[Closed] Greatest F1 driver ever?

I think it depends a little on how old you are. For me, as per my first post, it's Senna all the way. I grew up watching Senna, Prost, Mansell in their prime. Being a bit French I also liked Prost, but Senna was who I wanted to be when I was a kid. My father would have answered equally unequivocally that Clark was the greatest ever, for the same reasons as have been posted here.

The OP says greatest F1 driver which is slightly amibiguous but anyway ...

When I was a kid I read a book about Jim Clark ("Jim Clark at the wheel") and there were bits about how he went from driving a tractor on the family farm to driving for the Border Reivers up to driving for Colin Chapman at Lotus. Then there was Indianapolis (the first to break the Offy-powered US hegemony and open up the race to European style cars and drivers). He tested the Lotus Cortina and at one point I think drove a Ford Galaxy.

Here's a quick summary from Wikipedia:

"In 1963 and 1965, Jim Clark equaled Alberto Ascari's record for Highest percentage of possible championship points in a season (100%). Leading 71.47% of the laps in 1963, Jim Clark holds the record for highest percentage of laps in the lead in a season. He also holds the record for most Grand Slams, taking pole, fastest lap, race win and leading every lap of the race in 8 races (1962 British Grand Prix, 1963 Dutch Grand Prix, 1963 French Grand Prix, 1963 Mexican Grand Prix, 1964 British Grand Prix, 1965 South African Grand Prix, 1965 French Grand Prix, 1965 German Grand Prix)."

Slight aside while looking at those stats, but isn't it funny how the era of Senna, Prost, Piquet and Mansell is considered a classic era, but Hamilton, Vettel, Alonso, Button and Räikkönen isn't?

tjagain - Member
Unless we see Hamilton in a car that isn't the best by a long way then we simply do not know if he is one of the greats. Anyone of a dozen drivers would have won the WC in his car

Like for example the mp4/24 he won two races in.

Also being in the right team is part of the skill of being a driver, and one (the only?) area Alonso falls down in.

Like for example the mp4/24 he won two races in.

Just doesn't compare to Schumacher in a Jordon, a Benneton or a dog-like Ferrari. Senna in a Lotus or Peugeot powered McLaren. imo of course.

Schumacher is still the only driver to have won on a 4-stop strategy too of course. iirc thats the one that blew Ross Brawn's mind

dragon - Member
Slight aside while looking at those stats, but isn't it funny how the era of Senna, Prost, Piquet and Mansell is considered a classic era, but Hamilton, Vettel, Alonso, Button and Räikkönen isn't?

It's all about perspective.

legend - Member
Like for example the mp4/24 he won two races in.
Just doesn't compare to Schumacher in a Jordon, a Benneton or a dog-like Ferrari. Senna in a Lotus or Peugeot powered McLaren. imo of course.

Schumacher is still the only driver to have won on a 4-stop strategy too of course. iirc thats the one that blew Ross Brawn's mind

So what's he supposed to do, leave McLaren or Mercedes and go and do a season in a Sauber then? 😆

He won the champs in F3, then won the champs in GP2 then matched Alonso in his debut season in F1 FFS and we're apparently quibbling over whether the 24 was crap enough. Have a look at what Jordan said about it.

Hamilton is top class no doubt about it.

He matched Alonso in his debut season FFS

Quite!

I wouldn't expect him to do so no. However he has almost always been in a car that is far better than anything else which makes it very hard to judge how good he is.

Hunt, definitely the greatest ever. He Knew how to make the most of being an F1 driver. 😉

dragon - Member Slight aside while looking at those stats, but isn't it funny how the era of Senna, Prost, Piquet and Mansell is considered a classic era, but Hamilton, Vettel, Alonso, Button and Räikkönen isn't?

Maybe we need to look back after a little time has passed before we start to consider an era as being a claasic..

However he has almost always been in a car that is far better than anything else which makes it very hard to judge how good he is.

The McLaren was not the dominant car at any point while Hamilton was there, at best it was competitive and at worst, for example in 2013, it was lagging miles behind a truly dominant Red Bull and came 5th in the constructors champs (a season in which he was still able to take a win, natch)

He tested the Lotus Cortina and at one point I think drove a Ford Galaxy.

[quote=igm ]Now while I question Vettel‘s bid to be the greatest driver of all time, you’ve just seen him come from the back (ish) to 4th place twice, the second time going through the field rather better than Hamilton (possibly because Hamilton didn’t need to of course).

Possibly because he's got a car better at doing that. I'm not sure entirely how true it is, but there does seem to be a prevailing theory that the Merc is far worse when following other cars - particularly on high downforce circuits like this. Though getting through a field of slower cars like that is a somewhat different matter to going head to head with Verstappen or Hamilton (or Alonso when he was in a decent car).

for example in 2013, it was lagging miles behind

In 2013 it was in a Mercedes that finished second in the constructors....

In 2013 it was in a Mercedes that finished second in the constructors....

Fair point!!

Unless we see Hamilton in a car that isn't the best by a long way then we simply do not know if he is one of the greats. Anyone of a dozen drivers would have won the WC in his car

We have - the 2009 and 2011 McLaren's weren't very good at all, the 2010 was patchy and the 2013 Merc third best.

He still got poles and wins in them. I refer you to my earlier stat - he's the only driver in F1 history to win a race and score a pole in at least one race every season he has competed in.

I think that alone qualifies him for the top 5.

but he's probably one of very few who have only ever driven for top-flight teams

legend - Member
but he's probably one of very few who have only ever driven for top-flight teams

Yeah it's weird that, almost like they think he's one of the sport's greatest drivers. 😉

With the advances in safety in cars, materials and tracks it's hard to compare the modern drivers to those that went before them who didn't have these benefits.
Put a modern driver into a car of the earlier age on a track without the same safety features regardless of their skill, hundreds of hours memorising each turn and bump in the track but take away that safety factor and think you would see a difference to the advantage of Senna, Prost and Hunt's who had the bigger balls.

but he's probably one of very few who have only ever driven for top-flight teams

But the great teams don't always win a race in a season - Vettel / Ferrari 2014 anyone. Alonso / McLaren Honda?

Some of those McLaren's he drove were dogs of cars and yet he still put them on pole and still won races.

Merc 2013 wasn't a great team at that point either. That move was a huge risk and people thought he was mad for making it.

[quote=dannybgoode ]But the great teams don't always win a race in a season - Vettel / Ferrari 2014 anyone. Alonso / McLaren Honda?

Is a very valid point - a bit unfair on Alonso with McLaren Honda though, I don't think any of the drivers mentioned could have won [s]in that car[/s] with that engine, it wasn't just mediocre.

It's not a case of being fair - I agree noone could have won in that thing but equally the whole 'Lewis has only ever driven the best car' argument simply doesn't stand either.

Those McLaren's I mentioned and the 2013 Merc was the 3rd fastest car and by a margin at times - possibly the 4th fastest at times, particularly against day the 2009 McLaren v the 2009 works Renault (indeed in winter testing with that daft octo-exhaust they were seconds of the pace in winter testing).

Look at the number of podiums as well, not just the wins, in what noone would describe as competitive machinery.

Don't forget this current Merc is not as good a Lewis makes it look - Bottas is a great driver yet he's nowhere near Lewis in the second half of the season so to say ' anyone could win' in that car is demonstrably not the case.

Senna and Schumacher (and to an extent Alonso) are the only other drivers I can think of who can drag a lap out of a poor car.

Button for example was almost untouchable if absolutely everything was right, Vettel the same to a lesser extent - but neither of them can drag a lap out of a dog.

Oh and that Malaysia pole lap this season. 5th fastest car/driver and puts on on pole. That was one of the most incredible single laps you'll see...

Slight aside while looking at those stats, but isn't it funny how the era of Senna, Prost, Piquet and Mansell is considered a classic era, but Hamilton, Vettel, Alonso, Button and Räikkönen isn't?

Compared to the endless processions we have had in F1 in recent years that [i]was[/i] a classic era. There was some actual overtaking going on in the races.

Greatest champion ever - Schumacher
Greatest driver ever - can't split Clark/Senna in different eras.

Compared to the endless processions we have had in F1 in recent years that was a classic era. There was some actual overtaking going on in the races.

Having watched races from that era recently there was surprising little overtaking and the attrition was so high in races only half the field finished.

Mansell in '92 for example would lap most of the field, the McLaren's of 88 & 89 were essentially like Merc of 2015/16 and racing themselves.

Proper wheel to wheel action between the leading drivers had always been surprisingly rare in F1.

I think we look back with rose tinted glasses sometimes.

Its an odd thing - people seem to be able to separate the man from the driver when it comes to both Senna and Schumacher but seem to struggle to give Hamilton the same grace.

I'm absolutely not a Hamilton fanboi but his achievements in an F1 car speak for themselves - he is undoubtedly one of the greats. His pole record alone guarantees that and then we have the 4 world titles.

Full disclosure - I actually think the best current driver is Alonso - he might be a sliver behind both Hamilton and Vettel in terms of outright pace but his mental discipline makes him the more complete driver.

Compared to the endless processions we have had in F1 in recent years that was a classic era. There was some actual overtaking going on in the races.

That mental discipline that held together so well in 2007 is that? 😀

Yeah it's weird that, almost like they think he's one of the sport's greatest drivers.

Quite! 😉

Interesting quote from Alonso when asked whether he regarded Hamilton as one of the five greatest drivers in history......

"Yes," the Spaniard replied. "In F1, every single season he has been very competitive, apart from one or two with Jenson (Button) when he had some issues. He was able to win with a dominant car, with a good car like 2010 or 2012, or with bad cars like 2009 and 2011.

"Not all the champions can say that."

It was different back in the day.

More Nurburgring

Senna, Scheuy, Clark, Hamilton, Alonso, Fangio, Prost

I’m too young to have seen Fangio and Clark race, but i’ll Trust the pundits on how good they were.

Couldn’t name the greatest, or even what order they should be in.

Can only dream about Senna, Clark and Hamilton in equal cars on a Qually lap. For my money one of those would be the fastest drivers in f1 history.

Schuey or Alonso greatest racing drivers. Maybe 😉

To be fair Vettel won a race with Toro Rosso in 2008, which is something they haven't even been close to doing since! 🙂

What on Earth is that '67 car? Very weird looking suspension setup for an F1 car of that period.

Gonna give a shout out to Giles Villeneuve too. Okay, obviously not the greatest but a ridiculously fast and talented driver. Didn't he once take pole in the wet by 6 seconds?

It's an interesting question because, whilst it's largely a numbers game, I'd argue that Schumi shouldn't be up there - I respect his achievements but so much of what he or his team did was right on or over the bounds of legal, it casts a shadow for me. So Fangio, Clark, Stewart, Prost, Senna or Hamilton for me - hard to pick a winner as the game's changed so much, it's like asking what's the greatest, ears or teeth.

In the '67 video , neither car is strictly Formula 1.

The camera car is Formula Vee, with VW Beetle front suspension.

interesting Quote from Alonso above. He should know so I'll take that

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-south-scotland-43571837

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-south-scotland-43557567

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/motorsport-formula-1/jim-clark-how-autocar-remembered-f1-legend

https://www.thenational.ae/sport/other-sport/even-legends-have-heroes-1.509813

Only one mention for Nouvalari? Murray Walker picked him, not shabby on two wheels either (technically a GP driver not an F1 driver of course...)
Bernie picked Prost, four championship and as many seconds in the era of Senna, Piquet, Lauda and Mansell, not bad at all.

For me, Clark, Lauda, Surtees, Senna and Brabham, probably in that order. All this talk of doing it in the best car and no-one has mentioned Sir Jack winning in one of his own?

Graham Hill, because it should have been imposible for someone as poor as him with so few connections and with so little going for him to become world champion. He had a reputation for mechanical sympathy and only doing what was necessary to win but when the only way to win was going faster than everyone else in a car that certainly wasn't the easiest to drive with a fire extinguisher floating around in the footwell on a rain soaked Nurburgring he won. His son was pretty good too.

Anyone know how Shui's doing?

Eddie Irvine.. if it hadnt been for that pesky Micheal

According to this statistical model (done in 2014), the 10 best were: Jim Clark, Jackie Stewart, Ferndando Alonso, Michael Schumacher, Juan Fangio, James Hunt, Nico Rosberg, Sebestian Vettel, Alberto Ascari, and Niki Lauda were the ten best after accounting for the contribution of the car. The analysis uses comparisons with teammates as the main factor. Rosberg is there because he beat Schumacher and the model didn't allow for Schumacher having declined massively in his comeback. Hamilton is not there because it was done before his recent dominance and he barely managed to beat Button and Rosberg, both of whom were much better than many people give them credit for. Still, very interesting that Senna and Prost didn't make top ten. Senna dominated weak teammates, but struggled to beat Prost.

https://f1metrics.wordpress.com/2014/07/18/who-was-the-greatest-f1-driver/

Another methodology puts Senna and Prost in the top 10, but still with Clark number 1.

https://f1metrics.wordpress.com/2016/10/06/experts-versus-models-how-do-we-rank-drivers/

They were all greats and Hamilton is definitely a racer rather than a strategist.  There is more to come for him.

This is thread has just reminded me there was some truly great racing in the past and although uninspired to watch the current racing I might give it another shot.