[Closed] Got a speeding ticket!

there are 40mph repeater signs so, of course, that takes precedence.

Ah.. no.. well - not as I understand it. If the lights are close enough then they are [i]not allowed [/i] to put 30mph repeaters up... So therefore the lights must be more than 200 yards apart..? Is that right?

All the above discussion is irrelevant, of course, because we're getting closer and closer to 20mph being the default urban speed limit. So, you'll have to travel below 20, unless there are repeaters for 30.

ACPO have briefed forces not to enforce 20mph limits

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/public/cyclesafety/article3705446.ece

Hmm.. according to Google Maps the lights are only 125m apart...

No, because I wouldn't be driving at 40 on it if I wasn't sure.

ha ha ha ha ha.

Mol wins the internet.

Thread needs some Glupton for perfection, but it's still pretty ****ing good.

I'm assuming the location is this

[IMG] [/IMG]
[IMG] [/IMG]

Heading in from the M62, the 30 signs are just after the flyover

[IMG] [/IMG]

Correct me if I'm wrong

No that's right - already posted earlier. Easy to miss in traffic, I thought. One or both of those could easily be shielded by lorries or vans.

Actually it's the second set of signs - after you leave the M62 there are 40 signs, which I saw - then these are about half a mile (ish) later iirc.

molgrips - Member
No that's right - already posted earlier. Easy to miss in traffic, I thought. One or both of those could easily be shielded by lorries or vans.

Easy to miss? You drove over the bloody things 😆

Molgrips, as an officer of the law I hope you have learnt your lesson. You may end up going to prison whereupon you will be abused in the showers by "Mr Big". 😀

No that's right - already posted earlier. Easy to miss in traffic, I thought. One or both of those could easily be shielded by lorries or vans.

In that case you are right, you don't need a speed awareness course, you need glasses.

Yeah these are the ones at the end of the motorway
[IMG] [/IMG]

Then under the flyover are the 30's in my earlier post.

I agree that they are possible to miss in traffic. The reason I'm so interested is I used to use this road daily and couldn't place where you meant.

In that case you are right, you don't need a speed awareness course, you need glasses.

Very easy to say that whilst looking at google streetview images. I was paying attention, and I did miss them - I have no idea why. They may well have been obscured by lorries for all I know. Possibly due to being in the middle lane where neither sign is adjacent. I think there ought to be an overhead sign tbh.

If you can honestly say you've never missed a single sign or object of interest whilst driving* then sure, you're a better driver.

* hint - you can't, no-one can. And you will have missed stuff.

I break the speed limit frequently but in the full knowledge I am doing so. I got caught because I was unaware the traffic light camera I went through had been converted to a gatso. I was fortunate to be offered a course, it was actually quite good.

If you get offered it, I'd go on it. You might learn something.

Commiserations, Molgrips, I don't think many people can say they haven't unwittingly gone too fast due to unfamiliarity with the road and its limits at some time.

I did a refresher course offered by my insurance company to drivers who'd passed their test a long time before and found it useful for the legal/rules update but poor on the driving part. Ironically I got moaned at by the instructor for not making normal progress - I was driving at the 50kmh speed limit on an urban dual carriage way and refused to go faster.

I've resisted as long as I could ....... I tried really hard...... But it's got the better of me .......

When I got caught a while ago you were pretty self righteous with me ......

See that thing that looks like a clock on your dashboard? It tells you how fast you are going. See the little round signs with numbers in..?

I guess not, in your case

Oh the irony. 🙂

..... Oh and more .......

Mol grip;

Grr don't get me started. You talk about a moment's inattention like it doens't matter. That's exactly how people die, every day.

And even more .....

If you aren't capable of keeping to the limit AND watching where you are going, you're not fit to drive.

to be constantly watching the speedo
You don't need to constantly watch it. Just every so often. Can you not control your car's speed properly either?

I'm sure there's a well known phrase for this kind of thing ..... :-).
🙄 😆

Has anyone mentioned children's faces yet (can't be arsed to read all 6 pages)...

Anyway, if you can't do the time, don't do the crime.

paulmgreen

paulmgreen wins thread! 😆

Of course, paulmgreen could just clarify [i]how many[/i] times he'd been caught...

mol is still the more observant of the two by a long shot.

Has anyone mentioned children's faces yet (can't be arsed to read all 6 pages)...

First page, 19th response:

If you couldn't see the signs, how would you see a childs face other than stuck to your windscreen.....

He made a mistake.

End.

He made a mistake.

End.

The others he was slating made the same mistake 🙂

In 30 years of driving 30-45,000 miles a year around the country paulmgreen has 8 speed tickets in over a million driving miles......

The last two in empty roadworks at 3 am or Sunday tea time....

This thread is heartwarmingly ironic !!.....

😆

The others he was slating made the same mistake

8 times in 30 years? That's a lot.

Molgrips gets a speeding ticket and the thread runs for 6 fn pages!

Molgrips makes the mistake of posting on here he got a speeding ticket and thread runs to 8 pages...It was never going to end well.

I'm surprised the great big 30 signs painted in the road didn't give any clue as to what the limit was, though, even if the ones at the side were obscured by tunnel vision.

Paul you are dead right. I'm not defending myself. I should not have missed the signs.

However I think they could make them more visible. Given that I was looking out for them and still missed them..

As for looking at the speedo - I thought it was 40, I was caught doing 40!

I sympathise Molly, I really do. Humans are, well, human and it's easy to make mistakes occasionally.

But honestly, I'm struggling to see how much more visible those signs can be from the photographs. There's five signs, one is high vis and three are the width of the lane and several metres tall. What could be improved about these signs you say you were looking out for?

Repeaters, I guess, but as we've read here it's a nationwide policy not to do that for reasons of [s]cost-cutting[/s] safety.

What could be improved about these signs you say you were looking out for?

If you are in the middle of those three lanes and looking down the road, then both those signs are towards the side of your field of view. In traffic, the ones on the road can be obscured.

For all I know I was blindsided by lorries, or the lights weren't working, I have no idea because I missed the whole lot completely. If they cna't put overhead signs in, then make them bigger and more visible - like they do in lots of other places.

It's another thing I'll learn from though - just like the time I pulled out infront of someone at a roundabout, or the time I was a bit too keen trying to overtake a lorry...

[i]the ones on the road can be obscured[/i]

only if you're too close to the vehicle in front, surely?

and if you were blindsided by lorries then a 15ft diameter sign isn't going to help, surely?

only if you're too close to the vehicle in front, surely?

I dunno. At 40mph stopping distance you'd get 2 seconds to see something on the road surface, faded paint, dark etc. However, thinking about it I doubt there was anything infront of me because I'd have noticed them slow down.

I can't really explain why I didn't see the road markings, but I do think the signs would be easy to miss in the middle lane.

The fact that I'd already seen 40 signs and the road 'looked' like so many other 40s around the country, and hadn't changed much since the 40 signs must've made me subconsciously assume it was still 40. I even saw the speed camera markings and didn't worry about it, because I rarely worry about them because I am pretty much never speeding.

and if you were blindsided by lorries then a 15ft diameter sign isn't going to help, surely?

A larger taller sign would be more visible from further away, and be visible over the top of vans etc. I guess that's why they do them like that in so many other places.

It sounds like you went onto auto pilot for a bit and just missed the all the signage?

I think accepting that and not blaming the road design might be 'a good thing'.

Failing that presenting what you've typed on this thread in court may earn you a 'driving without due care and attention' conviction 😉

So, in conclusion, Molly is either:

a) a completely wreckless driver with no regard for children's faces
b) an incompetent driver who should have his licence revoked

or possibly

c) human..

'looked' like so many other 40s around the country,

sounds like speed awareness required.

Can you honestly say you have nothing to learn.

I think accepting that and not blaming the road design might be 'a good thing'.

I've accepted my mistake all the way through the thread. However, given that I usually notice speed limit signs, and having reviewed the images, I think that they could do with making the signs bigger. I know I'm not inattentive, so the fact I missed them says to me that they are easy to miss. And the fact that I'd already seen the 40 signs so assumed I was 'in a 40' for the duration of the DC. Mistake, of course.

I was not on autopilot, I was pretty hyped up, but I was concentrating on not going wrong and following my directions...

Can you honestly say you have nothing to learn.

Of course not. I even said a few posts back that it's something to learn from. I haven't been offered a course yet.

I don't think overtaking a lorry would prevent you seeing the signs at the side of the road. It would also require another vehicle overtaking you at the same time as you overtook the lorry at the time you passed the signs for both to be obscured. And in any case, if you were alongside the lorry as you passed the sign you would still have seen it up ahead before you started overtaking. Unless it takes you an inordinate amount of time to do an overtake?

From the road design I think it looks the same as hundreds of other transitions from 40 to 30 I've seen.

I think blaming the infrastructure is you rationalising your belief that it couldn't have been your fault.

We have all done this or similar whether it's missing a speed sign or the name of a road we were looking for, you're not the only one - most people just accept it was probably their fault and move on, though.

However, I can see you won;t be swayed so I'll leave it there.

Moly I have a question not speed related!
You live in Cardiff IIRC, so what in the name of something nasty were you doing coming into Liverpool on the M62?????

200!

[img] [/img]

Unless it takes you an inordinate amount of time to do an overtake?

Well if all the traffic is moving at close to the same speed you can be along side other traffic for a long time. You've never tried to look out for something on the roadside and had it completely obscured by a van on the inside? If you're faster than the other traffic by the right amount they can block your view completely from start to finish.

Or did you just not notice this happening? 🙂

You live in Cardiff IIRC, so what in the name of something nasty were you doing coming into Liverpool on the M62?????

M4 -> M5 -> M6 -> M62, obviously - which way would you have gone?

I only use overtaking lanes for overtaking mols, so I'm only alongside the truck for a few seconds 🙂

I've accepted my mistake all the way through the thread

With respect, you haven't. You've said "I missed a sign, it must be the sign's fault" rather than "I missed a sign, it must be my fault", which is why the great unwashed are now gleefully taking numbers to try and call you on it.

/DJ Voice

This one goes out to Molgrips, currently in his Passat, who didn't.

/DJ Voice

molgrips - Member

I've accepted my mistake all the way through the thread. However, given that I usually notice speed limit signs, and having reviewed the images, I think that they could do with making the signs bigger. I know I'm not inattentive, so the fact I missed them says to me that they are easy to miss. And the fact that I'd already seen the 40 signs so assumed I was 'in a 40' for the duration of the DC. Mistake, of course.

That's sound very much like you not accepting you're at fault (it's the size position etc of the signage), or that your were concentrating on the road conditions/speed limits because...

but I was concentrating on not going wrong and following my directions...

molgrips - Member

M4 -> M5 -> M6 -> M62, obviously - which way would you have gone?

Or even
M4 -> M5 -> M6 -> M56 -> M53

Don't worry most satnavs seem to take people that way & even the motorway signs hide the fact you can cut out that stupid way into Liverpool.

With respect, you haven't. You've said "I missed a sign, it must be the sign's fault" rather than "I missed a sign, it must be my fault"

Not really. I said it's my fault for missing the sign. However, the sign could still be more visible given that I was generally watching what I was doing.

The standard of signage is better elsewhere, why not there?

I have no explanation as to why I missed it, and I'd love to know.

That's sound very much like you not accepting you're at fault

Well it's not meant to. Let me clear it up a bit, if I can.

1) I was at fault
2) I was at fault
3) I was at fault
4) I feel that whilst I was at fault, they could've made it easier to see the signs.

Even though we may be obliged to complete a task, and we fail if we don't, that task can be made easier or harder, can't it?

4) I feel that whilst I was at fault, they could've made it easier to see the signs.

😀

Paul you are dead right. I'm not defending myself. I should not have missed the signs.

Fair enough.

However I think they could make them more visible. Given that I was looking out for them and still missed them..

It was all going so well 🙄

So you are defending your mistake then ?

You've constantly blamed the road design/signage/other traffic etc etc etc for the fact that you didn't see the perfectly adequate signs that it was a 30 limit.

Just accept it was entirely your own fault and move on.

M53 looks a lot further, and the M56 way involves going through Runcorn/Widnes. That could've been good or bad, I couldn't tell from the map, so I went with M62 being a safer bet.

Why shouldn't they make it easier to see the signs?

molgrips - Member

M53 looks a lot further, and the M56 way involves going through Runcorn/Widnes. That could've been good or bad, I couldn't tell from the map, so I went with M62 being a safer bet.

Ah well the safer bet 😉

Because where does it stop?

Do you check with everyone that the signs are big enough, or that 5 separate signs indicating the speed are sufficient?

Or do you find a reasonable size/quantity that anyone whose eyesight is good enough to drive can see?

I assume you usually see speed limit signs? If so, then they're big enough. If not, well...

I was not on autopilot, I was pretty hyped up, but I was concentrating on not going wrong and following my directions...

If only there was something that was right next to the directions you were following going 'boing' and indicating you were driving too fast. Oh wait.....

😆

Burn him!

If only there was something that was right next to the directions you were following going 'boing' and indicating you were driving too fast.

It went boing, but I didn't know what boing meant because I never normally hear it.

I didn't look at the screen when it went boing, cos I was concentrating on where I was going 🙂

Because where does it stop?

Just after the point where people who want to obey the limits and are concentrating will see them, and where they aren't obscured by traffic.

Most other places seem to manage it fine, why not Liverpool?

As above - that's a three lane road. The inside lane gets the inside one in their field of view, the outside lane gets the outside one. Anyone travelling in the middle lane may never get a clear view of the signs.

And we've not established if the lights were working either. They may not have been.

footflaps - Member

Burn him!

😯

miss read that at first glance!

Most other people [s]places[/s] seem to manage it fine, why not me [s]Liverpool[/s]?

fixed

Most, but not all?

Are you completely 100% confident you'd have seen the sign in the same spot? No doubts?

They're standard size signs, the same as everywhere else. If you normally see speed limit signs and/or the ones painted on the road, but didn't this time, it is not the signs that are the cause of that.

Why are you sat alongside a high vehicle for hundreds of metres without passing it? Those signs are visible from several hundred metres away, and can be read from over 100m away.

Are you completely 100% confident you'd have seen the sign in the same spot? No doubts?

maybe, maybe not.

but if I subsequently got a ticket I'd accept it was sufficient signage and it was 100% my mistake.

which you aren't...

miss read that at first glance!

Dr Freud will see you now...

but if I subsequently got a ticket I'd accept it was sufficient signage and it was 100% my mistake.

Hmm.

Depends what you mean by sufficient. Legal minimum, fine.

I just don't know why I completely missed the signs, since it's really very unusual for me to do this.

And having looked at the pictures, I can see how it's possible to miss. Lorry to the left, van to the right, you won't see either of those signs.

If I'd looked at the images and seen a massive gantry with signs all over it, then no question, I must've been half asleep. But I'm pretty sure I was alert, so that's what makes it strange.

You really can't see how those two little signs could be obscured?

molgrips - Member

Lorry to the left, van to the right.....

...and there you were, stuck in the middle

Need to watch yourself in Liverpool too, someone will stealer your wheels.....

I just don't know why I completely missed the signs, since it's really very unusual for me to do this.

Because you weren't paying enough attention.

Seems like you need to come to terms with that, and stop blaming other people for your mistake.

And having looked at the pictures, I can see how it's possible to miss. Lorry to the left, van to the right, [i]tailgating the car in fornt to obscure the road markings[/i] you won't see either of those signs.

Fixed that for you.

Come on, there's enough signs in a 'gate' style, there was additional markings on the road and your satnav also warned you that's enough really.
Did you honestly not even glance at your satnav (presumably mounted on your windscreen) during that time? It's a bit of a grandad excuse to be all confused by technology and so unable to take your eyes off the road ahead to glance, that you miss things in your tunnel vision style viewings. I'm not at all convinced that you'd have seen a kid running out I think we've had a bit about observational skills but I think it bears repeating.
You sound like you were half asleep really.

Seems like you need to come to terms with that, and stop blaming other people for your mistake.

Of course I wasn't paying enough attention, by definition. This is not in question.

However, signs should be designed to be noticeable. We're not talking about children's faces or baby robins here, things that randomly occur. If you're designing where to put signs and how big to make them, you should be looking at the situation and making sure that people aren't likely to miss it.

I don't think it's hard to imagine a scenario where those signs aren't visible. Are you saying it's not possible?

Did you honestly not even glance at your satnav (presumably mounted on your windscreen) during that time?

There's only 0.2 of a mile between the signs and the camera, and no junctions, so no.

You really can't see how those two little signs could be obscured

I can see that if you're alongside a lorry as you pass it that it is at that moment in time obscured.

Can you not see that an observant driver would notice the signs from a distance, and if not able to read them at that point, ensure they were in position to see them when they could. There are 5 of them in total.

Can you not see that an observant driver would notice the signs from a distance

Can you also not see that they could be obscured even from a distance?

I'm not at all convinced that you'd have seen a kid running out I think we've had a bit about observational skills but I think it bears repeating.

Good thing you don't need to be convinced. Are you saying that, when surrounded by traffic I should be watching my satnav instead?

Honestly, my point's made, you're just putting in the boot for pleasure, so you can all piss off.

And this Ladies and Gentlement is why our increasing reliance on "machine justice" makes a mockey of the both the legal system and peoples attitudes to that system!

In the old days, a real policeman would have stopped you, had a chat, applied some common sense based on the actual situation they observed. Depending on those circumstances, and how the accused handled the incident, chances are you'd be on your way with a warning, and a mental note to yourself to be more observant next time. Job done, point made.

In 2014, a machine measures your arbitary speed in an arbitary situation, and if speed > (limit+leeway) sends you the bill in the post.
At no point is there any human interaction, the perpitrator ends up "hating" the system for penalising them for something that in their mind was incredibly minor and it erodes their confidence in both the legal system and also is, imo, actually more likely to make them miss the entire point of the speed camera in the first place.
(most peoples reaction to a camera fine is not "i will drive slower" but "i will keep a better lookout next time"!!)

So, gradually, drivers faith in the legal system is eroded, and people who actually drive poorly, dangerously (which is actually completely independant of the speed at which they happen to be moving) and without courtesy to others continue to drive in that fashion.

So, whilst the law HAS to be black and white (<30mph = ok / >30 = speeding for example) we have lost the "grayscale" filter that a real human being used to apply.
This has meant that we now have a much much greater reliance and importance on the setting and maintaining of appropriate limits than before.

For example, immagine in extremis the following situation.

20mph zone, directly outside school gates, with a speeding camera set to fine you at >22mph (20mph +10%).

SITUATION 1:
At 3.30pm on a schoolday, when the road is full of cars, parents and kids, i will drive past at 20mph exactly. But, unfortunately, i'm smashed off my tits on a mixture of alcohol, hard drugs, and not only is my car on fire (my spliff set fire to the passenger seat....) but both rear tyres are flat.

SITUATION 2:
At 3.30am on Sunday morning, you drive past, doing 23mph. No one is about, the road is empty. You car is in perfect condition, you are not only driving well, but courteously, and you have recently passed your advanced driving test with the IAM.

Now, who would like to tell me that in both cases a human would respond in a similar fashion to the machine?

In case 1, with machine justice, i'm off scott free, in situation 2, you're getting a Fine and some points.

See what i mean 😉

Not constantly for several hundred metres, unless you are misusing the overtaking lanes. Was it really that congested so late at night?

Good thing you don't need to be convinced. Are you saying that, when surrounded by traffic I should be watching my satnav instead?

No, I'm saying that you should have the ability even if

unfamilar road, late night, long journey.

surrounded by traffic

to glance at a speed warning on your satnav, or take notice of some signs just 300 meters back from the speed camera!

you're just putting in the boot for pleasure

Yes, yes I am. with this and the not overtaking when opportunity clearly presents itself, you are painting a picture of an unobservant, reluctant and poor driver. This is OK though as you've nearly convinced me it's everyone else's fault.

However, signs should be designed to be noticeable. We're not talking about children's faces or baby robins here, things that randomly occur. If you're designing where to put signs and how big to make them, you should be looking at the situation and making sure that people aren't likely to miss it.

I wonder what % of people driving through that camera last week (for instance) actually got caught. Bet it's a pretty small number which would mean the majority saw the speed limit signs. Just saying...

you are painting a picture of an unobservant, reluctant and poor driver

Are you aware how things can be misinterpreted on the internet? You are for example painting a picture of yourself as a bellend, but I wouldn't judge you based on this picture because I've not met you.

Bet it's a pretty small number which would mean the majority saw the speed limit signs.

You bet, do you? Oh well that's me convinced, what a sound argument.

I'd bet it's a relativley high number. What do you think about that, eh? Mm?

At no point is there any human interaction, the perpitrator ends up "hating" the system for penalising them for something that in their mind was incredibly minor and it erodes their confidence in both the legal system and also is, imo, actually more likely to make them miss the entire point of the speed camera in the first place.

Well that's a reasonable point. However, the limit stands, and I've no problem with being caught. I was speeding. I would not have the camera removed. I should've seen the sign.

not overtaking when opportunity clearly presents itself

That was NOT EVER EVER the point of that thread. Your reading comprehension is utterly shit.

I imagine theres all kind of tenious defense given for speeding in the last 7 pages.

My opinion for what its worth as a relative of someone killed by a speeding motorist is that its indefensible.

You wouldnt post how you only tampered a little bit with small boys or only stole from people who could afford it.

Same with speeding a limits a limit, not just when you agree with it.

Same with speeding a limits a limit, not just when you agree with it.

+1

Don't think anyone defended speeding in the thread. Not going back to double check though, I'm not that bored.

That's a beauty of a response.

you're just putting in the boot for pleasure

Yes, yes I am.

Carry on Mr Poor Driver

lots of love

A Bellend.

flicker - Member
Don't think anyone defended speeding in the thread. Not going back to double check though, I'm not that bored.

But bored enough to post?

I can see an example on this page.