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kimbers
SubscriberSo Johnson said we can’t participate in the EU scheme because we’re out of the EU, even tho EU said we can still be part of it.
While Hancock says we didn’t because we missed the deadline?
Brexit pigheadedness or just incompetence?
Why not both? But one of them's lying and this really isn't the best time for the health secretary and prime minister to be talking shite.
Sorry but I get very suspicious about altruistic businessmen, wonder if the price for making these machines apart from publicity is a peerage. Lord Suckandblow anyone?
Even the torygraph not impressed
And they think Dysons statement was a PR stunt
A neighbour has been taken to hospital with the corona virus, he has been put on one of the new dyson ventilators, latest update is he is picking up well!
That sucks drac
pistonbroke - FFS, I don't give a flying one whose company is involved in supplying ventilators or what their motives might be.
Have a word with yourself and think twice before your next post.
Tbf Dyson is using it as a OR stunt, ventilators are needed now, we could well be past the peak before they are ready
So Frank, you get angry when I comment that major tory doner Dyson gets an order for 10,000 machines which won't be delivered in time when existing manufacturers don't even get a reply to their offer of help. Did you not see Newsnight yesterday?
pisthonbroke - not angry, just frustrated by ill-informed and unhelpful comments.
Saw newsnight.
You refer to existing manufacturers not receiving replies to their offers of help; did you not read gov comments attributing this to 'communication problem'?
I don't know who is being truthful; do you?
To re-iterate....I don't care where the ventilators come from, what motives may be driving business owners nor am I interested (at present) in their political affiliation.
Kimbers - I assume you mean PR stunt; the fact that ventilators are needed now but we don't have them is entirely down to the gov - it has absolutely nothing to do with Dyson.
So, let's agree that we all want every bit of support we can get - from any source - and leave any other considerations for a later date.
That would be a mature attitude.
I agree the call for these ventilators should have been made 2 months ago rather than 2 weeks ago
I said was a PR stunt because Dyson announced that government would be taking them & then government said they wouldn't because design hadn't been tested yet (see torygraph article up there ☝
Wait a minute
Last week Hancock said they had seen the email?
https://twitter.com/deirdreheenan/status/1243273562481397772?s=20
I don’t care where the ventilators come from
But, if you’ve been following what’s happening in countries a bit ahead of us when it comes to spread, you absolutely should care when they become available, yes? If the government are failing to use channels available to them to get the kit in time, and looking at other slower routes for political reasons, then you can see why that could be an issue worthy of comment? Yes?
Anyway, lots of channels are under investigation, Dyson are not that only fruit, but some obvious ones seem to be being avoided… for Brexit grandstanding reasons, or too narrow a focus, who knows… but it is worrying.
the fact that ventilators are needed now but we don’t have them is entirely down to the gov – it has absolutely nothing to do with Dyson.
So, let’s agree that we all want every bit of support we can get – from any source – and leave any other considerations for a later date.
Agree with all this.
So we are in the EU scheme as well now then.
Late on Thursday, the government said it would also join an EU scheme to procure ventilators, having initially said it would not take part because it had missed an invitation to do so owing to a “communication problem”.
And this \/\/\/
you absolutely should care when they become available, yes?
Seems pretty clear to me existing manufacturers will have a limit of daily production totals. Doesn’t matter if you get 30k ordered if the delivery date is too late.
Surely having UK suppliers as the main source would be preferable to joining an EU scheme when EU countries are in a far worse and escalating state than we are, where every ventilator they can possibly get their hands on would be essential? The Dyson models are not only going to UK hospitals, he’s producing more for the EU as well.
Doesn’t matter if you get 30k ordered if the delivery date is too late.
So, you’re privy to inside info about how long this situation is going to last?
Been tweeting dTrump, then?
Surely having UK suppliers as the main source would be preferable to joining an EU scheme
surely we could do both
and the fact that the government have spent the last few days lying about being in the scheme or not makes it all look like a bollox PR stunt for the easily led
https://twitter.com/b32847703/status/1243276705474711564
I would hope that everyone is able to recall that as of January this year the NHS had 40'000 nurse vacancies.
Build as many vents as you can, getting people capable of using them is the real issue...
kimbers - the weyaye man twitter post, without more detail, cannot be verified and I would not rely on it.
There has been a minimum spec developed for this crisis. Its a much less sophisticated machine than the usual stuff but its the minimum useful spec
Thanks for that, TJ. As an engineer with not much medical knowledge, it's really interesting to see how pragmatic it is, I'm pleased to see somebody in Government understands risk. It also shows just how complex a ventilator is, even a stop-gap simplified one.
10,000 untested ventilators ordered from a Tory voting, leave backing, Johnson supporter .... looks like we have a cronyvirus outbreak.
So, you’re privy to inside info about how long this situation is going to last?
Been tweeting dTrump, then?
Obviously not and I’d not claimed to either. What I was getting at is that the existing manufacturing capacity is already at unprecedented levels of demand (someone might correct me on that?). So any lead time for delivery is likely to longer even with accelerated manufacturing. Unless something fairly dramatic is done.
Surely having UK suppliers as the main source would be preferable to joining an EU scheme when EU countries are in a far worse and escalating state than we are, where every ventilator they can possibly get their hands on would be essential? The Dyson models are not only going to UK hospitals, he’s producing more for the EU as well.
Although I agree with the rest of your post. Except to say that I ‘think’* it’s preferable to try all procurement options.
*in a strictly unqualified “thinking” way, just to be clear
That a Twitter post, any evidence it’s real? Or at least giving an honest view?
10,000 untested ventilators ordered from a Tory voting, leave backing, Johnson supporter …. looks like we have a cronyvirus outbreak.
Good one 🙂
Not sure we actually need jokes 🙁
The whole thing has a sort of weird ealing comedy feel to it.
Ignore impending disaster on other side of world despite warnings,refuse to accept an offer for help,then come up with an excuse for it as only a complete and utter ****wit wouldn’t accept,place order for non existing kit by a renowned vacuum maker whilst ignoring current manufacturers then sorta say they haven’t placed an order then promptly all get infected.
Course to not panic you say it’s all going as planned 🙂
That a Twitter post, any evidence it’s real? Or at least giving an honest view?
FT has spoken to several companies who are saying exactly the same thing
https://www.ft.com/content/f9051f66-cfbe-4b36-848e-3980225ae542
Personally I think that the government want to be seen to be acting & reassuring people, so they go for these big headline grabbing fibs.
Matt Hancock has been caught out lying about the EU scheme & working with supermarkets recently.
It looks to me that they are overwhelmed & in chaos, but trying to hide it.
I genuinely believe that the government have got so used to lying that they do it automatically, there's no opposition to hold them to account & politics has become a culture war, you can lie as much as you like & your voters don't care. Even in a crisis like this.
Yeah Johnson was lying
https://twitter.com/seanwhelanRTE/status/1243516287931875329?s=19
And the offer is still open
https://twitter.com/LaylaMoran/status/1243641703287918593?s=19
Surely having UK suppliers as the main source would be preferable to joining an EU scheme when EU countries are in a far
Jesus. We are all in the shit here and need to be working together on this instead of competing for or hoarding resources.
This is also going to tear through poorer countries, so if we build capacity and supplies now then it's going to be a good thing, because they are going to need all the help we can give.
So Johnson said we can’t participate in the EU scheme because we’re out of the EU, even tho EU said we can still be part of it.
While Hancock says we didn’t because we missed the deadline?
Brexit pigheadedness or just incompetence?
Criminal incompetence from Tory ministers, putting Brexit “get it done” stupidity in to practice on a grand scale.
Only time will tell if it has cost additional lives. Hanging on to the coat-tails of a joint procurement exercise had to be the right thing to do in the formal transitional period but no, get your mate to scratch build one. You really couldn’t make it up.
GTech have been told to stand down by the way. Their kit is not required...
Oh, maybe this is the fix ...
piemonster
Subscriber
Thank you @kimbersBehind a pay wall but thank you regardless
if u sregister up you get some free articles
I’m really unclear why HMG hasn’t just encouraged precision manufacturers to license existing designs that we know work.
Looking at the spec, I wouldn’t describe a pressure support mode as optional and that’s the bit that’s hardest to make work.
Boris now the first PM to act upon the guidelines of a certain Mr Heath Robinson...
I don’t know who is being truthful; do you?
Based on a long history of past behaviour, unless he has completely changed character in the last few weeks, we can assume Boris Johnson is lying.
If you're serious about delivering ventilators that keep people alive, you throw money at existing suppliers to help them ramp up production, and engage Chinese manufacturers who have the skills, the complete supply chain and proven ability to retool and manufacture products fast. You don't announce a publicity stunt with Dyson and pin your hopes on untested, novel designs when you need reliale life saving equipment now.
The lies from ****t_Hancock are just the tip of the iceberg. The govt response has been sloppy from the start. Why does anyone trust them?
The lies from ****t_Hancock are just the tip of the iceberg.
I'm taking his reporting of being infected with a large pinch of salt. He's that unreliable.
Oh, and if you're going to lie about being invited to join an EU group don't publicise it on Question Time!
I read the post by grtdkad^^^ about gov telling Gtech to stand down with incredulity.
Does anyone know more about this? Specifically, why?
Another article about procurement of ventilators with a focus on profiteering and unreliable product performance https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-52074862
Has anyone confirmed that the Gtech ventilator would actually be effective for supporting Coronavirus patients?
Unlikely that gov would have said 'yes' without being sure the GTech ventilator would work.
Matt Hancock is a proven mendacious liar
I suspect your average snake has a more stringent moral code than he does
Even I don't think he'd make this up.
If it wasn't for the fact that Raab is next in line, having Johnson & Hancock away from organisation might well be better for the country during this crisis
HM Gov response
They know there will be a public inquiry at some point and the 30 year rule will expose docs regardless. That's unless the civil servants decide to lose them as they did for the blood scandal
Unlikely that gov would have said ‘yes’ without being sure the GTech ventilator would work.
According to Gtech's own website, they were asked if they could help, and have submitted two ventilators for assessment.
So, has anyone actually confirmed their design would be effective in supporting Coronavirus patients?
As others have said why the hell are they asking for new manufacturers to design something they have no experience in from scratch. Licence a known design a uses Dyson etc to manage production through their supply chain.
I worked at Dyson in the past, the people at a lower kevel are generally great but with James and the higher levels of management it's all about PR. James is very tight with the Tories.
It looks like this is the approach the Americans are taking - GM and Ford are licensing existing designs.
There are probably quite a few issues with licensing an existing design:
1. Willingness of IP rights holders to do so and protracted negotiations periods that could end in failure to agree
2. Availability of the required parts in local supply chains
3. Inability to swap parts to overcome
Supply chain issues (ref to likely terms imposed by IP rights holder)
4. Complexity of assembly and the need for specialist equipment.
From what’s been written, it seems the Gtech and Dyson efforts have sought to use readily available parts that can be assembled on simple production lines.
It’s pretty disappointing to see the vitriol on this thread - not least when other countries are taking the same approach (most recently Spain) and some successes have already been achieved with 3D printing e.g. connectors for Decathlon Dive masks to connect to existing hospital oxygen supplies.
The latter has already saved lives but I’m sure would nonetheless receive the same cynicism and conspiracy theory treatment from some of the armchair experts on here.
I don't think anyone has said that taking ventilators from Dyson or Gtech is bad, anything will do
The problem is that the government seem to have gone for the headline grabbing Dyson PR stunt
Whilst snubbing the EU (coz Brexit)
-And then proceeded to lie about it
AND UK manufacturers who had ventilators ready to be sold, but have now been snapped up by other countries
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/ventilator-crunch-looms-after-snubbing-eu-action-6s7tg3vnw?
The government has been accused of missing out on up to 25,000 life-saving ventilators by failing to respond to an offer from a British firm.
Direct Access, a company based in Nantwich, Cheshire, and supplier to the NHS, contacted the health department early last week after acquiring an initial 5,000 ventilators. It followed up two days later with an additional offer of 50 million coronavirus testing kits.
But its email went unanswered, despite further appeals, and the ventilators were snapped up by other countries.
So, they chose to make cash & flog them overseas? Easy to blame the govt, but that’s not exactly a patriotic response.
1. Willingness of IP rights holders to do so and protracted negotiations periods that could end in failure to agree
2. Availability of the required parts in local supply chains
3. Inability to swap parts to overcome
Supply chain issues (ref to likely terms imposed by IP rights holder)
4. Complexity of assembly and the need for specialist equipment.
Overcoming IP issues doesn't sound like the biggest challenge in a crisis situation. Pay the rights holders to grant rights to other manufacturers for a limited period and I bet you can overcome that.
Parts, supply chain, assembly? You have to go to the people that have all that in one place, and who are starting to come back on line: China. Licensing a design also doesn't necessarily have to mean copying it exactly. There could well be cosmetic or supplementary features on an existing ventilator that could be dropped to speed up production without compromising the core functionality.
There is undoubtedly a lot of ingenious thinking and hard work going on here, but what evidence is there that these novel ventilator designs will actually be effective in treating patients? The Guardian is reporting a 50% survival rate for patients in intensive care, with a doctor quoted as questioning whether ventilation is actually effective for the most seriously affected patients.
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2020/mar/28/coronavirus-intensive-care-uk-patients-50-per-cent-survival-rate
We should be trying to save as many people as possible, but if people are as ill as that, it sounds like they need serious, professional ventilation. The novel designs might be useful in less serious cases, but surely the priority has to be ramping up production of proven designs. The publicity around Dyson's "ventilators" sounds like spin.
So, they chose to make cash & flog them overseas?
No. The company in question appears to be a broker. Sourced the kit from the UAE and offered to the govt.
dantsw13
MemberSo, they chose to make cash & flog them overseas? Easy to blame the govt, but that’s not exactly a patriotic response.
So they should have patriotically not sold them to the UK government because they didn't respond, and also not to anyone else?
The Guardian is reporting a 50% survival rate for patients in intensive care
Only going by patients that have (at the time the audit was conducted)left IC. The survival rate needs to be all patients from a specific timeframe once they have all left IC by recovering or not.
At least that’s how I read that article. Looks like click bait tbh.
It’s pretty disappointing to see the vitriol on this thread – not least when other countries are taking the same approach (most recently Spain
The vitriol is squarely aimed the the government who seem to be playing games with people’s lives or are incompetent.
Saying yes to the EU was a no brainier for any sane person.
Trying to order a bulk supply of unicorn ventilators from a vacuum company when you have existing manufacturers seems an odd decision.
Don’t forget the the eu offer was not just about ventilators it was also about PPE, that is desperately wanted.
Only going by patients that have (at the time the audit was conducted)left IC. The survival rate needs to be all patients from a specific timeframe once they have all left IC by recovering or not.
At least that’s how I read that article. Looks like click bait tbh.
Fair enough, so the survival rate for intensive care Coronavirus patients who have left IC so far is 50%, and that rate may change as more patients are treated. I think we can still agree the numbers to date are a cause for concern. It doesn't look like a situation where you would start by trying to source large numbers of newly invented, unproven ventilators. Wouldn't you put your efforts into increasing production of proven, reliable kit?
Full report here if anyone wants to read it:
https://www.icnarc.org/DataServices/Attachments/Download/b5f59585-5870-ea11-9124-00505601089b
A spokesman for the world’s largest producer of ventilators was quoted yesterday as saying they had already doubled production but the order backlog was 10 x their production capacity - with lead times of 4-6 months.
We can all argue about whether Dyson etc is a good thing but the reality is there are no ventilators in production now available for sale and supply to markets in the next couple of weeks.
So we can wait and watch people die, or try a dual strategy which is what the government has done - production at the only U.K. based ventilator manufacturer has already been increased by 50% but they typically only make 2 a day.
And they don’t make intensive care ventilators, only anaesthetic vents - it’s far easier to ventilate normal lungs in a mandatory mode in an anaesthetised patient than it is to ventilate people weaning from sedation in a spontaneously-triggered pressure support mode.
Don’t forget the the eu offer was not just about ventilators it was also about PPE, that is desperately wanted.
The first round was only PPE (and testing kits), ventilators are for later rounds, due to the lag in ramping up production that others have mentioned. The first round resulted in MORE PPE being sourced than the target given. Which can only be a good thing for our friends working on the front line in our neighbouring countries. Hopefully we’ll be fully involved in all subsequent rounds from now on…
Dumb question. Do those Dyson / Gtech ventilators re-circ the patients 'out' breath , then add a squirt of pure O2 as a top up for the squeeze bag to blow? Looking at the pics I cant see how the exhale is exhausted but my brain is saying it has to because of CO build up
And why isnt the push rod glued to the bag to blow and suck, maybe not robust enough
Beer engine in a pub would work , special one valves called aspirators could be used to dribble o2 in as well, and lets face it there are thousands of them doing nothing. Don't know if the std half pint pull would be sufficient airflow though , probably not
with a doctor quoted as questioning whether ventilation is actually effective for the most seriously affected patients.
I'm sold. Evidence-based medicine be damned eh? He has a point, but to be honest, to quote every paper ever written, "further study is required...".
What ventilators for Africa? That's all. If the G-tech machine meets the appropriate technical requirements, they'll have no issues finding people who may have a need. It wasn't the Spitfire that won the war.
Anaesthetic ventilators usually work on a circle system, so they recirculate the gas in the circuit, passing it through a soda lime canister to absorb the CO2. A certain amount of gas, usually <1 l/min at steady state, is fed into the circuit (usually air/O2/anaesthetic agent) and then the excess spills out through a valve into the scavenging system
ITU ventilators are slightly different, there’s a one-way flow through the system with much greater flows, part of which is called the bias flow which prevents re-breathing of CO2. The inspiratory pressure is usually generated by a turbine rather than a bag-in-bottle or a piston (which are commonly used in anaesthetic ventilator circuits) because a turbine can react faster to augment a breath the patient is trying to take; commonly ITU patients are spontaneously triggering the vent whereas anaesthetised patients are on mandatory modes.
The other major headache is providing the necessary gas pipeline flows for additional ventilators, not to mention stopping the VIE freezing solid.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-52087002
University College London engineers worked with clinicians at UCLH and Mercedes Formula One to build the device, which delivers oxygen to the lungs without needing a ventilator.
Continuous Positive Airway Pressure (CPAP) devices are already used in hospitals but are in short supply.
China and Italy used them to help Covid-19 patients.
Forty of the new devices have been delivered to ULCH and to three other London hospitals. If trials go well, up to 1,000 of the CPAP machines can be produced per day by Mercedes-AMG-HPP, beginning in a week's time.
I’m assuming these are the equivalent of the devices in Italy where patients have a plastic “bubble”?
The Mercedes F1 device received regulatory approval today with first deliveries scheduled next week.
Here’s a piece from the German press on one of their ventilator manufacturers - Germany ordered “early” but even so there still can’t get enough of them.
From that article
The U.S. authorities have made a request for 100,000 ventilators. That likely exceeds the annual production capacity of all manufacturers.
Good luck relying on existing manufacturers.
FT is reporting orders for 5,000 Smith portable and 5,000 Penlon theater machines from Ventilator Challenge UK and another 10,000 critical care from Babcock/Drager.
10000 Dräger Evitas would be very good news.
10000 Smiths less so.
Can you quote it as it’s paywalled.
The Guardian has a substantially similar story without a paywall.
The missing bit is:
"The government confirmed on Monday it had also issued a letter of intent for another 10,000 machines to defence contractor Babcock International, which is working with Germany’s Drägerwerk, one of the biggest ventilator makers, on a critical care device. This design is also subject to regulatory sign-off. Babcock and Drägerwerk declined to comment."
Some other sources, not paywalled.
How are we doing with these ventilators? Did Dyson get approval?
My son works for Babcock and I am sure he said they are ready to start delivering.
Interesting
Yes. But look what is happening in the US as States and the Government compete for resources.
Meanwhile in India they have reverse engineered a simpler ventilator from 20+ years ago, which while only 'nearly as good' as a modern ventilator, uses less than 150 parts, all from existing supply chains outwith medical, and claim that subject to testing they could deliver thousands of the things within a week, and plan on open source the details.
That Scottish article smacks of playing nationalist tunes.
We produce a key component for many of these ventilator manufacturers. We’ve taken 4 years worth of orders in 2 weeks & still getting enquiries for multiples of 10k units from all over the world. Desperately trying to quadruple production. We are working around the clock trying to keep up & upscale at the same time. Never known pressure like it. The amount of effort & selfless contribution being shown by the manufacturing industry is staggering.
Not related to the Dyson project but I had an email at work today where one of the groups is searching around industry for stock of certain components. Quite sobering that success isn't hinging on the complex bits, but more on supply of a few minor electrical components.
Really hope (but doubt) this might finally focus government on the need to support a more diverse and self sufficient manufacturing capability in the UK.
BBC reporting the Maclaren advanced CPAPs are arriving in hospitals. 600 made yesterday & 1000 today.
Let's hope that whoever is making them they ship asap.👍