[Closed] Got a speeding ticket!

molgrips - Member

Don't we all?

I regularly do.
Do you?

You could be next

I've spent my whole life not getting caught for the laws that I break, I don't intend in getting caught now.

the minimum is exceeded in many areas all over the country, this is a situation that would benefit from that approach

They have exceeded the minimum, stop making excuses.

If this is piss taking it needs to be funnier

It only matters that I find it funny. 😛

My issue is with people thinking they don't need to stick to speed limits. This isn't me.

You haven't stuck to the speed limit anyway!
Is it ok for you to unknowingly speed, yet not ok for people to choose a safe speed to drive at, despite this being exactly what you were unwittingly doing?

If I understand Butcher's question he is asking "what does the white-with-black-stripe NSL sign mean when there are streetlights?"

I [i]think[/i] the answer is 30 limit, since that is the applicable NSL for that area, but it would be a dozy bit of signing as it is bound to lead to confusion.

(Judging by the random brake lights at speed cameras round here, some people seem to struggle with the NSL on single and dual carriageways - never mind using that sign on an residential street).

I regularly do.
Do you?

Of course.

Is it ok for you to unknowingly speed, yet not ok for people to choose a safe speed to drive at, despite this being exactly what you were unwittingly doing?

Seriously? You think there's no moral difference between doing something deliberately and accidentally (whilst trying not to do it)?

However, I didn't say that it was ok to unknowingly speed. If you read the thread I'm not saying it's ok.

what does the white-with-black-stripe NSL sign mean when there are streetlights?

How far apart are the streetlights?

The meaning of the National Speed Limit sign is defined in the Highway Code and it is different depending on what vehicle you are driving.

You should not be recognising urban and rural settings in determining the speed limit at all.

Urban and Rural are probably not the best choice of words, but the government do clearly state that the National Speed Limit is 30mph in 'Built-up areas', as per the link already posted:

[url=http://]www.gov.uk/speed-limits[/url]

I'm still not sure how a built-up area is defined?

[quote=molgrips ]You think there's no moral difference between doing something deliberately and accidentally (whilst trying not to do it)?

Of course not. There's a quite clear difference between deliberately driving at a safe speed for the conditions and not being capable of doing what you're trying to do.

Some info here

http://www.safermotoring.co.uk/understandingspeedlimits.html

There's a quite clear difference between deliberately driving at a safe speed for the conditions and not being capable of doing what you're trying to do

Since you're going down this route, I'll follow.

How do you know if it's a safe speed?

Just read something interesting on wikipedia whilst looking for the [url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Built-up_area_%28Highway_Code%29 ]official definition of "built-up area"[/url].

Apparently the TSRGD rules state they CANNOT put 30mph repeater signs on a street that has regular street lamps:

Direction 11 of The Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2002 (TSRGD 2002) defines the requirements for the placing of speed-limit repeater signs. This states that speed-limit repeater signs cannot be placed along a road on which there is carriageway lighting not more than 183 metres apart and which is subject to a 30 mph speed limit. The Department will not make exceptions to this rule.

So that may answer part of your point mol.

they CANNOT put 30mph repeater signs on a street that has regular street lamps:

Where the spacing is less than 183m

Why does everyone keep ignoring this bit?

Graham yes I read that too, and it's bizarre.

If I don't run into anything it was clearly safe.

I should maybe have put one of these on my previous post 😉

You're suggesting the government web page is incorrect?

Yes, I have explained why.
That webpage is not law.

So I leave my house and drive down the road. I don't pass a sign. Does that mean the speed limit isn't 30?

Unless you have your motor vehicles delivered by helicopter, then you would have passed a sign on the way [i]to[/i] your house.

I think you're getting confused because NSL is usually used as an abbreviation for "NSL outside built up areas".

I assure you I am not the one who is confused.

So are 60 limits.

There are very few 60 or 70 limit roads, in England at least. You're getting confused between a 60 limit and the NSL, which is variable, but without the aforementioned signage, in a car, on a road that is single carriageway, the NSL would be 60, not 30.

Likewise in molgrip's scenario, if it wasn't for the large 30mph roundels, the regular and obvious street lighting, and the *massive 30mph signs painted on the road, the NSL would be 70, not 30 (in a car, assuming it is actually a dual carriageway).

*actually has no legal bearing, but included for effect.

I only spotted how close they were when it was too late.

[quote=molgrips ]Where the spacing is less than 183m

I always concentrate really hard on my satnav to measure the exact spacing between streetlamps, as I wouldn't want to get the speed limit wrong. Clearly repeater signs must not be used as it would be a tragedy if motorists lost the ability to measure streetlamp spacing.

molgrips - Member

Since you're going down this route, I'll follow.

How do you know if it's a safe speed?

You should already know the answer to this question molgrips, as you were driving safely in excess of the speed limit.

a classic speed camera crash last weekend on the A3, massive rear end shunt right at the camera where clearly the guy in front had slammed his brakes on when the saw the camera.

Pedant Mode on:

sbob » aracer - Member
https://www.gov.uk/speed-limits
I actually had that page open in a tab already.
It is incorrect.
If there are no signs then the speed limit is never 30.

You're suggesting the government web page is incorrect?

So I leave my house and drive down the road. I don't pass a sign. Does that mean the speed limit isn't 30?

I think you're getting confused because NSL is usually used as an abbreviation for "NSL outside built up areas".

30mph roads are always signed on entry

So are 60 limits.

But surely aracer, you're arguing that the National Speed Limit is 60, where as that website is handily titled National Speed Limit[i][b]S[/b][/i] therefore implying that there are differing limits, from 30 to 70mph? In common useage, the NSL as signed bu the white circle with a black stripe, indicates 60 (for a car), interestingly it used to mean unlimited.

Pedant mode off

What's all this about the spacing of street lamps? I thought that for an area to be 'street lit' (is that right?) it was 3 lights. Then if there is no other indication of the speed limit it defaults to 30. That was certainly the teaching on my awareness course

aracer - Member

I always concentrate really hard on my satnav to measure the exact spacing between streetlamps, as I wouldn't want to get the speed limit wrong. Clearly repeater signs must not be used as it would be a tragedy if motorists lost the ability to measure streetlamp spacing.

Can we start arguing about whether a streetlamp is a streetlamp or whether it is road lighting?
I believe the height of the light is the defining factor, though I can never seem to find the definition.
Would be useful to help those motorists that can better estimate distance in the vertical rather than horizontal plane.

Wunhundred!

[img] [/img]

[quote=sbob ]Unless you have your motor vehicles delivered by helicopter, then you would have passed a sign on the way to your house.

Strangely enough the first time I ever drove a car was in a 30 limit, and I don't think I passed a single speed limit sign for the whole of my first drive. I'm fairly when I've collected every car I've owned I've been in a 30 limit without passing a sign (no need for a helicopter). Hence it seems quite logical to assume normal starting point as being in a 30 limit and you have to pass a sign not to be in one.

Have you ever stopped to wonder whether it's you that's strange if your normal journeys start somewhere other than your house?

the regular and obvious street lighting

Which still aren't signs, and as pointed out by molgrips you need a tape measure to determine the speed limit from them.

I thought that for an area to be 'street lit' (is that right?) it was 3 lights.

Three lights, not more than 183 metres apart.

From wikipedia (which sources the TSRGD guidance):

Section 82(1)(a) (of the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984 (RTRA 1984)) defines a restricted road in England and Wales as a road which is provided with "a system of street lighting furnished by means of lamps placed not more than [b]200 yards apart[/b]". Section 81 specifically makes it an offence for a person to drive a motor vehicle at a speed of more than 30 mph on a restricted road.

...

As set out in paragraph 45, it is generally recognised that a ‘system’ of street lighting could be three or more lamps spaced [b]not more than 183 metres[/b] apart.

-- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Built-up_area_%28Highway_Code%29

Unless you have your motor vehicles delivered by helicopter, then you would have passed a sign on the way to your house.

What if I'm picking up a car that someone else drove? Say my missus left it in town and I have to go pick it up? Should I quiz the previous driver to determine what the last speed limit sign they passed was? Or just get my 183 metre tape measure out? 😀

aracer - Member

Strangely enough the first time I ever drove a car was in a 30 limit, and I don't think I passed a single speed limit sign for the whole of my first drive. I'm fairly when I've collected every car I've owned I've been in a 30 limit without passing a sign (no need for a helicopter). Hence it seems quite logical to assume normal starting point as being in a 30 limit and you have to pass a sign not to be in one.

Have you ever stopped to wonder whether it's you that's strange if your normal journeys start somewhere other than your house?

Now you're just being facetious.
Are you trying to tell me that on the way to your house, before you had a licence, you never passed a 30 limit sign?
Were you born at home and lived in your basement all your life?
Have you only ever bought a car from people who live on the same estate?

No.

So you would have passed 30 sign.

Which still aren't signs

Yes they are.

and as pointed out by molgrips you need a tape measure to determine the speed limit from them.

No you don't, you just need a bit of common sense. Stop making excuses for moller's shit driving.

Cheers Graham.
Right, next time I'm out and relying on that system, I'll be getting out and measuring.

Or, I suppose that I could take it as how it was intended, a bloody good way of indicating the limit that's likely to only make you drive slower than the posted limit. Seems fair enough.

You should already know the answer to this question molgrips, as you were driving safely in excess of the speed limit.

GrahamS - Member

What if I'm picking up a car that someone else drove? Say my missus left it in town and I have to go pick it up? Should I quiz the previous driver to determine what the last speed limit sign they passed was? Or just get my 183 metre tape measure out?

If you really can't remember what the speed limit is, and you are having trouble differentiating between a busy built up town centre and say, a motorway, then driving probably isn't for you. 😉

He believed he was driving safely and was driving in excess of the speed limit, which is a slightly different thing.

Correct, but don't spoil things now, I believe molgrips may be close to having a "eureka" moment. 🙂

[quote=sbob ]Now you're just being facetious.
Are you trying to tell me that on the way to your house, before you had a licence, you never passed a 30 limit sign?
Were you born at home and lived in your basement all your life?
Have you only ever bought a car from people who live on the same estate?

I was born in a hospital which I believe is in a 30 limit, hence the first speed limit sign I ever passed was one for some different speed limit, though I can't quite remember exactly where that was or what the speed limit was. I'll admit to being guilty of inattention.

Yes of course I passed 30 limit signs before I drove a car - I also passed plenty of other speed limit signs, but the majority of journeys I've ever done I've not needed to pass a sign to be in a 30 limit. Oh and as mentioned above all the cars I've bought I've first driven in 30 limits. Without passing a sign. Though I suppose I did once look as a car being sold by a dealership outside an urban area, so it's all the fault of an obnoxious smarmy salesman that I've never had the experience of having to pass a 30 sign before driving a car in a 30 limit.

If there are no signs then the speed limit is never 30.

Is it really facetious to point out just how wrong that is in the real world?

[quote=GrahamS ]Should I quiz the previous driver to determine what the last speed limit sign they passed was?

Well you could just assume 30 by default as I'm suggesting, though sbob seems to think there's something wrong with that.

Shall we start a debate about how a dual carriage way is defined?

Well you could just assume 30 by default as I'm suggesting, though sbob seems to think there's something wrong with that.

No you can't do that. If you haven't seen a sign it MUST be a 60 because that is the National Speed Limit. sbob says so 😉

Butcher - I would refer to the statutory/mandatory instruction which is the Highway code and the law, not government [u]guidance[/u]. Thus i would encourage you to not be overly concerned about how a built up area is defined as it goes in no way whatsoever in determining speed limits.

aracer, re the 6pm naughty drivers course....it was one of the AA ones, AA Drivetech perhaps?
It was 6-9pm with a 15 min wee break. Although their website says it is a 4hr course, so perhaps is was longer than that. Hmmm. Saved me having to take any holiday, anyway.
I know my mate got done in North Wales as well a couple of years before and had to go back there to do the course.

After my evening of education I did feel like childishly gunning it all the way home and sicking the vees to authority, but quickly thought better of it.....I'm not very rebellious!

Shall we start a debate about how a dual carriage way is defined?

[img] [/img]

i.e. It doesn't matter how many lanes there are. The important part is if the roads (carriageways) going in opposite directions have a divider/reservation between them.

But IIRC there are some nasty niggly details about how big the divider/reservation is between the carriageways, which means that a dual carriageway with too much distance between the carriageways actually turns into two single one-way carriageways, so actually returns to a 60 limit.

Although their website says it is a 4hr course, so perhaps is was longer than that.

My AA Drivetech one was 4hrs, 8am-12pm.

Aracer, did you teleport to every car you bought? I'm in a 30 limit now, and not driving. How do I know it's a thirty? By all of the methods I have already mentioned.
If you can't remember entering a 30 zone and parking up by the time you next use your car then your level of senility probably dictates that you should not drive.

Is it really facetious to point out just how wrong that is in the real world?

It isn't wrong, and I have clearly explained why, but as you are struggling I will repeat myself.

You are on a single carriageway road in a car. There is no speed limit roundel. There is no repeater. There are no steetlamps. There are no speed limit signs painted on the road surface.

There are no signs.

What is the speed limit for your vehicle?

It's 60mph!

Conversely, you are on a 30 limit road.
You will be able to see at least one of these signs:
Roundels (on entering).
Repeaters.
Streetlamps.
Road markings.

I really can't make it any easier for you.

Don't get hung up on 183 metres. If there are street lights in a row they'll be within that. It's just telling you that a solitary streetlight in the middle of nowhere doesn't make it 30. Like in Narnia or at the end of posh peoples drives.

GrahamS - Member
Well you could just assume 30 by default as I'm suggesting, though sbob seems to think there's something wrong with that.
No you can't do that. If you haven't seen a sign it MUST be a 60 because that is the National Speed Limit. sbob says so

NSL for a car, on a single carriageway, yes. Otherwise there will be one of the signs that I have mentioned.
I can't believe it's taken someone who deliberately avoids the complex amino acids that were instrumental in the development of the human brain to finally ****ing get it.

Halle-****ing-lujah. 😆

Except that streetlamps are streetlamps, not signs. If you'd suggested "If there are no signs or streetlamps (spaced no more than 200yds apart) then the speed limit is never 30" then we might not have had this fascinating diversion.

[quote=sbob ]Aracer, did you teleport to every car you bought?

My current one I cycled to, my first one I got driven to by my parents (so in neither case did I need to worry about speed limits before I got there 😈 )

The streetlamps are a sign. A sign doesn't have to be text on a flat background, google will help if you are struggling.

I always concentrate really hard on my satnav to measure the exact spacing between streetlamps

Whilst you do raise a valid point about it being a bit silly - the point I was trying to make is that simply having any kind of streetlights is not enough to make it a 30 by default. They have to be close streetlights.

If I understand Butcher's question he is asking "what does the white-with-black-stripe NSL sign mean when there are streetlights?"

Does that ever happen? NSL sign = 60 limit (for cars), as close to universally as I can remember off the top of my head anyway; the start of an "NSL" section in a built-up area would be demarked with a (30) sign, not an (/) NSL sign.

[quote=molgrips ]Whilst you do raise a valid point

Sorry 😳

Also, the lights were obviously closer than 200 yards, as I noticed after it was too late.

[quote=sbob ]The streetlamps are a sign. A sign doesn't have to be text on a flat background, google will help if you are struggling.

Hmm https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=sign&tbm=isch - I got bored, let me know how far down I have to scroll to find a streetlamp.

Newest road signage laws mean that on a lot of roads only one repeater will be sufficient where they used to have to be at regular intervals. This really only applies to unlit roads however. As street lighting is a good sign it's a 30.

For future reference, if you get stopped, it's worthwhile checking that the gate signs (ie the ones that mark the beginning of the 30) are lit. If they have illumination and it's busted, you'll get off with it. Likewise if the sign isn't reflective (or lit as an alternative). Finally, it's worth checking that the road has the correct speed restriction order in place. Without it the national speed limit applies, regardless of road signage. For Scottish drivers, first port of call is a freedom of information request to Transport Scotland. There are *lots* of non compliant roads. In Scotland also, don't expect the procurator fiscal to know the law surrounding this. They are useless in that regard and will try to prosecute regardless. Then you get to embarrass them in court. 😉

Molgrips - were you speeding in your Passat? That's almost cause for joy in itself - the car can go fast enough to break speed limits! 😀 (sorry, couldn't help myself)

Funny thing is if you ignored the posted speed limits and drove to the conditions rather than a single arbitrary figure you'd more than likely have spotted the camera and acted accordingly 🙂

Actually, given p8ddy's post, can I just check you weren't waiting in a queue to overtake at the time? 😈

Molgrips - were you speeding in your Passat? That's almost cause for joy in itself - the car can go fast enough to break speed limits!

130mph top speed, did I miss a joke?

Guess the limit here (not where I got a ticket)

[url= https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3858/14409818537_7b21fc20d9_z.jp g" target="_blank">https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3858/14409818537_7b21fc20d9_z.jp g"/> [/img][/url][url= https://flic.kr/p/nXm62c ]40mph[/url] by [url= https://www.flickr.com/people// ]molgrips[/url], on Flickr

60, obviously - no signs.

Nothing marking otherwise, assume 30 (although your filename suggests otherwise).

Does that ever happen? NSL sign = 60 limit (for cars), as close to universally as I can remember off the top of my head anyway; the start of an "NSL" section in a built-up area would be demarked with a (30) sign, not an (/) NSL sign.

This is my thoughts. But I live in a fairly rural settings. The village I grew up in for example, is a 30 zone. Come to the end of the village and it opens up to NSL. However, street lighting remains all the way along, for over a mile. It's not a built up area, but I'm totally confused. Street lighting. Houses. What defines a built up area? It's always been regarded a 60 limit for public cars and police anyway.

Similarly, many major NSL roads pass through villages. Usually you're confronted by a 30 (or occasionally 40) sign as you enter each one. Very occasionally though, you will pass (what I would call) a small built-up area with street lighting. Are you supposed to slow down (I often do, to a speed that feels safe). But why the inconsistency? Why wouldn't you just put a sign there. Where do you have to have a debate on a forum to figure out what you're supposed to be doing? Does anyone have a link to the actual law, and do I have to drop an 183 metre piece of string at every lamp post to see if it reaches the next one?

This built up area crap has been eating away at me since I did my naughty boys course. I didn't understand it then, and I don't understand it now.

Not sure if the link has been given, but I found something suggesting that the policy is you can't put repeaters on any 30 streetlit 30 limit because of the risk of losing court cases on bits of road where there are no repeaters. That's despite expert advice suggesting that there would be a benefit from putting repeaters on bits of road (like molgrips original) which seem like the limit should be higher.

Oh and regarding the photo, please ignore my earlier answer - I forgot to check whether I was starting from home.

Butcher - ignore the built up area nonsesne!!!!

The village I grew up in for example, is a 30 zone. Come to the end of the village and it opens up to NSL. However, street lighting remains all the way along, [quote/]

If there is a national speed limit sign where it 'opens up to NSL' then this sign overrules the street lighting and there will be repeater signs on the street lighting.

Its quite simple really, but please please please understand being in a built up area or not does not determine the speed limit!

molgirps, in the picture the limit is 30.

It's a 40 of course, from the filename, but there are plenty of streetlights. Not really obvious from the spacing either.

There are repeaters though, I had to crop one out of the picture 🙂

From what I understand though - if there were no repeaters, it would have to be 30, but you woudn't know until you'd driven for long enough to be sure there weren't any. A bit stupid.

but you woudn't know until you'd driven for long enough to be sure there weren't any. A bit stupid.

Correct, so assume its 30. But you would have passed the massive 30 sign indicating the start of a 30.....

But you would have passed the massive 30 sign indicating the start of a 30

Unless you pulled out of one of those houses.

That's a silly example then as there are 40mph signs but you chose to not show them.

If there were no speed limit signs I would assume 30mph and do a maximum of 30.

how is it stupid you would assume a lower limit until you see it's a 40?

Better then people assuming a 30mph is a NSL and then slamming the brakes on at a 30mph repeater or hitting someone.

But you would have passed the massive 30 sign indicating the start of a 30
Unless you pulled out of one of those houses.

In which case

1. You'd know what the speed limit is and
2. You'd see the repeater signs that you cropped.

Butcher - ignore the built up area nonsesne!!!!

I'm trying to. I really am. But the government don't seem to think it's nonsense. The law enforcement people at my speed awareness course didn't seem to think it was nonsense. As much as I'd like to, I can't dismiss it because some dude on a forum thinks it is. 😉

Unless you pulled out of one of those houses.

You would have passed one getting to those houses.

From what I understand though - if there were no repeaters, it would have to be 30, but you woudn't know until you'd driven for long enough to be sure there weren't any. A bit stupid.

not really. assume its a 30 unless you see something telling you it isn't.

you could do with going on a speed awareness course.

Butcher I dont think it is nonsense. I know, categorically 100%, without any doubt at all, that it [u]is[/u] nonsense.

The law enforcement people

[b]5 [/b] pages

[img] [/img]

[quote=molgrips ]Unless you pulled out of one of those houses.

😆

[quote=edward2000 ]You would have passed one getting to those houses.

Unless you were born there, or arrived by helicopter (or asleep in somebody else's car, or on a bike from the BW just out of shot, etc.) 😉

you could do with going on a speed awareness course

No, because I wouldn't be driving at 40 on it if I wasn't sure.

My point is that the rules are a bit crap, because you might not know. You shouldn't have to guess or err on the side of caution - it should be clear. How f'in hard is it to put repeater signs up ffs?

ah didums

[quote=molgrips ]
No, because I wouldn't be driving at 40 on it if I wasn't sure.
[url= http://singletrackmag.com/forum/topic/got-a-speeding-ticket ]:roll:[/url]

From what I understand though - if there were no repeaters, it would have to be 30, but you woudn't know until you'd driven for long enough to be sure there weren't any. A bit stupid.

How frequently are 40 repeaters required?

How far would you travel, and for how long, at 30mph to cover this distance?

How much longer would it take to travel the entire length of the road at 30, compared to at 40?

No, because I wouldn't be driving at 40 on it if I wasn't sure

please take it to court. please.

All the above discussion is irrelevant, of course, because we're getting closer and closer to 20mph being the default urban speed limit. So, you'll have to travel below 20, unless there are repeaters for 30.

Did you weigh yourself after reading the penalty notice?

Butcher I dont think it is nonsense. I know, categorically 100%, without any doubt at all, that it is nonsense.

I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm just saying I can't take it as truth until I see the evidence.

please take it to court

Why? I was in the wrong, I'll take the punishment like a grown up 🙂

[img] [/img]

Not like that grown up though.

I've driven down that stretch a few times now often at night in the pouring rain and/or snow after leaving the M62.The big 30mph signs painted on the road and 30mph road signs made me slow down and stick at 30 till signs say different.But then again I'm not a very good driver.

It's not a built up area, but I'm totally confused. Street lighting. Houses. What defines a built up area? It's always been regarded a 60 limit for public cars and police anyway.

What you're confusing, I think, is that the legal status of the built-up area (technically "restricted roads") applies [i]unless the road is signed otherwise.[/i]

The relevant bit of law is here:

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1984/27/part/VI

Rule 81 states that a restricted road carries a 30mph limit. 82 defines a restricted road via the lighting as we've discussed, unless the responsible local authority decides to override this in which case it requires signage.

Rule 85(5) explains that in your example, the lights and the absence of signs implies that it's a restricted road as above. So, unless there are signs to the contrary then it would appear as though your locals (and the local plod) all have it wrong and it is in fact a 30mph limit. Which is interesting, I'd have probably interpreted it as 60 too. Gosh.

Going on to Molgrips' example,

Guess the limit here.

Built-up area, so 30mph (check the lighting) [i]in the absence of any other information.[/i] But as he later explained, there are 40mph repeater signs so, of course, that takes precedence.