[Closed] Grandparent anti-vax stance

I don't have kids but I think in that situation no one would be visiting the grandparents

It's not the kids at risk from granny, it's granny who is at risk from your kids.

Also, she's an idiot. Sorry, but I'm very bored of this wilful galloping shitwittery around vaccines. People are dying because of scaremongering and a chronic lack of understanding of basic science. It's been rushed to market because, y'know, you might not have noticed but, pandemic, but that doesn't mean it isn't subject to the controls that every other vaccine has been.

Yes, in very rare cases people can have reactions to them. The same is true of Paracetamol, and of peanuts, but no-one ever had an "experimental Snickers". Even this being the case, the alternative is far, far worse. How many people do you know who have had Polio? An entire, and very nasty, disease eradicated globally in a generation.

Might be with trying to find out where the information is coming from.

What @Cougar said 👍

Might be with trying to find out where the information is coming from.

Mail or Express? *flips coin*

Yes, your mum's at risk, not your children. Tell her that for her own safety she will no longer be able to her grandchildren unless there is a pane of glass between them to protect her.

I also have older idiot family members who also have the anti-vax stance. Me and my brother have told them that if they ever want to see either of us ever again then there going to have to get the vaccine.

Cheers both, TJ - this is what I fear and it'll be detrimental to a relationship for no good reason.

Cougar, I'm very much of the same mindset as you. Don't think she reads any paper let alone those two excellent publications

But yeah. A good counter might be "why"?

"Experimental," well, no it isn't, as above. That's just a basic misunderstanding on her part. Any of the other usual AVB (Anti-Vax Bullshit) suspects - mercury / foetuses / autism / my friend knew someone who had a vaccine and 50 years later they died! / etc - are all well documented and readily refuted.

Had a similar problem with the MiL when their vaccine appointment came in initially, didn't want to have it as she had decided in her wisdom that it wasn't safe (goes without saying she has no medical background and had done no research to backup her theory!), was told in no uncertain terms that she wouldn't be seeing (non socially distanced) grandkids or even the rest of us until she gets it due to the chances of her selfishness resulting in the grandchildren having to live with the knowledge that they had infected a grandparent and put them in hospital or worse.!!

She backed down fairly quickly and has had her first dose without complaint.

Apart from when someone decides to believe what a friend sharec on Facebook over the real science, because one is emotional manipulation and worded as such, the other contains lots of big words and dull maths.

I too would take a hard stance on this one.

A neighbour of mine who's just had his first jab got similarly fed up with an anti-vax friend. He was ranting about it the other day. Said that if they refused a vaccine and then got ill with Covid, they should be charged full price of their treatment.

He finished by saying "that'd make the dumb **** think twice!"

My mum's had both now, and my dad will be not far behind. MIL, who is very high risk has had both.

You really don't want to be giving the virus to her, and even if vaccinated you can still carry it. Kids are germ machines.

they'll come round once the "passporting" kicks in.

Cheers all, I've not plucked up the courage for an ultimatum but can see it heading that way.

Sell it on the 'we don't want you getting ill from seeing us' point of view. My folks are desparate to see us and grandkids. Not been for a pint with my dad for 6 months.

My wife’s parents had their doses no problem.

My parents won’t be.

But that’s because one died with suspected but not tested COVID and one with confirmed COVID.

Get your vaccinations. And tell those you care about to do the same.

I have no time for this kind of stupidity.

Next.

When you were a kid you had to do what they said because they knew better than you.

Tell them the boot's on the other foot now. It's been extensively researched and tested and the risk compared to the risk of Covid, particularly to someone of their age, makes it a no brainer. So in the same way as like it or not you had to eat your greens / put your shoes on / go to school despite all your irrational reasoning and tantrums, just do as they're told and get the jab.

Otherwise you'll have to take the rational decision to protect them from themselves by not exposing them to the risk of infection.

It’s like the total Fork Wits I hear deciding they won’t have the 2nd jab cos the 1st made them feel “ a bit rough” for a few days 🤬🤬🤬

Good luck with the oldies, it may seem tough but exposure to the grandkids is really not a bright idea without vaccinations so if it was me there would be no contact until jabbed

As above, you're kids are not at significant risk of covid from the grandparents. However, it's the risks associated with stupid that would concern me.

Cheers all, I’ve not plucked up the courage for an ultimatum but can see it heading that way.

Show her this thread. Or at least, igm's post, which is really all that needs to be said.

Unfortunately, for all her failings, my MIL had her jab..... So I didn't have an excuse to stop her coming round 😒

Keep in mind... people who are reluctant to get vaccinated are for the most part the victim of a hoax not the perpetrator of it. You're right to feel angry about it, but don't get angry with them as its the situation not the person that's the problem.  Broadly speaking people form opinions very easily but once its formed an opinion is a very difficult thing to budge. It doesn't matter how well reasoned your arguments are, you're on the back foot because someone else got there first.

Whatever the emotional response is to anti-vaxxers, whatever your personal feelings are with respect to your family, it may not be the most productive means of communication.

I work in a field where there is a small but significant hardcore of individuals who have refused the vaccine (this is a significant issue as it's health and social care, and it is young women who are refusing). We managed to get all but one of our reluctant guys vaccinated. It required patience and a putting aside of strong opinion. Start by asking the person to rationalise their objections, ask where they got the information from, give them options and allow time to digest those options, give lots of examples of peers taking the vaccine.

Good luck.

people who are reluctant to get vaccinated are for the most part the victim of a hoax not the perpetrator of it.

Until

today said she hoped that both I and my children (7 & 5) wouldn’t have the “experimental” product.

at which point this is no longer true. Entitled to opinions blah blah it's my own choice, yeah whatever, but as soon as they start telling others then they've crossed a line. It's dangerous, reckless and irresponsible and they need to stop it in short order.

Cheers sparks, I'll try the softly softly approach and plant some seeds before resorting to the ultimatum.

And yes Cougar, it pissed me right off during today's phone call when she expressed her hope 🤬

If she drives, ask her how she feels about using an experimental car. In reply to the puzzled response, point out that only half a million (or as appropriate to the model) or so have been made. And in response to the further reply, how many people have had the vaccine...

This vaccine is being promoted by that lovely Boris the nice man that they voted for.
Tell them if they want to die alone on a ventilator then that's their choice.
My parents are a bit older and are also set in their ways. I've long given up trying to reason with them.

due to the chances of her selfishness resulting in the grandchildren having to live with the knowledge that they had infected a grandparent and put them in hospital or worse.!!

This is key. I agree it's important to find out where her opinions have come from and try to reason her round, but while she is unlikely to kill her grandkids by passing it on, the reverse is much more likely.

My parents were struggling to stay within the social distancing rules when we could meet up last summer, we are quite a "huggy" family. I had to be strict when the kids went back to school last September, and what got through to my mum was that I didn't want my kids worrying that they'd killed her.

Parents about to get second jab, suspect discreet hugs will happen end of April.

but as soon as they start telling others then they’ve crossed a line.

it just means they believe it and they're frightened for their own well being and others. That still makes them a victim. They may be doing a bad thing but they believe they are doing a good thing and have good reasons for doing it.

They aren't even rushed vaccines. They are just accelerated. Accessing funding that usually makes up a portion of development time was made available.

Great little infomercial from Uni of Oxford here:

And that's really sad news @igm. Hope you are OK. As much as i suppose you can be.

She's old enough to remember polio and refuses the Corona virus vaccine?

Hard to have sympathy tbph.

Shite for you unfortunately.

IGM’s post brought a small tear, and then sharbait’s made me chuckle.

All our elder generations, on both my side and my kid’s mother’s side, have jumped at the chance to get vaccinated. They cover the full range of political views, class, education levels and intelligence. None have fallen for the anti-vac line, and the same is pretty much true across the UK. It’s very sad and frustrating that some still fall into it, and if, like the OP, this includes your family, then I really feel for you. You can take some solace from the fact that even they are being made safer by the high uptake amongst people more generally in the UK, even if they don’t have the vaccine themselves. We are getting something right here in the UK, this time, and pushing back against the spreading of misinformation that is sadly becoming the norm. Early in the pandemic it was far from certain that we’d get this so right. Well done UK, we can do it, see.

@Maccruiskeen +1

It’s a difficult situation good luck to the OP

They aren’t even rushed vaccines. They are just accelerated.

I was about to say something simmilar - this particular virus is a varient of a very common virus for which new vaccines are developed for each year... so they were probably halfway there in terms of vaccine development before they even started.

It's not like it's 'new' to science'. More that it's a very problematic branch of evoloution of a somewhat known virus.

resulting in the grandchildren having to live with the knowledge that they had infected a grandparent and put them in hospital or worse

I'd be pushing this line, it takes the decision out of her hands. You could try and convince her with science/daily mail articles/whatever, but I suspect the easiest approach would be the emotional one.

To those expressing sympathy thank you.

It was 14 days apart back in April / May last year in the same care home and they were at the tail end of brilliant lives.

I miss them but I’m strangely ok with it now.

But I wouldn’t wish it on others if they have the opportunity to avoid it.

Just live and let live (or die) if they dont want it then so be it?

I wouldnt be worried about children catching it, the risk is to them and that is up to them.

Even Donald Trump has had the vaccine(*). If it's good enough for him, it's good enough for the rest of us.

(*) Although kept strangely quiet about it for reasons best known to him.

maccruiskeen + another 1

There's plenty on here who'd win an internet argument, but the problem is really "how do you talk to your folks so they choose to do the right thing."
There's a few ways in, but you know them best.
With my mum, if she's minded to do something stupid then I can usually pull her round by suggesting that it's what Pritti Patel would want her to do.
In this case - reducing the national pension cost.

These anti vexer old fogeys are missing out. I got my jab yesterday and my wife today. She bumped into a friend who was volunteering and she said a couple of months ago when all the older age groups were coming most of them had dressed up for the occasion. I guess most hadn't been out for the best part of a year and they decided to make an occasion of it. That's the British spirit for me. One bloke turned up in full Tuxedo and bow tie. I'd have loved to have seen that.

Thanks all for your respective responses, will see how it goes trying to steer her round.

I find it hard to empathise with her point of view without getting annoyed instantly.

There is a risk to the kids, no one knows what the longer term effects are of having caught covid as a child. I'm not sure what's the worse risk, someone in their 70s dying a few years early after a good healthy life to that point, or someone having to live with an autoimmune condition from the age of 5

My mam's had her first one fortunately but regarding others' stances on calling out forkwittery I totally agree. It makes for some uncomfortable moments sometimes but I'm fed up of living in an idiocracy.

There is a risk to the kids, no one knows what the longer term effects are of having caught covid as a child. I’m not sure what’s the worse risk, someone in their 70s dying a few years early after a good healthy life to that point, or someone having to live with an autoimmune condition from the age of 5

This is spot on. The same wallopers that come out "but it's been rushed, the long term effects are unknown" fail to engage their brain long enough to recognise this. Those that do just usually flip to the "it's a hoax" conspiracy when the contradictions and lack of understanding in the testing argument is pointed out.

I'm always puzzled by the way a lot of stupid people have done a lot of "research" to back up their stupid pronouncements on things like vaccines and conspiracy theories.
Just a shame they can't spend time researching actual facts. I suppose it's a lot less exciting.

Has anyone got figures for the amount of blood clots noted in long haul fliers, routine operations & the contraceptive pill? My BIL is an anti vaxxer but flies long haul to see friends in Seattle. (not lately, obs) His arguments are, the blood clot thing that was mentioned & that Boris is making a fortune out of it,(he hates the tories too) which is probably true but someone's going to & if it stops me getting it or being very ill I don't give a shite. Plus he doesn't trust Astra Zenica either, no idea why.

Deciding not to be vaccinated does not make anyone "anti vax" It just means they have decided not to have it. ( I know in this case they are preaching not to but it's a label being thrown around to make folk feel superior)

There choice. Your choice of how to deal with it, but really ? if they don't want it I see no reason to stop kids visiting.
Kids aren't at risk and grandparent has made their choice.

Anti vaxers are part of the 51%....

There choice. Your choice of how to deal with it, but really ? if they don’t want it I see no reason to stop kids visiting.
Kids aren’t at risk and grandparent has made their choice.

Kids have a much lower risk but its not zero.

I'd just avoid them, their choice not to have the jab but they have to accept social isolation as a consequence of their decision.

They'll back down if they realise it's the only way they'll see their grand kids again.

I have zero tolerance for such stupidity, just deport them all to the IoW and stick a massive barbed wire fence round them. They can come out if they have a jab, otherwise let them rot.

For the sake of debate only:

If you and kids are vaccinated what is the risk to you?

If she 100% understands that if she has made the wrong decision Covid could kill her, yet is happy with that risk, regardless if it is right or wrong, what is the problem?

Personally I think it is pretty stupid but that is standard for MIL’s right?

if they don’t want it I see no reason to stop kids visiting.

Wel for starters, there's the worry that stupidity might be contagious.

If you and kids are vaccinated what is the risk to you?

The fact that the vaccine doesn't prevent you getting the desease, it just [significantly] reduces the risk.

My parents won’t be.

But that’s because one died with suspected but not tested COVID and one with confirmed COVID.

Shit, that's a tough one to take. Luckily for me despite me having had it and Mrs anagallis I've been unaffected as far as losing anyone close...brings it into focus. Take care of yourself.

I’m always puzzled by the way a lot of stupid people have done a lot of "research"

Usually done sitting on the pan, rather than as part of recognised research institute.

You could just gently explain that you are all getting the vaccine when available. Prior to any visit it would be nice if she could confirm where the will is, her preference on cremation or burial and where the family photos are.

A different issue, but the same principle, happened when we were planning to have sprogs. Both my in-laws smoked 20-40 a day. I just said if they carry on, we will not visit them and they must not smoke at all when with the kids.

Lo and behold, grandad stopped smoking within a few weeks (closely followed by a heart attack) and grandma is down to tooting on a douche flute a few times a day, which I've tolerated because she does make a remarkable effort to get out of sight/smell when doing it.

The parallels are there; "it's going to kill me not you" and other such bullshit taking the c'est la vie approach.

It's also remarkable how many oldies think they are impervious to the virus having had their 2 jabs. While a bunch more walk around in terror and further more like the OP's example still pretend this thing is somehow not real. Do they not talk to each other?!?

if they don’t want it I see no reason to stop kids visiting.
Kids aren’t at risk and grandparent has made their choice.

As several of us have said, we don't want our kids worried they'd killed granny.

It's their funeral.

Not being in that situation, I don't know how I would react, but I think it would be somewhere between banning visits and shrugging and letting them take the risk if they are so eager. I wouldn't be worried about any threat they might pose nor would I lose any sleep over infecting them. After all you'd never know it was you anyway.

****ing hell Igm that’s sobering though, my deepest condolences.

Wouldn't bother me in the slightest , she is entitled to her opinion but as long as you and the family comply there isn't really a problem In my opinion. Live and let live

Kids aren’t at risk

Admittedly not from the current variants at large in UK today, the P1 type on the other hand is killing lots of young people in Brazil. Once the flying starts that will be coming here (probably from a Portuguese/Spanish territory), then all bets are off on your statement.

You have my condolences igm. MiL died at New Year from enforced isolation in the care home (she gave up as life was not worth it any more after 3 months of on/off self isolation in her room).

I'd ask her local GP to phone her and explain the questions she is clearly worried about. She is afraid of it, and at that age people will tend to be so, especially given all the misinformation and actual side effects.
She need reassurance, not negativity.

I'm of the opinion with all those refusing the vaccine for non medical reasons that ultimately it's up to them. That said if they subsequently die because of their own stupid desicion that's just tough luck, I'll have very little sympathy

I'd be happy to visiting them once I'd been vaccinated, risk to you is minimal. If they die because they get something from the kids then just remind them they could have picked it up from anywhere.

"As several of us have said, we don’t want our kids worried they’d killed granny."

And you'd be sure to tell your kids they were to blame wouldn't you...

If someone doesn't want it, you can't force them. Maybe they've had a rich and fruitful life and despair of their namby pamby offspring who don't appear to do much of interest, just spending every waking hour on a cycling forum when they don't even cycle..
Or maybe they just don't like being used as free babysitters...

As several of us have said, we don’t want our kids worried they’d killed granny.

They're only likely to get this idea from their parents at 5 & 7. IF she's against vaccines she probably will just return to normal life as things open up so she's more likely to catch it elsewhere than from people who have been vaccinated. You should feel free to let her know you disagree with her choice but it makes little sense to cut her out of your, and your kids life.

There is a risk to the kids, no one knows what the longer term effects are of having caught covid as a child. I’m not sure what’s the worse risk, someone in their 70s dying a few years early after a good healthy life to that point, or someone having to live with an autoimmune condition from the age of 5

Totally spot on. The “it doesn’t affect kids” brigade should come and meet my youngest daughter (2). We strongly suspect she has long COVID, having come down with something inexplicable that made her vomit, have a temperature, breath bizarrely rapidly, not sleep, not eat, for an entire month on return from skiing in Austria in feb last year. She has days where she can’t walk more than 50metres, wont scoot on her bike, or play in the garden. I get “daddy my arm’s sore” or “my legs hurt” or “I got pain in my tummy” and this look of genuine desperation.

The day we rushed her to Sunderland Royal, having had her turn blue, that was just £¥#%ing marvellous. It was at the start of it all, there was no testing and they literally wouldn’t let her in the building.

I know it’s a vaccine (not a cure or a preventative cure like the MSM seem to portray it) and in theory not every one will actually need it to kill the whole thing off from a rampaging pandemic point of view. But the more the merrier.

IGM your post made me both incredibly sad and simultaneously incredibly annoyed. You have my deepest sympathies.

“I want to see my grandchildren”
“But you seem to have made it conditional upon visits for you to pick up a revolver, spin the chamber and force us to watch you insert it into your mouth and pull the trigger until it goes click.”
“So? It’s me not you”

One bloke turned up in full Tuxedo and bow tie.

That is ace.

If you and kids are vaccinated what is the risk to you?

There is no vaccine for kids yet.

despair of their namby pamby offspring who don’t appear to do much of interest, just spending every waking hour on a cycling forum when they don’t even cycle

I'd just love to know how you reach that conclusion about the op from their post..?

 

And you’d be sure to tell your kids they were to blame wouldn’t you…

Seriously?

How do you solve the issue of your kids inadvertantly causing the death of your parents? - "Oh, we just won't tell them. Job jobbed."

**** me. The force is strong in this one.

If someone doesn’t want it, you can’t force them.

True. But you can enforce not visiting them again until they do.

I had this argument when visiting my mum way back when masks first became a thing. "Oh," she says, "you don't need to wear that silly thing when you're in here." Yes, yes I do, otherwise I'm not coming around again, so choose.

She chose. When she was offered the vaccine recently she was on it like a tramp on chips.

I'm so very through mollycoddling people who think they're special. You aren't. Wear a mask, get vaccinated, it's really that simple. Stop acting like a spoilt child because a virus doesn't give a **** about your 'opinions' (and neither do I). "I'm being told to wear a mask, I'm being asked to get vaccinated, woe is me, I'm being oppressed, it's an affront to my civil liberties, sovereignty democracy blue passports!"

Well boo *ing hoo, you should be extremely *ing thankful that masks and vaccines exist, so grow the hell up. "I can't breathe!" **** off you can't, get a grip. It's a bit of cloth, athletes are running races in the things. I live with someone with chronic asthma who carries a rainbow of colour-coded inhalers so that she doesn't die and she can wear them, so what's your 'hidden disability' other than being a selfish cock? (Spoiler: not all that hidden.)

The longer people are going to be wilfully contrary, the longer this bullshit goes on for. And I don't know about anyone else, but I'd quite like to go for a pint this summer.

[My usage of "you" here being "people" generally, I'm not having a pop at anyone on the forum]

Enjoying not being a mod?

Thoroughly agree with your post btw.

brads

There choice. Your choice of how to deal with it, but really ? if they don’t want it I see no reason to stop kids visiting.
Kids aren’t at risk and grandparent has made their choice.

I can't state just how much I disagree with this. The op's situation has some parallels to my own and its something I've posted about in the main corona thread.

The huge difference between my situation and the op's is that my mum was fine with having the jab at 91 years old.

In my mind it's a horrible position to put a child into knowing that they may well be responsible for infecting their nan. You could hide that truth from them, God forbid it should happen but the op will have to live with the knowledge. It's not a burden I'd like to carry.

It is indeed the grandparents choice but she is old enough to know that the choices we make have consequences both for her and those around her.

I sympathise op, it's a terrible predicament to be put in for absolutely no rational reason.

That's my take and I wish you all the best op.

Tbh imo I feel the big push for vaccination will die off soon enough, they have millions that haven't had the second dose, they are already talking about the first lot that have been vaccinated needing boosters by September its never going to happen, its going to end up over 70s and high risk advised to get it along with certain professions and no one else just like the flu jab, im not sure why they are selling as a virus killer it isn't at best its an NHS helping hand, anyway that doesn't solve your issue but it just gets on my tits people making out the vaccine is the cure when it even states on the bloody paperwork you can still catch and pass on covid just the same and you are just less likely to need a hospital

Maybe the way to look at this - if you cant convince them that they should have the vaccine - is to look at it as if they were unable to have the vaccine due to some genuine/medical reason - what would you do in this situation?

I dont know what the answer is, but looking at it like that might take some of the emotion out of the decision.

Don't hold back Cougar, just say what you really think 😁
Top quality rant. Loving it.

I would like the OP's mum to get vaccinated just so we can draw a line under this thread and the ranting anti-anti-vaxxing. I'm happy to have a word with her along those lines. I love that basically everyone here agrees that vaccination is a good thing, but are desperate to find the slimmest of excuses to emphasise it repeatedly.

Serious point: I almost posted several times, as a few others have done, that an attempt at rational persuasion is a better approach than telling someone they're stupid and condemning them to familial isolation, but I couldn't face the likely howls of self-righteous derision. There's some sort of irony there somewhere, I think.

I completely agree with Cougar. I used to drink and natter occasionally with a guy at my local pub (we both have an interest in old Ford's) but he was also obsessed in bat shit conspiracy theories, which I just ignored. Anyway he thought the whole covid pandemic was a government ploy to put the people into a police state and refused to wear a mask (though he had COPD) or wash his hands regularly. Funnily enough he caught covid and died. Idiots will be idiots and the world will be a better place without them.

but I couldn’t face the likely howls of self-righteous derision

Poor you. Feeling better for that?

They’re only likely to get this idea from their parents at 5 & 7.

But 5 & 7 yr olds get older and develop the reasoning to be able to work out for themselves that it really wasn't a great idea to have continued to see granny when she was at risk and that perhaps their mum and dad should have not allowed visits back in 2021.