[Closed] Greek election - extreme left won

1] Why is it always "righties" vs "lefties"?
2] These debts - are they owned-by/owed-to
a] The already vastly wealthy who tend to hoard it?
b] Poor bastards who will have/be glad to spend it?

Why do they already poor and deprived have to shoulder it? It's fundamentally not right.

Hence my irritation with the "must make profit from 'em" approach.

I don't think public services and such should be run for profit, because the market just cuts corners [very simple example - reluctance to pay living wages] whilst pocketing maximum profit [see Apple's taxes].

Left v right is basically
Collective v individual
Society v market
Personal wealth v fairer society

{ tried to keep them as neutral as I could there ....probably did not manage it]

Many are fine with apple and its tax situation [ probably thinks itss good business and would praise its business model as well* ] whilst many think it stinks and it is indefensible

One of those we all decide what is most important and if you disagree well you disagree.

Its pretty clear some on here care more about the market and profit than the people and some of them even claim its the other side doing it.

* IMHO Its morally indefensible and obscene levels of profit and wealth.

* and lefties who think this is a good idea (or don't understand basics of labour market economics!!!)

Not at all. I'm sure most 'lefties' fully recognise the fact that the lower the wages the higher the profit,
and the more likely an enterprise is of being competitive.

In fact if companies were allowed to use slaves both their profits and competitiveness would be massive.

The argument in favour of low wages is obvious.

Slaves make crap consumers though.

IMHO Its morally indefensible and obscene levels of profit and wealth.

True but it's not even very good capitalism to have one organisation hoarding 100s of billions in their bank account. It's a lazy analogy (not out of place on this thread) but how is what Apple and other busnesses/individuals doing any different to that of a parasite sucking the life out of it's host? 'Free' market my a**e!

{ tried to keep them as neutral as I could there ....probably did not manage it]

Yes, sorry, I didn't mean what do left/right mean - what I'm wondering is why it's always reduced to such simplistic terms.

As a Designer, thinking in novel ways and testing possible ideas is CRITICAL - you'll miss the next advance if all you do is rehash the same concepts....

Which is why the ULEV I'm designing will be ****ing awesome.

Just for avoidance of doubt I am not proposing giving the rich of Greece an extra euro, far from it they should be collecting much more tax from them. Many wealthy Greeks treat tax as a voluntary donation. Germany offered tax advisors, they should accept. As / when Syriza start collecting more taxes they can increase the minimum wage should they chose to do so.

JY it would be a start if the Greek railways could reduce their huge losses somewhat, making a profit is a pipedream which will never be realised, that's why the railways there are unsaleable.

JY my view is pretty easy to understand if you take the time to think about. Portugal, for example, is an developed economy not subject to endemic corruption, a huge black economy and rampant tax avoidance. Whilst it has had its problems it has managed its affairs far more professionally than Greece. As such it is a more attractive country for investment, an much more robust economy. As such it is a much richer country than Greece. High wages in a poor country make no sense. Greece should be at a similar level to Turkey, ie back to where it was before it joined the EU a time when it basically had to stand on its own two feet and not rely on handouts from the rest of the EU.

This.

Schauble said Greece must reform and collect more taxes, especially from the wealthy. Germany recently offered to send 500 tax inspectors to Greece, this was unfortunately declined.

WTF?...Greece needs to show willing to start coming down hard on its own tax avoiders before asking foreign countries for more money....pride doesnt come into it, this is Greece thumbing its nose to Germany.

The most depressing thing about this whole debacle is that the EU/Euro expansion, integration, financial union etc has supposedly been led by intelligent people who seem to be willfully oblivious to the realities and difficulties of joining together economies as opposite as Greece and Germany...accounts get fudged to allow more countries to join, loans get thrown around running into the hundreds of billions and meanwhile the gravy train in Brussels rolls on unaffected.

The political vanity and corruption endemic in the EU as an organisation is on a par with stereotypical Greek corruption but because its done in Brussels by Belgians in suits it goes unchecked....the sooner the whole thing collapses the better.

I could sort of see the point in financial unity between France, Germany and maybe a few other economically similar countries but trying to pull countries like Greece into the deal always smacked of expansion for the sake of it and a willingness to allow countries to join at any cost or level of corruption...

....some of the Mediterranean/southern European countries with similar economies should have pursued economic integration with each other instead of looking up to Germany, France, Holland etc....some of the poorer countries joining knew full well they would have easy access to borrowed money once in 'the fold' so to speak...their politicians who facilitated this need bringing to task over their wreckless borrowing and spending.

I still cant believe that in the rarefied field of top economists, bankers, politicians etc at the European and World level that the old adage of living within your means gets forgotten about so easily...FFS if you havent got it, dont spend it!...i think i was taught this when i was about 6 years old, why is that so hard for Governments to remember?

I was genuinely trying to answer your Q and I think the left and the right fundamentally value different things and they revert to just discussing this point on various issues. We dont get novel solutions as we already know "more market" or a fairer society by regulating the market.
Their is no novel option*.

* technically the novel approach is to blame the EU and immigrants

that's why the railways there are unsaleable.

if you havent got it, dont spend it!...i think i was taught this when i was about 6 years old, why is that so hard for Governments to remember?

You just really lost my interest in your POV.

If you don't understand the importance of credit in modern financial institutions you're not very knowedgable on the subject. "FFS" indeed, we covered this in a term in my university course.

Their is no novel option

I'll solve the world economy with a novel solution right after I solve the transportation crisis with one then, seeing as no-one will see it coming 😉

Thanks JY, I appreciate what you were trying to do - I really value people who actually take the time to answer questions.

FFS if you havent got it, dont spend it!

Are you against mortgages, investments and the entire banking sector?

i'm against the idea of granting mortgages based on the (hoped-for) future income of the applicant.

i don't earn £80k, not even close, but i hope to one day, would you lend me £300k to buy a house? - bearing in mind i currently can't afford to even cover the interest. But i'm dead clever, i'll definitely earn loads sooner or later.

there's leveraging your assets for investment, and there's taking the p154

The Greek people have made their bed, and whilst they may not like it, it's time to lie in it.

So for you it comes down to some (misguided) small-minded view of morality. Who exactly made the bed that is being lain in?

Some European countries may be worried about a loss of face with a Greek default and expulsion form the euro but the project will be stronger if they have the courage to follow financial and political reality and kick Greec out.

It's not a matter of losing face, it's simply proof that the idea of the European club is false - that it is just a club for the powerful, and the smaller faces can be marched on by the ECB or any other non-elected bureaucracy. Seems to me that there are 2 choices - give Greece the space to grow inside the EU, or kick it out, at which point obviously it would default on all its debts, and let hardship provide the perfect soil for fascism to grow.Is that what we need? an impoverished unstable country on the mainland of Europe?

Greece should be at a similar level to Turkey

Yeah - that's sort of the point - the EU helped Greece avoid becoming like Turkey, where the army is the biggest political force and they covertly support ISIS. Still - you'll get your wish if Merkel and co continue to ignore the lessons of history.

When it comes to Europe the whole L v R thing is a red herring anyway (even more so than normal) as the parties are pretty confused on the whole issue and it's constituent parts.

The point about the leftie joke is simple - why would those who should be interested in supporting the rights of workers support a structure that can only ever result in a bad outcome for them*. It's illogical. The only answer would be if they were unilaterally committed to full fiscal union which would allow the fiscal transfers to take place - and we know where The Deutsche are on that issue. The others can't quite decide.

* competitiveness to come though wage deflation and or unemployment (leaving only the owners of capital to benefit).

Having said that Tsipras and varoufakis probably know the names of more businessmen that support them than Ed Balls. Poor chap, I hope he has pulled his trousers up now.

Are you against mortgages, investments and the entire banking sector?

The mortgages whereby people could self certify and borrow many many times their salaries?....yep, dead against those.

The ones where you're loaned 3-4 times your salary and have a chance at paying it back and a margin of error should interest rates change?...they're fine.

It comes down to responsible lending and borrowing as somebody else above this post said.
Banking has become ridiculous with savers expecting 5%+ interest on their money but then crying foul when the bank plays fast and loose with their savings...you cant have it both ways, safe-ish investments and lower but hopefully steady returns or larger, faster returns but through risky investments....the fallacy we've been sold in recent times is that we can have it all.

We cant.

Is it too much to ask for a bit of reality being reintroduced to the financial sector?...the public (and i include myself in this) need to wake up too, earning 20k a year but carrying round several credit cards all with 10k limits is absurd...people think they're managing because they can make the interest payment each month but in reality its only keeping the wolf from the door.

At whatever level you talk about debt, be it personal, business, national etc it usually stems from greed...a desire to have something NOW rather than wait, a desire to have something that in reality you cant afford but credit makes it seem like you can...and in this day and age people/countries dont want to be told 'No'...they want what everyone else has even if the reality of the situation is that they shouldnt have it...again credit swoops in and makes it seem affordable.

That is what needs to stop happening at every level.

Now that's a more nuanced reply 😀

That is what needs to stop happening at every level.

I'll remind you of that when your kid needs an expensive operation.

The ones where you're loaned 3-4 times your salary and have a chance at paying it back and a margin of error should interest rates change?...they're fine.

Why? If individuals had to live by the same laws as companies and financial institutions then they'd all be declared insolvent and shut down. And just like Jambalaya, you're making the silly error in equating individual finances to that of national and international economies. The two couldn't be more different. I would love to be able to unilaterally force my employers to pay me more whilst at the same time reducing the value of my fixed debts by printing more £20 notes, but unlike national governments, that's not something that's within my power.

Well, you can print your own money, it's the getting away with it that's the hard bit!

by printing more £20 notes, but unfortunately that's not something within my power.

Well, you can print your own money, it's the getting away with it that's the hard bit!

I always thought it was the eyes

Greek Railways, the ones Vovouakis said he would sell for 1 euro. back of the envelope its worth about negative 8 billion 😯

Why? If individuals had to live by the same laws as companies and financial institutions then they'd all be declared insolvent and shut down

why would those who should be interested in supporting the rights of workers support a structure that can only ever result in a bad outcome for them

The point about the leftie joke is simple - why would those who should be interested in supporting the rights of workers support a structure that can only ever result in a bad outcome for them*. It's illogical.

* competitiveness to come though wage deflation and or unemployment (leaving only the owners of capital to benefit).

Only that's not what you suggested in your "leftie joke". You claimed that lefties, quote : [i]"don't understand basics of labour market economics!!!"[/i], not why would they support something [i]"that can only ever result in a bad outcome for them".[/i]

I do agree with you though that many who purport to be leftie, including a fair few on here, fail to fully grasp the irreconcilable class antagonisms that characterize all societies beyond hunter-gatherer.

However lefties with a clear class understanding, and you obviously THM as you've made clear, fully understand the conflict of interest which exists with regards to wages between employees and owners of capital, as you like to call them.

I give your leftie joke 2/10 for effort. And that's being generous I might add.

Nonsense. Most individuals are far less leveraged than companies.

Are you sure?

On the contrary, it's exactly what I claimed and have claimed consistently. Your highlighted bit is the qualification not the point itself. The * was the give away, unless that was missed in the selective edit. Many "lefties" support something that is incompatible with their goals, this suggests the lack of understanding not the other way round. Then again many "righties" including many Tories bizarrely oppose the freedom of movement of people. All very inconsistent...and that's before the flip-flopping on overall attitudes towards Europe. Hence framing that debates as L v R is largely unhelpful (1/10?).

But thanks for the 2 marks, I am chuffed. I can go home proud of achieving something today! You are too generous...

Many "lefties" support something that is incompatible with their goals

Well at the risk of repeating myself I agree that many who [i]purport[/i] to be left-wing support positions which are incompatible with their goals. However those with a better class understanding tend not to.

Sadly THM not everyone understands the irreconcilable conflict of class interests as well as you and me.

.

Hence framing that debates as L v R is largely unhelpful (1/10?).

Not entirely, for me the best quick gauge of how left-wing an individual or party is their attitude to the EU. No one who is serious about achieving socialist goals can support the EU, to do so is clearly incompatible with their goals, as you put it.

And it was on that basis that it was fairly simple to conclude that Syriza, despite all the media hype and scare stories, is not a far left party. In contrast the anti-EU KKE clearly is.

Likewise the Labour Party today can barely be called left-wing, if at all, and yet in 1983 when its policy was to withdraw from the EEC it clearly was left-wing.

But then of course many on the right are also anti-EU so it is not always entirely relevant. So I would give that comment more than 1/10 if you're asking.

What's all this class crap? Do the Greeks have a caste system?

No, Greece is a classless society. Hadn't you heard ?

Not entirely, for me the best quick gauge of how left-wing an individual or party is their attitude to the EU. No one who is serious about achieving socialist goals can support the EU, to do so is clearly incompatible with their goals, as you put it.

Sorry not sure I would agree 😉 the EU has bought a number of important benefits in terms of workers' rights and protection that have countered trends in the other direction. The positives of the EU get lost in the noise of bananas etc.

So that is compatible with LW goals. To me, it's the elephant in the room - the fixed exchange rate - that is the issue at the heart of the incompatibilities. It has been a disaster for workers and the youth of the peripheral states. Hence people will be drawn to protest parties despite their obvious lack of joined up thinking - even the sweaties did that!

Who loses in all of this - probably not the politicians. Yes some might well have only a very temporary moment centre stage but the real pain is with the youth and the workers.

It has been a disaster for workers and the youth of the peripheral states.

This. The whole thing has been a hidden subsidy for Germany and the rest, but they want to have their cake and eat it, while lecturing others on their greed.

So that is compatible with LW goals.

Of course it isn't 😀

No left-wing government would be allowed to implement socialist policies, that's the whole point of the EU. They would not even be allowed to implement social democratic/keynesian policies of state support for struggling industries without special permission. Or refuse to open up their markets to competition.

Which is fine if you're not very left-wing like the UK Labour Party, but a bit of a stinker if you are a socialist.

Its quite ridiculous to suggest a Greek exit will lead to the political destablisation of Europe. There will be a few bumps but most won't really notice. Personally I think a Greek exit will show the rest of the EU members and potential members that if you behave irresponsibly you will leave the club. The EU should have been very good for Greece but the nation decided to abuse the ability to borrow whilst doing nothing to address the corruption and tax avoidance. The EU has been very successful for a number of smaller countries, even Portugal and Ireland which made material errors in managing their economies have been bailed out and are moving on.

Seems quite clear to me Syriza will tow the line if they are serious about staying in the euro, otherwise a default and exit are on the cards

many who purport to be leftie, including a fair few on here, fail to fully grasp the irreconcilable class antagonisms that characterize all societies beyond hunter-gatherer

No one who is serious about achieving socialist goals can support the EU

as for the freedom of movement I have always found it perplexing that the right wing trust markets to do the right thing but not people so they will de regulate business and restrict people with immigration control, drugs law, sex trade laws etc. Its clear even the most right wing of folk dont actually trust the market

Its possible to be both Left wing and not a Marxist

Er yes, I'm not sure why you feel the need to tell me that.

It's not only Marxists who recognize the conflict of interests between 'workers and owners of capital', THM obviously does as he brought it up the issue on this thread, I'm fairly sure that he's not a Marxist.

Seems quite clear to me that a compromise will be found if the Germans realise that it is in everyone's interest that Greece be given the opportunity to reform their economy without a descent into further poverty, otherwise a default and exit are on the cards, in which case the creditors won't get a bean.

Correct.

In fact, I hadn't realised they still existed. Rather quaint, really.

Not just the Germans, the tax payers of all the other eurozone countries need to agree. Will the recovery be zero in the event of a default ? Not sure I could see Greece remaining in the EU if it pays zero cents on the euro. Not sure I agree it makes sense for Germany and the other EU nations to have Greece remain in the euro.

The compromise that will be found is that Syriza will be bound by much the same agreement as currentky with a few tweaks granted in feturn for reforms / tax collection targets

I'm not entirely sure what your last comment was suppose to mean THM but if I get the gist correct you might find this comment by Nobel Prize-winning economist Paul Krugman interesting :

[i]I think our eyes have been averted from the capital/labor dimension of inequality, for several reasons. It didn’t seem crucial back in the 1990s, and not enough people (me included!) have looked up to notice that things have changed. It has echoes of old-fashioned Marxism — which shouldn’t be a reason to ignore facts, but too often is. And it has really uncomfortable implications.

But I think we’d better start paying attention to those implications.[/i]

Paul Krugman.

Did I mention his Nobel Prize ?

The compromise that will be found is that Syriza will be bound by much the same agreement as currentky with a few tweaks granted in feturn for reforms / tax collection targets

As Einstein said, doing the same thing and expecting a different outcome is a symptom of insanity.

A couple of times, but I think you got away with it.

From time to time, Krugman makes sense such as a few days ago...

And here’s the thing: If the troika had been truly realistic, it would have acknowledged that it was demanding the impossible.

He obviously deserved his prize! Of course the impossible started earlier than that, but that's another story!

teamhurtmore - Member
Let's not forget that for the average Greek, this is a time of considerable stress and unhappiness. For all the anti-Government rhetoric in the UK, think for one moment how much more severe this is in Greece. European politicians simply dont seem to get this.

[b]POSTED 3 YEARS AGO #[/b]

For a Nobel winner isn't he a bit late to this. Some of this saw it coming for much longer.....it wasn't hard.

Funnily enough Ernie, you were positing hours worked on the same thread three years ago too!!!

teamhurtmore - Member
Unelected representatives have now been given the mandate to impose draconian auterity measures in their economies that are already struggling to achieve growth. This will lead to significant social unrest in several European economies and will be the final straw in some cases. The result will be a final realisation that to restore cost competitiveness to their economies several countries will need to introduce a new form of Euro arrangement or leave the Euro altogether. The only certainty in this will be that the politicians will remain behind the curve in terms of their populations and the financial markets.

It will not be pretty.

[b]POSTED 3 YEARS AGO #[/b]

It was/is only a matter of time....it really has not been pretty especially for young Greeks.

I'm sorry THM you've lost me. Are claiming that 3 years ago only you knew that austerity was [i]"much more severe"[/i] in Greece than the UK ? If so are you serious ?

And are you also serious with your comment [i]"For a Nobel winner isn't he a bit late to this"[/i] ? Or is this another one of your jokes ? You know full well that Krugman has opposed the Eurozone austerity plans from the very start.

I don't understand the last line in the first of your two posts at all.

No I am not claiming that.

Re the last line, just noting that you were making the correct point about hours worked in Greece at the same time.

Anyway there is a labour mp singing the joys of Europe right now on the Beeb

It's not entirely surprising - the labour movement has always had a strong element of "internationalism". The mistake, of course, is to imagine that the EU is run for the people, and not for the owners. A bit like thinking that a casino is built for the benefit of gamblers.

The owners??

The owners??

Well THM you earlier referred to [i]"the owners of capital"[/i], which sounds terribly marxist btw, I suspect DrJ is talking about [i]those[/i] owners.

Marxist-speak!?! Hardly - first year economics (AS level) and the circular flow of income. Owners of the factors of production and the rents that go with them. Perhaps there is a hidden Marxist element in economics 101 textbooks and examiners!! (I doubt it)

Personally, I thing the good doctor is referring to the political owners of the € project. Perhaps he may confirm.

Meanwhile the Danes have the opposite problem, with stopping money flowing into the currency!!! The joys and follies of fixed exchange rates/pegs.

Ernie, your friend Christina has tricky few weeks ahead too!

Personally, I thing the good doctor is referring to the political owners of the € project. Perhaps he may confirm.

Indeed.

The ironic thing about the Danish problem is that they have a level of personal debt that makes the Greeks look frugal. They do, however, have a highly efficient, some would say over zealous, tax collection system.

Everyone is bickering about the various economic connotations, but we are forgetting the less savoury, but very real [url= http://www.theguardian.com/business/2015/feb/05/greek-german-finance-ministers-clash-debt-relief-talks ]political implications[/url]

[i]Greece’s radical Syriza government remained locked in a bitter standoff with its German paymasters, as finance minister Yanis Varoufakis issued a stark warning of the rise of nazism in his country if the eurozone fails to heed the democratic voice of Greek voters.[/i]

Now theres probably a lot of scaremongering in that statement. But theres no doubt that the far right will be looking to take advantage of anything they can

Marxist-speak!?!

Yep, it sounds terribly marxist, as indeed does the term [i]capitalism[/i] - did you use that term in first year economics ? Of course we all know that capitalism is not a term that Marx himself used - it's never mentioned in any of the volumes of Das Kapital.

.

Now theres probably a lot of scaremongering in that statement.

Well obviously, he's clearly getting rather desperate and as a consequence is being a tad over dramatic.

Although it is a historical fact that fascism thrives on being ignore, so his comment shouldn't be dismissed too swiftly.

Well obviously, he's clearly getting rather desperate and as a consequence is being a tad over dramatic.

Not really - have you not been following the news about Golden Dawn and their cozy relationships in the police and army? These are the consequences that don't count in the little morality tale that is told by jamba and co, but they are real enough in Greece.

Another consequence is that all the refugees from the asian and middle east hotspots that are now ditching up on Greece's shores will be heading north unchecked to the milk and honey of the EU.

Yes I have. Have you been following the news concerning how 72 of their party members including all their MPs are await trial for among other things conspiracy to murder ? Did you notice that at the recent election their support didn't increase and that in fact they lost an MP ?

As I said, the threat from fascism should never be ignored, this doesn't however prove that Golden Dawn are in the cusp of achieving power. As I suggested previously they have probably peaked. The threat they pose is more associated to the violence and criminal activity rather than achieving meaningful power.

The rise of the far right in Europe certainly isn't restricted to Greece. And I'm sure that given any further financial chaos, they'll be out there doing what they do... offering simplistic solutions to complex problems.

It just seems to me that everyone is focussing on the economics of this situation, and not the potential political fallout. I think theres a complacency at work (in Europe? Surely not?) where the main concern of the money men is left wingers (who aren't really that left wing. Wheres if you look at the bigger picture, its the right wingers who are the scary ones. And they're benefitting massively too, as people abandon the established parties throughout Europe

binners - Member

Now theres probably a lot of scaremongering in that statement.

Scaremongering's a weird word. When someone sells you a fish you don't accuse him of fishmongering. Sometimes stuff is just scary and worth talking about and honestly I think it goes without saying that the current situation in Greece is like a wee petri dish for extremism, if you have 50% youth unemployment then it's pretty likely that they're going to burn the country to the ground.

I agree with you completely Northwind. I'm absolutely amazed that, with 50% youth unemployment in a lot of countries, that there hasn't been serious civil unrest by now. And I think that because it hasn't happened [i]yet[/i] governments are assuming that it won't.

Well I wouldn't bank on it. I think it might not take much to ignite the situation. And obviously there are people who'd like nothing more than to do just that

I'm absolutely amazed that, with 50% youth unemployment in a lot of countries, that there hasn't been serious civil unrest by now. And I think that because it hasn't happened yet governments are assuming that it won't.

I think the only thing holding it back is that a lot of the unemployed/disenfranchised youth can still rely on their parents/family to provide a roof over their heads and food in their mouths. As the middle and lower classes are squeezed further by austerity this support will not be available and it could/will become much nastier. And where Greece leads, Spain, France and Italy won't be far behind.

EDIT : Failed link. See below.

I've seen worse than that in Salford 6 on an average Saturday night! 😉

I mean sustained rioting in a number of countries simultaneously, calling for a massive crackdown by the authorities. Troops on the streets etc. 50% + youth unemployment against the whole southern half of a continent I thought would have been a catalyst for this

there hasn't been serious civil unrest

What do you call "serious" ?

[url= %3Bhttps%253A%252F%252Fpublicintelligence.net%252Fgreece-riot-photos-december-2011%252F%3B3696%3B2448]CLICK[/url]

Ernie, you might enjoy Krugman's latest missive (he won Nobel prize BTW)

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/06/opinion/a-game-of-chicken.html

Like all too many crises, the new Greek crisis stems, ultimately, from political pandering. It’s the kind of thing that happens when politicians tell voters what they want to hear, make promises that can’t be fulfilled, and then can’t bring themselves to face reality and make the hard choices they’ve been pretending can be avoided.

Of course, expectations of where the article goes next is a good indicator of the lenses through which you view this story!!!

Yes THM I did enjoy that article by Noble Prize-winning economist Paul Krugman.

I particularly enjoyed reading the line that you missed out at the end of your quote. This One :

[i]I am, of course, talking about Angela Merkel, the German chancellor, and her colleagues.[/i]

Bloody hell Ernie, where's the spoiler? That's the whole point of my comment.

What comes next is indeed interesting. In fact the most interesting point. I was letting people imagine before reading what Krugman said. Still time to edit.......otherwise the exercise is ruined 😯

KM used capital, capitalist for sure, capitalism not sure. Semantics, semantics...... 😉

On the point of semantics, is the Noble prize and alternative one to add to his list. I didn't have him down as noble personally!!

the line that you missed out

[img] [/img]

Sorry - had to be done 🙂

As I suggested previously they have probably peaked.

Yes, you stated that without proof before. Let's see if you still think it after more austerity has increased the poverty level even more and people are starving in the streets.

I provided the proof that it had "probably" peaked by pointing out that its vote hadn't increased in the recent elections and was in fact very slightly down, and they lost one MP.

Given the present situation if Golden Dawn were able to exploit it any [i]further[/i] then it would be reasonable to expect to have done so in the recent elections.

For me it suggests that their support has probably peaked. Of course you don't have to agree with me - I'm not asking you to 🙂

the present situation

The present situation is that Greeks are optimistic that Syriza can enact some changes within the EU. When/if the olive branch is knocked from their hand by Schauble, there will be a new situation. Let's see how that plays out before dismissing the possibility of a return to fascism in Greece.

THM wasn't the only one with his thinking cap on three years ago ...
[url= http://yanisvaroufakis.eu/2011/12/15/never-bailed-out-europes-ants-and-grasshoppers-revisited/ ]http://yanisvaroufakis.eu/2011/12/15/never-bailed-out-europes-ants-and-grasshoppers-revisited/[/url]

A good find and a good read Doc!!

http://yanisvaroufakis.eu/2011/12/15/never-bailed-out-europes-ants-and-grasshoppers-revisited/

I told you he was a smart guy 🙂 You don't get to where Valve is without knowing your shit.

Also - how refreshing to read, not like the claptrap soundbites we get here. I'd vote for him.

Let's see how that plays out before dismissing the possibility of a return to fascism in Greece.

You don't seem to read my posts properly, which is fair enough and there is absolutely no reason why you should, except that you are commenting on them.

For example this bit you seem to have completely missed :

[i]"the threat from fascism should never be ignored"[/i]

And this bit :

[i]"it is a historical fact that fascism thrives on being ignore"[/i]

So as you can see I don't really need lessons on the threat posed by fascism.

I do however like to keep things within reasonable perspectives - it's not always helpful to exaggerate potential threats. And I think the suggestion that the Nazis might be getting close to achieving power in Greece is probably a slight exaggeration. Although I can understand why Varoufakis might be a tad over dramatic - he desperately wants/needs to secure an agreement, and he's right at least to point out/emphasis that the possible political consequences of him not achieving a deal could be bad for the whole of the EU, ie, it's more likely to strengthen rather than weaken anti-EU parties such as Golden Dawn and the KKE.

You are of course free to disagree with my judgement on the matter 🙂

And I think the suggestion that the Nazis might be getting close to achieving power in Greece is probably a slight exaggeration.

You're right - that could never happen ...

[img] [/img]

Interesting comments here. I don't understand German but I guess the summary is accurate.

[url= http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/feb/06/stop-squeezing-syriza-europe-greece-eurozone-crisis#comment-47221815 ]http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/feb/06/stop-squeezing-syriza-europe-greece-eurozone-crisis#comment-47221815[/url]

You're right - that could never happen ...

Nice picture, thank you.

So now you want to continue the theme of exaggeration and over dramatics by equating the military dictatorship under the colonels with the Nazis ?

And you can't distinguish between :

[i]"the suggestion that the Nazis might be getting close to achieving power in Greece is probably a slight exaggeration"[/i]

And :

[i]"that could never happen"[/i]

Fair enough. I probably can't help you.

Well I wonder exactly how many people a regime has to imprison or torture before in your eyes it starts to bear any comparison to Nazism? For sure the colonels didn't ruin a full fledged system of gas chambers but spiriting thousands away to torture camps and execution on remote islands surely deserves marks for effort?

Well if that's your criteria then presumably you think the US has a Nazi regime.

Extrajudicial imprisonment and torturing people does not define a Nazi regime. I have never heard the past military dictatorship in Greece being described as "Nazi", nor the US, beyond the childish rantings of teenage ultra-lefties obviously.

It's clear, to me at least, that when Varoufakis warned of the rise of nazism in Greece he was referring to growing electoral success for Golden Dawn, not the possibility of a coup staged by middle-ranking officers. An EU imposed dictatorship of unelected Eurocrats, as has already previously happened in Greece, is more likely than that.

And as I have said several times now I think he was over-egging the threat a tad, but who can blame him for that? He's engaged in high stakes brinkmanship and the whole Syriza strategy at the present rests on him securing an agreement.

Maybe when the US starts executing its own citizens for publishing a subversive poem I'll be tempted to use the N word in that connection.

It's clear, to me at least, that when Varoufakis warned of the rise of nazism in Greece he was referring to growing electoral success for Golden Dawn

I hardly think so. I suspect he had in mind more their paramilitary activities than their success at the ballot box. I don't think he was over-egging anything, rather that he has a personal knowledge of Greece's recent history.