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Listening to Jackie Stewart dismissing Hamilton as though he was irrelevant, he claims it's Fangio
I don't know enough about motor racing to have a real valid opinion. In my lifetime, I'd say Schuey - albeit I didn't like him as a driver. I vaguely remember watching the Senna/Prost era.
Whatever your thoughts on Hamilton, I know he's not the greatest, but he is breaking records and he should/will go down in history books - I think he is a greater driver than Vettel.
Next one to make a real impact will be Verstappen I think, but these days it's about the car more than ever I suppose
BOAT
Shui
Senna
[quote=TheArtistFormerlyKnownAsSTR ]Whatever your thoughts on Hamilton, I know he's not the greatest
It's an impossible question to answer given the different eras and the lack of any proper way of comparing Fangio with Schumacher or Senna with Hamilton, but I wouldn't rule Hamilton out so conclusively. I'm not a Hamilton fanboi either, but it's hard not to admire him.
Got to go with who’s won it the most, Schumacher. Although a lot depends on who you know in the industry (to give you the best car), who your team mate was (not competetive!) etc.
I always liked Senna, I think in a like for like car he may well have beaten Schumacher. Just an opinion though - same as with Ali the greatest boxer of all time.
Fangio, or in the modern era, Schumacher.
Hamilton would't make my top 10.
actually, I find it quite easy not to admire him. I'm not a Hamilton fanboi either, but it's hard not to admire him.
I know he's not the greatest
He's certainly [i]one[/i] of the greatest. As are all of them really, different eras, different cars, different circuits mean you can't really say Senna over Schumacher or Fangio, or whomever.
Fangio jump around teams to stay in the best car didn’t he? Lewis’s champs have always been in the best car too? Senna would ring the neck of anything, and Schmacher jumped to an absolute dog at Ferrari to help rebuild them - got to be one of those 2 for me
This will always be personal opinion.
Senna for me - if he'd still been around Schumacher wouldn't have won so many championships.
Shui wasn’t be best, he was the hardest working up to that point, but Ferrari and the FIA conspired the keep him winning for year after year becaus they thought a single hero everyone could cheer for helped sales.
Senna was pure talent, but a total bully of a driver and wouldn’t have be so successful in the modern age.
Hamilton is pure talent too, harder working than Senna and has succeeded in an era when you couldn’t just drive people out of your way, If he’s got a fault it’s frustration when things go wrong.
For me the best (of the era I remember) it’s Alonso, he’s got the best mix of raw talent, mental strength and Work ethic, I’m amazed how he manages to stay so positive after crap car after crap car (his own fault in part), I’ve got a feeling he’s going to kill it in 2018.
I always liked Senna, I think in a like for like car he may well have beaten Schumacher. Just an opinion though - same as with Ali the greatest boxer of all time.
The thing that was always said about Schumacher was how fantastically well he worked with the team and his engineers in improving the car, he was miles ahead of everyone in doing that. So given the same starting point and resources, Schumacher would deliver a better car for the race and improve it more throughout the season.
There may have been drivers who had the edge for driving skill, but not his complete package for everything that made him a winning driver.
Fangio for results.
Senna, Hawthorn and Hunt for the stories.
Schumacher a dishonourable cheat, which devalues his achievements in my opinion.
Senna for me
Top 5 maybe
Car technology and race safety have changed so much since F1 began in ~1948, it's impossible to say.
In theory, I should have been able to compare drivers from ~1980, but as a youngster I was largely oblivious to F1 besides Mansell's tyre failure at Australia while leading the race and consequently cost him the title. It was only when Schumacher began his domination that I began watching most races.
I'd love for F1 to be more about the drivers and less about the team technology race. The current rules drive me insane, the cars are far too wide and so aero based that there is barely any proper overtaking.
But here I am about to watch Mexico live!
Schumacher will always be tainted for me by his attitude towards team-mates. A great driver doesn't care who is in the other car.
Schumacher every time for me, mainly based on the way he would make other F1 drivers look like amateurs when it rained. That alone was proof enough for me that he was on another level in terms of skill.
What he managed to do with that dog of Ferrari also speaks volumes to his tenacity, professionalism and ability.
No one for Vettel then!? 😉
senna of those I have seen
Do people forget how senna would punt people off the track in order to win? Short memories you all must have, he was arrogant and petulant.
Alain Prost was pretty amazing, he could drive anything but just happened to be driving at a time when there were so many other good drivers
I'm not sure there is a greatest but Senna is certainly my all time favourite and would be my pick.
Based purely on speculation if Imola '94 hadn't happened and he'd won another 2, 3 or even 4 titles and would have finished on 6 or 7. That would trump Schmacher's 7 as the Ferrari was almost a F1++ car in some seasons and he never had a team mate to challenge him for results in the way Prost did for Senna.
Senna would beat Schmacher in an identical car, he was simply a faster driver. Schmacher also had 0% flair which when you're talking about the greatest in a sports dicipline should come into the equation, e.g Ali for boxing etc.
Do people forget how senna would punt people off the track in order to win?
As did Schumacher and Prost.
ed - the OP just said greatest driver. Senna was an arrogant twerp no doubt - but fantastic driver
No one mentioned Alonso yet either...
As did Schumacher and Prost.
As has Vettel.
It's part of F1 racing
Senna for me ..loved the documentary film ..not a huge fan of F1 tbh but loads of respect for Hamilton
For me it would be Jim Clark. He could out drive anybody in any vehicle. He didn’t need to bully anybody he was just on another level. Of the recent bunch it’s hard not to acknowledge Lewis’s ability. The number of Poles etc.
Best all-round driver?
Close but would have to be a +1 for Alonso from me.
Jim Clark
Senna or Schumacher
Both taken far too early*
(and yes I know Schumacher had stopped racing and isn't physically dead yet)
Fangio, or in the modern era, Schumacher.Hamilton would't make my top 10.
Who are the other eight? Not a Hamilton fan, tbh, but quite curious about that one.
actually, I find it quite easy not to admire him
Funny, I feel the same way about Schumacher. Did at the time too.
There’s two sort of great drivers. The ones who drive what you give them and wring its neck and the ones who work with the engineers to turn dogs into gems.
Hamilton is I think in the first mould and is good in that arena.
Vettel is in the second and ain’t shabby there.
But Senna in mould one and Schumacher in mould two were better.
Fangio? Hmmm. Before my time, but allegedly pretty decent.
How about gentleman Jim Clark?
Edit - I see I’m not the first to mention Mr Clark
I wish Jackie Stewart would STFU. The guy is a berk
I wish Jackie Stewart would STFU. The guy is a berk
+1
The only time you hear from him is when he is having moan about Hamilton and brown nosing vettel. He can't stand Lewis taking his records so goes off on one.
Schumi 4 sure , that 310b was a turkey & still he won races. Monaco 97!
As you can't really compare eras directly I would put the following in equal terms:
Fangio - just brilliant at getting the best out of the machinery and getting in the right car.
Clark - genius in anything he drove.
Senna - pure passion with amazing skill.
Schumacher - took the professionalism a driver had to maintain to another level.
Alonso - just sublime in his race craft.
Hamilton - goes about racing his way and still delivers.
It's all subjective anyway so feel free to disagree 😀
Schmacher was the Steve Davis of F1 lol
I'm picking Senna simply because, when he was on it, he was untouchable
Gonna give a shout out to Giles Villeneuve too. Okay, obviously not the greatest but a ridiculously fast and talented driver. Didn't he once take pole in the wet by 6 seconds?
Hamilton is I think in the first mould and is good in that arena.
I think part of my problem with Hamilton is that we don’t really know how he’d wring the neck of a crap car, has F1 career hasn’t put him in a position of having to make do with a mid-pack (at best) outfit
When they opened the GP track at the Nurburgring there was a race with lots of ex F1 champions all in Mercedes 190 Cosworths. Senna was in his first season of F1 and somehow got included and he won comfortably, Prost was on poll. Some of the others were far older and maybe out of practice but they chose to enter and would have wanted to do well.
I don't know of any other race where champions of different era's all raced in identical cars.
John Surtees
No one even comes close imo.
[quote=Merak ]John Surtees
No one even comes close imo.
Good call.
Special mention to Graham Hill for doing the triple I reckon.
In terms of drivers I've seen since I've been watching (late 80s) it's hard to decide between Senna, Hamilton, Alonso, Prost, and Schumacher. They're all exceptionally good. Probably Verstappen will be joining the ranks too from what I've seen.
For me it's Senna but Hamilton has to be right up there.
Most poles, second most race wins and the only driver ever to have a win (and a pole) in at least 1 race every season he has competed.
Sure he's had a car advantage sometimes but he's also won in some pretty poor machinery.
He can also drive in any conditions and in the wet is up there with Senna and Schui.
Post keeps getting chopped - giving up
As above
The Monacan
(Not the Monegasque)
Senna
Donnington 1993.
It rained.
A lot.
Watch that first lap.
If we are talking rain - Button - can't remember which race, but plumb last to win. That was one of the greatest drives I've ever seen
And well done Lewis - officially the most successful (greatest?) British F1 driver. I've always liked him from his first season, even through his petulance and praising God...
John Surtees
I was thinking that, 2 seconds before I read it.
If we are talking rain - Button - can't remember which race, but plumb last to win. That was one of the greatest drives I've ever seen
Montreal, I think it was 2012
Nope, it was 2011:
John Surtees, multiple motorbike champion, then to win F1 is still an unbelievable achievement.
what this has to do with how great a driver he is I have no idea!I've always liked him from his first season, even through his petulance and praising God...
Surtees could have thanked God, Allah, Buddha, gravity or random chance and he would still be the greatest!
Senna, Alonso, Hamilton, Shumacher, Prost, Vettel, only including since I started following in the 80s.
The opinion of a man who puts an Heineken logo on his shirt collar for a bit of money can be dismissed as irrelevant.
Best? Schumacher.
Least favourite? Schumacher.
2nd least favourite? Schumacher.
😉
Senna.
Special mention to Graham Hill for doing the triple I reckon.
Hill did the double, 62 and 68.
Hill did the double, 62 and 68.
That's not what the poster was referring too. Read up about it.
SennaDonnington 1993.
It rained.
A lot.
Watch that first lap.
Watch Barrichello follow him through and do exactly the same but get none of the plaudits 😉
"Greatest"?
Who has done more for driver safety?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/formula-1/2017/08/19/sir-jackie-stewart-people-will-not-like-halo-said-seatbelts/
For [i]talented[/i] driver it would be Jim Clark.
http://jimclarktrust.com/jim-clark/
joefm - Member
I wish Jackie Stewart would STFU. The guy is a whiny berk
ftfy
Another vote for Jim Clark here.
I'm no fan of Lewis' but he's certainly an amazing driver and maturing well (at last). Completely deserved this year's title.
It will be interesting to see how Max's career pans out. Once his youthful "i'm immortal so there's no harm in trying this move" ebullience has worn off a little will it leave a merely fast driver, like so many before, or has he got the raw talent [b]and[/b] range of personal skills to make the list?
Mansell.
Under privileged, unfit and at times unpaid, gave everything to his sport to eventually arrive. No chest of gold just several mortgages to buy a seat, heart on his sleeve and a very courageous driver.
A working mans hero.
Left field option, but Vettell is also worth consideration IMHO
Stirling Moss should also be on the list.
Before the accident that led him to retire Enzo Ferrari was going to give him a works Ferrari that he gave Stirling permission to paint blue so desperately did he want him in one of his cars.
Stirling didn't want to be in the works team so they came to an arrangement accordingly.
He also raced in so many disciplines and did exceedingly well in them all.
Left field option, but Vettell is also worth consideration IMHO
Considered. No.
Sure he is quick by himself but his actual racing skills are questionable.
geoffj - Member
Left field option, but Vettell is also worth consideration IMHO
I think he lacks the ability to control his temperament. He's very very close to top-tier IMHO but not quite. He may well achieve it over the next year or two though.
Sure he is quick by himself but his actual racing skills are questionable.
and
I think he lacks the ability to control his temperament. He's very very close to top-tier IMHO but not quite.
Both comments could have been applied to Schumacher and Senna at various points in their careers. I'm not suer he is as good, but I do agree with
He may well achieve it over the next year or two though
He just need to make his mark with the Ferrari
Graham Hill for 5 Monaco wins, 2 titles, Indy 500 and Le Mans.
Alan Prost for just being so smooth and making it all look easy, plus winning 4 titles at a super competitive time.
Alonso deserves a honorable shout out, for being a true racer.
geoffj - Member
Both comments could have been applied to Schumacher and Senna at various points in their careers. I'm not suer he is as good, but I do agree withHe may well achieve it over the next year or two though
The other thing is that Schumacher and Senna were more adaptable than Vettel. Both dragged some flawed cars to success. I don't think Vettel has shown he can do that just yet.
From what I have read, one area that he does shine in though is feedback for development of the car.
People keep waffling on about Fangio and it is difficult to compare across era's, but my problem with Fangio is that in his era most of his competition were rich playboys dabbling at racing as a hobby and spent most of their time drunk on champagne. It was not a professional sport. I think the level of competition in the modern era is a lot higher, its a professional sport rather than a pastime, with a much larger talent pool, so I suspect Fangio was a big fish in a very small pond so difficult to really gauge how good he was.
For me Schumacher has to be up there - he won 2 championships in the Benetton running a v8 when most people were running v10's, then jumped ship to a woeful Ferrari team who hadn't won a championship for over 20 years, and won 5 with them, which I reckon only 2 of those 5 were won when the Ferrari could be considered as the best car. So he has to be the best all-round driver - a good technical driver, knew the rules inside out and a great strategic driver so could adapt his strategy mid-race. The only driver to really display all these attributes in one person I think. He stretched the rules to breaking point, but so have a lot of the greats of the past. Its a ruthless sport and if you're not willing to push the limits of the rules as well as the car and your own skills, then you don't deserve to win.
In the current crop of drivers Hamilton stands head and shoulders above the rest, there are races where things have gone wrong and he has adapted and won, or at least finished well enough to keep title changes alive, and those are attributes of a great.
So not sure really in terms of a one single person. If you stuck any of them in a different era there are no guarantees that any would have even made it onto the grid let alone succeeded. I can't see a person of mixed race from a working class background making it on to the grid in an early 1900's Great Britain.
Sure he is quick by himself but his actual racing skills are questionable.
Now while I question Vettel‘s bid to be the greatest driver of all time, you’ve just seen him come from the back (ish) to 4th place twice, the second time going through the field rather better than Hamilton (possibly because Hamilton didn’t need to of course).
No he doesn’t overtake often. Not many of them do.
For me it's Schumacher, simply because I was a kid watching him race and dragging Ferrari back to the top. In fact when he retired I pretty much lost interest in F1, haven't watched a race in years.
Also -
Senna, obviously.
Lauda, did a similar job to Schumacher with Ferrari - getting back in a car after his accident is incredible
Villeneuve, incredibly talented, sublime car control, hooligan.
Nouvolari, hard to compare with more modern drivers but some of his achievements are insane.
Now while I question Vettel‘s bid to be the greatest driver of all time, you’ve just seen him come from the back (ish) to 4th place twice, the second time going through the field rather better than Hamilton (possibly because Hamilton didn’t need to of course).
I think the difference yesterday was that Hamilton was way behind as it took him so long to get back to the pits with the flat tyre. From memory he was around 30 seconds behind Sainz when he came back out of the pits. The strategy after that for Hamilton was to use the softs and hope to not pit again, in the hope that would be enough to get him back up to 5th. Vettel needed at least 2nd so used ultra and super softs.
Also, they alluded in commentary that as mercedes know they have the best power unit so the chassis is designed for leading races and suffers in dirty air with cooling and stability. We've seen in the past how good Hamilton is at overtaking. So I wouldn't use yesterday as a gauge of his ability.
Agreed. But the point being made was that Vettel can’t race. He could yesterday. On softs then ultras according to 5Live when I was listening.
Hamilton used softs then supers. He started about ten seconds behind Vettel as I recall.
That said as set up by Hamilton that Merc doesn’t race well in dirty air, I agree.
Hamilton's diffuser was also shagged from the contact at the start. The whole right corner was missing. Makes a big difference to handling and downforce.
As great a driver and voice for sanity and change in F1 as he was I simply can't take JS seriously when he wears the clown outfit all the time.
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Shui for me for all the reasons mentioned above and he's my era I guess but could easily include numerous obvious others in the list as equally deserving if you consider different criteria.
Reminds me I must read that Mansell book I've got somewhere.
Some interesting statistics here.
[url= https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Formula_One_driver_records ]F1 records[/url]
Particularly the percentage race wins which seems to me the only way to allow for different eras and different numbers of races in a season.
Now my hero as a youngster was Jim Clark and I was always impressed by how well his percentage win record stood up against more recent drivers. Note though that Fangio was streets ahead with Ascari second.
I still cling to my belief that Clark was the best ever though.
Unless we see Hamilton in a car that isn't the best by a long way then we simply do not know if he is one of the greats. Anyone of a dozen drivers would have won the WC in his car