[Closed] Greece - Sum it up in 5 sentences for a "foreigner"

They Greeks all went to a German bar and went on a 5 year bender with just a card behind the bar as collateral. Barman is now asking then to pay up. Turns out is was an expired library card they used as collateral. They now have one hell of a hang over and are asking the barman for a 5 year hair of the dog on a tab.

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😆

4 words?
Lied on mortgage application?

In more than 5 sentences:

http://www.theguardian.com/books/2012/sep/23/boomerang-michael-lewis-review
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Boomerang-Meltdown-Tour-Michael-Lewis/dp/0241955025

In Greece, infrastructure costs mean it would be cheaper to transport all Greek rail passengers by taxi, and hairdressing is classified as arduous for tax avoidance purposes.

footflaps - Member
They Greeks all went to a German bar and went on a 5 year bender with just a card behind the bar as collateral. Barman is now asking then to pay up. Turns out is was an expired library card they used as collateral. They now have one hell of a hang over and are asking the barman for a 5 year hair of the dog on a tab.

This, but the German bartender suspected that the card looked a bit iffy at the time. Didn't bother checking because their main priority was getting folk into the bar so that they could boast about how wonderful it was.

Very nice country
very nice people

1. Greece joined the eu and adopted the euro, by lying about the state of the economy.
2. In the 10 years that followed adoption of the Euro mismanagement of the economy continued, the average public sector wage doubled for example.
3. They have run a significant deficit for years yet have some very strange fiscal policies and procedures that are begging for reform such as; retirement ages / tax rates / tax collection practices and enforcement.
4. When international debt markets wobbled Greece was one of the first to suffer and they have been reliant on creditor deals and support from the Euro central Bank and IMF for a number of years (some debt has already been written off).
5. The Greek government was elected on a mandate of agreeing to secure more funding and spend their way out of recession as opposed to austerity however the creditors and only potential funders of such spending, the euro central Bank and the IMF are not willing to throw cash at the problem and have lost patience.

and now the barman wants Greece to pay back their debts by washing the glasses. He's paying 20 Euros a day for washing glasses. The interest on the debt is 30 Euros a day.

If the eight or so obscenely wealthy Greek shipping owners who hold 95% of Greece's wealth, outside Greece, would pay just 10% of the taxes they owe the government, all Greece's problems would be finished. Unfortunately though, when invited, the gentlemen declined to reveal their financial affairs to the government. In shipping your major financial assets are all floating around the world's oceans so you can get paid anywhere you like. S'easy.

- It was Greek businessman in South Africa who explained that to me.

and now the barman wants Greece to pay back their debts by washing the glasses. He's paying 20 Euros a day for washing glasses. The interest on the debt is 30 Euros a day.

Edit:

"He's paying 20 Euros a day for washing glasses, but they still haven't washed a single one yet and just keep asking for more money."

The Greeks have debts they are unable to pay.
They need to be able to grow their economy to meet their responsibilities, but austerity is making this impossible.
An austerity obsessed political movement(as long as it is austerity to be suffered by the poor and not the rich) won't allow for any other outcome.
Greece is being smashed between a rock and a hard place in the name of austerity dogma.
iirc the UK banking sector was the third or fourth biggest holder of Greek debt when that private debt was nationalised by the original bail out, so pretending the UK isn't up to its elbows shovelling shit on Greece would be laughable if the reality wasn't so stark.

Loving the analogies.

🙂

uwe-r - Member
1. Greece joined the eu and adopted the euro, by engaging Goldman Sachs to lie about the state of the economy and to package some complicated but nonetheless profitable for Goldman Sachs, credit swap instruments that were later to become known as 'toxic debt' sold on to others.
2. In the 10 years that followed adoption of the Euro mismanagement of the economy continued, the average public sector wage doubled for example.
3. They have run a significant deficit for years yet have some very strange fiscal policies and procedures that are begging for reform such as; retirement ages / tax rates / tax collection practices and enforcement.
4. When international debt markets wobbled Greece was one of the first to suffer and they have been reliant on creditor deals and support from the Euro central Bank and IMF for a number of years (some debt has already been written off).
5. The Greek government was elected on a mandate of agreeing to secure more funding and spend their way out of recession as opposed to austerity however the creditors and only potential funders of such spending, the euro central Bank and the IMF are not willing to throw cash at the problem and have lost patience.

Lots of bad people have profited from the state Greece finds itself in, not least German Arms & Motoring manufacturers.

footflaps - Member
"He's paying 20 Euros a day for washing glasses, but they still haven't washed a single one yet and just keep asking for more money."

You don't half have a hardon for trying to blame all the people of Greece for this!

I'm really just trying to balance out all the anti-German sentiment, but ultimately they have to take responsibility for the situation they find themselves in.

You don't half have a hardon for trying to blame all the people of Greece for this

Starting to look like the jamba 2.0 update. Pretty soon he will be gloating over pictures of dead Palestinian children.

[quote=footflaps ]I'm really just trying to balance out all the anti-German sentiment, but ultimately they have to take responsibility for the situation they find themselves in.

[s]You're trying to provide balance to those who suggest that both sides are at fault by suggesting it was all the fault of Greece?[/s]

edit: re-read what you wrote - yes, at some point Germany has to take responsibility for the situation they find themselves in 🙄

footflaps - Member
You don't half have a hardon for trying to blame all the people of Greece for this!
I'm really just trying to balance out all the anti-German sentiment, but ultimately they have to take responsibility for the situation they find themselves in.

Who said they were shysters?

I think they are fiscally incompetent and unwilling to reform, but at the end of the day that's their problem (as they are slowly finding out).

They also still seem deluded that they can stay in the Euro and maintain their [s]current[/s] recent standard of living.

If there's a will there's a way. Why does profit have to come before peoples well being?

Collective punishment is against the geneva convention.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/feb/27/greece-spain-helped-germany-recover

difference being there are now more people owing than lending, at this stage let greece off and then the next call will be coming from Italy, Spain and Portugal along with Africa and heaps more. Can the world economy come out of that one?

Can the world economy come out of that one?

Yes, it did after wwII, in fact it turned countries devastated by war and with unprecedented levels of debt into a substantial period of growth.

Post WWII Germany's debt repayments were capped at 3% of export earnings which very cleverly focused Germany on boosting exports and incentivised their lenders to buy German goods.

So you could write off all world debt?

Large amounts could be written off and has been many times before, lots can be repackaged so that it is not a burden that strangles the owing nations.

1. The € zone project was poorly designed and cannot work.

2. Several guinea pigs have been used as test cases

3. As one of (2) Greece has simply proved (1)

Err, that's it.

teamhurtmore - Member
1. The € zone project was poorly designed and cannot work.

2. Several guinea pigs have been used as test cases

3. As one of (2) Greece has simply proved (1)

Err, that's it.

So we let Greece slip of the edge entirely?

No. Please refer to my other posts. We do exactly the opposite.

It might have worked if Greeks were not such proud people and their hatred of Germany not so deep, thanks to WW11.

Here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axis_occupation_of_Greece

2nd world country overspends on non-productive public servants, by borrowing at artificially low rates. Credit crunch hits, no slack to bail out banks, no ability to print money resulting in chaos. Germany like some well meaning parent tries to help, but only makes it worse.

Oh and the Euro is sh*t.

Debt is for the public. Profit is for the private.

[img] ?oh=6cab1593dd142a55c135be1dabc92951&oe=5630D13E[/img]

teamhurtmore - Member
No. Please refer to my other posts. We do exactly the opposite.

Err, that's it.

Well if you ignore the impact of austerity, the corruption of past Greek governments and major banking institutions, not to mention the complete incompetence by the credit rating agencies, then yeah that's it.

footflaps - Member

"He's paying 20 Euros a day for washing glasses, but they still haven't washed a single one yet and just keep asking for more money."

It's a perfect analogy this, bit you seem not to understand why- there's absolutely no point in washing a single glass, if it doesn't resolve the actual debt. Which I think everyone knows is the case with Greece. It doesn't reflect badly on them that they're not taking a terrible deal.

What the greeks have rejected- rightly- is a bailout that makes things worse for them without fixing the problem. Perhaps they could accept an offer that makes it worse for them, if it actually dealt with the debt. But nobody seems to want to put that on the table.

This doesn't imply that they'd reject a half-decent deal. We may never know, first they'd have to get one.

Err, that's it.
Well if you ignore the impact of austerity, the corruption of past Greek governments and major banking institutions, not to mention the complete incompetence by the credit rating agencies, then yeah that's it.

Causes or symptoms? I was referring to the OP's actual question.

But FWIW I don't ignore and regular post a link to this work on the topic

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Greeces-Odious-Debt-Political-Investment/dp/0857287710/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1436172154&sr=8-1&keywords=Greece%27s+odious+debt

Greece's 'Odious' Debt: The Looting of the Hellenic Republic by the Euro, the Political Elite and the Investment Community (Anthem Finance) Paperback – 5 May 2011

The title says it all.

Just imagine being an Estonian or Slovakian politician, trying to explain to your electorate why they will have to fund the cost of a Greek debt writeoff 😯

They may well not write it off and just extend the terms and drop the rate to 0%. Thus kicking the can down the road and buying Greece some breathing space so they can continue to not reform their economy.

Meanwhile in Puerto Rico and China......

ninfan - Member

Just imagine being an Estonian or Slovakian politician, trying to explain to your electorate why they will have to fund the cost of a Greek debt writeoff

And that is how you sum up the situation- it doesn't matter what Greece needs, they don't get offered it because the politicians involved don't want to try to explain why they did the right thing- the only viable thing- to their voters.

And that is how you sum up the situation- it doesn't matter what Greece needs, they don't get offered it because the politicians involved don't want to try to explain why they did the right thing- the only viable thing- to their voters.

You forgot to add "and it's all Germany's fault" 😉

Why not just imagine it in, like you do all the other times?

Tell you something though, the responsibility for the failure to put a credible offer on the table [i]can[/i] fairly be levelled at the Germans, they're not the only people against it but they're the ones that could turn it around. With great power, and all that.

ninfan - Member
Just imagine being an Estonian or Slovakian politician, trying to explain to your electorate why they will have to fund the cost of a Greek debt writeoff

tbh if people are for the concept of an ever closer union and ultimately a united states of Europe, they are going to have to accept that.

It's pretty much the biggest eye opener for me about the whole EU project tbh.

[quote=Northwind ]What the greeks have rejected- rightly- is a bailout that makes things worse for them without fixing the problem.

Exactly. The issue isn't that they won't tighten their belts. It's that tightening their belts will just postpone the day of reckoning. A credible deal would be that they tighten their belts in exchange for a debt write off or some similar deal which offers them a way out of the mess. Nobody expects Greece to have their debt written off and for them to then continue living beyond their means - that is a strawman used by the Germany apologists like footflaps.

Oh, and here we go again:

[quote=footflaps ]You forgot to add "and it's all Germany's fault"

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[quote=ninfan ]Just imagine being an [s]Estonian[/s] EZ or [s]Slovakian[/s] EZ politician, trying to explain to your electorate why they will have to fund the cost of a [s]Greek[/s] EZ debt writeoff

Just imagine being an Estonian or Slovakian politician, trying to explain to your electorate why they will have to fund the cost of a Greek debt writeoff

All these countries only joined the EU to stop Vlad the topless shark wrestler invading them. The got told that they had to take the Euro as part of that. I doubt very much they thought that would lead to them shelling out for Greek pensioners to have a higher anual income than the average wage in their own countries. It wouldn't surprise me if they were presently looking at exactly what it is they're getting out of this deal.

Or opposition politicians are askng that very question come election time

I doubt very much they thought that would lead to them shelling out for Greek pensioners to have a higher anual income than the average wage in their own countries.

You forgot to mention their low early retirement age and tens of thousands of civil servants who get paid a wage but don't actually work for the civil service.

http://www.theguardian.com/business/2010/may/07/greek-debt-crisis-jobs

They've had a really good run all paid for by someone else.

From that article:

"It's why Greeks are so angry," says Panos Garganos a prominent leftist academic. "Public debt has been accrued on the government bailing out the banks, military expenditure and supporting shipowners and hotels. That has made people really angry and as living standards drop that anger will only get bigger."

So instead of harnessing that anger and working with Syriza on a viable plan for the future, the troika have just made the situation a whole lot worse.

Just imagine being an Estonian or Slovakian politician, trying to explain to your electorate why they will have to fund the cost of a Greek debt writeoff

Probably easier than explaining why they just made Greece default on the whole lot.

Probably easier than explaining why they just made Greece default on the whole lot.

Seems to make more sense to pull the plug, eject them from the Euro and spend the next installment of cash they are chasing on food and medicine for Greece and distribute that by independent charities to minimise Govt skimming off the top.

Yes it will be shit, but at least it will signal the end of the farce of a country living way way beyond its means and might kickstart some social responsibility of the Greeks for the future of their country. Mind you, you wouldn't be able to blame ze Germans if it doesn't work out.

And so despite everything and the misleading comments by all involved, the negotiations start again

Another mighty hoof for the can.

Depressing

[url= http://www.truth-out.org/news/item/26112-an-economic-hit-man-speaks-out-john-perkins-on-how-greece-has-fallen-victim-to-economic-hit-men ]Another perspective on it from the Economic Hitman[/url]

And so despite everything and the misleading comments by all involved, the negotiations start again

You were expecting some form of conclusion to this saga?

Oh no, it's got miles left in it yet.

Yes it will be shit, but at least it will signal the end of the farce of a country living way way beyond its means and might kickstart some social responsibility of the Greeks for the future of their country. Mind you, you wouldn't be able to blame ze Germans if it doesn't work out.

This is STW, we can always blame the Germans.

Tell you something though, the responsibility for the failure to put a credible offer on the table can fairly be levelled at the Germans, they're not the only people against it but they're the ones that could turn it around. With great power, and all that.

That looks unlikely given the domestic German situation...

http://www.theguardian.com/business/2015/jul/06/merkel-germany-greek-voters-austerity-german-reaction-referendum-eurozone-greece

Those bank bail out figures are breathtaking. Why don't the creditors just own Greece, split it up and run it profitably?

Interesting article in the FT

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/3/bbf26c42-23bb-11e5-bd83-71cb60e8f08c.html#axzz3f9D9ZwzQ

and here:

http://www.voxeu.org/article/grexit-staggering-cost-central-bank-dependence

"The Greek authorities were coerced into accepting loans to keep servicing their creditors, including financial institutions elsewhere in Europe and in the US. The huge public debt pile-up that followed is a Greek contribution to global financial stability."

deepreddave - Member

Those bank bail out figures are breathtaking. Why don't the creditors just own Greece, split it up and run it profitably?

Give them time.

No too many Christmas cards for the ECB from Athens this year after tonight,

I had a thought yesterday. Greece might exit the Euro, and will need a new currency. Greece has no visible means of support. It needs something equally baseless to use as money.

My suggestion: Greece should adopt the Bitcoin as its currency 😀

What could possibly go wrong with that ?

But if they went to bitcoin how would they blame the Germans?

As usual the Mash nails it.

[b]GREECE is to establish a system that collects money from its citizens.[/b]

It is the first time the country has attempted to gather money from people and the Greek government has asked for advice on how it is done.

Finance minister Yanis Varoufakis said: “So what’s a normal rate of tax? We’re thinking somewhere between two percent and 98 percent. If anyone has any suggestions that would be grand.

“Do we get people to leave the money outside the parliament, or do we just place a bucket at the end of each street? And does the money have to be real or can people just phone in with a pledge, like a charity telethon? Do we accept goats?

“And if someone refuses to pay the tax, should that be a crime, or is it all just a matter of opinion? It’s fascinating stuff, it really is.”

Greece has offered to establish taxation so it can borrow more money from countries that have had taxes for a while.

German finance minister Wolfgang Schauble told Varoufakis that he would ‘show him how to start a ****ing tax system’ before he was dragged away by his civil servants.

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/international/greece-to-set-up-some-sort-of-tax-system-2015022495671

If you think massive generalisations are the solution to the problem, then, aye, mibbe.