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The Greeks need to reap what they have sown.
Hmm.. but that won't happen.
The working class people of Greece will reap what previous governments have sown though.. the actual individuals responsible will still be well off I'm sure.
I must reluctantly concede that binners may actually have a point this time.
Have a word with yourself will you its not a pastry based thread is it 😉
jambalaya - MemberIsn't it perverse how people make money out of money?
Money from money and not perverse at all.
And money speaks for money, the devil for his own.
Thanks for the rest of it, I've often wondered how you suck eggs. Doesn't mean I don't find it perverse though.
I recommend going to Greece and looking around.
I haven't visited the country for 15 years and have no intention of doing so. I've heard too many experiences of corruption there, eg my mate had to stop in port for emergency repairs to his boat, he was told it was euro 10,000 for a safety certificate to allow him to leave or euro 6,000 in cash. Paying back money you over borrowed isn't painless. Greece is suffering far less pain now than if they had defaulted and far less pain than they will suffer if Greece exits the euro. Instead of complaining about austerity the Greeks should be thankful they were not forcibly ejected from the euro a few years ago. As posted above they should never ever have been allowed to join.
The working class people of Greece will reap what previous governments have sown though.. the actual individuals responsible will still be well off I'm sure.
@molgrips but its the Greek working class (and retired) who have benefited, that's where most of the borrowed money went.
jambalaya - Member
@molgrips but its the Greek working class (and retired) who have benefited, that's where most of the borrowed money went.
😆
I doubt the 'greek working class' are of one mind though. And besides - they just took what was on offer - as you would.
My point is that those who will suffer are NOT those actually responsible.
who comes to speak for the skin and the bone ?
It is comedy gold from Jam
Its like having our very own pub landlord.
The European Union made the rules of admission into the Euro, regarding public spending as a percentage of GDP etc, then they completely ignored them to allow the likes of Greece and Italy to join. They were nowhere near meeting the stated criteria. So the powers that be in Brussels are as complicit in this shambles as any Greek politicians.
Not that you'd know it given the lack of contrition.
But a lack of contrition seems to be par for the course for just about everyone responsible for the economic meltdown. Its business as usual for the people who caused it, who remain personally unaffected. I suppose we could always boot them out of office at the Euro elections. Oh... hang on a minute. No we can't, because all the people making the decisions are unelected eurocrats, and the European Parliament, such as it is, is an anti-democratic sham. Business as usual it is then!
As posted above they should never ever have been allowed to join.
As I recall the only countries that actually met the original Maastricht criteria for Euro membership were Luxembourg and Finland.
This feels like the beginning of the end of the EU in its current manifestation.
Its fifty-fifty whether Greece and the UK will be in it in three years time.
This feels like the beginning of the end of the EU in its current manifestation.
Lets hope so eh? Before they bankrupt the entire continent.
Sounds like theres some bizarre horse trading going on to form a coalition. A possible pact between people I've heard being referred to as Communists, and some far right parties. The only thing that unites them is their opposition to austerity. I can't see that lasting more than 5 minutes
And a spokesman for Merkel has just reaffirmed that there will be no renegotiation on debt repayments
Its all going well then. The Eurozone marches on on its illustrious path
anagallis_arvensis - Member
Am I right in thinking Greece's problems are down to Germany's gain?
Not exactly. Germany gained from implicit devaluation of DM and open markets. Hence ran currency account surplus. But to offset that, what happens? They have to run a capital account deficit to make BoP balance, hence capital flows out of Germany into the same places. So they get stung if that money is not paid back. Plus they get stung if the economies in the deficit/indebted countries are depresses - as we do.
The krone issue? After the Swiss franc abandoned their peg, the risk is that the Danish Krone may end up in the same situation, leading to the peg being abandoned and the the DK appreciating as the CHF did recently.
Don't forget (1h behind all the fancy worlds, QE is essentially hidden currency wars. But wrap this up in fa new language and you might just get away with it.
Don't forget (2), not paying back what you owe is theft. And the losers, the taxpayer. It's not an innocent story or an issue of stick together comrades.
jambalaya - Member
@DrJ - austerity is working as Greece is starting to be in a position to repay it's debts.
Sorry, jambas, but that's incorrect on both counts.
Talking of extremes, a left party entering a coalition with the far right???? The € always throws up these weird contradictions.
Its like you and Binners played out in the real world 😀
This was drawn for the UK but the same applies to Greece. The debt has caught up with today's population
[img] 
[/img]
The question now ...
Is it time to buy or sell EURO?
😀
austerity is working as Greece is starting to be in a position to repay it's debts
The thousands on the street relying on food banks, and the kids who are fainting in school due to malnutrition will be ever so pleased to hear that the German banks are finally having their bonds repaid. It must be so comforting 🙄
Aside from the headlines about the Euro/Debt/Germany etc, perhaps the most interesting thing happening is the [url= http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jan/23/greece-solidarity-movement-cooperatives-syriza ]quiet revolution at a grassroots level[/url]. It'll be interesting to see whether Syriza embraces this further or abandons it now that it has it's hands on power. Hopefully they'll do the former and resist the temptations that previous leftwing governments around the world have fallen for.
Sorry, jambas, but that's incorrect on both counts.
TMH, Economist on the TV last night said Greece was running a budget surplus (ex debt service) of 4% of GDP, so that's progress towards being able to repay no ?
As I recall the only countries that actually met the original Maastricht criteria for Euro membership were Luxembourg and Finland.
DrJ, Germany certainly didn't qualify to join, I remember that well. It would make sense what you say.
The thousands on the street relying on food banks, and the kids who are fainting in school due to malnutrition will be ever so pleased to hear that the German banks are finally having their bonds repaid. It must be so comforting
@dazh that should serve as a painful lesson not to live wildly beyond their means. AFAIK most of the debt is with public sector organisations now so it's German taxpayers who are on the hooks not so much their banks. All those Greek doctors who work as self employed and take 50% of their bill as cash in hand should be the ones feeling guilty about their fellow citizens.
[url= http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/international/greeks-vote-to-stop-having-shit-kicked-out-of-them-2015012694755 ]Nicely summed up by the Mash[/url] 😀
TMH, Economist on the TV last night said Greece was running a budget surplus (ex debt service) of 4% of GDP, so that's progress towards being able to repay no ?
It's true that they have run a short term surplus, but not even close to avoid eventual default/restructuring. Unless they do something fancy with perpetuals or the like. The debt dynamics cannot be solved, certainly not without growth. Austerity cannot deliver growth - it's a contractionary policy not an expansionary one. They need to restructure. Creditors will have to take another hit (European taxpayers again nb not the banks anymore and the risk has been taken off their balance sheets, plus ca change).
Greece needs a devaluation, with one off hit to allow it to recover. The lessons from history are perfectly clear. After the euphoria of the past 24 hours have sunk in, the grim reality will have to be faced. I think another trance of funding is due this month, so tough questions will need to be answered before then.
"The thousands on the street relying on food banks, and the kids who are fainting in school due to malnutrition will be ever so pleased to hear that the German banks are finally having their bonds repaid. It must be so comforting"@dazh that should serve as a painful lesson not to live wildly beyond their means.
Do you honestly believe that people now relying on food banks have ever lived "wildly beyond their means"?
@dazh that should serve as a painful lesson not to live wildly beyond their means
Come on now. Do you really actually believe that the people suffering now were the ones who were responsible for and benefited from the previous largesse? IIRC the people responsible for cooking the books when they joined the euro were centre-right conservatives who were in the pockets of the shipping magnates and german banks who stood to make billions from Greece's entry into the Euro. But still, lets carry on with the fiction that it was the ordinary greeks to blame for living a life of state-funded luxury.
Christine Lagarde, the head of the International Monetary Fund, has just said:
[i]“There are internal euro zone rules to be respected,” Lagarde told Le Monde daily. “We cannot make special categories for such or such country.”[/i]
Looks like they're definitely on a collision course then.
Lots of people were responsible - the Greeks, their politicians, the European politicians, the bankers (Greek and foreign). With a heady cocktail of villains like that, it was only ever going to end in tears.
Still impressive that so far, this has been channeled through the ballot box rather than violence and mass unrest.
It might appear as if the creditors have an extra card in this particular case - they can throw Greece out of the Eurozone. Be absolutely clear, that is a threat being made by the creditors. Greece under Syriza has no intention of leaving the Euro, even if they defaulted on all their debt, so they would have to be forced out. I have never seen it set out clearly how the rest of the Eurozone would force Greece to leave without compromising the independence of the ECB, but let’s assume that they have the power to do so. Would the Eurozone ever carry out this threat?Expelling Greece from the Eurozone because they wanted to renegotiate their debts would be an incredibly stupid thing to do. For a start, the creditors would lose everything, because obviously Greece would go for complete default in those circumstances. In addition, individuals and markets would immediately worry that the same fate might befall other periphery countries. (The story that Dani Rodrik tells is all too plausible.) What would be the gain?
[url] http://mainlymacro.blogspot.co.uk/2015/01/let-us-hope-for-syriza-victory.html [/url]
But to balance that out:
If all the economists were laid end to end, they'd never reach a conclusion.[i]George Bernard Shaw[/i]
Still impressive that so far, this has been channeled through the ballot box rather than violence and mass unrest.
Indeed, and the imbeciles of the EU might well reflect that if the Greek path is rejected, then the violence will likely follow, in Greece and elsewhere.
I think it as brilliant result sadly a few years later than would have been really helpful. Greece needs debt relief it's economy is crippled by the debt burden and constant cuts to the economy stuck in a vicious downward economic circle. I hope Germany sees sense at negotiates write downs in exchange for some reforms, I don't think Germany was against debt write down in the London Debt Agreement.
Euro is definitely not the ideal currency for Greece at the moment but many seem to want to stick with it to be part of Europe.
Indeed, and the imbeciles of the EU might well reflect that if the Greek path is rejected, then the violence will likely follow, in Greece and elsewhere.
The EU will come up with numerous can-kicking exercises and empty promises to bide their time. They still think they can get things going with QE - although as in the West, only the top 1% will benefit.
Personally I think taking to the streets is long overdue - the situation can only be resolved with the ballet box and street demonstrations - this feels like the early days of the collapse of the Soviet Union.
The EU will come up with numerous can-kicking exercises and empty promises to bide their time. They still think they can get things going with QE - although as in the West, only the top 1% will benefit.
The EU is part of the West. The 99% in Greece are finding out what lack of growth in a successful economy really means. In fact its the 100% because any wealthy Greek person with an ounce of sense got out a long time ago. People here complaining about static wages in a growing economy need to understand quite how bad the alternative would have been.
What Greece is experiencing today feels like austerity as they have lived on an orgy of debt for so long they've come to believe that was normal.
Do you honestly believe that people now relying on food banks have ever lived "wildly beyond their means"?
@Dr J and @dazh, I was referring to the whole country so in a sense yes absolutely. As I posted in Greece in particular it was the ordinary person who has benefitted hugely from welfare payments made with unsustainably large amounts of borrowed money
This is an old piece from Michael Lewis - 2010 - but it's worth a read. The Greek railway is so expensive and inefficient it would be cheaper (in theory) to just pay for everyone to get a taxi. I don't know how many government workers are now at food banks but they have certainly benefitted
[url= http://www.vanityfair.com/business/features/2010/10/greeks-bearing-bonds-201010 ]Vanity Fair[/url]
That article is bonkers! 😯
Somehow I think that a party promising 10,000 new public sector jobs probably isn't the answer to the countries problems
It is unfair to keep blaming Greece's problems on the welfare state, tax avoidance was always a bigger problem there, and still the problem which has had the least action taken on.
As I posted in Greece in particular it was the ordinary person who has benefitted hugely from welfare payments made with unsustainably large amounts of borrowed money
So the government buys off the people as a means to enriching their friends in the shipping and banking industries. And you blame the people? Quick question, do you think a Greek public sector worker in 2008 should have voluntarily given up 40% of their salary, paid holidays/sick leave and their pension rights in order to 'save' the Greek economy? Your idea of who should be responsible in these circumstances is completely upside down. The Greek people have had a fraud committed against them by those who were in power at the time on a scale never before seen, and you want to blame the victims!
He is fairly consistent in blaming the victim / getting it wrong
Ask about Israel if you need more examples [ with the added bonus of hypocrisy in action as its wrong when they do it to Israel and right when Israel does it pre-emptively obviously. Its a tortured example of what passes as "thinking" ]
Jambalaya 3 hours ago
So what happens next, a great deal of uncertainty as a new government won't be formed for a few weeks yet
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/greece/11369232/Greek-election-Syriza-forms-new-government-with-Right-wing-populist-party.html Torygraph 2 hours ago
hope your not taking up fortune telling.
Going into a coalition with a right wing party seems to me to say that the anti austerity policy is paramount for Syriza
It is unfair to keep blaming Greece's problems on the welfare state, tax avoidance was always a bigger problem there, and still the problem which has had the least action taken on.
Surely the problem was the size of the welfare state compared to the tax collected. You can have low taxes*, [b]or[/b] high government spending**, but you have to pick [b]one[/b].
*tax evasion
**borrowing
That government coalition isn't going to make it to the end of the week.
Mind you, it could give the EU its usual answer when it comes to democracy, such as validating treaties. It can carry on sending the electorate away to repeat the exercise until it comes back with the correct result
@gordimor - I appreciate the logic of your post but they've agreed to form a government but that doesn't actually happen till Feb 16. That's what I was referring to in my earlier post. I would agree anti-austerity is their main agenda, they just want the rest of Europe to pay euro 140 billion for the privilege of having Greece remain in the euro.
@MSP, I have made a number of references to the dire state of tax collection. However, even if they collected all of those taxes it would make little difference.
@JY, its about accepting responsibility. Collectively he Greek people are a victim of no one except themselves. As "for getting it wrong" just as I have posted before it's funny how my line of argument seems to follow and generally support what governments and organisations around the world actually do. The various EU bodies have come out saying quite clearly if Greeks want to continue to receive bailout funds they must honour the agreements signed a few years ago which have lead to the budget cuts/austerity. Greece was bailed out last time as there was a concern a default/euro exist would impact other weak eurozone countires (Ireland, Portugal and the biggies of Italy and Spain). If the EU take the view they are now in a better position to weather the fallout from a Greek exit the Greeks will be "told take it or leave it".
Jam if I were you I would google appeal to authority
Amusing, but predictable, that you use a fallacy to defend your view
you never fail to deliver.
Stop bickering you two. Or I'll bang your bloody heads together!
That new Greek coalition is a bit like a coalition involving you pair. I'll give it a week 😀
Somehow I think that a party promising 10,000 new public sector jobs probably isn't the answer to the countries problems
Which tells you something about the electorate.
jambalaya - Member@JY, its about accepting responsibility.
It's about expecting every individual in a country to accept responsibility for something they may have had nothing to do with. Including a bunch that weren't born. I look forward to you accepting responsibility for your neighbour's credit card bill and the gambling debts of the dude that lived in your house before you.
I'll give it a week
Amusing 😆 [ and stops bickering ] but its more like you and THM uniting to hate the Euro zone though it wont last as long as that love in 😛
Collectively he Greek people are a victim of no one except themselves.
I hope you're a troll.
26% Unemployed.
60% Youth unemployment.
Wages down 38%
Pensions down 45%
32% Below the poverty line
33% with no access to healthcare
18% unable to meet their basic food needs
Number of corrupt politicians, bankers and industrialists in prison: 0
Amount of tax paid by shipping, construction and energy industries: 0
Still. They had it coming didn't they! 🙄
I listened to an interview with the Syriza ecconomic representative this morning on R4, essentially the fella likely to take over Greece's finances.
TBH what He was saying made perfect sense and seemed pretty conciliatory with the EU...
Basically the EU negotiated borrowing and repayment schedule for Greece is unsustainable, growing unemployment and homelessness is crippling the country, They don't want out of the EU or the Euro, and they don't want to shirk repaying their debts, but a collapsed Greece with rocketing debts wouldn't exactly be a great advert for European integration, so they want to renegotiate the EU deal and actually try and stimulate their economy...
They Key point he made was that most of the EU loans never actually go into the Greek economy, they are passed straight onto servicing their lenders.
It's not a particularly fantastic deal for anyone involved...
Time will tell, I'm interested to see where Greece goes once it leaves "Austerity" behind and tries to grow it's way out of economic depression.
This is an interesting article
http://www.theguardian.com/society/2013/may/15/recessions-hurt-but-austerity-kills
Given the consequeces of further austerity for its citizens what should a greek government do ? Is "the market" the best arbiter. I don't think so.
I heard that as well and thought the same cookeaa. He didn't exactly sound like an anarchist, or some kind of communist.
What he was saying is that for any of this to be sustainable, in the long term, the one essential ingredient is economic growth. You can't continue repayments with a constantly contracting economy. It just won't work.
Which clearly demonstrates the constraints of modern capitalism, and the dearth of creativity in economic circles. When any deviation from the prevailing neo-liberal orthodoxy, no matter how slight, is immediately decried as heresy, and apocalyptic predictions ensue
Its hardly like its a system thats covered itself in glory over the last ten years. But politicians of all colours are inexplicably still in its thrall. Its tragic really.
The old Greek government were playing fast and loose with borrowed money but the Greek people kept voting them in to do it!....their welfare state was frankly ridiculous, early retirement was the norm, tax evasion was rife...but yeah, the electorate had nothing to do with it! 🙄
Greece will continue to be in this problem (under the EU or otherwise) unless their is a culture change, tax avoidance seems to be a national pastime...culturally that needs to change and that has to come from the people...people need to accept that they will work into their 60s like every other country, again this has to be accepted by the poeple or they will continually shoot themselves in the foot by voting for whatever pie-in-the-sky-party tells them they can have it all and retire early to boot....welfare will have to be less extravagant, again a government can put this in place but it comes to nothing if the electorate wont accept it and just vote the 'nasty party' out each time something is done to try and control debt...
...blaming governments is very easy but us idiots vote them in and then take an 'ostrich with its head in the sand' attitude to politics when the reality of what our economy can deliver is vastly different to our expectations.
One of the things that the chap on R4 said had to change was 'tax immunity' rather than evasion/avoidance.
[url= http://rt.com/news/greece-officials-swiss-accounts-journalist-warrant-407/ ]Tax immunity and evasion[/url]
"The fact is that for the last 30-40 years, the rich in Greece has enjoyed a kind of tax immunity. They’re not really tax evaders, they’re immune from tax because of the cozy relationship that they have with politicians who legislate in a way that makes that tax immunity,”
Money for money, the devil for his own 'It was the poor what done it!'
Amount of tax paid by shipping, construction and energy industries: 0
Did you read that Vanity fair article?
Amount of tax paid by the vast majority; 0
ALL of the doctors in Greece stated income of less than 12,000 euros to avoid tax. Everyone who possibly could was self employed and paid zero tax.
The public sector was hugely bloated; Railway workers earned 65,000 euros.
"Arduous" professions which qualified for early pensions (50 yrs) included hair dressers and radio announcers.
You've got to feel for the average Greek, but the majority are far from blameless.
The Same bloke did address that point deviant, it's new broom time in Greece from the sounds of it, he talked about rooting out corruption at all levels IIRC, and TBH they do need to start actually paying their taxes, same as the Italians, they've made a national sport out of evading them.
Syriza are a pretty "Young" party formed in 2004 (from a Coalition of 13 smaller, broadly aligned, Leftwing parties, yes some are Marxist, etc)...
I think it's an [s]EU[/s] worldwide issue, most countries (UK included) have a bit of a problem with electing anyone under ~48 into senior any political positions, but why? the current lot of 50-60 somethings have not exactly been flawless...
Greece's new President is [i]only[/i] 40 (does that make him the youngest head of state in Europe?).
I think it will be good to see European politics start to include representatives from the generation really affected by their policies over the last 25 years, those who have grown up within the EU, not simply those who've presided over it's creation and assumed they should just carry on governing...
Corruption and lack of innovation both become endemic in organisations where change doesn't take place often enough and those at the top get a bit comfortable with the status quo. Greek politics and public office shows this, and the EU are in danger of sliding the same way, We need younger politicians Europe wide IMO... Discuss
This programme isn't available anymore, it was quite entertaining though. The lady hairdresser retired at 50 on 90% of her pension as that business is classified as dangerous (all those chemicals don't you know), she was bored so went back to work at the same salon cash in hand.
[url= http://www.channel4.com/programmes/go-greek-for-a-week/episode-guide ]Channel 4: Go Greek for a week[/url]
It's about expecting every individual in a country to accept responsibility for something they may have had nothing to do with. Including a bunch that weren't born. I look forward to you accepting responsibility for your neighbour's credit card bill and the gambling debts of the dude that lived in your house before you.
@Northwind, but the fundamental difference is that the national debt is acquired in the name of the nation including the as yet unborn, hence the cartoon I posted earlier.
but the shipping magnates, football club owners etc etc are still immune from tax while the nicely pensioned hairdresser has had all that slashed by order of brussles
@Northwind, but the fundamental difference is that the national debt is acquired in the name of the nation including the as yet unborn
It's not really a difference at all. You can't hold people responsible for something a government does. Next time you meet an old Russian man are you going to complain about Stalin? Of course not.
This is the real difference between right and left...
while the nicely pensioned hairdresser has had all that slashed by order of brussles
Nothing has been slashed though. They are just ensuring people pay their way, and the pansions were wildly out of synch with the reast of europe. Lending a country billions whilst allowing them to continue as before is crazy!
WRT football clubs etc; I'd bet Chelsea etc have tax "specialists" on their case too! It's inexcusable, I agree.
The lady hairdresser retired at 50 on 90% of her pension as that business is classified as dangerous
You never answered my earlier question about whether you expect ordinary people to reject these generous salaries and pensions out of sense of social responsibility. Of course it's ridiculous that a hair dresser can retire at 50 on 90% of her final salary, but do you blame the poor hair dresser for buying the snake oil or the con-artist selling it? It's fraud, plain and simple, willingly executed by people in powerful positions so that they could enrich themselves and their friends. And as for the people 'voting them in', it's not like they had a viable alternative is it? Until now Greece was a two party system where both parties were in on the fraud. Now there is an alternative, and the people have chosen it so presumably you'll be celebrating?
as I understood it greek pensions had been cut by 50%, sounds like a slash to me, regardless of how out of kilter it may have been in the first place
I know that the Greeks were getting assistance in [s]cooking the books[/s] completing their accounts from that [s]bunch of crooks[/s] bastion of probity and integrity - Goldman Sachs* - but surely to god the powers that be in Brussels must have had some inkling of what was going on? Yet they still kept the money taps turned on?
Or if they didn't know what was going on, it does beg the question, why the hell not?
* I reckon we can probably guess if anyone there has been held to account?
I imagine the accountants at goldman sachs swooped in and picked up a few islands on the cheap when it all wqent titsup
as I understood it greek pensions had been cut by 50%, sounds like a slash to me, regardless of how out of kilter it may have been in the first place
Fair enough, but I still won't feel sorry for those who've not paid tax, and can retire at 50 on what is still a good government pension.
This is an old piece from Michael Lewis - 2010 - but it's worth a read. The Greek railway is so expensive and inefficient it would be cheaper (in theory) to just pay for everyone to get a taxi. I don't know how many government workers are now at food banks but they have certainly benefitted
These old chestnuts just get trotted out, exaggerated, and trotted out again. There's really no point in trying to discuss something if these cliches are what inform your opinion.
I hope you're a troll.
Not all, just peaking my mind. @deviant posted what would have been my reply. I appreciate the human cost of repaying the debt is significant.
The old Greek government were playing fast and loose with borrowed money but the Greek people kept voting them in to do it!....their welfare state was frankly ridiculous, early retirement was the norm, tax evasion was rife...but yeah, the electorate had nothing to do with it!
You never answered my earlier question about whether you expect ordinary people to reject these generous salaries and pensions out of sense of social responsibility.
I get asked so many questions on these threads it's hard to answer them all 😐
Well people have to take some responsibility for their decision to vote for a certain party. The fact is Greek politicians vied with each other to offer the most lucrative deals to the electorate. It's bike like the mortgage crises here, people lied on their applications (ie committed fraud) and then said it was 100% the banks fault for making the loan. Truth is both parties where equally responsible in the Greek case and with the mortgage frauds.
FWIW and tbc (again for those who misrepresent) - I am pro Europe and the four pillars that lie at its heart. I am generally anti fixed exchange rates and especially where they are applied to regions that do not satisfy the conditions for an optimum currency area. Hence, for me, the € is an unsustainable folly.
The Europe project started well, then abandoned the pillars that support it and the structures it introduced. Like any house of sand, the results are inevitable. The only uncertainty is the timeline.
Binners I totally agree that those in Brussels and elsewhere knew pretty much exactly what was going on.
Fair enough, but I still won't feel sorry for those who've not paid tax, and can retire at 50 on what is still a good government pension.
Looking forward to seeing your evidence for those claims. Do you know what public sector pensions are in Greece? What is the retirement age in Greece? Or are you just cutting and pasting from the Daily Mail?
Looking forward to seeing your evidence for those claims. Do you know what public sector pensions are in Greece? What is the retirement age in Greece? Or are you just cutting and pasting from the Daily Mail?
Well, you're really doing so very well to present an anti argument 🙄
And, if you'd bother to read the Vanity Fair article which has been linked and mentioned a few times, you'd know how stupid that "daily mail" comment really is.
Before JY gets in and points it out, I couldn't agree with you more THM. I'm also pro-Europe, thought not in its present anti-democratic guise. Its completely lost its way, and is now being held hostage by ideologies hell bent on a federal superstate (formed to represent the interests of them and their mates), no matter what the cost to its citizens.
But the single currency was a ridiculous idea from the outset, that was never ever going to work. It still isn't going to work, and the only question now is how much much damage it will do to a sustainable European economy before it is inevitably abandoned. Its when, not if. Its been a disaster, and will only get worse. But those behind it refuse to accept all the evidence of their continued folly.
Gordon Brown's legacy is pretty grim, but one thing he needs some credit for is being determined to keep us out of the car crash that is the Euro. Because if we'd been in it, we'd be well and truly screwed right now!
Forget the public sector, check out the annual reports of major Greek Banks and Corporates and see how many pension schemes are funded!!!
@Dr J, I used to work with/for Eleanor Amrosiadou she gave me her view on the Greek economy and how things actually worked. Like most wealthy Greeks she chose to live and work elsewhere as she couldn't stand it. A lot of my viewpont was founded on conversations with her back in the mid 90's. The Greeks used to boast about how they had the most entrepreneurial economy due to the high numbers of self employed but the reality is that being self employed is the best way to swerve taxes. The Channel 4 programme featured a doctor too. See my earlier post about my friend, he was asked to pay a bribe, he's a stubborn so and so and has he money so he paid the higher amount and made sure he got receipts. This was a government employee asking for the money btw. Post the crises the Greeks introduced taxes collected via utility bills as other forms of tax collection are too easily avoided. As others have posted combined this with irrational levels of government spending on welfare and pensions and you have the recipe for the disaster that is Greece today.
The figure of 53 years old as an average retirement age is being bandied about. So much so, that it is has become folk-fact. It originates from a lazy comment on the New York Times website. It was then repeated by Fox News and printed in other publications. Greek civil servants have the option to retire after 17.5 years of service, but this is on half benefits. The figure of 53 is a misinformed conflation of the number of people who choose to do this (in most cases to go on to different careers) and those who stay in public service until their full entitlement becomes available.
Looking at Eurostat’s data from 2005 the average age of exit from the labour force in Greece (indicated in the graph below as EL for Ellas) was 61.7; higher than Germany, France or Italy and higher than the EU27 average. Since then Greece have had to raise the minimum age of retirement twice under bail-out conditions and so this figure is likely to rise further.
from here
http://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/world-affairs/2012/05/exploding-myth-****less-lazy-greeks
It's bike like the mortgage crises here, people lied on their applications (ie committed fraud) and then said it was 100% the banks fault for making the loan.
Voting for 1 of 2 incumbent parties in an election is vastly different to fraudulently completing a mortgage application! So to be clear you're now accusing the Greek people of de-frauding themselves by not voting for a party that never existed at the time? Like I said, now there is an alternative, and they've voted for it, so you should be pleased with the result?
Its completely lost its way, and is now being held hostage by ideologies hell bent on a federal superstate (formed to represent the interests of them and their mates), no matter what the cost to its citizens.
I'm afraid it was ever so.
The EU idea was first conceived back in the 1920s by two senior officials of the League of Nations – Jean Monnet and Arthur Salter, a British civil servant – to be a United States of Europe, ruled by a government of unelected technocrats like themselves. Two things were anathema to them: nation states with the power of veto (which they had seen destroy the League of Nations) and any need to consult the wishes of the people in elections.
@dazh there are many parties in Greece, but I appreciate that pretty much all of them where intent on bribing the electorate. One justification I was given why so many people avoid tax there was that people felt the government was so corrupt and the state workers / pensioners had it so cushy that why should we fund that with our taxes ? I acknowledge your point but Syriza are IMO no different, they want to keep spending whilst at the same time writing off the debts from prior years of excess spending. They aren't any different IMO, its the same flavour. The last government is what was different, trying to be responsible.
I acknowledge your point but Syriza are IMO no different, they want to keep spending whilst at the same time writing off the debts from prior years of excess spending.
The last government is what was different, trying to be responsible.
How ridiculous. In all your previous statements you deride the corrupt govt for bribing the people, and castigate the population for voting for them, then come out in support of the very same people who caused the problems! Which is it?
MSP - Member
from herehttp://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/world-affairs/2012/05/exploding-myth-****less-lazy-greeks
Basically the author is saying that the Greek govt/politicians are corrupted, crooks or behaving like mafia so should be the sole blame for their situation. Well, he seems to have all answers to their current situation doesn't he? Explaining a way out by being emotional, presenting bar charts to justify etc rather typical of the Greek with talent for arguments.
The bottom line is that their situation is not the result of recent event (past 10 years) but rather the effect of generations of mismanagement that is embedded in their culture but there seem to be general (majority public I speculate) reluctant or complacent in accepting the fact that one day the shite might hit the fan once they joined the EU club. Now the reality set in and they have been found out. What can they do? No much really apart from going for the broke. i.e. more borrowing or get kick out either way they have nothing to loose.
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chewkw - Member
Explaining a way out by being emotional, presenting bar charts to justify etc rather typical of the Greek with talent for arguments.
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The EU idea was first conceived back in the 1920s by two senior officials of the League of Nations – Jean Monnet and Arthur Salter, a British civil servant – to be a United States of Europe, ruled by a government of unelected technocrats like themselves. Two things were anathema to them: nation states with the power of veto (which they had seen destroy the League of Nations) and any need to consult the wishes of the people in elections.
An article written by a loon who denies global warming, the risks of passive smoking and the dangers of asbestos
Forgive me for rejecting his analysis
as its a verbatim quote which is it not quoted and not sourced?
Lifer - Member😐
Also do they have to greet everyone with the word ?????? ?
I mean now that ????? has hit the fan who is ?????? then eh?
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@dazh, you've confused yourself. Thge last government (just defeated) was sorting the problem out by implementing the "austerity" measures, ie a budget the Greeks can afford but with massive EU assistance.
Perhaps Demis Roussos knew something about the likely Greek debt repayment schedule when he wrote this. RIP big fella.