I have saved this one for Friday as it's a bit long, but what a watch for anyone interested. I must admit to not knowing a lot about Group B other than the cars that it left us, until i watched this, It conveys just how minmindbogglingly Batshit crazy it was.
Imagine the TDF crowd up Alp d'huez with formula one cars whizzing past at 100 MPH and you get the idea. Its amazing appeal was also its downfall. After watching this it is hard to see how they could have carried on with it.
A few other interesting things in the vid....The XJ 220 was built by jag to compete in Group B road racing against the likes of the Porsche 959, but the demise of the Group B rallying put paid to the road series as well.
Enjoy
and to finish with....Whats your favorite Group B car ?
Well if you had of asked me before watching this I would have said the Lancia S4 of course, but I think i have changed my mind
I give you the mental Peugeot 205 T16
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RS200 would be mine. I never saw them in action at the WRC, but saw plenty at Rallycross circuits shortly after Group B was outlawed.
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Lancia 037 of course...although that's the least expected answer to the question I guess as people assume that Group B had to be 4wd...
Has to be the Metro.
From this 45hp
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To this 400hp
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Gotta love a good Group B rally car! Up there with the legendary status of Group C Le mans cars for me!
RS200 for me too, they're just so naughty - pretty much Peak Group B - not based on any road car, no ****s given ground up Rally Weapon, of course sadly killed spectators in crashes. The Race car was meant to be quicker 0-60 than an F1 car of the day and the Evo Road Car held the 0-60-0 for a road car for years and years, nothing could touch it.
The XJ200 link is a strange one, meant to be a Group B car, but it would have been a odd one - it would have been HUGE next the to Metros and 205s with massive over-hangs, not great for rallying, but who knows what it looked like when it was a Saturday afternoon project. Ironically when the recession came and they had to cut costs - they dropped the 4WD and the V12 - but it actually ended up with a Group B engine, sort of - it's Turbo V6 engine started life in the Metro 6R4 (minus the Turbos).
I love Group B. I wish I was able to appreciate it when it was actually around. I became fascinated by it through a few years spent in the RS Owners Club. I love how bonkers they are.
If I has the money in my pocket it would be the RS200, and a homologation model of an rs200, 205 T16 or Audi Quattro would be very high up my lottery winning list of things to buy.
I'll never forget the RSOC annual show at Silverstone when 50 odd rs200 were parked up next to each other.
The OPs video has been added to my watch later list. Cheers! Looks fantastic
The XJ220 was a Group B Sports Car, they were also done to the same rules for a short while.
S4 gets my vote, just completely bonkers! Turbocharged [i]and[/i] supercharged with the drivers sat [b]ON[/b] the fuel tank and the bodywork is only cosmetic
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Not RS200! I've been in two - they felt like they'd been thrown together in Fords lunch break & both had alarming smell of petrol inside, the second one caught fire a few months after my ride.
Fave has to the S1 Quattro
Milky have you seen this
Can't see what the problem was 😯
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more here: [url= https://www.carthrottle.com/post/these-incredible-gifs-show-why-group-b-was-the-ultimate-era-for-rally/ ]https://www.carthrottle.com/post/these-incredible-gifs-show-why-group-b-was-the-ultimate-era-for-rally/[/url]
The world needs this sort of insanity back in it!
Can I have the Lancia please? With someone to maintain it though. A mate had one. It NEVER ran right, and was an absolute money-pit
Watching group B cars in FOD, was like being Pebble dashed at the same time as standing next to a 21 gun salute.
Bit of trivia for you. The rear lights and door handles on RS200s came from the Mk1 Sierra, it was a real parts bin special of a car.
The 205 T16 has to be my favourite Group B. My mum had a bog standard 205 when i was a kid and it was mindblowing as a youngster to see something that looked similar blatting round a forest at that speed.
Also had a big soft spot for the 405 T16 rally raid too. Had a toy version of that picked up in france that was my favourite toy
Yellow one? I had that too!
I remember watching a round of the RAC at Sutton Park - 20,000 plus spectators. The time span from seeing them come round the corner to the car passing didn't seem possible. The Audi's seemed fast until the Peugeots came through. Felt like we could touch the cars as they went past. Such an experience.
My favourite was also the Peugeot 205T16 - I saw them for real in Sutton Park Birmingham - about 1985'ish.
The ...door handles on RS200s came from the Mk1 Sierra
It was the whole door, modified a bit, that came from a Sierra 😆
I assume the original vid is the BBC documentary that reappears on BBC4 every now and again(?)
The Delta S4 that Henri Toivonen died in was insane. As above, the bodywork was a few kg of eggshell, the speed and power phenomenal and the crew sat on top of the lightweight fuel tanks.
Add in laissez-faire race organisation and safety, but mostly just nuts spectators and you have a recipe for certain disaster. Wasn't it the Portuguese spectators who were the most bonkers? I seem to remember that a fair number of them stood on the outside of corner exits trying to touch the cars 8O. Some of those same people are on the film lamenting the lives lost - absolutely nuts.
A very exciting time in Rallying, saw them on the RAC a couple of times.
My favourite was the British underdog MG Metro 6R4, there are two at the Gaydon motor museum, the Williams Grand Prix Engineering prototype would make a great street sleeper it look so much like a ordinary MG Metro.
After Group B ended, some of the unsold Clubman spec 6R4's were converted to road cars, trim and sound deadening etc added, a friend of mine encountered one, managed to keep it in sight until the road got a bit wiggley, it then disappeared very quickly indeed.
The Delta S4 that Henri Toivonen died in was insane. As above, the bodywork was a few kg of eggshell, the speed and power phenomenal and the crew sat on top of the lightweight fuel tanks.
and (allegedly) nitrous hidden in a dummy fire extinguisher. Which also wouldn't have helped in his crash and the subsequent fire.
This is my brother's car:
Wasn't it the Portuguese spectators who were the most bonkers?
They were barking mad, though I did once hear that on the Circuit of Ireland the organisers used to plant wellies in concrete alongside the stage the day before, then plant Irishmen in them for the stage.
Best car? Lots of very pretty ones but for me the sheer brutality of the Quattro Sport sums up the era. Personally I preferred Group 4.
Don't forget the ferrari 308 gtb rally car.
Got to be an RS200 though, that beehive dumpvalve is an aural delight
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Nice Eksay
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righog - hadn't seen that, he's one very lucky bloke 😯
After Group B ended, some of the unsold Clubman spec 6R4's were converted to road cars, trim and sound deadening etc added, a friend of mine encountered one, managed to keep it in sight until the road got a bit wiggley, it then disappeared very quickly indeed.
I've been a passenger in one, very surreal experience looking at a Metro dash etc but doing supercar speeds 😯
bigyinn - MemberBit of trivia for you. The rear lights and door handles on RS200s came from the Mk1 Sierra, it was a real parts bin special of a car.
The McLaren F1 has the rear lights from a Bus and door mirrors from a VW - "parts bin special" it is not.
Truth is, designing and homologating switchgear and trim parts costs a fortune, if you're designing a hatchback that going to be made in the millions it doesn't really matter - R&D cost is divided by each unit, so comes to pennies an item if you're building 200 cars it's a huge cost so there's a very long tradition of very expensive, very exclusive cars using little bits and bobs from mainstream vehicles.
The list is endless - Aston's used to be full of ford bits, now they're full of Volvo bits, their V8s are modified Ford engines that were originally designed for a Volvo. Ferraris are full Fiat bits, Pagani might be very proud of their partnership with Mercedes AMG for it's engines, but I doubt they're so keen to talk about their Rover 200 Climate Control, the fancy Key for the Veyron that can be used to change the way it drives is apart from a nice cover the same one you get for a Polo.
Yeah the RS200 probably feels shady as **** to sit in, but a lot of low volume cars do - especially back then. They don't exactly advertise it, but it's a lot easier to design a very expensive, fast car, than it is a cheap (relatively) everyday one. If Ford spent a couple of years and millions of pounds to develop Door Handles and Windscreens (another Sierra bit) for a race car, you'd question their sanity.
Mr. Ferrari 488GTB owner might feel very smug sat at the lights next to Mr. Fiesta 1.0 Ecoboost but the Ford would have cost many multiples more to design, like staggering amounts more and is in 95% of tangible, practical ways the better car.
Mr. Ferrari 488GTB owner might feel very smug sat at the lights next to Mr. Fiesta 1.0 Ecoboost but the Ford would have cost many multiples more to design, like staggering amounts more and is in 95% of tangible, practical ways the better car.
Whilst I get the sentiment, I don't entirely agree with that. My brother and his girlfriend (along with someone who posts on here) work for a large research and engineering 'company' that does an awful lot of work for a super car company. The volume of work in just the tub alone is mind boggling. Maybe Ferrari's of old might fit the above statement but the newer stuff is leaps and bounds ahead of Ford and such.
I sometimes wonder what the cars would be like now if group B had continued.
Makes parts of me tingle......
Righog - he had a 6R4 before that, he took me for a spin in it one day. It was like being in a supercharged tractor, it was a bloody noisy thing. Whenever he drove it at Castle Combe he had to put mufflers on the exhaust because it failed the sound levels!
The bloke he sold it to put it in a ditch the day he bought it!!
I think he bought both of them from John price (he normally has some nice toys on sale).
Whilst I get the sentiment, I don't entirely agree with that. My brother and his girlfriend (along with someone who posts on here) work for a large research and engineering 'company' that does an awful lot of work for a super car company. The volume of work in just the tub alone is mind boggling. Maybe Ferrari's of old might fit the above statement but the newer stuff is leaps and bounds ahead of Ford and such.
I not saying they're simple, far far from. It's just that it's cheaper to design a car that costs a lot of money to buy and isn't expected to be as reliable or long lasting.
Ferrari are obviously pretty shy about sales figures - they sell a lot more cars than they'd like buyers to think, but it's estimated they sold 16,000 to 18,000 458s - the predecessor to the 488. They cost about £150k before taxes, so their total revenue from that model was 2.7Bn, give or take. That's £2.7bn to design, build, ship, market and sell those cars. Aside from maybe the 360 to the 430 Ferrari's are usually "all new".
By contrast, when Ford needed to design an "all new" medium sized saloon (the Mondeo here, but it was sold under other brands / names abroad) it spent £5bn on the design alone and that was in 1990! Admittedly a lot of that was spend to devise cheaper ways to mass produce it which meant savings later on and it's been through several revisions since which built on that original investment.
zanelad - Member
I sometimes wonder what the cars would be like now if group B had continued.Makes parts of me tingle......
Watch what happens when the Rally Cross guys get hold of this years WRC cars, reckon it'll be pretty close
Dunno if this will work a scanned photo taken by me, signed by Jonathan Palmer doing rallycross at Brands c.1985
[url= https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/655/32384577714_8c9cdcfbc8_k.jp g" target="_blank">https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/655/32384577714_8c9cdcfbc8_k.jp g"/> [/img][/url][url= https://flic.kr/p/RkHqGb ]CRB153[/url] by [url= https://www.flickr.com/photos/52886695@N04/ ]I'm Not The Alien[/url], on Flickr
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Always had a soft spot for the Opel Ascona 400
I saw the Group B's on the RAC, and then the following year their replacement.
I was so that disappointed the second year, it took another 30 years before I went to see another rally stage 🙂
And there's been a 6R4 here for the last couple of years, along with everything from WRC's to Mk1 Escorts:
http://www.bordercountiesrally.co.uk/
Off-road stages, including the MTB locations of Innerleithen and Yair, quick gravel with lots of up/down - March 18th/
Eskay- your brother's Renault 5 Turbo must be worth an absolute fortune!
I was looking at some standard road ones the other day and they seemed to be around the £85k mark!
Oh and I'll have anything Lancia please, especially the Stratos in Alitalia livery.
I used to love the look of the group B back in the 80's
There was a guy called Stephen Timm whos family had a Ford dealership in Leigh and his everyday vehicle was a red RS200.
Always had a soft spot for the Opel Ascona 400
Opel Ascona, thats a name i've not heard in a long time.
Not sure ths counts, but I loved this one:
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There is rumour of a part restored/in pieces 6r4 locally to me. Hope it gets on the road sooner rather than later!
Which one? All of them... Brig them back and stuff the H&S bollox! The vast majority of fans never got hurt.
We'd happily stand on the outside of a curve watching them come and go. Those twigs they put down were more than enough to protect us.
Group B was great. I think this was a group B car.
I know where there's a real RS200 sitting in storage. I've seen the chassis and wheels and piles of boxes full of original bits. Would be worth hundreds of grands in one piece but it's been sitting there 15 years and I can't see that changing any time soon.
But if you want to see mental cars going wild in the flesh then the British Rallycross Championship starts on the 19th of March at Croft Circuit. Much less restrictive than WRC and way more power/noise.
The RS200 was my favourite too, but from a results perspective, the Peugeot 205-T16 with Juha Kankennan at the wheel was in a different league.
My dad used too co drive in this once it went into private hands, great little car. Light, quick and noisy, embarrassed quite a few more powerful cars on rallies...
This turned up while I was looking at tents, go figure.
[url= http://rallycarsforsale.net/ad-category/for-sale/ ]http://rallycarsforsale.net/ad-category/for-sale/[/url]
So, go scratch that itch.
rwamartin - MemberGroup B was great. I think this was a group B car.
Think "Black Beauty" was a Group4 car
zanelad - MemberI sometimes wonder what the cars would be like now if group B had continued.
[url= http://insidelane.co.uk/group-s-rally-cars-the-forgotten-class/ ]Group S Rally Cars the forgotten class[/url]
[url= https://rallygroupbshrine.org/group-s/ ]https://rallygroupbshrine.org/group-s/[/url]
I'm pretty sure Vatanen's Black Escort was Group 4. The Ascona 400 too. I remember turning up to Motoring News road rally events and finding both Group 4 Escorts and an Ascona 400 on the entry list. Our little Chevette wasn't going to cut it!
choppersquad - MemberEskay- your brother's Renault 5 Turbo must be worth an absolute fortune!
I was looking at some standard road ones the other day and they seemed to be around the £85k mark!
I think it is. He bought it several years ago and I think it has doubled in value.
He has had a love affair with R5's since we were younger. He had a Gordini Turbo when he was about 19 (try getting insured on that nowadays!!).
About 10 years ago he bought his first mid-engined Turbo II (road going version). He sold that and bought a 6R4 full-on rally spec crazy machine. Probably the fastest acceleration I have ever experienced in a car.
He then sold that and bought the R5 in the link. He has since bought a 'Le Car' R5 turbo that he intends to restore.
I have photo's of all of the cars but I think they are on a back-up drive.
As I said in the previous post, he bought most of them from John Price, I have just had a quick look and he only has this beauty for sale at the moment:
http://www.johnpricerallying.com/for-sale-and-hire
Edit:
I forgot that his first ever car was a R5 TL that he wrote off by driving into a wall when trying to dodge a squirrel!
But if you want to see mental cars going wild in the flesh then the British Rallycross Championship starts on the 19th of March at Croft Circuit. Much less restrictive than WRC and way more power/noise.
Cheers for that, I went years ago (think it was the European round) Brilliant day out!
Think "Black Beauty" was a Group4 car
Yes, of course.
https://rallygroupbshrine.org/group-s/
Thanks for that link. Very useful website!
If you want to build your own RS200 click here-[url= http://www.evo200.com/store.html ]LINK[/url]
Crap website, good kit. The demo car is amazing.
"Not RS200! I've been in two - they felt like they'd been thrown together in Fords lunch break"
Well they were made by Reliant, of Robin fame.
When the plug was pulled on GpB I can remember rows of unsold road spec 200's at the Factory in Tamworth.
RS200 engines were only designed to last about 10hrs before they needed a rebuild! For me it was the original Audi Quattro in standard form (pre S1) with Walter Rohrl peddling it in Corsica ( or Portugal.) Henry Toivonen was probably the fastest driver of his era. I heard a tale that Toivonen did a lap at Estoril in a Lancia Delta Integrale in tarmac spec and his time would have put him fourth on the grid for that years F1 race!
Does anybody remember Will Gollops Bi turbo 6R4 rallycross car! Mental quick that was.
I seem to remembe a Ford driven by Malcolm Wilson being gutted by fire in Cardrona . The local fire brigade were in attendance but the Ford team had it covered up and whipped away pretty damn quick.
Thanks all loads of interesting info in the comments. I knew nothing of the Group S cars.
Unfortunately I will almost certainly be at work for the Croft Rallycross or I would have gone, as its just around the corner from me, but a great heads up for others interested.
[url= http://www.croftcircuit.co.uk/events ]Croft Calendar[/url]
Ref the RS200, where a poster said earlier:
Well they were made by Reliant, of Robin fame.
From another forum, quoting a guy that worked on the RS200 project:
The RS200 was not built by Reliant. It was built by Ford, the project director being Mike Moreton, who had already been the planning genius behind the Sierra RS Cosworth, and who would later go on to do the same job with the Sierra Cosworth 4x4, and the Escort RS Cosworth. He was later head-hunted by Tom Walkinshaw to master-mind the Jaguar XJ220 project.
Ford hired all the staff and fitters, Ford managed the plant. Reliant was not involved.
Reliant, however, provided most of the exterior body panels, which were built in GRP. The chassis, though, was provided by Arch, Ford/JKF did the engines themselves, and FF did the four-wheel-drive transmissions.
ii) The RS200 was not built at Tamworth, and never even went close to a three-wheeler, or the three-wheeler plant. It was built at a factory at Shenstone, which was six miles away. This was an ex-Reliant plant which had previously built engines for the three-wheelers, but which had been totally cleared. Ford found it while casting around in 1985 for somewhere to build the cars, and took up a lease for themselves. Reliant was not involved.
iii) Although the Reliant connection was not close, a number of the assembly staff had previously worked at Reliant, but had recently been maded redundant because Reliant was having a hard time. Some Reliant people also build moulds and mouldings for the body panels.
iv) Ford initiated, managed and completed the programme, with Mike Moreton at the helm. Reliant was never involved in the management of the project.
An ordinary calendar from 1991......
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oh hang on a minute!
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Found in a property I've just bought
b r - Member
I saw the Group B's on the RAC, and then the following year their replacement.I was so that disappointed the second year, it took another 30 years before I went to see another rally stage
This ^^^^^
I was obsessed with rallying as a kid, all Group B stuff. Posters covered my room, signed stuff. ComputerVisions office was about a mile from my house, so the PR lady used to give me loads of 6R4 stuff. Was gutted at the end of 1986 when it finished. I remember watching the 1987 Monte Carlo - and as I feared it was a massive disappointment.
Never really followed rallying since. It got ok when the Lancia Integrale evolved. But meh...
From this....
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To this...
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Body language of the spectators sums it up. Having said that... spectator brain failure contributed to its downfall....
Any of you watching WRC currently? If not, have a look, rally Mexico up next, all been turned on it's head this year, cars to rival Grp B in terms of appearance and much faster, 'only 380bhp' but bags of torque, huge aero, mega suspension, more sideways, Mexico is the first gravel round, should be wild.
Does anybody remember Will Gollops Bi turbo 6R4 rallycross car! Mental quick that was.
Whitstable Will Gollop. Saw him drive many times at Lydden Hill and Brands. There was a real buzz around rally cross in the post Group B days. It was great to see these cars being put through their paces.
I haven't been for quite some time, but I think some of today's rally cross cars are just as capable. A great day out, if there is a circuit near you.
I remember Will Gollop at Nutts Corner Norn Ireland in his Metro, digging power trenchs in the rallycross track.
core - Member
Any of you watching WRC currently? If not, have a look, rally Mexico up next, all been turned on it's head this year, cars to rival Grp B in terms of appearance and much faster, 'only 380bhp' but bags of torque, huge aero, mega suspension, more sideways, Mexico is the first gravel round, should be wild.
Cheers Core I will watch out for it, its a bit easy to live life in the past. Have you any ideas what the best way to see it is ?
core - Member
Any of you watching WRC currently? If not, have a look, rally Mexico up next, all been turned on it's head this year, cars to rival Grp B in terms of appearance and much faster, 'only 380bhp' but bags of torque, huge aero, mega suspension, more sideways, Mexico is the first gravel round, should be wild.
Sounds interesting. Will check it out.
A good chum of mine works for Ford and he occasionally signs me in for a perv around this lot. It's splendid. 8)
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Cheers Core I will watch out for it, its a bit easy to live life in the past. Have you any ideas what the best way to see it is ?
Red Bull TV does the official coverage, hundreds of YouTube videos per event these days too!
Thanks Legend, Red Bull easy enough to get on the Fire Stick 🙂
S4 for me, please (or non-Group B Alitalia Tratos), but...
I heard a tale that Toivonen did a lap at Estoril in a Lancia Delta Integrale in tarmac spec and his time would have put him fourth on the grid for that years F1 race!
... has got to be an urban myth, hasn't it?
No it was a fact.
Such was the power of Group B at the end.
[url= http://www.redbull.com/en/motorsports/offroad/stories/1331586320250/henri-toivonen-at-estoril-exploring-the-myth ]http://www.redbull.com/en/motorsports/offroad/stories/1331586320250/henri-toivonen-at-estoril-exploring-the-myth[/url]
No it was a fact.Such was the power of Group B at the end.
F1 cars of that era were qualifying with over 1000bhp - were they getting more than that out of an S4?
Edit - S4 was about 400kg heavier, too - nah, never happened.
Top thread. Added to my faves for detailed consumption later.
A good chum of mine works for Ford and he occasionally signs me in for a perv around this lot. It's splendid.
maroon coloured Ka?
BT Sport and Channel 5 also doing WRC highlights this year.
A lad i went to school with Andy in Portsmouth dropped a Metro rally car engine into a classic Mini rally car but mid section in the car, not a full on mad Group B, but the engine produced over 280bhp, it took some engineering and he sold it to a guy over in Japan where apparently they love fast Minis.
A friend of his last year reverse engineered a Mk 1 Golf to have an air-cooled Beetle engine in the back, think it was just a case of showing off and showing that it could be done!
If you love Group B, you'll love Riding Balls of Fire, a film by Helmut Deimel.
100 mins of stage footage and interviews with Stig, Ari, Michelle, Walter, Timo etc.
It features the darker side too with car vs spectator clips and a bit about Toivennon and Crestas' deaths.
Very good.
RS200 for me
Whilst mechanicing at a Peugoet dealership, I had a short blast in a road going version of a 205 T16. Not stupidly quick as it wasn't particularly tuned - but a real privilege to drive something so rare
I read somewhere that the works mechanics would often find severed fingers in air vents after the stage - proper grim!!
