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ernie, I pointed out large amounts of spending was for the benefit of ordinary Greek people as you where suggested it was skimmed off on corruption etc. Again you where trying to create a justification / moral argument for why defaulting on the debt was OK
....as you where suggested it was skimmed off on corruption etc.
No I didn't. As far as I am aware the only person who has talked about corruption in Greece is [i]you[/i]. IIRC you claimed something along the lines that Greece was the most corrupt country in Europe, which isn't true btw.
Again you where trying to create a justification / moral argument for why defaulting on the debt was OK
What I am doing is correcting your false and factually incorrect claims. I have not made the case 'for why defaulting on the debt is OK'.
The form of this thread seems to be like many others where I explain the reality of situations and why government policy is at is and we get a stream of personal abuse. Best of all accused of posting lies. It really does make me chuckle.
The form of this thread is familiar - you post some offensive and/or racist nonsense and back it up with facts that you invented yourself, or links that don't say what you think they say.
For example - did you actually look at the ENFIA tax rates link? It gives the rates for a main tax and a supplementary tax. You quoted only the supplementary tax rates. By the way - the other day I got a leaflet through the door trying to scare me by saying that unless I voted Tory i might be hit by a mansion tax of ... 1%. So it seems that Greeks are not the only ones who don't like taxes - it's a vote winner here!!
The other link you posted details how people who worked all their lives are now saddled with real estate that is worth very little but that they have to pay tax on, which they can't afford - the same asset rich cash poor people who are now worried about a mansion tax. Except it's not a mansion, it's a bit of land in the middle of nowhere which has now been valued at pre-crash levels.
It simply boils down to
No. it doesn't. It's more like you lent a mate some money that you knew he would never be able to pay back (let's gloss over for now why you would do that) and now he asks you for some more time to pay. Do you rejoice in your own rightness, and insist that he sticks to the payments, even if he has to sell his car which he needs to get to work, and it means that his wife and kids go hungry and he STILL can never keep up with your payments? Or do you work out a way for him to get back on his feet and you get at least some of your money back?
Lets not forget the US Governments national Debt stands at:$18,000,000,000,000.
Aaaaaand in one short sentence you immediately undermine anything you might have said which made sense.
DrJ - MemberFor example - did you actually look at the ENFIA tax rates link? It gives the rates for a main tax and a supplementary tax. You quoted only the supplementary tax rates.
From €2-€9 per square metre, depending on the location and age of building, among other factors. There are exemptions that can be applied for but for us it didn't seem worth bothering to do this as we're in an area and type of building that has a €3 per square metre rating and so €300-ish per year seemed reasonable enough. It's probably about 25% less in real terms than we pay in the "grim North".
Where we are I don't see everyone trying to find ways to avoid paying this either - the few people (all Greek, btw) that I've spoken to about it seem to be of the opinion that if they want such things as regular rubbish collection, mains water and streetlighting then someone has to pay for it.
But then I'm the first to admit that I only have an old man's very blinkered view of life, both here and in Greece.
In that respect I'm like my father was - I try and make things as good as possible for me and my family while accepting that I'm never going to have the clout, intelligence or influence to do much more than that.
That's why I don't get involved in political or economics arguments - I'm not clever enough.
No. it doesn't. It's more like you lent a mate some money that you knew he would never be able to pay back (let's gloss over for now why you would do that) and now he asks you for some more time to pay. Do you rejoice in your own rightness, and insist that he sticks to the payments, even if he has to sell his car which he needs to get to work, and it means that his wife and kids go hungry and he STILL can never keep up with your payments? Or do you work out a way for him to get back on his feet and you get at least some of your money back?
Hahaha. That's actually funny. The ECB and Greece aren't mates. It's a BANK FFS and they aren't about to throw money away just so that a newly elected government can effect some popular but unrealistic campaign promises at their cost.
Hahaha. That's actually funny. The ECB and Greece aren't mates.
If you stop laughing for a moment you might realise how dumb your comment is. The ECB is there to "help", it's not some sort of business designed purely to make a profit.
HTH
@AndyR - I gather that you have property in Greece? Then you'll be aware that the database used to estimate your tax is replete with mistakes(*), and that if you dispute your bill you first have to pay it and then seek an amendment via the usual bureaucratic channels. Someone has to pay for rubbish to be collected, for sure, but suddenly imposing a wealth tax seems a rather harsh way to do it. They raised about 3bn Euros from a population of 10 million, which works out to about 300 per person, so 1000-ish per household. That's a lot of money when there is 25% unemployment and a minumum wage of 750 per month.
(*) including that the property being taxed may actually not exist.
@wrecker - the money is gone, the question is how best to get some of it back. B bankrupting the debtor?
The ECB is there to "help", it's not some sort of business designed purely to make a profit.
The IMF is also here purely to save kittens
The ECB is there to "help", it's not some sort of business designed purely to make a profit.
😀 The ECB is there to administer financial policy, not to throw money away. It's not the ECBs money to start with. You can throw words like "dumb" around all you like, the point stands. They aren't mates, to suggest otherwise is....dumb.
@wrecker - the money is gone, the question is how best to get some of it back. B bankrupting the debtor?
What would your bank do if it were you?
Now, where's THM. This thread needs a bit more insight from someone who knows what he's talking about (yes, I know that I'm not helping).
Do you rejoice in your own rightness, and insist that he sticks to the payments, even if he has to sell his car which he needs to get to work, and it means that his wife and kids go hungry and he STILL can never keep up with your payments? Or do you work out a way for him to get back on his feet and you get at least some of your money back?
If your mate acts like Greece and makes no effort to even address his problems, then you'd be out of your mind to give him more money. Cut your losses and run.
If your mate acts like Greece and makes no effort to even address his problems
But that's not happening. Electing Syriza is precisely the first step to addressing the problems, because the other parties are too deeply mired in the sleaze that created them in the first place.
Really they want to put a load more people back onto the government payroll, how is that going to help anything. Plus cancelled selling their port to the Chinese, who were paying for it to be upgraded. Right now money is leaving the country fast, with no seeming plan to stop it.
What would your bank do if it were you?
I have no idea, but coincidentally I am in a similar situation myself. A guy owes me money and has signed a court agreement to pay, plus interest. In fact he has repaid me next to nothing. What shall I do? Enforce the agreement and drive him to bankruptcy, and see nothing? Or wait a bit for his business to pick up and get some of my money back?
The form of this thread seems to be like many others where I explain the reality of situations and why government policy is at is and we get a stream of personal abuse.
The stream of personal abuse seems to consist mainly of people explaining how your "facts" are wrong.
because the other parties are too deeply mired in the sleaze that created them in the first place.
Its more fundamental than that. Tax receipts, spend on public sector, increase in public sector staffing over the years.
The current government is popular. In a years time they'll be blaming the EU for the predicament to stop them from being punched and kicked in the street.
The ECB and Greece aren't mates. It's a BANK FFS
That doesn't exclude them from showing some basic compassion. humanity and fairness towards the Greek people, who are being impoverished as a result of the corrupt, fraudulent and criminal actions of their previous governments and colluding bankers, politicians and eurocrats who created this situation.
How many kids have to faint in school from malnutrition before the banks and EU governments say enough is enough? How many people need to be living on the streets? How many people should die from lack of healthcare? How many people should be unemployed and living off meagre state handouts?
In a years time they'll be blaming the EU for the predicament to stop them from being punched and kicked in the street.
I think they will be correct in blaming them.
Greece has to sort it out the EU has to let them do this without an excess of suffering.
So common sense prevails and despite all the posturing and photo ops Greece [s]signs[/s] (EDIT proposes and will sign is my guess) a six month extension of the current legally binding agreement. No choice as the Greek electorate want to stay in the euro and doing anything else would have lead to immediate collapse of the banks and government finances and a euro exit.
Greece can now try and negotiate a reduction in some of the the specific targets particularly the size of the budget surplus required going forward.
What I don't know in the short term, ie the next 6 months, how they will pay for some of the promises they have already made.
@dazh - kids don't have to faint in schools if the Greeks actually collect some more taxes or sell off some of the assets which they had previously agreed to do so, like the port the Chinese had agreed to buy. As per ernie's suggestion they should stop spending so much on military hardware too.
kids don't have to faint in schools if the Greeks actually collect some more taxes
Best way to increase the tax take is to generate more income to tax. Pushing the economy to disaster only reduces tax receipts.
DrJ - I did read the piece and yes it was the supplemental part. I also did a back of the envelope calculation yesterday very similar to you and got a very similar answer - ie about €9,333 per household (2.8bn / 3m guestimate). Always potentially misleading quoting averages but that doesn't seem so bad to me, not least when a train driver earns €100,000 - frankly given the mire Greece is in he can afford an extra €5,000 no ? When they abolished the personal allowance here in the UK for those earning more than £125k that's an extra tax of £4,000-£5,000 pa
that doesn't seem so bad to me, not least when a train driver earns €100,000
There ya go again.
"the percentage of employees who receive less than 1,000 euros per month skyrocketed from 37% in 2011, to 53.7% in 2013"
http://greece.greekreporter.com/2014/08/19/ika-average-salary-drops-in-greece/
[url= http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/international/greece-repaid-debts-ages-ago-2015021995530 ]Looks like its all sorted[/url] 😀
wrecker - Member
Now, where's THM. This thread needs a bit more insight from someone who knows what he's talking about...
How kind. Would love to help, but currently (still) locked out by a diver wearing a fancy watch .....
Time for Merkel to deal with her dog.
Germany has said no ! 😯
Mr Game Theory has been caught swimming naked
Haha love the Mash @binners
@DrJ - that will be those self employed Greeks who don't declare all of their income, no ? Easiest way in Greece to avoid taxes. Greece used to claim they where a highly entrepreneurial society as so many are self employed, most of the doctors for example.
wrecker - MemberThey aren't mates, to suggest otherwise is....dumb.
And the the ECB is not just a bank like the HSBC or Lloyds either, to say [i]"It's a BANK FFS"[/i] as you did is pretty dumb. Do you also think the Bank of England is just a bank like any other bank?
From the ECB own website :
[i]Acting also as a leading financial authority, we aim to safeguard financial stability and promote European financial integration.[/i]
A bit like the HSBC eh? 😀
Germany has said no !Mr Game Theory has been caught swimming naked
Strangely you seem quite pleased about that. It comes across as a rather vindictive and cold-hearted response. Hardly surprising that the greeks compare them to the Nazis.
I'm aware of what the European Central [b]Bank[/b] does. What it doesn't do is give money away buckshee. You borrow, you repay. You don't get not to repay just because it's not a normal bank like HSBC. As I said, it's not the banks money to give.
Anyways, have the euros just refused the Greeks proposal on refinancing then? What does that mean? Does it look like they are willing to let them defalt? What did the Greeks ask for?
Was hoping for THM to give a better explanation TBH (nudge nudge).
What does that mean?
That they want their pound of flesh? That they want not only to defeat the Greek Govt but to humiliate them also? That they want to send a message to the Greek people that the balance sheets of banks and governments in the rest of Europe are more important than the greeks being able to feed their families? etc...
It's a stupid move IMO. The hubristic germans probably think that this will turn the greek people against Syriza and that they'll be voting for a nice new pliable govt in a few months time, when it'll probably do the opposite. If I were a Greek I'd be thinking that if I'm going to go down, I'm going to take the rest of them with me.
Worth noting its the germans acting alone on this and NOT an EU view
The European commission had described the Greek proposal – widely seen as a climbdown on some of Greece’s key demands – as a positive sign that could pave the way for compromise.
German finance minister has rejected it unilaterally.
They have no interest in compromise and that includes with the rest of the EU
German finance minister has rejected it unilaterally.
I've heard that Wolfgang Schaeuble has an errant hand which spontaneously and without warning
does a nazi salute.
[img] 
[/img]
He finds it most embarrassing apparently.
dazh - Member
"Germany has said no !
Mr Game Theory has been caught swimming naked"Strangely you seem quite pleased about that.
Hence my earlier Schadenfreude comment.
Strangely you seem quite pleased about that. It comes across as a rather vindictive and cold-hearted response.
Fifty Shades of Jambo.
@DrJ - that will be those self employed Greeks who don't declare all of their income, no ? Easiest way in Greece to avoid taxes.
Classic Jambo - you post some bullshit, get called on it with actual facts, and respond with more offensive racist slurs.
Anyways, have the euros just refused the Greeks proposal on refinancing then?
No the Germans (and apparently the Finns, their traditional allies) rejected it. We'll see what happens in the end. Syriza have huge public support, so the Krauts should not be too sure that they will come nicely to heel.
DrJ - Member
@AndyR - I gather that you have property in Greece? Then you'll be aware that the database used to estimate your tax is replete with mistakes(*), and that if you dispute your bill you first have to pay it and then seek an amendment via the usual bureaucratic channels. Someone has to pay for rubbish to be collected, for sure, but suddenly imposing a wealth tax seems a rather harsh way to do it. They raised about 3bn Euros from a population of 10 million, which works out to about 300 per person, so 1000-ish per household. That's a lot of money when there is 25% unemployment and a minumum wage of 750 per month.
Yes - agree with all of that, to be honest. A lot of the database errors probably stem from the updated Land Registry failure a few years ago. Fortunately in our case they're pretty insignificant and I haven't bothered with the hassle of trying to rectify them.
Worth noting its the germans acting alone on this and NOT an EU view
Ah, thanks JY.
I assume that nobody can do anything without ze germans ya?
I assume that nobody can do anything without ze germans ya?
You weren't aware that Germany has very significant clout in Europe as the result of having the largest population and the largest economy? Really?
Would you like me to add a [i]"Hahaha"[/i] wrecker, as you contemptuously did after DrJ's post when you bizarrely suggested that the ECB is just "a bank"?
Not sure why I got lots of pseudo nazi references from my post tbh
I missed Jams post as I dont bother reading them these days though you can get the gist from the vitriolic retorts
Whatever erne. im not plying your stupid little game so hush it up, eh?
Of course not, you prefer your game of attempting to ridicule other posters while making pretty daft comments yourself.
So you're pullin up someone for saying something stupid who was pulling up someone for saying something stupid?
Do you see yourself as some kind of tough guy crusader?
I've done my damnest to ignore the shite bawling by you (again) and some other posters and here I am shite bawling with the shite bawler. That's it from me. You can carry on swaggering around and talking rubbish if you like.
Worth noting its the germans acting alone on this and NOT an EU view
[b]Not true at all[/b]. Many (most / all ?) of the eurogroup members rejected it almost immediately, see the various quotes from yesterday and today. As I posted before the eurogroup (members of the single currency) are the ones who leant the money. The EU commission is the collection of politicians particularly focused on the political success of their EU superstate project and the job security it brings. The EU can talk all it likes but it isn't the one controlling the money Greece needs.
Classic Jambo - you post some bullshit, get called on it with actual facts, and respond with more offensive racist slurs.
I don't think in my years posting here at STW I have ever been "called" on an argument with these so called "actual facts". Most definitely not on this thread. If the Greeks paid their taxes the Germans wouldn't have made the very deliberate and public offer to send them 500 tax inspectors, no ? Schaulbe made the point of reminding Vouvakis of this at the first meeting between and him.
The Greeks will cave in and agree a 6 month extension to the current package with all its strings. They will spend the next 6 months negotiating a new agreement which will have some concessions, like a reduced budget surplus target - probably keeping current level of 1.5% for longer. The fundamental principals and the detail of the prior agreement will stand largely intact.
I don't think in my years posting here at STW I have ever been "called" on an argument with these so called "actual facts". Most definitely not on this thread.
I think that statement is eloquent testimony to the fantasy work that you inhabit.
Indeed and also why I gave up engaging with him
Its futile.
No one on this thread has defended you and everyone has amde, with varying degrees of politeness, the same point about you and your facts.
fantasy work
😀
In general terms I have been a lender for 30 years, portfolios up to $20bn. Never touched anything to do with Greece for the reasons I have stated on this thread. Not least having heard and witnessed first hand what its like to live there and try and set up a business there by my business partner in the 1990's Elena Amrosiadou. I have made plenty of investments in emerging markets too, Indonesia, Vietnam, India, China, Eastern Europe etc
Would you like to point out a fact you think I have been wrong about ? Did you see JY was totally incorrect about Germany being alone ?
I baseball terms I am hitting 100% on this thread as far as facts and opinions go so far.
No one on this thread has defended you and everyone has amde, with varying degrees of politeness, the same point about you and your facts.
I don't need defending. I am totally right about what I say on this one. Like so many other threads this situation is going to play out exactly like I said for exactly the reasons I said. The alternative is Greece is going to default and be kicked out of the euro and then it will understand real hardship. Syirza understands that, I think.
Amusingly I agreed with [ and basically repeated with a quote] what you said re germany.
Despite this I was wrong and you were right...forgive me.
Sums up debates with you rather nicely.
jambalaya - Member
Germany has said no !
as for 100 % right Its hard to see how anyone can read this thread and consider you were 100 % right on everything you said.
No one is ever 100 % right and you dont buck this trend.
I baseball terms I am hitting 100% on this thread as far as facts and opinions go so far.
Really, mate - you're dreaming.
Here is Elena talking about a potential Greek default back in 2011 - skip to 4:50 (time specific url not working on STW so you'll have to do it manually)
JY my caveat was "this thread". As I've told you before my tagline on another forum is "Often wrong, seldom in doubt" - firmly tongue in cheek don't you know 8)
BTW you should hang out here, I was one of the most left wing people on there. it's all relative 😉 [url= http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/index.php?s=6376c2f83b1a46724fd4e8f0d65b24c1&showforum=2 ]Political Anarchy[/url]
What thread do you think I am talking about ?
Its all even on this page 😕
Anyway you will still be at 100 % accurate so I respectfully retreat.
Well. Who won then?
imnotverygood - Member
Well. Who won then?
I'm not sure, as I see it jambalya thinks he's won everyone else thinks he's lost.
The boot makers (think can and roads)
Monday - the devil is in the detail. How much has Tsipras given up (everything but semantics?)
The losers - the Greeks . Plus ca change.
Bllx, here comes that bloody diver again! Adios....
Who won then?
The EU. Syriza's slavish devotion to the EU and the EZ ultimately guaranteed a predictable outcome. They have until Monday to come up with a list of measures which will please the Troika. I'm sure they won't fail.
So....
How many more bail out payments?
As I said earlier. All will keep it going in the hope it'll be someone else's problem.
I predict Greece will exit at circa 750bn debt.
If I understand it, whilst the Greek govt have pledged to honour repayment terms, how they do that is still to be decided? So is it inconceivable that come Monday we could see a the greek rich (assuming there are any left) being completely hammered?
greek rich (assuming there are any left)
Apparently there are more rich Greeks than ever. According to this article there were just two Greek billionaires on the Forbe's rich list at the start of the debt crises in 2010 :
[url= http://www.businessinsider.com/the-wealthiest-greeks-2010-5?op=1&IR=T ]12 Ultra Rich Greeks Who Should Have Bailed Out Greece Themselves[/url]
But then four years later there were fifteen Greek billionaires on the Forbe's rich list, according to this :
[url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Greeks_by_net_worth ]List of Greeks by net worth[/url]
Note that out of a list of 18 of the wealthiest Greeks only 2 have got "poorer" the others have seen their wealth increase.
That there should be plenty of very wealthy Greeks shouldn't come as any great surprise, eg, Greece does have the largest merchant navy in the world - which suggests quite a bit of money sloshing around.
A country's debt problems does not suggest that the very wealthy are getting any poorer. For example when Argentina defaulted on its huge debts it wasn't because the very wealthy had run out of money or become poorer, and the increased debt in the UK doesn't suggest the very wealthy have become poorer.
As a general rule the very wealthy aren't significantly affected by severe recessions, so even with 25% unemployment in Greece that won't include any millionaires.
Although of course severe recessions do affect profits so there is the capacity for less wealth. But according to Forbes it would appear that wealthy Greeks have found a way round that little problem.
Will Syriza present a plan on Monday to the Troika to tax the rich until the pips squeak? Extremely unlikely I would have thought. For all the talk of "far-left" Syriza has shown ever since it assumed power that it is nothing more than a vaguely left-wing social-democratic movement. Challenging the power and wealth of those who have power and wealth is not, and never has been, a social-democratic strategy.
Lots of rich Greeks, but like my old business partner they live/work/run their businesses abroad.
Syriza have agreed (conceded) to stick with the original bailout deal and Troika control and monitoring for 4 months in return for a temporary extension of the bailout. Today (Monday) they have to present detailed written proposals for how they intend to manage the budget thereafter. If these are acceptable to the eurogroup they bailout will be extended. Weekend press suggested the budget proposals will primarily be focused on tax raising initiatives. You would imagine have come so far Syriza will present something rational and acceptable as otherwise with time so short a bank failure/euro exit seems the only alternative.
One bizarre statement from Vouvakis is that he has no idea how much extra tax they will raise. Just highlights how rash were their spending promises, spending money is easy raising it is more difficult.
I'm not sure, as I see it jambalya thinks he's won everyone else thinks he's lost.
@ctk What I said has come to pass, with the exception it's a potential 4 month temporary extension not 6. Syriza had zero room for maneuver so of course they have caved in totally, good news for them is they got elected ie employed, on promises they could not possibly keep. One positive outcome could be if they actually do start collecting some more taxes from the middle and wealthier classes. If I where them I'd swallow their enormous pride and Nazi rhetoric and take the Germans up on their offer of 500 tax inspectors.
None of this will do Varoufakis's academic or a future speaking engagements careers any harm.
I am not asking for nor expecting any admission of this from those debating against me. Frankly being right on this isn't any great victory as the outcome was pretty obvious, Greek capitulation or euro exit and the latter they did not have an electorial mandate for.
Frankly being right on this isn't any great victory as the outcome was pretty obvious, Greek capitulation or euro exit and the latter they did not have an electorial mandate for.
I don't think that was ever in doubt, was it? The subject of "debate", such as it was, was your ideas of what is "right" to do in the context of Europe, not what a bunch of Eurocrats would decide to do.
Coverage from the Guardian today, one post suggested Syriza may end up being supported in any budget votes by the pro-austerity parties as that's what they are signing up to.
Worringly the submission from Greece is said to be broad brushed, I thought the eurogroup had made it pretty clear it needed to see detailed proposals if it where to approve a budget extension.
[url= http://www.theguardian.com/business/live/2015/feb/23/greek-bailout-markeks-rally-ftse-100-reforms-live ]link[/url]
I am not asking for nor expecting any admission of this from those debating against me. Frankly being right on this isn't any great victory as the outcome was pretty obvious
You said it mate, pretty obvious stuff is pretty obvious, hence :
ernie_lynch - MemberSyriza is an alliance of bourgeois liberals and revisionists. It supports EU membership and the Euro. It wishes to "renegotiate" an "agreement" with the conservative politicians and bankers who control EU, they have ruled out any suggestion of taking unilateral action.
Posted 3 weeks ago #
ernie_lynch - MemberSo the bankers and conservative politicians in Berlin weren't prepared to throw a lifeline to the previous conservative government in Athens and give them some breathing space, but they will to a motley crew of one-time student revolutionaries ? LOL!
Posted 3 weeks ago #
But you carry on giving yourself a pat on the head while claiming that you don't want one 🙂
Guardian has un-earthed a copy of their 1962 paper with a story about a Greek Debt deal
[img] 
[/img]
But you carry on giving yourself a pat on the head while claiming that you don't want one
😀 indeed, fair play to you !
So they're basically going back to the electorate to say that they can't deliver on anything they promised (did anyone seriously imagine they would?), and its the same as its ever been. Unless it isn't. In which case it could end up being an awful lot worse. Depending on what mood the Germans are in.
I can see that all going down well then.
[img] 
[/img]
I didn't realise it had got so serious that [i]umbrellas[/i] were being thrown 😯
So they're basically going back to the electorate to say that they can't deliver on anything they promised (did anyone seriously imagine they would?), and its the same as its ever been.
Well, we'll have to wait and see if they can keep a bit of flexibility over the next four months, and make a start on getting rid of some of the corruption that is such a problem. If they can, maybe they can get a bit more humane deal next time around. If the Germans insist on being tough guys then in the end Greece will have to leave the EU.
Apart from that, what this had achieved is putting the issue on the front pages so the pluses and minuses of signing up to be part of the EZ can be seen very clearly. As I said before, Schauble had done more for the Eurosceptic cause than Nigel Farage ever did.
Little will change in 4 months - how can it?
Even the Syriza MPs are saying this.
Well perhaps they can complete the design of capital controls in that time. Maybe they can copy/do a reverse of the Danes!
What a mess.
True, nothing will: change in people's pockets. But maybe they can make a start on procedures to reduce corruption.
Did you see the interview w the German deputy finance minister? Didn't do much to dispel the stereotypes
The Danes potentially have their own problem with a big housing bubble fuelled by personal debt. But at least it's not inflated by Germany because it's illegal for Germans to buy summer houses there 🙂
Stereotyping? Yes, could only cope with 1:14 of mason's bllx. Blimey that is a mighty chip he carries around with him.
What stereotypes are visible in that interview.? The German Finance Minsiter was simply speaking in facts, that Greece has signed a legally binding agreement that can be honoured or broken. He was saying the same thing any other eurozone finance minister would say. As an aside I don't accept that the policies of the Troika have destroyed 25% of Greek GDP. The reality is that the pre 2009 GDP figures where a fantasy as Greece borrowed to pay wages, pensions etc. The GDP like a large part of the Greek economy was fake.
The Greek electorate voted for an impossible combination, to remain in the euro yet at the same time increase spending and ignore their legal commitments.
I hope the Greeks can tackle tax evasion and corruption as well as their restrictive labour market practices as otherwise they will be doomed to spiral downwards as better managed economies from Eastern Europe overtake them
The reality is that the pre 2009 GDP figures where a fantasy as Greece borrowed to pay wages, pensions etc.
Don't forget the military hardware, you always seem to forget the spending spree which the previous right-wing conservative government that ruled Greece in the years leading up to the crises went on for military hardware - much of it from Germany.
The Germans and French lent money to the Greek conservatives so that they could buy military hardware from them.
[url= http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052748703636404575352991108208712 ]The Submarine Deals That Helped Sink Greece[/url]
Quote :
[i]As Greece slashes spending to avoid default, it hasn't moved to skimp on one area: defense.
[b]The military deals illustrate how Germany and other creditors have in some ways benefited from Greece's profligacy, and how that is coming back to haunt them.[/b]
Greece, with a population of just 11 million, is the largest importer of conventional weapons in Europe—and ranks fifth in the world behind China, India, the United Arab Emirates and South Korea. Its military spending is the highest in the European Union as a percentage of gross domestic product. That spending was one of the factors behind Greece's stratospheric national debt.
[b]Other European officials have charged France and Germany with making their military dealings with Greece a condition of their participation in the country's huge financial rescue. [/b][/i]
Stereotypes? The one about slavishly following rules rather than doing the morally correct thng. I think it's called the Nuremberg defence in other contexts.
DrJ - its following the rule of law and fiscal reality. The press and the greek politicians are aiming all their barbs at Germany but the whole eurogroup is of the same view. Its not a defense its a statement of the bleeding obvious. As the Dutch Finance minister said again today Greece must respect the democracies in the other eurogroup members, they cannot have what they want without leaving the euro.
For those that care here is the letter Syriza delivered [url= http://t.co/np0ro8uK9v ]PDF[/url]
They acknowledge the size of the state spending is excessive and that pensions must be reformed to dis-incentivise people retiring between 50 and 65. Also speaks extensively of social justice but the key measure is that everything must be costed and paid for by tax rises/collection.