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Thank you Core.
Ehrob - the greens in the scottish parliament have already started pushing hard on this - one advantage of having greens in parliament
Link already posted but the RSPB are well known for culling various species.
Contactors employed to shoot gulls on the Ythan estuary, deer culling on reserves alongside large number of predator culling.
They, and the SSPCA etc are political organisations as much as anything else. Do as I say, not as I do types.
Another discussion for another thread though, just pointing out the irony in citing RSPB on a bird shooting thread.
Wolves, lynx? No way*.
We got rid off them once already.
They will be used as a scam to restrict right to roam.
.
.
*Unless we are given back the right to re-arm.
Contactors employed to shoot gulls on the Ythan estuary, deer culling on reserves alongside large number of predator culling.
They, and the SSPCA etc are political organisations as much as anything else. Do as I say, not as I do types.
But the difference is that they are using contractors to remove pests presumably under licence rather than paying to shoot things that have been bred for that purpose for fun.
Cheers for the link @oldbloeuptheroad
They, and the SSPCA etc are political organisations as much as anything else
Although there’s nothing actually wrong with that. Political campaigning/lobbying is common within the charity sector (mostly with larger players) and can prove highly beneficial to an organisations charitable core aims. You get TV chefs doing just this too.
In terms of charity type, RSPB and the SSPCA are best thought of as membership organisations not political. I’ve no idea how they monitor the ‘wants’ of their respective membership but it could well be that which steers policy to some degree. I’ve no idea tbf.
Even the organisation I work for engages in political pressure, although in our case it’s trying to encourage certain treatments are available via the NHS, such as would be beneficial to those who have had Strokes.
I don't understand why Epicyclo doesn't like wolves and lynx in the Highlands; neither species are of any danger to humans, even the odd sort who trundle around the mountains on bikes. When was the last time a Great Divide rider was eaten by a wolf in Alberta/Montana/Wyoming? Or a rider in the Alps? And as for Lynx, they're just cute kitties. Even a big adult is unlikely to be more than 20kg. No threat to humans. My pet cat is 9kg..
I met a wolf out in the wild in Alberta backcountry once, on a night ski tour; I didn't feel threatened at all by it and it trundled off through moonlit glades. Awesome.
As for predation on sheep, we already know that these woolly gobblers are both harmful to the environment in numerous ways and are likely to be reducing in numbers as subsidies withdraw...
I’ve no idea how they monitor the ‘wants’ of their respective membership but it could well be that which steers policy to some degree.
I think set by annual membership conferences
Whilst rare, wolf attacks on humans continue
"The first fatal attack (in North America) in the 21st century occurred on November 8, 2005, when a young man was killed by wolves that had been habituated to people in Points North Landing, Saskatchewan, Canada[47] while on March 8, 2010, a young woman was killed while jogging near Chignik, Alaska.[48]"
Less likely than being hit by lightning but still a small risk. Having said that I'd prefer to meet a wolf in Alaska than a bear!
Highlandman - the problem with introducing apex predators like lynx and wolves is that they have a big range especially wolves and cannot be contained in an area. So who is going to pay for livestock they take?
Lynx reintroduction was not helped at all by the lynx trust ( I think they were called) who tried to get the keilder reintroduction and who spouted loads of utter nonsense and thus ruined any case they might have. Nor was the case helped by the chap on the scottish estate who wanted to fence off the estate and refuse access so he could reintroduce wolves etc
I would be in favour of apex predator reintroduction but it actually incredibly difficult to do
So who is going to pay for livestock they take?
Well aside from the minor detail we already do pay massive subsidies for the livestock Lynx are woodland creatures. In Europe outside of Sweden which has a habit of keeping sheep in woodland the impact is pretty much zero. The advantage to the country as a whole in terms of helping reduce and control deer is worth it and would also help farmers. There is also evidence that they help control fox populations.
The lynx trust is definitely problematic. The bloke in charge currently is going for a golden eagle reintroduction in Wales which is a tad dubious and might even be undermining a separate reintroduction project which was carefully and slowly building its support by making sure it involves everyone.
I think there are stronger arguments against wolves but the arguments against Lynx dont really add up and mostly seem like people think they are more like tigers.
Lynx will not take red deer. they might take smaller deer young. Lynx will take sheep and lambs.
Another discussion for another thread though, just pointing out the irony in citing RSPB on a bird shooting thread.
It isnt though. The RPSB does limited control in order to protect at risk species when other options fail. It is a problem with loss of habitat that some species are restricted to small areas and hence are highly vulnerable to attack.
There is also the problem with the loss of predators that some animals are no longer naturally controlled.
For example I would expect the RSPB site managers would prefer lynx to shooting but without that its plan b. Likewise to protect red squirrels currently shooting is pretty high on the list since the predators are unnaturally suppressed. There is evidence that if pine martins are introduced then red squirrels do better since they are more adapted to dealing with the martins than greys are.
Grouse moors on the other hand do pretty much unlimited predator control (plus anything else they feel might be a threat) in order to try and get artificially high numbers of grouse in order to shoot them.
Lynx will take sheep and lambs.
If those sheep and lambs are in woodland yes which isnt really the case on the hill deserts is it?
Lynx is also the natural predator for the beaver. Might be handy now in some parts of Scotland, where beavers are spreading rapidly and probably need some controlling. They also take young, weak and old red deer but are no threat to healthy adults. They would be good at controlling the wild goats too.
An interesting program, touching of many of the topics we've explored on this thread.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00vnxsh/making-scotlands-landscape-2-the-land
Cheers Scotroutes, looks decent at first glance.
Only a closely related note of the landscape not being in an optimum condition
The first steps to a new woodland alongside the A83 Rest and Be Thankful road will begin later this month. The project will plant a variety of species across the hillside to help stabilise the slope, create new habitats, and enhance biodiversity.
Part 1 is all about trees.
Lynx will not take red deer. they might take smaller deer young. Lynx will take sheep and lambs.
A set of strong ascertains any references that support these robustly held views?
A lynx weighs 20 kilos. An adult red deer weighs ten times that. No way will a lynx take an adult red deer. Lynx do not hunt in packs IIRC
According to evidence from where there are lynx they do take sheep and lambs. Even the hopelessly optimistic lynx trust admit they will take some.
its not a reason not to introduce them but it means mitigation measures are needed and a compensation scheme which needs funds
A set of strong ascertains any references that support these robustly held views?
How many sheep/ lambs do these references estimate the lynx will kill p.a.
Could you compare to those killed by; dogs, foxes, traffic, failures in animal husbandry
TJ, you're a bit optimistic there about the size of red deer in Scotland. They probably 'should' be up to 150kg but in reality these days, it's rare for a big stag to be much more than about 90kg. There are several reasons for the substandard sizes compared to the past and to their very close genetic cousins, the elk of N America; lack of woodland shelter and overgrazing has led to a shrinking in size. Basically, they're starving, living out in the open instead of in the forests and have pygmied as a result. Plus, the Victorians and later generations have selectively shot the largest males, cutting back variation in the population significantly. Many estates are doing their best to reverse this trend (Ben Alder, Ossian, Feshie being examples) but there are still offenders yet, selling the killing of a big stag to the highest bidders.
These days, an adult hind might be as small as 8 stone/ 50 odd kg so if in any distress at all, a big strong lynx would certainly be interested.
We know that we need to cut back hill sheep numbers for environmental reasons- drainage, biodiversity/monoculture and atmospheric emissions reasons, among others. Win-win..?
I think I got my lbs and kilos muddled
Having worked with Slovak Erasmus colleagues in the Tatra and visited the Polish side as well, there's great experience of apex predators in Europe. This is in a farmer, upland area with many visitors.
They have full time monitoring of the bears and wolf pack. They advise daily where to not walk on the Polish side, Slovak was a nature reserve with a more nature is first approach.
They don't have the volume of sheep we do - the farms seemed to be more cattle and crops.
They also have marmot, chamois, goat, red deer, more rodents etc. This means that the lynx are well fed without the need to often stray out of the high hills and woods. It meant the wolves too don't range too far or run hungry. There were issues, I'm not sure if the farmers were compensated.
There was a really healthy concern about keeping the bears and humans apart.
This discussion should take notice of work all across Europe, where people live with the reality of a 'wilder', although less crowded, landscape and economy.
Just in case anyone was under any illusion about what utter shits are working and campaigning for the right to shoot. This exposes their vile psychopathic behaviour. Yes I am aware not all hunters and shooters are like this but ................
Also leadhills estate has been caught with carbofuran again. Its illegal to own and its main( only?) possible use is to poison raptors
https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/illegal-toxic-poison-discovered-scots-23523011
this is after they were successfully prosecuted for using carbofuran baits to kill birds 10 ears ago.
A few bad apples? Rogue emplyees or a concerted criminal conspiracy
what utter shits are working and campaigning for the right to shoot. This exposes their vile psychopathic behaviour
For balance, some of those campaigning against shooting are no better.
Pot and Kettle
Errmmm - its hardly equivalent to rape threats, having dead animals hung on your gate, having your personal telephone number published etc etc
The gamekeepers complaining of abuse are actually the main perpetrators of abuse. Its a hugely one way traffic. Yes there will be some the other way and yes all abuse is to be condemned. Thats a pro hunting site ( obviously) with one non corroborated report compared to many corroborated reports
its a part of their propaganda campaign to make out they are the victims
go on - where are the screenshots of this supposed online abuse? Where are the police reports? where is the evidence?
Idiots on both sides.
That said, it seems there's far more fear from the landowner/gamekeeper side, and more regular breaches of law or guidance on that side too.
I'd struggle beyond anecdotal evidence, and even if I could find statistics on "who's the naughtier", it's an irrelevance to the real debate.
IIRC Brads insists he is a responsible hunter / shooter.
should folk like you not be splitting off from the criminal conspiracies that are proven to be in grouse shooting circles?
Edit - it need not be conservationists v gamekeepers. It could be law abiding v criminals
I've no time whatsoever for imbeciles who give shooters a bad name. Anyone shooting a raptor needs a good kicking.
They should be sacked and never employed in the industry again.
But, and it's a big but, animal rights activists can be the utter scum of the earth. They are as guilty of lying and fabricating "evidence" as bad gamekeepers and shooters are for hiding evidence.
There are bad on both sides of this fence.
I'm with none of them.
Fair do's. I'm the same.
It just seems such a polarising debate, finding shared ground (literally and figuratively) is the key.
fair do indeed
They are as guilty of lying and fabricating “evidence” as bad gamekeepers and shooters are for hiding evidence.
Any evidence of this? The hunting shooting lobby keep claiming this but as far as I am aware there is no evidence of this ever been produced
Lynx will not take red deer. they might take smaller deer young. Lynx will take sheep and lambs.
Interesting
The main point still stands tho - a small number of Lynx wlll have no significant effect on red deer numbers
Would eating more venison have an effect on deer numbers, if lots of us did it?
Yup.
If estates can make money from it they will shoot it. If they can't they won't, and Govt bodies are left to step in.
Brads - I am serious about wanting to see evidence of the conservation side lying and fabricating evidence
Because of my sources of info i will never see this, rarely seeing anything other than press releases from the shooting lobby and would be really interested to see any evidence of anti shooting lies and fabrication
The main point still stands tho – a small number of Lynx wlll have no significant effect on red deer numbers
I'm not getting on to you, Im just showing there is clear evidence.
But it's not just deer is it ?, a lot of people go camping with their small children.
You introduce wolves or lynx into Scotland, it's highly likely there will be incidents involving people. How vocal would supporters be in such an instance ?, I reckon the silence would be deafening.
Personally I cant see the need to do such. I mean WHY exactly do we need wolves or lynx ?.
As regards people attacks - Lynx attacks are pretty unheard of and Wolves only attack people if they are really desperate which with all those deer and smaller game is unlikely
I would like to see apex predators reintroduced but it needs a lot more than wishful thinking and good intentions
European brown bears would be nice as well
sorry - the why:
rebalancing the ecology. wildlife tourism are two main reasons but it must be done without turing the highlands into a park or a zoo
Don't confuse conservationists with animal rights activists / anti shooting activists.
Google is your friend regards the latter. Not hard to find out what kind of people they are.
Even Packham (not a conservationist when talking about wild justice, purely an anti shooting outfit)
has been caught lying recently in a case concerning circus tigers in Europe.
He even had the gall to ask for help from the GCWT when his Welsh court case was flung out.
As I said. Arseholes on both sides so one is no better than the other in my book.
I know of no instances of anyone from the conservation side making up things and falsifying evidence. its something the hunting shooting fishing lobby claim happens but as far as I am aware have never presented any evidence.
If you want to make allegations you should be able to support them
Arseholes on both sides
Tim Bonner being such an example. I’d rather spend time with Chris Packham any day of the week
I know of no instances of anyone from the conservation side making up things
Good to know you don't read my replies.
I have read every one. No evidence just allegations. If you have evidence I would love to read it. the better informed we are the better the debate
I’d rather spend time with Chris Packham any day of the week
A lying arsehole, as I've said. Blindly trying to stop shooting regardless of the affect on wildlife or agriculture.
Happy to ask for help when he gets spanked though.
Anyway, I made my view clear and am not getting suckered in to the usual crap.
You may now proceed to say it's because I'm a liar/stupid/uneducated/wrong, whatever makes you happy..
I suspect its because you have no evidence to back up your allegations
simple things like screenshots of the online abuse or police reports or some evidence of the lies or falsifying of evidence?
So do you have any evidence - or not?
You may now proceed to say it’s because I’m a liar/stupid/uneducated/wrong, whatever makes you happy..
I would never say this of you. You have a different opinion and are happy to express it. I am happy to express mine. You do however seem quite keen to suggest others are liars though.
Why make out you are interested when all you want is to make me a liar ?
Because of my sources of info i will never see this, rarely seeing anything other than press releases from the shooting lobby and would be really interested
Seriosuly mate ?, I laughed but went with it.
I'll not be any more though.
Or maybe , just a wee one.
How about Packam tweeting about UK hunters traveling to shoot Puffins ? Total bollocks. But that's just a wee fib.
As was his stories about German tigers and his partners outfit "wildheart"
Making up complete lies (well proven in Spanish and German courts) and using it to obtain donations for his "charity" (another wee fib)
He is not adverse to using his BBC status to have lies put in print, but that's ok, he's lovable.
Or have a look at Luke Steele. Founder of Moorland Monitors. Criminal liar enough for you?
But I've no patience for it tonight, I've a Special Karachi to wash down before I burst into flames.
How about Packam tweeting about UK hunters traveling to shoot Puffins ? Total bollocks. But that’s just a wee fib.
He actually shared a Telegraph article on the subject. Shouldn’t your criticism be focused on the news provider?
Seriously Brad - I don't read the hunting shooting fishing magazines, I don't read the telegraph. I have heard of the shooting lobby making allegations of falsifying evidence but I have never actually seen any evidence of the conservation side falsifying anything
I am not calling you a liar. I have actually found your contributions to this debate interesting and thought provoking
Luke Steele has been dropped like a hot tattie and all claims of him being founder of Moorland Monitors are being denied etc.
He posted mail through a streets letterboxes claiming a scientist was a rapist.
That was just for starters. He's a nasty little shit. But besties with Mark Avery.
Doctoring "secret" (illegal) footage inside an abattoir was another that had him laughed out of court.
He did 18 months for one crime, cannae remember what one just now though.
Moorland Monitors was his pet. People with absolutely zero knowledge of moorland management screaming carnage just for the sake of it.
I will stress again though don't confuse conservationists with anti hunters. Most moors are working with conservation outfits nowadays and quite rightly so. Shooting shouldn't cost serious damage to wildlife.
Most if not all organisations mentioned here are the latter.
Shooting shouldn’t cost serious damage to wildlife.
Shame that is simply not so for grouse moors - the main subject of this thread
1) muirburn degrades the soils, reduces biodiversity and causes erosion
2) Grouse moors routinely kill all predators they can legally
3) many grouse moors illegally kill raptors
Grouse moors are "green deserts" with hugely reduced biodiversity and the damage they do is proven
Luke Steele has been dropped like a hot tattie and all claims of him being founder of Moorland Monitors are being denied etc.
He posted mail through a streets letterboxes claiming a scientist was a rapist.
That was just for starters. He’s a nasty little shit. But besties with Mark Avery.Doctoring “secret” (illegal) footage inside an abattoir was another that had him laughed out of court.
He did 18 months for one crime, cannae remember what one just now though.
Moorland Monitors was his pet. People with absolutely zero knowledge of moorland management screaming carnage just for the sake of it.I will stress again though don’t confuse conservationists with anti hunters. Most moors are working with conservation outfits nowadays and quite rightly so. Shooting shouldn’t cost serious damage to wildlife.
Most if not all organisations mentioned here are the latter.
Sources? Otherwise it’s just words.
Particularly to someone like me that pays no attention to either pro or anti hunting groups.
I did look up luke Steele - the only info I could find was rather nasty pro hunting groups but even allowing for that he sounds a shit and he did do some time.
Yet another peregrine poisoned. Proven. Poison bait left near a known nesting site in the dark peak
You cannot hide from the fact that grouse moors routinely do this and that during lockdown the illegal killing of raptors increased
Yet another peregrine poisoned. Proven. Poison bait left near a known nesting site in the dark peak
You cannot hide from the fact that grouse moors routinely do this and that during lockdown the illegal killing of raptors increased
But the RSPB did it, or Chris Packham, or urban people who don't understand the country, or the bird picked up the poison elsewhere and flew in to the area before eating it, or its because of 'so called access laws', or it was a person walking their dog off the lead, or its because we protect all of the wildlife, or it was a mountain hare, or, or, or, PROVE IT WAS US!!!!!
There you go, proof we can self police and don't need licencing.
You don't understand, you don't even live in the countryside.
It was found on top of the poison bait!
But of course the bait was planted by the folk who want to discredit grouse moors! 🙂
But of course the bait was planted by
the folk who want to discredit grouse moorsChris Packham!
Fixed it for you, you bad townie.
*ducks head in shame and tugs forelock*
sorry guv
The Scottish Gamekeepers Association had a FB post up on 11 Feb bemoaning how someone 'from the south' abusing 'so called access laws' had their dog off a lead and it disturbed deer, thereby potentially stopping the deer from eating. Their post included the fabulous quote
If people remain unaware of impacts of their leisure pursuits on the health of iconic species, Government agencies have not done their work properly in encouraging Access rights which match up with responsibilities.
impacts of their leisure pursuits on the health of iconic species
Their members quite literally shoot iconic species for leisure!!!
Couldn't see the Angus glens for smoke at the weekend because of the Moor burn. Anybody see the disgusting exchanges between the pres of the Scottish gamekeepers association and his acolytes on their forum? Somebody shared it on the Scottish rewilding page on Facebook.
You cannot hide from the fact that grouse moors routinely do this
They have got more sneaky about it in recent years due to the number of inconvenient tags. Might be a f u to the National Trust (whose land it was found on) since the NT has started to grow a backbone.
Found a freshly dead buzzard beside our house a couple of days ago. Most likely a victim of the recent hard weather and lack of food but reported it to DEFRA and it was actually collected and taken away for inspection the next day. Apparently they are interested in any reports of dead birds or preys, swans etc for the purposes of monitoring bird flu and poisoning etc. We're fairly close to grouse moor so you never know what they're up to.
I was pleasantly surprised so if you do see any dead birds or whatever definitely worth reporting it.
Couldn’t see the Angus glens for smoke at the weekend because of the Moor burn. Anybody see the disgusting exchanges between the pres of the Scottish gamekeepers association and his acolytes on their forum? Somebody shared it on the Scottish rewilding page on Facebook.
I've tried engaging on SGA facebook but they just delete your comments or block you. I have asked genuine questions, not been overly challenging and they just can't handle it. They are like Trump supporters in their blind faith of their version of the truth whilst being victims of the media. Thankfully they are truly appalling at organising constructive defence of their actions so, they will in time, undo their own industry through their ineptitude.
But the RSPB did it, or Chris Packham
Well this was obviously a set up by the RSPB.....
https://community.rspb.org.uk/ourwork/b/investigations/posts/more-dark-secrets-in-north-yorkshire
Don't know for sure but I'll wager the gamekeeper in question was the gobshite who had a go at me when I was on The Moresdale Road one Saturday. The police had a word with him about hat incident as well.
They are like Trump supporters in their blind faith of their version of the truth
Or maybe that response springs from the fact that they know they can offer no reasonable defence of some of the practices? So all they can do is bluster and shut down debate. Which is also Trump like.
A lot of them have recently appeared on pretty much every outdoor page I am on. As soon as somebody dares to mention anything about negative land use they are on it mob handed. Almost like it is planned....
The thing that really amuses me is that if they are the good landowners they claim to be then they have nothing to fear from licensing!
In fact it would protect them from all the false accusations they claim because they would be able to point to the license and say - we are operating correctly
TJ, of course you are right. But remember licensing is the start of a plan to destroy their way of life and, in turn ruin the countryside. It is just the first nail in the coffin of the entire countryside. Unless they can carry on doing what they are doing without any regulation, thousands of jobs will be lost, millions of ££'s will be lost to the economy and the countryside will be a barren wasteland devoid of all life.
It kind of makes you wonder how wildlife even survives in places without kindly gamekeepers helping to manage things for them.
I know, imagine being a hare...out in the cold eating nothing but bland grass and always terrified of raptors. Add in the constant irritation from ticks and I would be practically begging a guardian of the countryside to put me out of my misery.
I know, imagine being a hare
Poor things must be so upset at the new rules which came in on the 1st of March. Still at least those nice guardians of the countryside are offering to relocate them from grouse moors to help them repopulate other areas.
I seem to remember reading that estates had been extremely busy with regards to hares since the start of last year.
And with killing raptors. Killings are massively up this year but some good news - there was a mass poisoning early in lockdown and there are multiple prosecutions ongoing from it.
Burning totally spoilt the fine spring weather the past few days here on Speyside - Glenlivet, Glenfiddich estates all at it, leaving a brown layer of smog across the skies. The cold snap has had an impact on the local rabbit and hare population but there is nothing feeding on the carrion - I haven’t seen a fox here in 10 months.
I have some lovely photos of smoke inversion taken yesterday from the Cairngorms. In this still, high pressure air it just hangs in the glens.
Same here in Angus, as referred to above; smog hanging across Strathmore all through Sunday & Monday from Muirburn in the glens and even on the Sidlaws. A low, brown/yellow haze sunk into the cold air and no significant breeze. This must be as bad for asthma folk as city smog & fumes; we see bluster in the press about woodburning stoves, but why so little criticism of the vast amount of particulate pollution produced by burning thousands of acres of heather and peat annually?