Matt, his book looks interesting and worth a punt on the Kindle
A borders hunt manager has been let off Scot free despite video evidence of wrong doing. Judge said legislation was just to complicated.
Edit "The trial at Jedburgh Sheriff Court lasted two days before the residing sheriff delivered a not guilty verdict and also a stinging rebuke of the Protection of Wild Mammals (Scotland) Act 2002 which he described as "difficult to interpret."
And therein lies the problem.
That's actually a really interesting move that the Cairngorms partnership folk and Invercauld have parted company.
Perhaps bad apples are tainting the rest and they don't like it...
So why are the larsen traps set on the edge of the grousemoor, miles from the nearest silage store?
So why are the larsen traps set on the edge of the grousemoor, miles from the nearest silage store?
Excellent question
That Cairngorms partnership statement is really interesting and hopefully a reflection of their good intentions.
On some places crow traps are a real necessity as crows cause huge damage to silage stores.
You would need hundreds of the traps to have any meaningful impact on the local corvid population. The problem is, there's a complete lack of natural predators. Can you imagine the impact that a few raptors and pine martens would have on the population?
But no, anything that 'threatens' the population of captive bred pheasants and partridge so a few toffs can turn up in their Range Rovers to blast their heads off in the name of "conservation" is just what the countryside needs.
So why are the larsen traps set on the edge of the grousemoor, miles from the nearest silage store?
I see these all over the place. Our local ones are around the pheasant woods and grouse moor edges. All are out of sight, I suspect many folk will not realise their use.
Do remember that Corvids can be awful to lambs - again I saw them near lambing fields around Loch Tay.
Most of them though are set around grouse moor areas in my experience, I would hazard a guess on the justification that corvids would attack grouse chicks? See below for the general licenses though. Interestingly grouse is not on the list of wild birds that can be protected. https://www.nature.scot/general-licences-birds-2021
I note that all larsen traps have to be registered - does this have a grid reference? If so, it would be interesting to compare licensed locations and hidden ones I only see as a hillwalker, hidden off the beaten track...
Overall information
2 Hen Harriers 'Disappeared' near me, Geltsdale.
You would need hundreds of the traps to have any meaningful impact on the local corvid population
Last one I ran was on a farm yard. 1000 birds a week. That was one trap, about 3 meters square and 2 meters high. It has a meaningful impact.
Crow traps are large. Larsen traps are smaller and are aimed at magpies mainly.
Not all are on farm yards cause sheep are on hills and they are used for lamb protection as well.
As I've said before, pest control is required. Anyone saying otherwise doesn't really know what they are talking about.
Larsen and crow traps are pest control.
Raptors are "pest" control.
Larsen and crow traps are pest control.
Indeed they are.
But as scotroutes says, we don't all agree on the definition of pest and the species targeted.
Raptors are “pest” control.
You know that, I know that, every sensible person knows that.
Unfortunately sense doesn't come into it, just ££££££££'s.
Larsen and crow traps are pest control.
They are cruel and barbaric and should be banned - and as you should well know Brads routinely used to trap raptors. Its pretense they are for corvids in many cases
Wrong on all counts there I'm afraid.
Not cruel and not barbaric ! They simply hold live birds till you dispatch them.
In the time I ran one it only ever held crows, no raptor will go near a trap with a corvid call bird in it.
Raptors are “pest” control.
Well not really but strangely they can be and a license to control them can be issued by the Scottish Govt.
You won't ever get me to defend illegal killing of them though. Never have, never will.
Brads - you do however deny the extent. 1/3 of ALL scottish raptors will be killed on a grouse moor prematurely. Its proven
You also deny the cruelty of a larsen trap and again its well proven they have been used to kill raptors routinely Its on video FFS
You need to open your eyes to what is going on.
In good news Fergus Ewing is gone. No more to the grouse moor owners have a paid "friend" in government. He has been a block on talking effective action against the criminal conspiracy of raptor persecution
Mairi Gougeon, another relative newcomer, was promoted from public health to become secretary for rural affairs and islands. Gougeon had won plaudits from environmentalists in a previous role as rural affairs minister. She replaced Fergus Ewing, a veteran minister seen by his critics as a conservative force who resisted reforms including grouse moor licensing. Ewing was sacked by Sturgeon along with Fiona Hyslop, another veteran cabinet minister.
I get it, I really do.(Although no one has mentioned wind turbines yet) The people who kill raptors are a disgrace to shooting and need rooted out.
But cruel and barbaric are pretty specific. If a bird is caught in one it's easily killed humanely. You can kill a raptor humanely ! illegally but still humane. The traps are not an issue, wrong use of them might be.
Larson traps aren't for raptors, crow traps not in use should have the doors open. Neither are cruel.
They are not there for pretence either, they are on hills for sheep protection (lambs) and closer to farms mainly for damage limitation (silage etc)
In all my years I've never come across anyone using this type of trap for buzzards etc.
you've mentioned wind turbines, can you elaborate?
Larsen traps are cruel. The caught bird will be in a state of panic and attempting to get out until its exhausted. Yes a good worker will be checking them regularly and dispatching birds humanely but its incontrovertible they are cruel simply because they hare held for so long in them. OK not as bad as pole traps which are illegal and still routinely set all over the grouse moors
This is a corvid - as you know a highly intelligent and social bird held in one for 36 hours. Distressing to some viewers
Man convicted ( as you know convictions are very rare only a tiny % of the criminals) for killing a goshawk caught in a larsen trap. there is video of it
https://www.copfs.gov.uk/media-site-news-from-copfs/954-aberdeen-gamekeeper-jailed-for-killing-goshawk
Plenty of other evidence of larsen traps with live birds as bait to trap raptors.
I know you are a decent bloke with a love of scotland but please stop being willfully blind to the extent of this. Guys like you need to join with the conservationists - if for nothing else to try to preserve any hunting and shooting - and to freeze out the criminal conspiracy amongst so many of the shooting community. Folk like you give them a veneer of respectability
Neither are cruel.
More BS from our resident "conservationist" I guess being trapped in a small cage with barely enough room to turn around for days on end is OK as long as you have some manky water and rotten carcass for company and knowing that you'll be despatched humanely after days of stress.
Although no one has mentioned wind turbines yet
More deflection straight from the "conservationists" playbook - if landowners like the Glenfiddich Estate were so concerned for preserving habitat and welfare, how come they allow them to be built on their land?
I'm not even getting into it with you as you obviously decide what is correct and what is not.
Call birds are looked after and once in a trap are as settled as any caged bird. You've obviously never even seen one as none I've ever seen has been as you describe.
As for BS you either want an echo chamber for your beliefs or you don't. I have no interest either way what you believe. Why would I deflect from something I hate ?
I call it as I see it.
What live birds are used as bait for raptors ? certainly not corvids, the buggers won't go near them.
I'm not naive and am not defending bad practice, but again, you either want my views or not.
I have never seen a raptor in a cage trap of any description.
I also don't believe most on here are unaware of wind turbine damage.
From your gods
Wind turbine kills in Scotland is an almost never event - why - because its one factor that is considered in the siting of them - not in places where there will be bird strikes.
So yes - you are using an example of bad practice in another country that does not apply here to deflect blame - its a common set of lies from the criminals. find an example of a windfarm causing casualties in the UK on more than a very rare basis. Remeber we know how may raptors are killed. Its solid data.
Brad - you really do need to open your eyes to the extent of this
In the above case of a larsen trap it was a jay used as bait. there are many other examples as well. IIRC a little owl was used in one case but that may have been a pole trap or it may have been a decoy at a harrier nest to scare the birds away. I'll look up more larsen traps killing raptors deliberately for you
Looks to be a decent summary of the data. Note this is data the police believe is true.
https://www.nwcu.police.uk/how-do-we-prioritise/priorities/raptor-persecution/
Also 53 confirmed hen harriers killed in 3 years
Here is data of raptors killed in traps. again its a tiny number of the criminals and their traps that get caught
https://www.againstcorvidtraps.co.uk/campaign/raptor-persecution/
You simply cannot deny this is common practice on grouse moors. the data is there note the data isd from an RSPB repor tnot a fringe loon. Its well known. Open your eyes man
Yup good research. The first is persecution , not related to crow traps as far as I can tell. It also shows next to no data apart from one map of disappearances
In the above case of a larsen trap it was a jay used as bait.
A Jay is a call bird in any larsen trap aimed at Jays. Every Larsen trap has a corvid as "bait bird" It's normal practice and nothing to do with BoP.
The second lists 3 instances of incorrectly operated traps being left locked, it also shows no data whatsoever. No charges brought for any of those examples. So no, not great research I'm afraid.
You simply cannot state this is a "tiny " example with nothing to say otherwise.
3 cases of wrongly operated traps listed on an anti shooting site does nothing for me sorry.
Again, I am totally against it,(illegal killing of raptors) but am not convinced by many of the anti shoot propaganda.
I know people who have carried this out. They are scum in my book and I would never have anything to do with them. They have been prosecuted for it and are not working.
They are a tiny minority of the people involved in shooting that I know.
I have been majorly involved with a commercial shoot for the last decade.(No longer)
Thousands of birds put down annually.
I am utterly convinced that not a single bird of prey has been killed on that shoot. or on any of the neighbouring shoots (Scottish borders)
It's just not something that is done by the majority.
The data is from the RSPB not an anti shooting site
You would be wrong both on the borders and on the extent. Its the vast majority if not every shoot and borders is a hotspot along with Angus glens. The data is incontrovertible
Now this is a straight lift from meticulous data gathering its just the blog presents it in an easily digested form
Note the map shows many confirmed kills of raptors all across the borders. so you are either being fooled, fooling yourself or simply denying what is happening.
You really need to open your eyes and stop denying what is proven fact
Werrity report
https://www.gov.scot/publications/grouse-moor-management-group-report-scottish-government/
Another map of proven persecution incidents. Note the borders is a hotspot
Birds of prey killed in the borders
https://www.scotsman.com/news/environment/two-scotlands-rarest-birds-prey-found-shot-borders-1418992
Lots more solid data on birds of prey killings
Its clearly the majority, its clearly widespread, it happens on almost every estate, the hard data is only a small % of the suspected cases. Even only using the confirmed kills on grouse moors its clear its widespread and commonplace.
also note amongst this data are numerous examples of larsen traps aimed at birds of prey.
Unless you and folk like you who abhor this but are involved in the industry stand alongside the conservationists all bird shooting will be banned You are either against killing raptors or you are not. If you attempt to defend the grouse moors in the face of incontrovertible evidence then you are on the side of the criminals. Its that simple
Its clearly a massive widespread criminal conspiracy to kill raptors
You probably and not unreasonably do not want to mention which estate you worked on but if you do I will bet you I find multiple proven incidents or I will perform a forfeit of your choice 🙂
^ I could have predicted the local pins in the map to us.
Upland estates with a noticeable dearth of biodiversity, traps well away from people and paths, lines of grit feeders, paths handily 'overgrown' or buried under knee deep cow feeding kaka and a keeper who every year challenged our outdoor centre groups.
There is also a management company that manages the shooting rights / stalks / hunts, and the local.pins coincide with thier involvement in estates.
Hmmm
Oh look - borders estate, illegal pesticides only used for killing raptors, traps set to kill raptors.
Wilson is well known and is a disgrace, He should never work again. Total imbecile.
The place I have been involved with has no record whatsoever of any crimes against any wildlife. I can assure you of that one.
Raeshaw was the worst I've heard of down our way but that was nearly a decade ago.
"The place I have been involved with has no record whatsoever of any crimes against any wildlife. I can assure you of that one."
Doesnt mean that crimes haven't been committed there though does it??
Wilson is well known and is a disgrace,
Without wanting to get involved in a pile on, if he was well known, why was he able to stay in work?
has no record whatsoever of any crimes against any wildlife
Do you mean no convictions? If you do that is very different to saying no crimes took place. We all know how it is nearly impossible to secure enough evidence to convict wildlife crime on vast countryside estates.
Doesnt mean that crimes haven’t been committed there though does it??
I would like to remind all of us that the only way forward it to work together - I have grown up seeing both sides, and although I now do think we have a big issue with raptor persecution (and generally in 'conservation' around hunting, shooting, fishing), I am understanding of the work that needs to be done.
I have been involved in shooting corvids and foxes, having seen the injuries they can inflict on lambs, on balance they need some control.
Just like deer also need culling in much larger numbers than currently managed... 😉
I would like to remind all of us that the only way forward it to work together
The problem with that Matt is that the field sports industry is massively defensive and quite frankly, combative. Everyone is out to get them, no-one understands them, townies are bad, they are the only people who can save the countryside, no crime has taken place, RSPB and Chris Packham are the antichrist and it goes on and on and on and on. They demonstrate no ability to flex or change at all and certainly no willingness to accept there is a problem or work with other bodies.
I follow SGA on Facebook, mainly out of curiosity. Their Chair is like a case study in how to not steer an organisation through challenging times.
I would like to remind all of us that the only way forward it to work together
I would like to remind all of us that has been trotted out for years now.
With one side mouthing along whilst continuing mass persecution of anything they dont like the look of.
The utter madness of all of this is that the industry we are accusing of killing raptors exists only because of the economy of killing game birds. How do you rationally explain that, people paying money to enjoy themselves by killing things.
Madness.
Maybe give the estates a stake in keeping the raptors safe. If a nest or bird(s) disappears the estate loses it's shooting licence for failing to protect the wildlife. If the nest/bird(s) are bordered by more than 1 estate they all lose their licences.
We're beyond pussy-footing about, compel obedience with a similarly brutal punishment to that of killing protected species. Yes people will lose their jobs but we're beyond being nice currently there's no sanction other than on the fall-guy nominated by the land-owner. A strict liability offence with no wriggle room.
I would like to remind all of us that the only way forward it to work together
I would agree to some extent which is why I keep saying we need folk like Brads on side so we can isolate the criminals. However as long as folk like brads continue to deny the extent of the problem then they are part of the problem. the hard core will not work with the conservation side indeed they pretend to then use the data they get to kill more raptors. See hen harriers.
Sandwich - thats licensing which is now going to happen especially now Fergus Ewings gone
Brads - as the data shows you are simply wrong about the extent of this. Face up to it. Choose to be part of the solution not part of the problem Every area in Scotland where there are grouse moors. almost every if not every estate is a part of the criminal conspiracy
@Sandwich While I hear you (and kind of agree), I still think a reward based system should go alongside it. I said it earlier in the thread - we need to make things financially worthwhile. Bonuses paid for 'hosting' raptors, grants for access paths, rewards for biodiversity etc etc.
AND some serious consequences around raptor (and other wildlife/ecosystem) persecution.
But we need to find a way of sustaining all this and creating economies in rural areas.
And this will not mean an end to needing to shoot or kill things - our environment is so out of kilter, the huge deer herds or corvids, or rats etc will need to be dealt with. We don't have, and I cannot see them living alongside us on a crowded island, the apex predators to keep things in balance.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/south_of_scotland/6944017.stm
golden eagle killed in the borders
Matt - they get huge public subsidies.
I have no problem shooting animals if they are for the pot or there is a need ie culling.
The grouse moors have gone far beyond a carrot approach. they need criminal sanctions.
Licensing will do but it must be enforced hard. Law abiding estates it will make no difference to. funny that the SGA is united against it. Its almost as if they know there is a huge majority of criminals amongst their members - as of course is well proven
I do totally agree with the thesis the land needs a use and to employ people.. Scotland cannot be one big park
@matt_outandabout The carrot is being able to continue hosting shooting events on the land. As TJ says there are all ready huge public fund injections that the landowner can take up. We now need to ensure that there is a return on that public investment.
There would also need to be a compulsion on managing deer numbers if the shooting licence is lost with appointed shooters culling the herd for the estate to sell the meat. Corvid and fox numbers will settle naturally if the food sources are restricted due to the lack of game bird shooting.