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Tootall - your post makes no logical sense that I can see. Do you have an explanation?
Hang your head in shame. You are only letting yourself down.
McBoo - the numbers on employment were much closer if you used the same counting methods
How did I know you were going to say that. Do you ever give an inch on any point?
But I dont actually disagree that we shouldnt just try and race to the bottom, however cheap you make yourself, India and China are going to do it cheaper. Luckily we still live a a fantastically inventive country, we can leave India to be a huge back-office and focus on the real value-added.
Make your mind up TJ - I'll put the full context
If we withdrew from the EC I am absolutly certain it would have major effects. [u]Companies that use us for a low tax low regulation manufacturing entry intot eh EU would have no incentive to remain[/u], we would have no right to trade with the EC and I am certain we would lose much trade/
In one breath, you're telling us that being a low tax low regulation is vital to the economy, in the other you say we shouldn't be - the two are diametrically opposed!
hypocritical git!
Why do you go around making stuff up / quoting out of context Zulu? I know you can't help yourself. The insults show how weak your case is.
tootall - your position has no logic that I can see, your refusal to explain it leads me to believe that you cannot explain it.
McBoo -because its the truth?
Yes TJ I remember you writing that at the time too, sounded like hostage to fortune and so it was....oops.
Behave TJ
It seems pretty clear to me that he means that while there are no doubt some incompetent head teachers who use 'recycling' as a way of avoiding the hassle of getting rid of incompetent teachers, there are likely many more for whom the process is simply to clunky and complex to be able to focus on while also trying to do the other things they're trying to keep on top of so they make a decision to follow the accepted norm and recycle rather than wasting lots of time on it. That also obviously gets rid of the incompetent teacher much faster so presumably reducing the complaints from teachers and or increasing grades on which they're measured.
Clare Collins, chair of the National Governors Association, told BBC Breakfast there were "processes in place" to deal with incompetence, but acknowledged they were "too long winded and clunky" and needed to be "quicker, more efficient and more effective".
I did say it as that is what will happen. what I did not say is I believed the low tax low regulation economy was a good thing. It is not.
looks, sees standard of the debate, rejects chance to hurl insults, leaves
Geetee - sorry I simply do not agree. Our "competitive advantage" should be not at the cost of adequate workers rights and is at least as likely to cost us jobs and investment as it does to gain them. there are several instances of plants being closed in the UK and kept open in the rest of europe because its cheaper to close the plants here.
I do agree TJ and you're right, there are plenty of cases where redundancies have been executed here because they are easier to do than in France or Germany.
I think we would agree with each other if we said that the current laws seem to offer a good balance; I wouldn't want to see it shift either way. Maybe you would like to see more protection for employees?
The competitive advantage I'm referring to, as an example, is that 'liquidity' in the employment market, gives rise to constant exchange of people and thus ideas. That stimulates radical innovation; new ideas, new inventions, break throughs in technology and products.
In Germany for example, the largely static workforce means that you don't get this cross polination of ideas and therefore you don't get radical innovation.
What you do get is exemplary process refinement. The guys building the VW Golf now have been doing it for 25 years; what they don't know about how to refine the manufacturing process isn't worth worrying about.
So two different systems, two different examples of their advantages and disadvantages. Niether is better, they're just different.
If you tried to recreate German labour laws in the UK, you'd potentially shut off that free flow of people and ideas. It's more nuanced than that obviously, and far more complex, but that's the general idea.
Should read "Incompetant head teachers recycle incompetant teachers"
Let me correct that for you, as it should not read that at all:
Should read "Incompetent head teachers recycle incompetent teachers"
I really hope you get it now. You do get it now, don't you?
oh, looks like I read rather too much into it 😳
TJ.....I just checked with my Head of MacroEconomic Research
"Remind him that between 2000 and 2007 German and French unemployment never got below 8%. In Britain it never got above 6%."
TJ, I've quoted nothing out of context. in fact, you even followed it up with
So its either in and use our influence to get decision made our way or out, have no influence, lose manufacture and trade.
contrasted with
I did say it as that is what will happen. what I did not say is I believed the low tax low regulation economy was a good thing. It is not.
So, are you telling us now that losing manufacture and trade would be a good thing? if it is such a bad thing, why were you so keen to tell us that it would be a disaster? You made no mention whatsoever of being a low tax, low regulation economy being a bad thing on the thread about Europe, you're only flip flopping around now because you know that you've dug a hole for yourself.
And, frankly, trying to use the "ooh, he insulted me" defence, given your treatment of people on the thread discussing the insulation in your flat, is bloody hilarious!
And, frankly, trying to use the "ooh, he insulted me" defence, given your treatment of people on the thread discussing the insulation in your flat, is bloody hilarious!
Quite.
Howver, it seems pretty clear that his comment isn't a contradiction. The UK is low tax. TJ never said that he thought that was a good thing, just that in the overall balance that is part of what helps us get investment at present and based on the current economic setup of us and our competitor EU countries. In his ideal world no doubt we'd be higher tax but you can't instantly change from one to the other.
TJ.....I just checked with my Head of MacroEconomic Research"Remind him that between 2000 and 2007 German and French unemployment never got below 8%. In Britain it never got above 6%."
Methodology of collecting figures? My understanding is when you use the internationally recognised figures the difference is much less than the double you claim it to be.
Germany now has lower unemployment than we do.
Zulu - you are insinuating I said the low tax / low regulation economy was a good thing when I did not say that.
Its frankly typical of you to distort things in this way and and why your posts are widely ignored - a policy I shall return to
Edit - thank you clubber
Zulu - you are insinuating I said the low tax / low regulation economy was a good thing when I did not say that.
well, you clearly stated that [b]NOT[/b] being one was a bad thing
its frankly typical of you to distort things in this way and and why your posts are widely ignored - a policy I shall return to
Ah, the La,La,La variant of the Edinburgh defence,
well, you clearly stated that NOT being one was a bad thing
Yes, but in context, that's only about the here and now, not about the long term. As I said, you can't instantly go from one to the other.
Do you think he understood my explaination, or is he fervently googling his main arguement?
well, you clearly stated that NOT being one was a bad thing
Where? 🙄
I think/hope he got it 😀
tootall - what explanation? I did not see one
If you tried to recreate German labour laws in the UK, you'd potentially shut off that free flow of people and ideas.
Is that shorthand for **** over less people than currently and have a really successful economy by comparision, (one which you may be forgiven for forgetting has managed to reabsorb the Eastern German state and be the powerhouse of the eurozone in recent times?)
Where? 🙄
Sorry TJ - I thought you were ignoring my posts... 😆
I think/hope he got it
tootall - what explanation? I did not see one
WHHHOOOOOOSSSHHHHHH
😥
mcboo - Member"Remind him that between 2000 and 2007 German and French unemployment never got below 8%. In Britain it never got above 6%."
I'm curious... During those years, if anyone had said "Look, our unemployment figures are lower than Germany", what are the odds you'd have responded "But that's only because the government have fudged the figures and reclassified unemployed people as unable to work and put them on invalidity etc etc"
think/hope he got ittootall - what explanation? I did not see one
WHHHOOOOOOSSSHHHHHH
as far as I can see Tootall you havent said anything yet, now maybe I am really stupid so would you do the decent thing and let me (and I believe TJ) in on what it is your trying to express.
Now, who would you believe when it comes to the analysis/collation of figures such as unemployment rates, a "Head of Macro Economic Research" or a "Medical Professional"?
Staggering sometimes, isn't it?
TooTall - MemberShould read "Incompetant head teachers recycle incompet [b][u]A[/u][/b] nt teachers"
Let me correct that for you, as it should not read that at all:
Should read "Incompetent head teachers recycle incompetent teachers"
I really hope you get it now. You do get it now, don't you?
HTH
Does anyone actually have a problem with sacking of lazy workers? I sure don't. Regardless of the report content and whether they intend to act on it, I'd hope that anyone not pulling their weight were sacked rather than allowed to linger on being worse than not present.
right, so the point can still stand but I spelt a word wrong? Glad you wasted so much time on it.
Ta clubber 😳
coffeeking - MemberDoes anyone actually have a problem with sacking of lazy workers? I sure don't. Regardless of the report content and whether they intend to act on it, I'd hope that anyone not pulling their weight were sacked rather than allowed to linger on being worse than not present.
Nope - so long as it is done fairly
Does anyone actually know anything about Free Schools and Academies and getting rid of crap teachers? Are there different rules, I know I worked at an Academy myself so should know, but well it never came up.
coffeeking +1
Should lazy workers not pulling their own weight be allowed to cling to a job ....or should they be sacked. Discuss.
Does anyone actually have a problem with sacking of lazy workers? I sure don't. Regardless of the report content and whether they intend to act on it, I'd hope that anyone not pulling their weight were sacked rather than allowed to linger on being worse than not present.
No, but they can already be dealt with currently by any competent manager/hr department.
Does anyone actually know anything about Free Schools and Academies and getting rid of crap teachers?
As I understand it the teachers in a free school or Academy are employed by the school itself and answerable to the headteacher and the governors. In a regular comprehensive they are employed by the LEA. LEAs havent been exactly rigorous in their HR policies which is why so few bad teachers have been properly held to account.
right, so the point can still stand but I spelt a word wrong? Glad you wasted so much time on it.
You are a teacher aren't you?
You are a teacher aren't you?
Yes, whats your point caller?
Mcboo, so that means there's no difference at all doesnt it, I mean in reality? Head teachers and governors do the hiring and firing at normal schools, LEA's just hold the purse strings. Sounds to me like another one of Gove's new powers for teachers to disipline kids thing that was arriving in September. I for one have not been given any new powers, I was hoping for a cattle prod. I bet academies and free schools have to go thru' the competancy procedure the same as a normal school.
[i]heres some more spelling and grammar to correct Tootall[/i]
TandemJeremy - Member
MSP - qualifying period for tribunals went from 2 yrs to one in the late 90s.
However our employment legislation offers us much much less protection that the rest of europe - hence when one multinational wanted to close a plant they closed the british one a it was much cheaper to close than the German one
Exactly that has been my gripe for years and was hoping this would include employees the same writes
here.
But the Torys ruled this one out then.
Does anyone actually have a problem with sacking of lazy workers? I sure don't. Regardless of the report content and whether they intend to act on it, I'd hope that anyone not pulling their weight were sacked rather than allowed to linger on being worse than not present.
Theres such things in place already, just blame your managers not sorting it out.
The more you allow the harder you will be able to take such actions.
Mcboo, so that means there's no difference at all doesnt it, I mean in reality? Head teachers and governors do the hiring and firing at normal schools, LEA's just hold the purse strings
On the face of it yes, what's the difference? LEAs (and here we do get into a bit of conjecture) are generally staffed by professional educationalists, so by their nature tend to take a more indulgent view towards teaching standards. If you believe the reformers the single biggest obstacle to driving up standards in schools is driving up standards of teaching. That means applying pressure to failing staff and I'm afraid pushing out those who shouldnt be in the classroom. LEAs just havent been fulfilling that side of the bargain......18 teachers sacked for failure in 40 years tells it's own story.
In Germany for example, the largely static workforce means that you don't get this cross polination of ideas and therefore you don't get radical innovation.
Good points but some of the reasons the Germans don't travel is the pay is very good
and working conditions are excellent.
In Germany for example, the largely static workforce means that you don't get this cross polination of ideas and therefore you don't get radical innovation.
Yet they seem to patent so many more ideas than the UK, if I were a more sceptical person, I might think that statement was just made up nonsense.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_patents#Top_10_countries_in_2007
Think your forgotten we don't manufacture much here now
and the working class workforce now stack shelves at Tesco and work in MCDonalds
and other such fast food places, serving waste busting food or call centres.
18 teachers sacked for failure in 40 years tells it's own story
honest question and I dont know the answer but are you getting confused by the numbers being stopped from teaching rather than sacked. As said most will go well before they are pushed.
grantway - MemberThink your forgotten we don't manufacture much here now
Myth... Mostly perpetuated by looking at manufacturing as a % of GDP, or as % of employment, rather than looking at it in isolation. Obviously if other industries grow faster, that causes the % of GDP to fall... And as mechanisation increases, numbers of people employed fall. Neither means that manufacturing is falling.
But if you look at it in terms of production and in terms of value, manufacturing was at a record high in 2007, and has grown steadily in the last 50 years. In 2006, we were the 6th biggest manufacturer in the world, graded by value of output.
something a little more up to date:
[url= http://www.****/news/article-1288497/China-worlds-manufacturer-ending-Americas-110-year-reign.html ]
[/url]Britain now ranks seventh the world's manufacturing league with economists warning that position is under threat from emerging nations.
What such figures don't show is where all the money actually goes. A lot of it ends up in offshore bank accounts, and a lot of tax isn't paid...
The UK is slipping downwards and will continue to do so. It's at the end of it's period of economic dominance and will be soon be overtaken by emerging economic powers like Brazil and India.
The UK was responsible for 2.6 per cent of world manufacturing output, down from 5.5 per cent in 1980.
That's less than half what it was 30 years ago. And I don't really see much chance of that slide being reversed, tbh...
honest question and I dont know the answer but are you getting confused by the numbers being stopped from teaching rather than sacked. As said most will go well before they are pushed.
Sure, but thats true of any line of work, people get a quiet tap on the shoulder and off they quietly go. But it can't be particularly the case with state teaching.....can it?
Yet they seem to patent so many more ideas than the UK, if I were a more sceptical person, I might think that statement was just made up nonsense.
It's actually a statement based on patent data, rather ironically. If you study the patent data over the last 20 years, as I rather sadly, have done, you'll find that the US and UK registered companies tend to file patents covering radical innovation, i.e. new inventions, whereas German companies tend to file patents focused on process refinement.
I can point you in the direction of the literature if you like? Have a look at 'Divergent Capitalisms; The Social Structuring and Change of Business Systems' Whitley 1998.
Sure, but thats true of any line of work, people get a quiet tap on the shoulder and off they quietly go. But it can't be particularly the case with state teaching.....can it?
depends if they have not been Tupe over to a private sector
where you keep your terms and conditions up to One year
and you will loose your years service after that too.
Myth...
Would you all like to know another myth?
The world is no more globalised now, relatively speaking, than it was at the turn of the 19th Century.
This is based on the percentages of GDP generated by foreign trade, for the developed nations at the time. That level is fractionally higher now than it was before, but not significantly.
Globalisation is real, but it's been real for the last 100 years or so.
But it can't be particularly the case with state teaching.....can it?
Oh yes, happens all the time. It involves being monitored all the time, having books checked all the time. I will freely admit I dont do what my school says is the minimum of marking, apart from anything else it would take me about 20 hrs a week. No one ever seems to get too bothered by it though. If your a rubbish teacher these things are checked regularly.
What such figures don't show is where all the money actually goes. A lot of it ends up in offshore bank accounts, and a lot of tax isn't paid...
The UK is slipping downwards and will continue to do so. It's at the end of it's period of economic dominance and will be soon be overtaken by emerging economic powers like Brazil and India.
The UK was responsible for 2.6 per cent of world manufacturing output, down from 5.5 per cent in 1980.
That's less than half what it was 30 years ago. And I don't really see much chance of that slide being reversed, tbh...
Same thing with Australia I know a lot of the Kitchen/furniture makers have most if not all there
furniture made in China
most of my repetitive sized furniture is made around Manchester and
we just concentrate on making the special sized cabinets now.
Its cost affective and i am also keeping people employed within this country.
Elfinsafety - MemberThat's less than half what it was 30 years ago. And I don't really see much chance of that slide being reversed, tbh...
Oh Elfin... You know perfectly well that none of what you posted points to a reduction in UK manufacturing- only to a greater increase elsewhere. And frankly, for a country our size to be "only" the 7th biggest manufacturer in the world, is not something to be pessimistic about.
You know perfectly well that none of what you posted points to a reduction in UK manufacturing
No, but what does point to a reduction in UK manufacturing is a reduction in the number of factories and workshops and that...
And a sizeable chunk of our manufacturing output is weapons and weapon systems. Oh look we've bin involved in lots of wars in the last 20 years...
Fact is this country is declining as an economic power, and this decline will continue. Only the most stubborn of ostriches can fail to see this.
Best all start learning Chinese, then....
Thing is Northwind I here you regarding numbers
But there has been a huge reduction in Large manufacturing
including the midi sized factories or workshops that simply
get it made out of this country !
Its ok quoting numbers all day but just how much of that 7th largest manufacturing
is actually made within our waters?
Most of it is brought in made outside and sold off
I would say the North of England is around the last areas of larger manufacturing
A guy I know buys his furniture in from Italy and takes the stickers off and puts his own brand on
and has two guys touching up damaged items and then sending out.
Elfinsafety - MemberNo, but what does point to a reduction in UK manufacturing is a reduction in the number of factories and workshops and that...
<bangs head against wall> Your perception is false. Rose by .2% in the last quarter, is predicted to fall by .5% in the next, but with an overall [i]growth[/i] of 1.5% for the year. Despite the fact that as you may have heard, there's a recession on.
If your complaint is that we're not outproducing China, then that's inevitable- but don't pretend our manufacturing sector is in decline. The world's largest countries produce more than us, shock horror.
grantway - MemberIts ok quoting numbers all day but just how much of that 7th largest manufacturingis actually made within our waters?
100% of it. That's why it's called UK manufacturing.
No, but they can already be dealt with currently by any competent manager/hr department.
That's fair enough, I'm not up on employment law, but I'm under the impression it's fairly hard to sack someone even with good grounds, hence managers jumping through hoops to prove fault etc.
<bangs head against wall>
Careful, you'll hurt youself if you keep doing that.
Your perception is false
No it's not. It's a fact that there is less manufacturing in this country than there was 30 years ago. There are significantly less factories ffs! Have you not noticed?
No point in quoting massaged engineered figures created by agencies with a vested interest in making positive noises; the truth is the UK's manufacturing base and economy is in decline, and has bin for ages.
don't pretend our manufacturing sector is in decline
[url= http://tutor2u.net/economics/content/essentials/manufacturing_industry_in_uk.htm ]I'm not pretending, it's a fact.[/url]
No, but they can already be dealt with currently by any competent manager/hr department.That's fair enough, I'm not up on employment law, but I'm under the impression it's fairly hard to sack someone even with good grounds, hence managers jumping through hoops to prove fault etc.
Nope - its straightforward if you have good grounds. Even if its a question of competence is straightforward
Elfinsafety - MemberNo it's not. It's a fact that there is less manufacturing in this country than there was 30 years ago. There are significantly less factories ffs! Have you not noticed?
I think you know fine well what a straw man that is. Also it's interesting that your link doesn't show what you claim it does- were you just hoping I wouldn't look 😆
What it does show, had you bothered to actually look through it, is that the manufacturing portion of our GDP has declined, employment in manufacturing has declined, and the export of manufactured goods has declined.
I'd say that indicates a decline in manufacturing, woon't you?
[url= http://www.historyandpolicy.org/opinion/opinion_07.html ]
[/url]All developed economies have experienced a reduction in the contribution of manufacturing to GDP over the past forty years, but its fall here has been more rapid than in any comparable economy. In 1979 manufacturing accounted for almost [b]30[/b] per cent of the UK's GDP. Rapid decline followed, as large parts of British industry closed down while the financial and service sectors expanded. By 2007 just [b]14[/b] per cent of the GDP could be attributed to manufacturing.
Oh come [i]on[/i] now, we're back to my first post here. And I know you're not stupid, so I assume you're doing it deliberately.
1) "The manufacturing portion of our GDP has declined"- manufacturing as a proportion of GDP has declined only because other sectors have grown faster. If GDP grows faster than manufacturing, then manufacturing falls as a percentage of GDP, this doesn't mean manufacturing has fallen. Just maths.
2) "Employment in manufacturing has declined"- Productivity increases, and changes in the type of products made. If you replace 10 men operating lathes manually, with one CNC machine with 1 man running it, does that mean manufacturing has fallen by 90%? Of course not. Manufacturing is measured by output not by manpower.
3) "Export of manufactured goods has declined"- your link says no such thing, go look. Don't confuse the balance of trade with the scale of exports- imports have increased faster than exports, but from 98 to 08 goods exports increased 78% (in 2009 they dropped, but by almost exactly the world mean)
I have no idea why people are so keen to run UK manufacturing down. It's impossible for it to compete on even terms with China and the USA, that's a given but to put down what it achieves is just plain strange.
Fine post, Northwind
got to say, it looks like you've been comprehensively pwnd there elf. 😉