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We are slowly winning this
Now we have someone who understands conservation in charge of this and who is strong enough to stand up to not just the shooters but their supporters in Holyrood licensing will come, the criminals will be put out of business and the most harmful practices reined in. along with more enlightened landowners coming in and community buyouts in various forms
A part of the jigsaw has to be employment tho. The highlands must have year round employment for folk and the land needs some commercial usage or else the highlands just become a park / playground for tourists
Sort of related is the artificially high price of venison - if I go to a butchers it costs more per kilo that farmed beef. Around here they're culling the deer and leaving the carcasses to rot / carrion on the hill as they say the cost of transport and butchery doesn't warrant the effort. This doesn't stack up as there's no cost in raising or keeping them in comparison to farmed animals. Due to the sheer numbers of red deer here, they're a bit of a nuisance, they destroy a lot of the natural vegetation, leaving gorse and bracken to take over - we had virtually no orchids this year.
Our local co-op is selling venison meatballs cheaper than beef (£3.00 vs. £3.50) so we've happily been enjoying these with our pasta.
@tjagain I take it that’s in Scotland? Coffey is in charge down here and is a clown.
@dovebiker The bigger worry is demand for venison driving deer farming rather than culling wild. And as previously discussed, the wild deer population is sufficiently overborne that they’re often malnourished and grazing everything flat.
@dovebiker there is a shortage of lardering availability which means production costs of venison from carcass are high and there is no capacity for processing in some areas resulting in deer being left to rot on the hill.
Talking about employment, TJ have you seen what Trees for Life have achieved at Dundreggan? Something like 3-4x the number of employees are now on that estate compared with when it was in use previously for 'sporting'. I know that it's only one example but then go on to look at the Cairngorms. Outdoor sports and activities generate more turnover within the limited park area than all field sports activity across the whole of Scotland. More jobs, a much wider spread of benefit, no animal cruelty, environmental degradation, predator persecution... Change is coming but it is desperately slow!
Thats really good to hear
I just get a bit concerned sometimes that the highlands could just end up as a park with few poorly paid jobs. It certainly seems that sometimes the need for jobs is forgotten
The biggest piece of the jigsaw is employment and investment.
And it's easy to look at Cairngorms and say 'look, this works', when in some forgotten corner of Sutherland, Harris or Galloway a landowner is thinking 'I cannot draw in that many people to create a business'. See the closure of Cream of Galloway recently or Balblair's demise
I would also say there are cultural and educational pieces of the puzzle not yet sorted.
And there's big risks with alternatives - from energy to mining, forestry and agriculture. There is still a lot to juggle with and play for. I do think things are changing though.
Looks like we are going to get full ban on the use of snares in Scotland. good. Teddies getting chucked everywhere by the shooters lobbies
I'd have thought that game bird shooters are a small number of people who aren't going to vote SNP.
Would be better if they'd combine it with a licensing scheme and say any snares on your land risks your licence though.
Licensing is coming in Scotland.
Custodians of the countryside are at it again, this time a missing Golden Eagle to the north of the Golfie.
The bird was last seen in the area to the west of Fountainhall, between Heriot and Stow on Thursday, 12 October
Oh, you mean on the massive driven grouse moor that dominates that whole area......?
I'm sure it is a coincidence but that area also includes Raeshaw Estate which previously had its licence revoked by SNH after Police Scotland found evidence of raptor persecution.
Criminality hiding in plain site, just nearly impossible to find evidence. But hey, they protect the Lapwings!
Yup - more in the highlands as well including a golden eagle.
Still - the bill for licensing is going thru parliament right now. Its going to happen. Then the criminals will be put out of business
I agree the bill will change a lot. And it will go through - speaking with MSP about it and he said there is proper majority in support of the bill and being seen to support it.
However, the funding for SNH and police to enforce, that is missing.
As are the transition funds and support to help communities.
However, the funding for
SNHNS and police to enforce, that is missing.
NS are currently all hands to the pumps replacing their Deer Licensing system. Even with a bucket load of cash there's no quick way of securing the skills needed to build the systems needed to administer the licences.
As are the transition funds and support to help communities.
Very little if anything needed. shooting provides little employment. the real effect on communities will be very small.
I think the reality will be that a lot of land owners will give serious consideration to selling off the land to the large number of investors buying up plots for rewilding / carbon off-setting. This is a growing business with great opportunity for local communities if they engage properly.
I think a large number of them will actually cleanup their acts - because the land is worth a lot less without the grouse shooting license. thats my hope anyway. ~Anyone losing their license will be put out of business and the land will then be worth very little
Davesport - its truely absurd. Douglas Miller also has conservation awards if you can believe that. At least his remit will only be in England and we got rid of our equivalent - Fergus Ewing<br /><br />We are slowly winning on the issue of grouse moors but its all a bit two steps forward one back and this is a huge backward step. At least he should not have much power for long and there are good folk monitoring the situation
Slightly interesting situation where he’ll be responsible for grouse moors but not his own?
@TJ,
I cycle through his estate regularly. When RDM bought the Hopes Estate he initially tried to close off the whole of the access road which also services the Hopes reservoir, dam & water treatment plant. Despite this being a public road that is maintained by the council; it took time to get the road reopened. More recently he decided to remove the legitimate right of vehicular access to the estate by preventing people using the water authority car park by putting his own large and intimidating signs on property that didn't belong to him. His justifications for this would have been laughable if the consequences hadn't been so far reaching. He built his own car park in an attempt to soothe the Ire of those who'd previously enjoyed access. Permission was sought for this & granted in the face of strong opposition. There was a retrospective catch however. Access to his new car park was limited by the purchase of a valid permit. There were only 20 of these at any time & I've not spoken to anyone who had one. His car park ended up full of contractors equipment & with his signs leaving people intimidated at the prospect of parking in the water authority car park he'd effectively managed to exclude people arriving in cars that wanted access to the hills. Three years after he put these measures in place the illegal signs he erected in the water authority car park are gone & believe its safe to park there again without the anonymous goons/flunkeys putting large stickers on peoples car windows. It has taken a lot of uphill struggle to get things this far.
Anyway; I digress. "That this House congratulates Robbie Douglas-Miller who has been awarded an OBE for services to wildlife conservation in Scotland; recognises his contribution to conserving and improving the biodiversity of East Lothian and further afield; and wishes him continued success in his important work in addressing the climate emergency."
Yes' he's an OBE. This in itself probably not worthy of consideration but the reason he was given this leaves me dumbfounded considering the decimated wildlife I've seen on his property. In a remote valley on his estate off the beaten track, my wife & I cycled through a maze of carcasses. Hares, rabbits, corvids & pigeons. So many we had to steer the bikes round them. This area was well away from the butts & tracks used by the gun-bus to get the shooters up the hill. Not being versed in grouse moor or driven shooting estate management I'm guessing that his estate is managed along similar lines to many others. I'm not seeing anything that's been referenced above.
In a chance meeting and conversation with a local British Trust for Ornithology (BTO) ranger I asked him directly about raptor persecution on an estate close to my house where there are ongoing problems with access. His head fell & he said "I'm afraid there's no good news" :o( He had personally witnessed birds of prey being shot & disposed of. Some reported through the correct channels & at least one dead owl being located by the police. Getting sufficient evidence to stand a good chance of prosecution is very difficult as the legal bar is high was what I understood from our conversation.
So yes, as you point out; it's absurd & beyond the comprehension of most including me that this appointment has been made.
My own opinion is that he can do pretty much whatever he likes up there & there's little to be done to change things. I can cite plenty of good examples of land management & consideration given to maintaining access. Unfortunately this isn't one of the good examples & it exists purely as a monoculture to protect grouse at the expense of everything else including access.
Oh yes - the lammermuirs are mainly a "green desert" Licensing gets round the difficulty in getting prosecutions<br /><br />what I meant was he cannot set policy for Scotland and he will be subject to the same rules as all Scottish landowners once licensing is here - and if he continues to behave like a shit he will lose his license - hopefully. grouse moors are a huge criminal conspiracy.
Schrodinger's pheasant.
The bill is wending its way thru parliament and the committee has rejected weakening amendments and strengthened in some areas. Looking good for raptors
the fresh hell of trying to make shooting look glam (wtf is going on with those purple sunglasses!?), it's unusual for shooters to admit so candidly that predator control is so import to their hobby
Pheasants aren't wildlife or livestock. They are an invasive non native species.
The bill is thru its 3rd reading with all the gutting amendments removed. Final debate should bea formality. Great news for wildlife
Well, based on the number of fires in the Angus glens last few weeks; the laws will be ignored.
Then they will lose their license. The fires are probably getting it done before the bill becomes law
Indeed, even with a better law around this there is a culture of carrying on and, more importantly, the cost of bringing prosecutions will not be met by current budgets or staffing levels from police and Nature Scot.
Fires are still allowed. It's just that there are a few more restrictions. It's common to see them around this time of year.
I'm not normally a fan of Parks Watch Scotland, but this one seems to reflect a few pieces I've read and someone I've spoken to.
TLDR: current forestry grants as part of reforestation / carbon sequestration fails on so many fronts, mainly focussed on tree numbers. Seems huge public funds are put towards schemes which ultimately fail on so many fronts, and easily manipulated by businesses for thier gain
Shocker. Merrick the golden eagle, who was inconsiderately roosting near a grouse moor, was most likely shot.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cn0rzl5q7gpo
Custodians of the countryside at it again.
TYhe4re are no words to describe how angry this makes me. These shits are soon to be out of business hopefully
TYhe4re are no words to describe how angry this makes me. These shits are soon to be out of business hopefull
BUT THEY PROTECT CURLEWS!!!!!!
Custodians of the countryside at it again.
But the SGA have announced they share the programs anger about the news!
A cynic might suggest what they are most angry about is the tag happened to have sent an update at the location of the incident vs somewhere else.
It helps undermine what little plausible deniability is left around the "mysterious failures" of tags. Like when the one was found wrapped in lead or one where a few fragments were found of it.
SGA's complete deniability of any fault, their refusal to reform and aggressive rejection of any challenge or alternative use of land will be the thing that finally brings the industry to a close. Good irony and good riddance.
I am so sick of this shit.
I am lucky to live in an area where I have seen ge's several times and very close. It never fails to be a fabulous heart thumping moment, the birds are phenomenal and I can only imagine how a visitor to Scotland must feel to get a glimpse of one. Yet here we are, still hearing about our incredible wildlife being slaughtered in the name of what?
The tide has turned and the perpetrators are going to be swept into oblivion. They had their chance.
As franksinatra says, good riddance .
BUT THEY PROTECT [s]CURLEWS!!!!!![/s] grouse and pheasant
FTFY.
Agree with so many above - the law is changing, public awareness and opinion turning, funding and grants changing, and I think our changing climate and culture will mean some in the gaming industry will have to re-evaluate how they earn their living or maintain the estate. /end Optimist outlook.
*shocked face*
Link from the tick thread, deer spread ticks. And too many deer spread too many ticks.
We've ticks in the garden now, because two deer have been over wintering in our residential street.
So yeah, another reason I think we should cull the majority of deer in Scotland.
https://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/fp/news/highlands-islands/5549683/uist-ticks-lyme-disease-deer/
We edge closer people.
But I'm worried it's licensing without any teeth - not high enough standards and no policing.
Ok so its really fox hunting but anyone hear the sound of a barrel being scraped here?
I mean how laughable is that - they really are deluded folk
I mean how laughable is that – they really are deluded folk
Probably not,they are just looking for loops to place around their holes' 🙂
<h1 class="e-headline u-heading-1 " style="background-repeat: no-repeat; box-sizing: inherit; font-size: 4.1rem; margin: 0px; padding: 24px 0px 16px; vertical-align: baseline; font-weight: 400; line-height: 1.17; font-family: 'Austin News', georgia, times, serif; font-variation-settings: 'wght' 525, 'opsz' 60;" data-test="headline">Grouse off the menu for Glorious Twelfth</h1>
London restaurateurs say they are being quoted ‘extortionate’ amounts for a single bird, leaving them unable to honour the tradition
thoughts and prayers
I've just been served an advert by Facebook for a film being pushed by the "Shepherds of Wildlife"
The film is called "The Last Keeper"
The actual film is paywalled, but pro game hunters on FB are describing it as "must see" and, as far as I can tell, appears to be pretending to be putting forward the "protecters of wildlife myth" although you could call me cynical. Its certainly not putting "we just like shooting animals for fun" as front and centre.
Interview with the filmmaker here https://www.fieldsportschannel.tv/tom-opre-the-last-keeper/
Unless the actual film is very different, I'm likely to park this under "pro shooting deeply misleading propaganda".
Custodians of the countryside at it again.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/czxlpwwx0deo
"BUT WE SAVE THE COUNTRYSIDE!"
I can't wait until the field sports industry is history.
^ why, why would anyone shoot an osprey? Fisher folk worried it's eating the fish?
The issue now of course is that a shot bird doesn't fly far, so it's pretty clear cut who owns the land it was shot from. How you prove which individual pulled the trigger... Bet there is a wall of silence.
^ why, why would anyone shoot an osprey? Fisher folk worried it’s eating the fish?
I was chatting to a local Ghillie a few years ago and he was blaming Osprey for poor salmon numbers on the Tweed.
I wonder though if it is more of a shooting mindset, just blast anything out of the sky more from habit than anything else.
Yeah, just chatted with one of my teams husband who stalks on occasion (but misses the day his weapon was supplied by MoD...) and he suggested it could have been trigger happy, over stimulated and excited shooters seeing something move and just blasting it...But then also pointed out in a shoot the ghillie and dogs would have cleared everything up, so they either don't collect all the birds or have chosen to leave on injured and in pain...
Very late to this thread.. We have been in the Highlands for the last couple of weeks. I was chatting to an Estate Employee and he was telling me that they farm Red Deer (Trophy Deer, 8to12 points etc) They release them for people to shoot.
Now, I was under the impression that Deer were over populating the highlands and that hunters (Stalkers) were culling to reduce numbers back to a sustainable population.. Paying to provide a service as it were, but farming to shoot seems to be against what I was lead to believe. Any more trusted STW info on this would be great to know so I can fully understand.
Starving, over-populated deer don't produce the kind of trophy heads that the richest guests are looking for. The kind of guests who will pay absolute top dollar/Euro for a whole entourage of serfs to dress in tweeds and escort them and a pony up the hill to collect the half-tame trophy stag.
That's immoral in my book and should be condemned. Just like a guest on the 12th, who shoots an osprey for the sake of it. There just are not enough sanctions available yet. It's also a sadness that the bird had to make it's way onto the Nature Scot ground in Glen Doll, from wherever it was attacked. There are a handful of suspect estates nearby, some with quite significant previous for wildlife crime.
They release them for people to shoot.
I have never seen reports of that and it seems unlikely.
Some estates certainly provide massive amounts of winter food in order to keep the numbers high but as far as I am aware thats that.
Not dissimilar to grouse in terms of massive intervention stopping just short of actual farming.
Some estates certainly provide massive amounts of winter food in order to keep the numbers high but as far as I am aware thats that.
That doesn’t seem great if the end result is too many, half-starved deer grazing everything flat the rest of the year?
That doesn’t seem great if the end result is too many, half-starved deer grazing everything flat the rest of the year?
Yes but it stops just short of what is normally termed farming.
If anything it creates more of a problem but the "fieldsports" lot will use anything as an excuse to undermine the arguments against them turning massive areas into green deserts so its best to be precise.
Traditional deer estates are valued on the number of deer. Winter feeding keeps numbers high. Hence the overpopulation of half starved deer. I can believe in the farming of deer to produce good trophies
@TheDTs I can confirm that my daughter works on just that type of estate in Sutherland.
Deer population in Scotland is double what it was in the 90s. It's far too high and has had a detrimental effect on the environment.
If you go to glen affric for example, you can witness first hand the effects of controlling deer(in this case fencing) and it is startling. The landscape is transformed from the bare green hills that are associated with Scottish glens, to what they should be. A mixture of savanna like glades, forests and open areas. As it stands, nothing regenerates as it is eaten as soon as it pops above the ground. Eventually nothing grows as mature trees die away without regeneration.
You can see the effect in glen feshie too, although here deer have been culled. Trees are beginning to regenerate and climb up the sides of the glen. It's pretty amazing to witness the transformation over the last 20 years
With the return of the trees and vegetation growth comes the habitat that encourages other flaura and fauna, everything wins.
It's not just about trees, we're not talking about returning to some dark medieval forest covering the land. That probably didn't exist, rather it's a mix of habitats.
Personally I don't have an issue with deer stalking for money, food or both, but why it can't be carried out in amongst a natural habitat of woodlands and savanna I have no idea. Perhaps the Victorian construct of stalking deer across a bald hillside using only guile and a sniper rifle is too strong a romance to let go.
It's anecdotal on my part, but in early spring I regularly see dead deer that have starved on the hill. There isn't enough food for the numbers and they die a miserable death
I have to say I am somewhat concerned about where this all goes if we see a change in Scottish government in 2026.
@Gordi, not one of Anders ones, this was on Deeside. we did hear LOTS about the Danish guy though. Very Marmite, it seems..
No not one of Anders ones. I wont say any more than that.
Personally I don’t have an issue with deer stalking for money, food or both, but why it can’t be carried out in amongst a natural habitat of woodlands and savanna I have no idea.
Because when I am paying x grand for a weeks stalking I want to have a nice trophy head or two on my wall by the end of it.
I am not going to be giving a tip or coming back next year if all I have is memories, mostly of being eaten by midges.
So the estate better ensure there are a lot of deer fairly easily available (obviously I want a mild impression of making an effort) for me to shoot which results in the knackered landscape.
Because when I am paying x grand for a weeks stalking I want to have a nice trophy head or two on my wall by the end of it.
i still find it wierd that this a UK specific issue, pretty much everywhere else somedays you shoot something, some days you dont
@kormoran I agree with everything you’re saying, and when we’ve already got an over-borne deer population it seems morally wrong to feed wild deer over the winter and farm deer for release to keep the population high for a very small number of stalkers, while contributing to environmental devastation by over-grazing, in one of the most environmentally deplete countries in Europe. Really we need to be culling wild deer (+/- eating wild venison which is cheap and tasty) to reduce grazing, and make the remaining population healthier.
Given that AIUI the SNP have hardly been a by-word for action on the hunting industry why is a change of government a worry?
Given that AIUI the SNP have hardly been a by-word for action on the hunting industry why is a change of government a worry?
In a nutshell - they could be worse.
In a nutshell – they could be worse.
the right of the SNP are in favour of hunting shooting and fishing. Fergus Ewing got sidelined but he and others are very much opposed to controls on bloodsports. I doubt labour would be worse.
I doubt labour would be worse.
A lab/con coalition though? I don't know.
the right of the SNP are in favour of hunting shooting and fishing.
I don't automatically see why you can't be in favour of hsf and habitat restoration. Unless you only want the bald landscape that we have
A lab/con coalition though?
Is such a thing likely?
I don’t automatically see why you can’t be in favour of hsf and habitat restoration.
No, me neither. But I'd suggest hunting in a restored landscape is going to be much more of a challenge of skill than either driven grouse shooting or deer 'stalking' across grazed-flat moorland, and I'm not sure that's what the shooting estates' customers want.
A lab/con coalition though?
Is such a thing likely?
Probably not in a formal sense. But getting policy through, in a parliament where you don't have a majority, requires compromise to be made to Garner support from the other parties. It's not difficult to see areas around land management being softened or rowed back. That's not a criticism, it's how you find the common ground and move forward
I don't personally think grouse shoots are in danger of disappearing because the appropriate habitat for that pastime would in my view remain. I think there is greater pressure, at least in the shorter term, from the general distaste of the practice.
As far as deer stalking, it strikes me that getting closer to the quarry is easier amongst vegetation. I honestly don't know what stalking customers want as part of the experience, but I reckon there's a large element of tradition in it. A tradition that includes razed and denuded landscape.
Less deer in a biodiversity rich environment surely means bigger, healthier deer with a premium on their head. The alternative seems to be shooting fish in a barrel.
I don’t automatically see why you can’t be in favour of hsf and habitat restoration. Unless you only want the bald landscape that we have
You can - Marr lodge with sold with the proviso it must remain run as a sporting estate IIRC They do "walk up shooting" with bags of a couple rather than driven shooting with bags of hundreds. They are increasing biodiversity on the estate
As far as deer stalking, it strikes me that getting closer to the quarry is easier amongst vegetation. I honestly don’t know what stalking customers want as part of the experience,
All sorts from what I know - from sitting in a hide in woodland and shooting any deer that walks past to yomping over moorland for miles to take a long distance shot. The estates vary hugely in approach and biodiversity / deer numbers
All sorts from what I know – from sitting in a hide in woodland and shooting any deer that walks past to yomping over moorland for miles to take a long distance shot. The estates vary hugely in approach and biodiversity / deer numbers
So it seems perfectly possible to satisfy lots of varying interests
If you go back to the affric example - which let's face it is sadly the only one at the moment - you see a mix of landscape all within one glen. Lower wooded areas, scrubby and more open trees and undergrowth, and then higher slopes, corries and ridges. In that one glen there appears to be a whole range of hunting possibilities should that be your desire.
I'll go and try to find it, but I read an interesting blog about the 'scientific evidence' behind the Nature Scot deer population density recommendations to enable natural regrowth.
The summary was: we've seen environmental creep. So many deer for so long that our research suggests culling a few is beneficial, forgetting that the recommendations back in the 1940's, 1950's even 1960's were even lower still. So 'we' 'accept' a higher number of deer is 'good', but forget that a lower number again is better...
Parkswatch of course...