[Closed] Greek election - extreme left won

Thge last government (just defeated) was sorting the problem out by implementing the "austerity" measures, ie a budget the Greeks can afford but with massive EU assistance.

I'm fully aware of the current policies of New Democracy but are you seriously claiming that they are any different to the same party who along with Pasok were responsible for 'bribing' the electorate and cooking the books so that they could gain entry into the Euro? It's a pity you can't show the same forgiveness and generosity to the Greek people who you say greedily voted for their own destruction.

From Sky News

[i] During the campaign, Syriza made a number of radical proposals: free electricity, subsidised rent, free healthcare, higher salaries and pensions for the civil service, an increase in the minimum wage, abolishing the existing property tax and so on.[/i]

[url= http://news.sky.com/story/1415205/why-syrizas-victory-is-a-poisoned-chalice ]Why Syriza's victory is a poisened chalice[/url]

@dazh, different in the sense that they where following the financial rules set down by the EU/Troika as part of the bailout. That's my take.

jambalaya - Member
Post the crises the Greeks introduced taxes collected via utility bills

Only property tax and only for two years (2012/2013). Last year property tax was payable over the counter at a bank or post office, in six instalments. Or one payment, of course, if you wanted to.
Being a ??????, that's what I did...

Also I can personally vouch for the difficulties the health service is working under. When my wife broke her arm last summer she was, of course, treated (X-ray and plaster) at Genikó Nosokomeío Kalamatas and in all the corridors, waiting rooms, etc. only one light in five was working to reduce electricity costs, they can't even afford those paper rolls that are used on examination couches and the list goes on and on.
My wife couldn't fault the attention and care that she received though, and no, we didn't have to slip anyone a back-hander. Both she and I wish we could be there now (Greece I mean, not the hospital..)

Not that this has anything to do with bugger all, of course.

different in the sense that they where following the financial rules set down by the EU/Troika as part of the bailout. That's my take.

Ah so it's ok as long as they do what they're told once they've been found out?

From Sky News

😀

Free electricity...up to a limit...for those under the poverty line. Insane bastards.

Subsidised rent...as part of a house building scheme. The idiots.

Free healthcare...for the uninsured and unemployed. Mental.

Increase in the minimum wage...or restoration to it's previous level (but lower than it was in 2012). Crazy.

Can't find details about the civil service pay/pensions but the property tax looks like a complete overhaul rather than abolishing it.

Funny how he doesn't slag off proposed meal subsidies for families with zero income though...

I went to Greece shortly after it all went tits up and before I went I read an article on tax avoidance in Greece, and one thing the article mentioned was if you go to Greece take note of how many receipts you get or see being made.

From my personal experience:

1. Taxi - none
2. Hotel - none
3. Restaurants - none
4. Touristy cruise - none
5. Boat hire - none

I was there for a wedding and the bride and groom also had to pay for the wedding venue, restaurant and bar bill in cash, and this wasn't in small places these were big hotels.

Essentially, it appeared like if you could avoid paying tax you did, this was backed up by conversations with a few locals who said they don't pay tax as the roads, schools and public services are so bad that they refuse to pay for them.

Here's a plan - tried and tested

Reduce the repayable amount by 50%
Repayments should only be due when Greece run a trade surplus and limited to 3% of export earnings

Free electricity...up to a limit...for those under the poverty line. Insane bastards.

Subsidised rent...as part of a house building scheme. The idiots.

Free healthcare...for the uninsured and unemployed. Mental.

Increase in the minimum wage...or restoration to it's previous level (but lower than it was in 2012). Crazy.

Gosh, what a bunch of loony commies.

Reduce the repayable amount by 50%
Repayments should only be due when Greece run a trade surplus and limited to 3% of export earnings

@Andy R and @richc these first hand stories are worth a lot as they show what's really happening.

I fully appreciate how difficult things are in Greece but they are better than of they had defaulted a few years ago and will hopefully serve as a lesson to Greeks and to those other countries who try and live on excessive levels of debt.

@Lifer those policies are fine if you can afford them, if you have a strong economy. Paying for them by borrowing money isn't a good plan particularly if you are one of the most indebted countries in the world.

We could do with some of that in the UK as we won't run a trade surplus. Also why not reduce by 75% while you are at it ?

Well, I'm not quite sure how much was actually paid back before the remainder of the 50% was eventually written off.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agreement_on_German_External_Debts

@lifer- you don't mean to say that jam's post was a bunch of misleading half truths do you?

The last government prepared for the election in the time honoured way by hiring a bunch of public employees. This is what the Greek voters rejected.

@jota180 - maybe if the Greeks kill a few million people they'll qualify for that deal?

sierrakilo - Member

Been to Greece and Islands several times............. they always seem to be sitting around drinking coffee in the coffee shops.....doesn't anyone work at all in Greece ? ......no wonder they went bust !

An interesting observation but your conclusion is false. The Greeks according to the OECD on average actually work more hours than anyone else in Europe.

In fact the Greeks work more hours in a year than almost any other nation in the industrialised world.

The Germans in contrast are among the "laziest" in Europe/the world.

[img] [/img]

Greece's financial crises has nothing to do with the Greeks suddenly becoming "lazy" when they joined the Euro, and everything to do with them sharing a currency with Germany - a country at a completely different stage of economic/industrial development than themselves.

Although I can understand the attraction to EU enthusiasts of propagating the myth of Greek "laziness" to explain the failure of their experiment, something which they have had considerable success with - most people I suspect blame the Greeks.

.

"Far left" is how the FT describes it BTW

The media can use all sorts of labels to describe political organisations, it doesn't make them correct. Syriza is an alliance of bourgeois liberals and revisionists. It supports EU membership and the Euro. It wishes to "renegotiate" an "agreement" with the conservative politicians and bankers who control EU, they have ruled out any suggestion of taking unilateral action. No "far left" party would take that stance.

Syriza are in fact more right-wing than the Labour Party was in the 1980's ..... the 1983 Labour Party manifesto called for withdrawal from the EEC and the nationalisation of the banks. This did not incidentally lead to the FT describing the Labour Party as a "far left party", in fact by the 1992 General Election the FT was urging its readers to vote Labour.

Btw as someone who can reasonably be described as far left, and given that the Greeks had a choice, if I were Greek I would have voted KKE, the obvious far left party, not Syriza.

ernie_lynch - Member

An interesting observation but your conclusion is false. The Greeks according to the OECD on average actually work more hours than anyone else in Europe.

In fact the Greeks work more hours in a year than almost any other nation in the industrialised world.

The Germans in contrast are among the "laziest" in Europe/the world.

Let says they don't work Saturday & Sunday (ignoring other public holidays they have) that would equate to 7.79 hour per day so in effect they are not actually working more than a person should be. The other industrialised nations perhaps work smarter without needing to work more than they should be hence reduced hour by comparison.

The question you need to ask is why do they work such long hour yet are in such debts? I bet they will give you an answer that is so convincing they would not blink when they answer ... that's how good they are.

Do they artificially inflate the working hour to justify their income or to get the necessary salary where the actual works do not require such hours?

In fact publishing those "hard working" hour can be rather embarrassing to read where the conclusion can only point to the direction that they might be talented in arguments but falling short of the brain juice? Yes?

Unless of course the alternative argument is that their hourly rate is so low they need to work long hour to survive but then they are in EU so there should be minimum wage.

😯

mbarrassing to read where the conclusion can only point to the direction that they might be talented in arguments but falling short of the brain juice? Yes?

Yes, Greeks fallng short of the brain juice. What's the minimum wage for a shop keeper, a farmer, a fisherman, a shepherd? Aren't you embarrassed to spout such moronic drivel?

richc - Member
I went to Greece shortly after it all went tits up and before I went I read an article on tax avoidance in Greece, and one thing the article mentioned was if you go to Greece take note of how many receipts you get or see being made.

From my personal experience:

1. Taxi - none
2. Hotel - none
3. Restaurants - none
4. Touristy cruise - none
5. Boat hire - none

I can only add my experience over the last few years - the only time I've taken much notice really, although we've been visiting Greece for well over 20 years and owned a house there for the last 10.

Taxi - No, I've never been given a receipt but then I haven't here (the IoM) either.
Hotel - We only use one (The Nefeli, in Plaka, in that Athens - highly recommended, BTW) and we've always paid by credit card, so not really applicable.
Restaurants - Always get a receipt, not if it's just for an ouzo and meze in some really out-of-the-way place though.
Lawyers, notaries, accountants - the worst by a long way - always want cash and are[b] very[/b] reluctant to part with receipts

That's about all I know - ok, if I pop up the road for a couple of bags of sand and a bag of cement, for example, I don't either, but I always do in my village shop and that's a village of 120 in the back of beyond.

Actually, over the last couple of years, the govt. were issuing leaflets to be displayed at retail outlets, stating that if a receipt wasn't issued the customer wasn't obliged to pay.
Although I suspect that if I didn't pay Stavros at my local builders merchants he might just take me down to his basement and demand payment in kind. Yes, [b]that[/b] kind.... 😯

Edit - re. this minimum wage stuff. If you need the money then you have to take what's offered. The wife of a good friend of mine worked all summer, seven days a week in a taverna from 6pm until they closed (which might be 1-2am in August) for €4 an hour. Obviously short on "brain juice" - much like me then.

Blimey Ernie's back - where have you been? I wondered what had happened to you.

????? ?????? ??? ????

Sloppy titles eh, defining peoples' politics incorrectly! Who needs that?!? 😉

Greeks work long hours true (lots of self employed) but productivity is poor - both need to be considered. But the simple, Greeks are lazy stereotype is not accurate.

teamhurtmore - Member
Blimey Ernie's back - where have you been? I wondered what had happened to you.

????? ?????? ??? ????

DrJ - Member

mbarrassing to read where the conclusion can only point to the direction that they might be talented in arguments but falling short of the brain juice? Yes?

Yes, Greeks fallng short of the brain juice. What's the minimum wage for a shop keeper, a farmer, a fisherman, a shepherd? Aren't you embarrassed to spout such moronic drivel?

By Zeus! Are you saying they are all of self-employed? They have that many shop keepers, farmers, fishermen and shepherds? 😯

Next time I shall call my Greek friends 'peasant' to see how they react ... I bet the opening sentence of their reply will be "... ?????? ...". Also imagine if I call them goat herders ... 😆

Aren't you slightly exaggerating? I mean even my Greek friends are not shop keepers, farmers or fishermen let alone shepherds?

Nahhh ... you are not as good as the Greek in arguments. 😆

teamhurtmore - Member

But the simple, Greeks are lazy stereotype is not accurate.

If that is not the case then there can only be two possibilities:

1. Lack brain juice that equate less return which most argue is not the case.

2. Too much brain juice that encourage exploitation, yes?

😯

Andy R - Member

Edit - re. this minimum wage stuff. If you need the money then you have to take what's offered. The wife of a good friend of mine worked all summer, seven days a week in a taverna from 6pm until they closed (which might be 1-2am in August) for €4 an hour. Obviously short on "brain juice" - much like me then.

No, they just paid Mrs/you the equivalent in Peso ... 😆

In not following this, but is Ernie Jamie's other login or what?

bet they will give you an answer that is so convincing they would not blink when they answer ... that's how good they are.

You're sailing close to racism there, I would say.

codybrennan - Member

bet they will give you an answer that is so convincing they would not blink when they answer ... that's how good they are.

You're sailing close to racism there, I would say.

😯 In what sense? Seriously.

Maybe I'm just cynical about any stats produced from Greece but 2024 hours on average per worker there seems pretty unlikely to me.

In assuming that there's an innate characteristic of a race (nation, actually) .

codybrennan - Member

In assuming that there's an innate characteristic of a race (nation, actually) .

I see.

What if I say they are highly intelligent for their own good? Or far more intelligent than other EU nations for their own benefits? Or a nation that miscalculated their own abilities? Would that be inappropriate?

😯

</leaves thread>

codybrennan - Member
</leaves thread>

😯

chewkw - Member

No, they just paid Mrs/you the equivalent in Peso ...

You've lost me there - who was talking about "me" anyway?

And I do have Greek friends who are shopkeepers, shepherds and farmers - same as I do here.

...2024 hours on average per worker there seems pretty unlikely to me.

Perhaps the statistical information provided by the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development has been tainted to provide a "pro-Greek" bias, while simultaneously suggesting that the Germans are among the most workshy and lazy of any industrialised country?

The Washington Post has enthusiastically accepted the OECD figures publishing the above graph and an article to accompany it:

[url= http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2014/05/16/greeks-work-harder-than-germans-who-knew/ ]Greeks work harder than Germans. Who knew?[/url]

However an anonymous punter on some mountain bike forum who apparently has been to [i]"Greece and Islands several times"[/i] and has personally witnessed that Greeks [i]"always seem to be sitting around drinking coffee in the coffee shops"[/i] is able to put a different perspective on the issue.

Take your choice.

🙂

Can we trade chewkw's standard drivel for codybrennan, please? So very tedious.

Andy R - Member
You've lost me there - who was talking about "me" anyway?

And I do have Greek friends who are shopkeepers, shepherds and farmers - same as I do here.

I mean the pay is as low if not the same wage rate as in 3rd/developing world pay. 🙄 How can that be in EU that is my "hint" ...

The ones I know are ship captain, EU bureaucrat, professor, hotelier, some other intellectual types and would quickly play down their nation as a nation of self employed. Especially, the ones you mentioned. They would swear at me if I say that, seriously.

😯

I mean the pay is as low if not the same wage rate as in 3rd/developing world pay. How can that be in EU that is my "hint" ...

The ones I know are ship captain, EU bureaucrat, professor, hotelier, some other intellectual types and would quickly play down their nation as a nation of self employed.

But farmers, shepherds, fishermen, builders, village shopkeepers, taxi drivers etc [b]are[/b] frequently self-employed, whether that's in Greece, in Britain or pretty much anywhere else that I can think of.

I suppose that your "intellectual types" might well have a disparaging view of people like that, but then I know some people here who have much the same attitude.
They're not my friends though, nor will they ever be.

erhaps the statistical information provided by the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development has been tainted to provide a "pro-Greek" bias, while simultaneously suggesting that the Germans are among the most workshy and lazy of any industrialised country?

Every other stat that came out of Greece appears to be tainted so I don't know enough about where this one came from to know if it's also suspect. OECD aren't likely to have directly gathered the information themselves.

There is another measure of working hours used across the EU and produced by Eurostat. From it the Greek working hours look pretty typical e.g. for a full-time worker it shows an average of 40.7 hours per working week, which compares to 40.6 for Germany and 42.4 for the UK.

The OECD and Eurostat numbers might reconcile based on factors like how holidays are accounted and what happens with 2nd jobs - but based on those it does make the huge difference between Germany and Greece look unlikely.

Welcome back indeed to @ernie. Given the Labour Party and the government of Hollande aren't left enough for him it's fitting he's back to champion Syriza's cause.

Anti-austerity is very popular as many voters want the ability to walk away from past debts to not pay the price for past excess, to effectively get something for nothing. Of course people in other countries want some of that. This amused me this morning.

[img] [/img]

The EU and the IMF want their money back, the bailout was exactly that with terms and conditions. The tax payers of the eurozone lead by Germany have no interest in paying for excesses of the Greeks via debt write-off.

OECD aren't likely to have directly gathered the information themselves.

Unlike people who have been to Greece and Islands several times and have hung around coffee shops taking note of the situation ?

The difference in the figures provided by OECD for hours worked annually in Greece and Germany is huge, 2,034 to 1,397, if the conclusion is false, ie, Germans actually work more hours annually than the Greeks (as someone who hangs around a Greek and German coffee shops might have noticed) then this represents a staggering failure by the OECD whose brief in a very large part requires it to provide reliable statical information concerning economic activity of different nations.

Presumably not only the figures released by the OECD for Greece are unreliable but also the ones for Germany which places the Germans second from the bottom in terms of hours worked......did the Germans exaggerate how little they work ? Or are they just not very good at providing statistics ?

As I say, you have a choice - by all means believe the myth of sudden Greek "laziness" if it helps you to simply and easily understand the causes of the Greek economic crises.

Choose the lazy and uncomplicated explanation if you find that easier 🙂

I think it's easier to see the Germans being far more efficient and productive, it's productivity which really matters.

I would treat any statistics coming out of Greece whether compiled by the OECD or otherwise with a very large pinch of salt. Same as the point about the very high levels of self employed, it doesn't demonstrate entrepreneurialism it's a symptom of tax avoidance.

Hi Ernie *waves*

Arguing about comparative working hours is all pretty pointless really. We are where we are. How we got here is academic. Though the words 'single currency' should suffice.

The point is that In one corner we've the newly elected Greek government who have only one mandate. To renegotiate the terms of the bailout. Or magic away their debts. In the other corner we've got the German electorate, who want their billions back. Behind them, in Brussels, is the real power in Europe who simply can't countenance any shift in policy to Greece, because of the precedent it will set. They just cannot let that happen! Under any circumstances!

So the aims of the two are totally incompatible, and neither can compromise. So there is no good outcome . Theres not even a least worst option really. Not if you're Greek anyway. They're ****ed! Well and truly! I suspect they're in for one hell of a reality check once the initial post-election euphoria has passed. Which should be sometime about...... now!

What happens after the new saviours fail to deliver? Which they surely will. Who knows?

Welcome to the next exciting instalment of the Eurofarce economic roller-coaster money-pit! Brought to you by the usual clueless, monumentally incompetent suspects in Brussels

Anti-austerity is very popular as many voters want the ability to walk away from past debts to not pay the price for past excess, to effectively get something for nothing.

Here you go again with your blaming the victim. How many times does it have to pointed out that the debts that are currently being shouldered by the Greek people, and all the horrific consequences of them have been forced on them through no choice of their own, while the people who created the situation through their own corruption and greed have escaped scot free.

jambalaya - Member

to effectively get something for nothing

Or to stop paying for the something that someone else got.

No no no no ! The benefits of all this borrowing were the Greek people, rank and file ordinary people. That's exactly the point. It is their responsibility.

Did anyone see Channel 4 News, Peter Snow interviewing the expected to be finance minister. Syriza the money had "gone down the drain" and Peter Snow pointed out, "yes its gone down your drain". It's the Greeks who have spent it.

jambalaya - Member

No no no no !

I really hope you were stamping your feet when you typed that. Jambalaya Bott.

Most of the bailout money has gone servicing debts. Doesn't it make more sense to rebuild and reform the economy so they can pay their own debts rather than saying it's 'bailing out' but actually tipping most of the water back in the boat?

Presumably not only the figures released by the OECD for Greece are unreliable but also the ones for Germany which places the Germans second from the bottom in terms of hours worked......did the Germans exaggerate how little they work ? Or are they just not very good at providing statistics?

Which is exactly the problem. You want to latch onto the one statistic you found which shows the Greeks as the hardest working in Europe - however that's just one statistic for a country and organisation that we know the statistics were fiddled with. What I'm saying is that there doesn't appear to be anything to back up the statistics you used (on Greece or Germany) and in fact other statistics cast doubt on the ones you're using.

If you want to continue on with your argument then that's of course fine - but it's typical conspiracy theory nutter behaviour to pick up one stat or piece of info that happens to support your theory then run with it.

I've never been to Greece so have no axe to grind one way or the other on how hard working they are. I have lived and worked in Germany (and in other European countries) though and those OECD stats doesn't seem to match what I was seeing. I know nothing about what the OECD's agenda is or how they get their data - although I did notice that the info for working hours didn't have a consistent source for all the countries included.

No no no no ! The benefits of all this borrowing were the Greek people, rank and file ordinary people. That's exactly the point. It is their responsibility.

You really have a warped view on the world don't you. I accept that some ordinary people benefited. But as I've said repeatedly, they weren't ever given an alternative option or a choice. You criticise them for being irresponsible for accepting the 'benefits', but there was no mechanism for them not to, and no reason for them to think it was necessary because the politicians, the very same people whom you now support, were telling them that it was all ok and there was nothing to worry about. So in any rational or objective appraisal, you can't say that the people themselves were responsible.

Apologies if this has already been covered in this thread, but with such high unemployment in Greece, how come we haven't seen more young Greek workers appearing in the UK?

I know a few.

jambalaya - Member

No no no no ! The benefits of all this borrowing were the Greek people, rank and file ordinary people. That's exactly the point. It is their responsibility.

[i]Especially[/i] the ones that weren't born.

Or the ones of working age who have never claimed benefits or (obviously) pension.

dazh - Member
Here you go again with your blaming the victim. How many times does it have to pointed out that the debts that are currently being shouldered by the Greek people, and all the horrific consequences of them have been forced on them through no choice of their own, while the people who created the situation through their own corruption and greed have escaped scot free.

It doesn't matter how many times, it's whether this is accurate. The consequences are not the debt per se (jambas is correct on the positive side of that), they are (1) the unsustainable levels of debt and the policies required to deal with this ie austerity and (2) locking yourself into a fixed exchange rate - massive internal wage deflation and/or unemployment. The two together create immense pain that unites the (far) left and right.

Of course, the solution that the Greeks won't and have voted for is a pipe dream and cannot be delivered. Sadly....

Or to stop paying for the something that someone else got.

You really have a warped view on the world don't you.

On a separate note it’s startling to see the anti German stance of Syriza, their leader describing Germany as being the "Fourth Reich" and making the point of departing from tradition in not laying a wreath at the tomb of the unknown soldier but placing one at a memorial for 200 communists murdered by the Germans in WW2. A deliberate positioning of Syriza and Greece against the German oppressor. Very dangerous.

jambalaya - Member
@dazh, I say again its strange eh how my view is absolutely consistent with that of governments around Europe who I believe strongly represent the views of their populations ?

[img] [/img]

Well they voted Tony Blair a peace envoy so

he { tony Blair] was officially confirmed as Middle East envoy for the United Nations, European Union, United States, and Russia

There you go that must be right and the will of the voters.
Its still an appeal to authority - why are you using a fallacious argument to prove your point?

who I believe strongly represent the views of their populations

Is there even an EU govt with 50% of the votes cast never mind the electorate?

FWIW I think we would all agree the EU is considerably keener on integration than the population.

I say again its strange eh how my view is absolutely consistent with that of governments around Europe who I believe strongly represent the views of their populations

Like I said, it's a warped view. Considering the events of the last 30-odd years I think you'd struggle to claim that western governments represent the views of their populations. I'm no conspiracist, but you seem to have a naive, and blind faith in the probity, integrity and motivations of the people and institutions who govern us.

binners - Member

Hi Ernie *waves*

Arguing about comparative working hours is all pretty pointless really. We are where we are. How we got here is academic. Though the words 'single currency' should suffice.

Well of course. Someone suggested that the Greeks spent all their time in coffee shops and that it was no wonder Greece was "bust".

Quite why the Greeks should suddenly have become lazy at the same time as the single currency was introduced wasn't explained.

I suggested that there was no evidence that the Greeks worked any less hard than anyone else and that the introduction of the Euro had much more to do with their financial woes.

Although bizarrely epicsteve accuses me of, quote : [i]"typical conspiracy theory nutter behaviour"[/i] for suggesting such a thing 🙂

who I believe strongly represent the views of their populations

@ernie, yes the introduction of the euro allowed Greece to borrow in a way which was impossible before. It's the reason Greece wants to stay in the euro because if they are not they will have very little borrowing ability.

All a bit tongue in cheek from me posting this but here is the famous open letter the tabloid "Bild" published/sent to the Greek PM

[i]Dear prime minister,

If you're reading this, you've entered a country different from yours. You're in Germany.

Here, people work until they are 67 and there is no 14th-month salary for civil servants. Here, nobody needs to pay a €1,000 bribe to get a hospital bed in time.

Our petrol stations have cash registers, taxi drivers give receipts and farmers don't swindle EU subsidies with millions of non-existent olive trees.

Germany also has high debts but we can settle them. That's because we get up early and work all day.

We want to be friends with the Greeks. That's why since joining the euro, Germany has given your country €50bn.[/i]

I didn't see this before, Bild published another letter 2 years ago in Greek which seems prescient. I wonder what they are saying today.

[i]Dear Greeks,

You are a proud people, a proud nation. Sunday you have yet another set of elections. You say: We're free. Bild says: It's in your hands. There is a difference.

If you did not want our billions, it would have been fine by us for you to vote for any leftists or rightist clown you wanted. But for over two years now, the situation is like this:

Your ATMs continue to give you euros, only because we put them there, the Germans and the other nations that have the euro. Yet you still, calls us Nazis, which we do not fine funny. But anyway.

But let's be clear on this: If the elections are won by parties that want to put an end to austerity and reform, breaching every agreement, we will stop paying.

The agreement was: you fix your country and meanwhile we will help you. If you do not want this anymore, then we do not want it either.

It's in your hands. You have elections Sunday. But you have no options. You will choose between painful logic and complete disaster. And we are very much afraid that you don't get that yet.

Yours in friendship, Your Bild.[/i]

[url= http://www.novinite.com/articles/140391/German+Tabloid+Issues+Insulting+Election+Warning+to+Greece ]Link: Bild publishes insulting letter to Greek voters[/url]

I think the Greeks are totally entitled to vote for a party that will end austerity measures. The problem is they probably believe they will continue to get money no-strings. They may, but it's a pretty ballsy bluff to try.

Surely the Germans of all people should be aware of the danger of forcing an impoverished country to pay off debts it can't afford? It didn't work out too well in the 1930's.

yes the introduction of the euro allowed Greece to borrow in a way which was impossible before.

And who was it doing the lending? The Germans have to accept some/a lot of responsibility for this. It was they who allowed them to enter the Euro on a fraudulent basis. At the very least they didn't conduct proper due diligence, more likely they knew full well they were cooking the books. It was German banks doing the lending, and German industry who then benefited from the resultant consumer spending spree. It was the German govt who vetoed mechanisms which would have relieved the pressure on ailing economies early in the crisis, it was Germany who vetoed any move to offer joint euro-wide debt and bank guarantees, and it was Germany who refused to allow ECB support for ailing euro economies. Is it any wonder some in Greece are now comparing Germany to the 4th Reich?

Every other stat that came out of Greece appears to be tainted so I don't know enough about where this one came from to know if it's also suspect. OECD aren't likely to have directly gathered the information themselves.

Fair enough Lets just continue on the basis of the observations of someone who once went to Greece and saw someone in a cafe. Or someone who didn't go to Greece but heard about it from someone else. I'm sure that will be informative.

I didn't have Ernie down as a zerohedge reader, but good points also discussed here:

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-01-26/lazy-greeks-fault-these-two-charts-suggest-otherwise

Atlaz, indeed the euphoria will be short lived. Greece needs more money, soon

DrJ - what happened go previous German debt!?!

http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/economic-historian-germany-was-biggest-debt-transgressor-of-20th-century-a-769703.html

duplicate

jambalaya - Member

@Northwind do you see the irony in that statement,

There's no irony- you're just trying to avoid the point. You want to depict the Greeks as people who want to "get something for nothing" and who are "responsible", I'm simply pointing out that many of the people paying the price were neither responsible, nor those who gained. Diversion tactics just suggest you know how weak your argument is.

You can say "that's just the way it is" but you can't pretend it's fair, or reasonable.

@dazh all the euro block members allowed the Greeks to enter, Sarkozy went as far as to admit it had been a mistake. It's very political the way the Greeks position Germany as the bad guy here when their stance in echoed by most (all?) of the other euro block countries. I do remember a number of the Eastern European countries being very critical of Greece at the time of the first bailout arguing they had kept their house in order why should they, as part of the euro, have to subsidise Greece etc who had over borrowed. You could also argue Germany is doing a lot to support Greece, the EU has provided euro 240bn in bailout funding and I suspect the Germans are a very large part of that. Many European banks plus international investors like pension funds provided the debt Greece used to support its economic programme, its the Greeks who are positioning it as Germany vs Greece when in fact its the EU/euro block as a whole.

@DrJ firstly Greece is no where near as impoverished as was Germany after WW1 it remains the beneficiary of approx euro 300bn in loans including 60bn keeping the Greek banks afloat (approx 20bn has been withdrawn from Greek banks in the past couple of months to be sent abroad) and secondly it poses no military threat to anyone. The worst thing the Greeks can do is default on all of their debt and throw all their toys out of the window.

You could also argue Germany is doing a lot to support Greece

Like a loan-shark supports his borrowers by lending them more money to pay off previous debts. At least a loan shark would break the legs of the person who actually borrowed the money, rather than a bunch of people with very little connection to them who had no say in whether the initial loans were taken out.

Jambalaya - r u sure? Default, devalue, big one-off hit. Pretty fast reaction and GDP allowed to recover subsequently. Remember Asia? Tough ST remedies are often the best policy.

Plus give creditors a reminder that they have a responsibility to think about those they lend to. Which major debt crisis has avoided creditors taking the pain? The lesson from J M Keynes....

Slightly tangential as it addresses a related point but see last para on oage 2 here

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firstly Greece is no where near as impoverished as was Germany after WW1 it remains the beneficiary of approx euro 300bn in loans including 60bn keeping the Greek banks afloat (approx 20bn has been withdrawn from Greek banks in the past couple of months to be sent abroad) and secondly it poses no military threat to anyone.

Of course the military threat is of no relevance whatsoever. As for the benefits of the huge loans, the point is that those are not supporting anyone's rent or food bills. Ordinary Greeks are becoming more and more impoverished.

And that's the issue really - "austerity" is not working. Tax receipts are DOWN even though tax rates have increased, because there are just not enough people working to pay the new higher taxes. It's just a matter of pragnatism - if the Germans really want their money back, this isn't the way to get it.

Has Germany paid back (with interest) the loan it forced Greece to give it in the early 40s yet?

It's rhetorical of course, Germany claims it was stolen rather than loaned and so not repayable

DrJ - Greece was never going to be able to "grow" itself out of trouble. Basic debt dynamic calculators showed that. But the can keeps being kicked down the road because the only way out remains off the agenda for the moment - they need to exit the €. Until then, they are buggered and the young, workers will bear the brunt of this folly.

Although bizarrely epicsteve accuses me of, quote : "typical conspiracy theory nutter behaviour" for suggesting such a thing

It's because you're hanging on to what looks a questionable statistic to "prove" your point. Given the stat itself looks dodgy (and isn't supported by other evidence), then it devalues your argument.

I honestly don't care one way or the other, however a stat that shows the Greeks as being way out of line with the rest of the EU looked dodgy to me - and on digging around continues to look dodgy. The other stats I've seen puts Greece roughly in line with other countries (including Germany), which sounds more believable. Those stats (the EU's own) indicate that the Greeks record about the same number of hours worked as the Germans - which might support your argument that they're not lazy (which I've no issue with personally) but doesn't support the point made about them being the hardest working in the EU and working way longer hours than the Germans.

I honestly don't care one way or the other

I think you do

I think you do

Only about the abuse of statistics.

Have a word with the OECD, and perhaps write strongly worded letters to the Washington Post, the BBC, and the other news providers who reported the OECD findings ?

And Ernie, you can write to them to complain about the "far left" comments 😉

Anyway back to Greece, so varoufakis is not messing about - "Europe is willing to negotiate haircuts - anything else is a waste of time."

The opening gambit....

DrJ - Greece was never going to be able to "grow" itself out of trouble

Could well be, but giving them a hand would mean that they could pay back something and get on their feet again without massive social disruption, whereas the IMF recipe has just resulted in loss all around. (Except for the bankers, of course, but that is what we expect.)