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an attempt at rational persuasion is a better approach than telling someone they’re stupid
Absolutely, empathetic listening to their concerns and providing facts, suggesting that they talk to someone that they trust e.g. doctor, priest is the best way to change their mind
It is indeed the grandparents choice but she is old enough to know that the choices we make have consequences both for her and those around her.
The consequence is that you can't see them because you love them and don't want to harm them.
Part of the point of vaccinating anyone who is able to be vaccinated is so that those who can't be vaccinated are less at risk of infection.
I have no problem with those who literally can't be vaccinated not having it as it could kill them. Those who can have it, should. To not have it makes them selfish ****s.
Those who refuse on grounds other than actual, diagnosed medical reasons should be kept away from the general population. This goes for any vaccination, BTW, not just for Bat AIDS.
Part of the point of vaccinating anyone who is able to be vaccinated is so that those who can’t be vaccinated are less at risk of infection.
But this vaccine does not do this , and quite clearly states this fact, in fact the only people supporting this idea seem to be the government
But this vaccine does not do this
Does not do what? This?
Poor you. Feeling better for that?
I should probably have just left it at 'I felt uncomfortable with posting'.
Yes exactly that, it doesn't work, ask anyone working on covid wards
but I couldn’t face the likely howls of self-righteous derision
Poor you. Feeling better for that?
He's right though.
Going full-Dawkins on anti-vaxxers is counter-productive really, and it leaves an unpleasant aftertaste of those doing it flexing their perceived intellectual superiority.
Yes exactly that, it doesn’t work, ask anyone working on covid wards
Huh?
I have no problem with those who literally can’t be vaccinated not having it as it could kill them. Those who can have it, should. To not have it makes them selfish ****.
Agree. Young people* have been disproportionately affected by the pandemic and have been asked to shoulder the greatest burden of the lockdowns. They have lost jobs and been asked to put off meeting people, developing friendships, weddings etc, even though the risk to them of Covid is relatively low, in order to protect at risk (mostly older) people.
So to have an OAP refuse the silver bullet that is not only going to protect them, but also offer the rest of society a chance of getting back to normal, it's galling to say the least. I wouldn't say it in those terms to try and persuade a relative, but JFC some people need to get a grip.
* Regrettably I am not including myself in that. I mainly mean school children and young adults who don't have a family.
Deciding not to be vaccinated does not make anyone “anti vax”
Of course, they’re demonstrably big fans of it.
( I know in this case they are preaching not to but it’s a label being thrown around to make folk feel superior)
Don’t talk shite. You think people don’t want others to put their lives at risk out of a sense of superiority? “Look at me, all superior with my ‘not wanting to die’ attitude!” That’s the stupidest thing I’ve read on this thread so far and it’s a thread discussing people who refuse to be vaccinated so it’s a pretty * high bar.
If they don’t want it I see no reason to stop kids visiting.
I mean, the kids might wind up killing their grandparents. So there’s always that. Which is their own fault, but the kids will have to live with that guilt for the rest of their lives.
There choice.
It is. They’re choosing to be selfish *. Welcome to a free country.
It’s the same as these **** roasters walking around supermarkets with their beaks hanging out over the top of their masks or, as seems to be becoming increasingly common, pulling them down to have a conversation. Y’know, right when you need them the most.
Also, it’s “their”. If you want to live here you should probably take time to learn the language.
And this guy used to be a moderator on here? That explains a lot.
Excommunicating your grandparents is way over the top in my opinion.
Everyone calling for that, please take a step back...
Even if they get vaccinated there’s still a significant chance they could get it and pass it on.
Where is the love in the room?
There is a risk to the kids, no one knows what the longer term effects are of having caught covid as a child
Whilst the risk is not known, it's worth noting that children catch coronaviruses relatively frequently and build their immunity against morbidity throughout childhood. It's expected that SARS-CoV2 will be the same. The vaccine is really imparting the absence of all those childhood infections in one dose, that adults never had (and hence suffer morbidity).
People act rationally for their own frame of reference. That frame of reference may be different to yours or mine, but their behavior is normally "rational". In this case the belief held is that the vaccine is experimental, and that is true. But much else is unknown too, and as more knowledge becomes available, so people may change their point of reference. We do however already know that children, notably older ones, present a significant transmission burden and hence a risk to the elderly. The reverse is not true.
Some pretty hardcore stances here.
My take would be slightly more laid back.
"We're gettings our done and as the kids, that's not up for discussion. You can choose what you do, but if you decide not to have it then it's unlikely you'll see the grandkids closer than 2m away again or inside the house ever again, yes, that includes Xmas. By the way, have you updated your Will yet?".
Life is to short to start arguing with people of those views. Make your decisions, look after yourself and move on.
not just for Bat AIDS
It's more of a bat flu than bat aids
Even if they get vaccinated there’s still a significant chance they could get it and pass it on.
the risk of transmission after vaccination is not "significant" and combined with continuation of normal precautions (washing hands, wearing a mask social distancing) it's hugely reduced compared to the risk of some-one who's not been vaccinated. ,
Just do a flow test on the kids before going to see her, or get Cougar to shout in her face until she gives in.
Good grief.
Of course I would handle a relative differently if I were trying to persuade them. I'm not trying to persuade anyone here because heaven forfend that anyone might change their mind after reading some words, the brexit threads proved that pretty conclusively. Roasters gonna roast. I'm just incredibly pissed off with the wilfully ignorant and their apologists and enablers.
I swear, if I ever get to meet Andrew Wakefield I'm going to shake him warmly by the throat.
In this case the belief held is that the vaccine is experimental, and that is true.
No it's not. It's gone through the full testing and licencing/approval process just like any other vaccine.
I have no problem with those who literally can’t be vaccinated not having it as it could kill them. Those who can have it, should. To not have it makes them selfish ****.
What happened to people's right to choose what they put in their body? btw, im not an anti vaxer i will get it when ever that happens, but I do support peoples right do choose what they want.
im more inline with Lungs stance, make your position clear and after that they do what they want.
What happened to people’s right to choose what they put in their body?
No one has to have the vaccine.
People are allowed to consider others selfish if they decide not to do so without good reason.
People are absolutely allowed to choose what they put in their body, but that comes with the responsibility of not being a danger to the rest of society, purely by being dim and parasitic.
Of course you can choose but with those choices come consequences and in this case ( I have no kids) but if i was in that position the kids would not be seeing the grandparents. Not just because of the covid danger but because of the anti science attitude
No it’s not. It’s gone through the full testing and licencing/approval process just like any other vaccine.
You might like to look at the number patient-years of experience at submission for other vaccines (e.g., shingrix: 7000 patients, median 4 years/patient partly for efficacy claim). Pfizer and Moderna vaccines are approved for Emergency Use Authorisation in the US. The EMA approved based on rolling review. That means the approval can be removed based on emergent and continuous data monitoring.
I consider the clinical trial experiments adequate and well-controlled (Ox/AZ original trials less so), and appropriate for the decision to provide immediate protection of the population from COVID19 based on available benefit-risk. However there are remaining questions such as duration of protection, protection for emergent strains.
im glad that's the feeling but reading this thread what also amazes me is the language people are using about people who don't want the vaccine for any reasons that's personal to them. Scanning these pages we have had "dim and parasitic", "she’s an idiot", "They’re choosing to be selfish *", "To not have it makes them selfish *." Having a vaccine is a personal choice if they don't want it move on. Have a godo day all its super sunny outside so im gonna move my desk to the garden table.
I think turning down the vaccine without good reason is a selfish choice. It's still a choice open to people if that's what they want. It's a personal choice, but with implications for the rest of society. And close family.
You might like to look at the number patient-years of experience at submission for other vaccines (e.g., shingrix: 7000 patients, median 4 years/patient partly for efficacy claim).
I'm not sure whether you're suggesting that the current crop of vaccines have been more or less rigorously test than that? Pfizer trial 40,000+ participants, AZ was initially 20,000+ but something like 50,000 now enrolled internationally.
Most safety endpoints in these (anaphylaxis, rash, even the purported blood clots) trials occur very rapidly after the first dose (certainly within a month), and as you well know, the disease prevalence is crucial for determining vaccine efficacy endpoints. High prevalence of disease --> less time required for these trials to meet their efficacy targets. On this basis I don't think anyone is really disputing the efficacy. But some people seem intent on inventing / exaggerating safety issues.
EDIT: I know you know all that. But I'm sure others don't.
But some people seem intent on inventing / exaggerating safety issues.
I'd agree with that. My point is largely academic. The efficacy endpoint is really immediate and/or near-term protection from symptomatic COVID19 (not prevention of transmission of SARS-CoV2). On that basis, and requiring three months protection, the trials are all "adequate and well-controlled" (that's a technical term for approval btw). I have no qualms about the design, conduct, review and approval process of the vaccines, and have been happy to receive my first dose. The benefit-risk of these vaccines will be monitored very closely - notably for emergent strains like the SA B.1.351 strain. Should protection be reduced, the benefit-risk ratio changes and a license can be withdrawn (or vaccine replaced with a new version). This is regulation working as it should.
I also believe in personal choice, and it is the job of policy makers to explain their position rather than mandate. Now if other places choose to mandate... that's another matter and more likely to sway opinion. If the OP's grandparents expect to go engage in foreign travel, I fully expect vaccine passports to become the norm. Forget seeing your grandchildren, think cruise!
Cinnamon girl to the thread please...
😂😂
Cougar, whilst I agree with your sentiment, you seem overly angry about this!
I fully expect vaccine passports to become the norm.
How would that work long term do you reckon? Surely you'd need proof of a booster, which may or may not be offered to the non at risk population?
I fully expect vaccine passports to become the norm.
More of a stopgap for certain activities over the next 12 months-ish, perhaps?
How would that work long term do you reckon?
Probably won't be long term.
How it would work? Badly Inconsistently, but better than nothing. Like the smallpox one. My dad had that one when I was a kid, as he was stationed all over the place.
EDIT: to be clear, I'm only talking about proof for international travel... as I think TiRed was as well. All the talk of "passports" to go to the pub, or the cinema, or shops, is idle speculation unlikely to amount to anything much... so not worth getting vexed about.
I fully expect vaccine passports to become the norm.
No issue with transports but only once everyone has been offered the vaccine. It doesn't set well with me at all if you're young, are of low risk and haven't been offered it but are still from stopped from doing things.
im glad that’s the feeling but reading this thread what also amazes me is the language people are using about people who don’t want the vaccine for any reasons that’s personal to them. Scanning these pages we have had “dim and parasitic”, “she’s an idiot”, “They’re choosing to be selfish *”, “To not have it makes them selfish *.” Having a vaccine is a personal choice if they don’t want it move on.
Yes, that would be fine if they promised to stay indoors always and not interact with anyone who has been vaccinated or anyone who plans to interact with people who have been vaccinated ( or people who can't be vaccinated for good medical reason)
I'm all for equal rights for stupid selfish people.... until such time as it impacts less stupid selfish people. At that point fuggem.
I'd imagine a lot of older people will remember times when absolutely horrific diseases such as Smallpox, Polio, TB etc. were rife. It was vaccinations that eradicated (or almost eradicated) these diseases.
In the last 20-odd years there has been what was a slow erosion in trust in the benefits of vaccines, from the Andrew Wakefield MMR fraud to a tsunami of misinformation and absolute bollocks being bandied about on the internet.
It's absolutely right that these people are called out. I'd do it to my parents, but they've had their jabs.
what also amazes me is the language people are using about people who don’t want the vaccine for any reasons that’s personal to them.
Name one legitimate reason that isn't "ignorance" or "wilful defiance"?
Healthy people refusing a vaccine because they either don't understand and won't listen to science, or think they're Wolfie Smith, put at risk vulnerable people who cannot have the vaccine. It really is that cut & dried.
There is a very real risk that due to other underlying health issues, if my girlfriend's daughter comes down with CoViD-19 it may kill her. I held my girlfriend in the bath yesterday whilst she sobbed her heart out on my shoulder out of sheer terror and panic because the local GP hasn't offered daughter the vaccine yet whilst GF has to work in a school all day full of potential plague rats with no concept of personal space.
If your only argument against getting the vaccine is "I don't want to" then, well, do I really need to finish this sentence?
Wear a mask. Get the vaccination. Stop thinking you're special. Don't kill my girlfriend's daughter. KKTHXBI
Cougar, whilst I agree with your sentiment, you seem overly angry about this!
Everyone else isn't angry enough.
I've been lucky so far. Others less so. A colleague in my team has lost several family members to this virus now, either directly or indirectly. As have plenty of others, some of whom have posted on this very thread. "I don't want to" butters no parsnips any more.
Forget passports. We're doing this wrong 😉
Loved that vid cougar. Thought they delivered it with just the right amount of 'anger'
Can they expand the vaccination passport to cover more aspects of life? No proof of vaccine, no entry to pub/restaurant/chippy/cinema/shopping center/spanish holiday home
When you die, you're not allowed a funeral, you just get hoofed in a mass grave or processed into pig food.
Lets see how many are really "anti-vax" when they're told they have to stay in lockdown for another 6 months while vaccinated people get to go on holiday. Caught outside, 50 grand fine or a year in the clink for putting lives in danger
Can they expand the vaccination passport to cover more aspects of life? No proof of vaccine, no entry to pub/restaurant/chippy/cinema/shopping center/spanish holiday home...
Reread what you have just said. You basically want to punish people because they wont get a jab and have a different view from you.
Reread what you have just said. You basically want to punish people because they wont get a jab and have a different view from you.
Alternatively, we want to protect ourselves from the wilful stupidity of anti-vaxxers.
I have zero sympathy for the anti-vaxx brigade - absolutely fed up of having to accommodate the stupidity of other people. To me, it’s no different from laughing at the Darwin Awards...
Alternatively, we want to protect ourselves from the wilful stupidity of anti-vaxxers. I have zero sympathy for the anti-vaxx brigade – absolutely fed up of having to accommodate the stupidity of other people. To me, it’s no different from laughing at the Darwin Awards…
I will tell you what... how about we make all the anti vaxers wear a badge so "we can "protect ourselves from the wilful stupidity of anti-vaxxers"...
Just because you have right on your side doesn't make you right. Clearly some people are incapable of rational thinking when it comes to this, and i get it its an emotive issue with people already living with higher stress levels than normal. im out. trying not to get into endless debates these days here its pointless.
Reread what you have just said. You basically want to punish people because they wont get a jab and have a different view from you.
*sigh* The OP isn't forcing his view on the grandparents, if anything they're protecting their kids AND their grandparents from contracting Covid. If I were in the OP's position I'd do exactly the same.
You basically want to punish people because they wont get a jab and have a different view from you.
When that differing view has a direct impact on the vast majority of people and goes against the good of society then I don't really have an issue with it.
Reread what you have just said. You basically want to punish people because they wont get a jab and have a different view from you.
People who don't want the vaccine (for no justifiable reason) but also think they should have all the benefits of other people taking the vaccine - it's wanting all the advantages of living in society without taking any of the responsibility.
Can you really not see why that doesn't sit well with people?
Reread what you have just said. You basically want to punish people because they wont get a jab and have a different view from you.
Your choice to refuse a vaccine, society has the right to refuse you entry to places and services
Its as simple as that.
I do not want to be put at risk by antivaxxers. I too have seen people die from this disease. Its a bit different when you are holding someone as they die. Tends to concentrate the mind
so by all means refuse the vaccine but accept the consequences.
I will tell you what… how about we make all the anti vaxers wear a badge so “we can “protect ourselves from the wilful stupidity of anti-vaxxers”…
Excellent idea! Is your next post going to be suggesting a particular colour and geometric design, or are you going to spare us that ludicrous analogy.
Excellent idea! Is your next post going to be suggesting a particular colour and geometric design, or are you going to spare us that ludicrous analogy.
The ludicrous analogy was to highlight how ludicrous some of the suggestions from people have been, clearly its ridiculous just like saying being outside is a 50 grand fine or a year in the clink for putting lives in danger.
Can you really not see why that doesn’t sit well with people?
I can see it, i just don't agree with the language people have used or that these people should be punished in some sort of way. thats all im gonna say, clearly we will never agree. My views are just not as extreme as others.
Individuals have to be allowed to choose what happens to them; people have to be able to choose even if their choice seems unwise or detrimental. To argue otherwise is the top of a slippery slope.
Some people don't want the vaccine.
Deal with it.
Name one legitimate reason that isn’t “ignorance” or “wilful defiance”?
Healthy people refusing a vaccine because they either don’t understand and won’t listen to science, or think they’re Wolfie Smith, put at risk vulnerable people who cannot have the vaccine. It really is that cut & dried.
No, it isn't cut and dried. You may think so, but it really isn't.
A legitimate reason? How about "drawing a different conclusion from the same data"?
My ex, who is highly intelligent, has done endless research over many years and almost certainly knows ten times more about this subject than you do, will not have any vaccines or have any given to my children. This pre-dates Wakefield.
I don't think she's an idiot or a dumb ****. Nor do I think she should be ostracised.
Nobody has a monopoly on being "right".
People who don’t want the vaccine (for no justifiable reason) but also think they should have all the benefits of other people taking the vaccine – it’s wanting all the advantages of living in society without taking any of the responsibility.
Very well put. And could also apply to other aspects of life.
People have the right to make choices. They also have to take responsibility for the outcome.
My ex, who is highly intelligent, has done endless research over many years and almost certainly knows ten times more about this subject than you do, will not have any vaccines or have any given to my children.
🤣/😟
Some people don’t want the vaccine.
Deal with it.
We are dealing with it, but if they are allowed to have that (very hard to justify rationally) view, how come we are not allowed to have the (much more rationally justifiable) view that their behaviour is ignorant or selfish or both.
There is no vaccine for kids yet.
That's a shame. It'd be useful. I guess we're stuck with overpopulation then.
Ahh… chrispo is back. Many different anti-vax stories told with no internal constancy to them, never mind looking bat shit crazy from the outside. If any of the tales were true, I’d say, crack on, you be you, live and let live. But it’s all made up for either shits and giggles (sad, but hey, people need hobbies) or to try and spread anti-vax sentiment (in which case, everyone point and scream).
My ex, who is highly intelligent, has done endless research over many years and almost certainly knows ten times more about this subject than you do,
You do know we actually have folk who are experts making vaccines on here? What is your wifes background in science, medicine and epidemiology?
If it were up to me non vaccinated kids would not be allowed into schools and other public places
YOu do also realise that there are illnesses in the UK where the medical team have the right to compulsory treat people?
NO one is suggesting compulsory vaccines just that we have the right as a society to protect ourselves by refusing service to unvaccinated.
Why should we be put at risk by your refusal to vaccinate?
Some people think it's okay to drink and drive cos, you know, they've checked the stats and the chances are it won't happen to them.
Very wrong of society to impose its own differing view on the matter.
has done endless research over many years and almost certainly knows ten times more about this subject than you do
Peer reviewed medically driven research or internet bollocks. I'm assuming the latter otherwise she would have come to a different conclusion. Intelligence doesn't stop people holding idiotic and selfish views.
i just don’t agree with the language people have used
OK, let me rephrase what I said earlier.
Don’t kill my girlfriend’s daughter. Pretty please with sugar on top, I'll be your friend.
or that these people should be punished in some sort of way.
Again, they aren't being "punished," rather they aren't being afforded optional luxuries. Is a gym "punishing" non-members by not letting them use the facilities for free? Christ, this is the brexit argument all over again.
im out.
Demonstrably not. You can't even follow your own rules, let alone anyone else's.
Intelligence doesn’t stop people holding idiotic and selfish views.
Well, it does. But claiming intelligence doesn't confer it.
Well, it does.
It doesn't always, lots of very clever people have idiotic and selfish views - they reckon more intelligent people can come up with more plausible justifications for their prejudices/impulses so are no less prone to BS unless they have trained themselves to combat it.
Clever does not equal intelligent
Intelligent does not equal clever
And common sense is often absent from both.
Natural selection prospers on stupid.
Wanna exercise your rights? Then you need to acknowledge those of others. No one is being dragged kicking and screaming into a health centre against their will and ratchet strapped to a bed to be jabbed. You have the 'right' to refuse. .
But if you do, you HAVE to accept the right of venues to refuse your custom if they judge it would be a risk to their customers and/or their business. A commercial decision to exclude the unvaccinated. Sports venues, pubs, concert venues, airlines etc. Their right, just as it's yours to not be vaccinated. Fair enough?
And in a similar vein, would anyone on this thread who supports people refusing vaccinations deny for example, the right of a care home for the elderly insisting on their staff being vaccinated as a condition of employment?
My ex, who is highly intelligent, has done endless research over many years and almost certainly knows ten times more about this subject than you do, will not have any vaccines or have any given to my children. This pre-dates Wakefield.
I don’t think she’s an idiot or a dumb ****.
Well, we'll have to agree to differ then, because I do.
What's her credentials? Virologist is she? Immunologist? Or has she "done her research" on an anti-vax website / Facebook group which reinforces her opinions?
Tell you what,If you want to post up here her reasons why she thinks that then it'd take me about 30 seconds to refute her "years of research" as unsubstantiated bollocks and I suspect I'm not the only one.
And you cannot possibly have the first inkling of what I do or don't know about this subject.
It doesn’t always, lots of very clever people have idiotic and selfish views
Aye. What we have here is False Authority Syndrome. "My ex must be right because she's clever!"
No. Anyone who's clever entertains the idea that they might be wrong and indeed welcomes being proven so. All I've seen thus far countering what I'm saying is whining and abuse with a side order of "we shouldn't be forced to do something that no-one is forcing us to do" fantasy nonsense.
Yo science, bitches.
Your wife is a dumb ** putting your children at risk and also risking others.
And you need to wind your neck in. Their children, their responsibility. Whether you agree with it or not, whether the poster with the ‘highly intelligent’ wife is right or not, if you told me my wife is a dumb * I’d probably punch you.
This thread is pretty much a carbon copy of the Brexit thread - did nobody learn that shouting at people telling them they’re stupid doesn’t work?
I used to work for a large pharma, I had a pretty good understanding of the test cycle for new medicine and yes, when it first came out I was concerned that sufficient testing might not have been completed to ensure long term effects were known. However I’ve read up on it and I’m as comfortable as I’m going to be with it. In addition I don’t want to be responsible for harming someone else by being a carrier so obvs I’ll be getting the jab.
However if some dickhead started shouting at me telling me I’m an idiot/scum/hard of thinking and don’t deserve certain rights because I don’t think along the same lines as them, I’d probably tell them to do one.
Cougar - I totally get you being emotive about this with the situation as you explained it. I’m just not sure yelling at people or calling them idiots is the right way to go about it.