Gore-Tex is a Marketing Gimmick

This is why my waterproof is a Decathlon boil in the bag type thing.. When i'm out riding, i'm sweating, there's no level of breathable that can allow for the amount i sweat.. So i either just accept the rain, or boil in the bag... it's that simple for me.

Imwas, but when I looked at the numbers decades ago it seemed fairly clear that Sympatex was better in every way .....

Except the most important one: the name.

Just like Sprayway versus Berghaus there was no way a brand that sounder like one of Barbie's horses was going to win against the number of glutteral consonants in Gore Tex or Berghaus

🤩

Ryan F9

Who?

When it was the only game in town, it was a revelation. Moving from neoprene  to Goretex was an amazing experience.  First test was a wet day on Sgùrr na Ciche and some improvement.  40 years later, it would be disappointing if there were not better stuff about. It's a long time since I wore any Goretex.  Some of the kit in that time was similar, most better than that first green Berghaus cag.

Ryan F9

Who?

He's a YouTube motorbikerist who to me at least, has always come across as arrogant as F.
Don't generally watch him.

I think maybe the, 'another interesting video from' might be because we had one the other week from him about why motorcycles cost the same as mountainbikes.

Who?

Canadian youtuber mostly doing motorcycle content with a science/humour spin.  There was a video of his posted on here a week or two ago which prompted some interest which asked why mountain bikes cost the same as motorbikes.

Edit: beaten to it, though I don't see the arrogance personally

It's not the miracle fabric it's made out to be when used in a jacket, in my experience. But I've never bought one at close to RRP, so it's not an issue in that sense. I buy them for fit, design and quality - and usually that means Gore-Tex is the fabric specced
I do find Gore-Tex is really effective in walking boots though, certainly for approach shoes/mid-boots.

The Gore-Tex patents expired years ago*, but the company did a good job of building the brand while they had a monopoly and their expanded ptfe membrane was the best solution**. Now they licence the trade mark, which they have looked after quite well in terms of not lettig it be used on badly made stuff. But it appears other types of fabric perform a bit better these days

* the main ones anyhow

** the classic way to build a lasting business out of a transitory technological advantage, see also Dolby Laboratories

I feel so ripped off with the Goretex boots that keep my feet dry and warm on the bike in winter! And the Goretex trainers that I run in and don't get wet feet running through the woods through puddles and wet tracks! They do exactly what I bought them for, what rip off!
I won't be watching the click-bait vid 😛

"I won’t be watching the click-bait vid"

In that case you missed out on some good stuff, but to summarise the advertising tag-line is wrong and should be;
Breathable OR Waterproof
There, now you can continue feeling smug about your waterproof boots and trainers 😉

desperatebicycle
Free Member
I feel so ripped off with the Goretex boots that keep my feet dry and warm on the bike in winter! And the Goretex trainers that I run in and don’t get wet feet running through the woods through puddles and wet tracks! They do exactly what I bought them for, what rip off!
I won’t be watching the click-bait vid 😛

Sounds like you should've. All the video is saying is that there are other options out there that will do the same job for less, especially as modern Gore-Tex is a knock-off of the old knock-offs, you'll just struggle in your name dropping competition

Goretex/membranes work - it's just the DWR coating that is required doesn't work well/for long nowadays since the environmental persistent chemicals were removed from it.

I can't stand goretex or any other waterproof membrane in boots.  My feet just end up in a bath of sweat.  I had to import some merrils without a membrane from the US for warm weather walking

Yep, it's down to if it works for you. I ride with people who swear by it for jackets, but they clearly can't be sweating. I'm drenched by the time I've tightened my shoes up.

since the environmental persistent chemicals were removed from it.

Most have just swapped to slightly yes toxic variants, eg short chain CFCs rather than long chain.

It can be waterproof and breathable but there are lots of factors suche as the dwr coating allowing beading and run off. The relative humidity inside and outside the jacket, temperature and.....lots of things I've long since forgotten.

For mid to high intensity physical movement nothing will not be boil in a bag if its job is to try and keep you dry from the rain.

Ive never thought to myself that a wet jacket should remain breathable. That well beyond the realms of feasibility. Did I miss something here?

I wore sealskins AND goretex boots yesterday (it was wet). My feet remained pretty dry and un-sweaty inside.

Did I miss something here?

You can make money with click-bait YT videos, pick a big brand and then slag it off as a 'big reveal' and lots of people will watch ads embedded in your video..

Works well for me and seems to be more durable than their competitors.

Goretex boots and socks have transformed winter riding for me.

Op here.  I do get that the thread title is a little click baity, but it's a C&P of the video title, not my words. I've used Goretex for decades and was in the army in the early 1980s when issued waterproofs changed from nylon to Gotetex. They were definitely an improvement. But over the years I've worn it for hillwalking, soldiering, motorcycling, running and mountain biking. With very mixed results. I find it's good in boots and socks, mediocre in jackets and worse than useless in gloves.
I must have tried ten or more pairs of Gotetex gloves and not one has survived more than a couple of heavy down pours before letting water in.

I posted the video for interest. I think it makes some good points about clever marketing and our gullibility as consumers (including mine). I get that people have different experiences but I do chuckle when people slag content off then admit that they haven't even watched it.

You can make money with click-bait YT videos, pick a big brand and then slag it off as a ‘big reveal’ and lots of people will watch ads embedded in your video..

To be fair, you make this guy sounds like another Lewis Buchanan but he's actually put some work in to the background, demonstrations, etc. He's also not saying Gore-Tex is bad, just that it's no better than some others

You can make money with click-bait YT videos, pick a big brand and then slag it off as a ‘big reveal’ and lots of people will watch ads embedded in your video..

Are you implying some kind of marketing gimmick?

😀

From a marketing perspective, GT is a brilliant example of a trusted brand. Most people know what they're getting, or at least that it's "a thing to look for" in a jacket.

Yeah, it might not be the absolute best, but it's gonna work pretty well and the buyer won't need to delve into tons of research to work out which membrane is actually best for them.

Personally, I have other waterproof jackets that are better and worse than my GT one - but I couldn't tell you what membrane any of them use.

I've always preferred to not wear waterproofs if I can avoid it, they're not magic, just slightly better than plastic bag jackets! Definitely worse at wetting out these days which is what stops any breathability, the only goretex I wear regularly is a shakedry bike jacket that actually functions pretty well although I still get a bit sweaty. It's a shame Gore have stopped making the fabric though...

I saw this yesterday because I'm a Fortnine subscriber. There's no one else making interesting content about motorcycles at their level with their production values. The stories they tell go way beyond the usual "I got this new toy and it's a game changer" type shit that everyone else does.

I also didn't know anything about the history of Gore-Tex or their bullish business practices. I also didn't know that Gore-Tex isn't really Gore-Tex anymore.

I have noticed (since I started shopping for motorbike clothing) that you can usually buy 2 identical versions of a jacket or trousers from a manufacturer and the Gore-Tex one is twice the price. Now I won't even consider paying the extra charge.

So yes, excellent value for a free video.

Said it for years. None of them breath anywhere near enough under any level of exertion. As a runner they are a waste of time. I do prefer waterproof boots however. Yes you get damp feet but preferable to soaking feet constantly dipped in freshly freezing water/bog.

I also didn’t know that Gore-Tex isn’t really Gore-Tex anymore.

Variations on a theme, still expanded PTFE membranes, but they've been refining it for decades. There's also so much more than just the membrane, how it's bonded to fabrics etc.

their bullish business practices

I would say excellent brand management, they had an ok technology, but almost perfect marketing and brand management leading to the point where the GTX logo commands a massive price hike in the market, but for good reason: there are no duff GTX branded products out there, every product is approved by the Hive and anything sub standard is rejected.

Dyson would be another example, mediocre technology but excellent branding. £500 for a hair dryer anyone?

There was a good obituary in the NYT for Robert Gore: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/25/science/robert-gore-dead.html

I would say excellent brand management, they had an ok technology, but almost perfect marketing and brand management leading to the point where the GTX logo commands a massive price hike in the market, but for good reason: there are no duff GTX branded products out there, every product is approved by the Hive and anything sub standard is rejected.

Dyson would be another example, mediocre technology but excellent branding. £500 for a hair dryer anyone?

I don't think those are the practices he means. More the, "not using our stuff on that jacket? We're pulling your licence so you can't do any Gore-Tex kit" approach that's under investigation

Wait...How is it that mountain bikers - of all folks, haven't known this for years? We all know that if you do the sort of high intensity exercise that Gore-Tex can't cope with; it err...doesn't work. How is anything in that video a surprise to anyone here?

How is anything in that video a surprise to anyone here?

Have you watched it?

So yes, excellent value for a free video.

Un-ironically F9 on my keyboard is the shortcut for fast-forward.

I think I stumbled across his channel a while ago and concluded he's just another shouty youtuber, there is no nuance on this matter, just my opinion, disagree with me in the comments to feed the algorithm.

More the, “not using our stuff on that jacket? We’re pulling your licence so you can’t do any Gore-Tex kit” approach that’s under investigation

Sounds dubious given nearly every outdoor brand with GTX products (that I know of) also uses other membranes in waterproof jackets in their range eg Rab uses 3 or 4 different types IIRC: GTX, Pertex Shield, their own one in their Kinetic jackets, and probably another one....

it err…doesn’t work

Well it works exactly as specified, just if you sweat at a rate greater than the fabric can emit, you'll still get damp. Like buying a car with a top speed of 100mph and they saying 'it doesn't work' because you wanted to drive at 110mph.

I would say excellent brand management, they had an ok technology, but almost perfect marketing and brand management leading to the point where the GTX logo commands a massive price hike in the market, but for good reason: there are no duff GTX branded products out there, every product is approved by the Hive and anything sub standard is rejected.

Salomon springs to mind, how have they been allowed to become so poor and still be badged GTX?

Gortex does what it does. Unlike that guy (by the look of it) some of us remember what life was like before breathable fabrics were widespread. I can assure you, it was definitely not as good.

So Goretex and other fabrics are a huge improvement. If your issue is with the marketing material, then, whatever. That's what marketing is like.

We all know that if you do the sort of high intensity exercise that Gore-Tex can’t cope with; it err…doesn’t work

It does WORK in that it transports vapour from inside your jacket to outside it. You may produce more moisture than the jacket can shift, you get damp. This is obvious if you think about it for a moment. It's like pouring a pint of water into a half pint glass and then complaining that the glass doesn't work because now your feet are wet.

Sounds dubious

Is that shorthand for absolute bollocks? 😂

https://bike.shimano.com/en-EU/product/apparel-accessories/shimano-series-lsg-2022/SH-MW702.html

vs

https://bike.shimano.com/en-EU/product/apparel-accessories/shimano-series-lsg-2022/SH-MW501.html

Key takeaway – it’s [s] breathable OR waterproof, not [/s] breathable AND waterproof. [s] It can do both things, [/s] but not at the same time

Ftfy.

Is that shorthand for absolute bollocks?

Given it's demonstrably false, yes, total and absolute bollocks...

Ftfy.

Not really, GTX with a good DWR is both until the DWR finally wets out, which can be quite a decent time. I have a TNF Point Five jacket with excellent DWR (probably highly toxic) and it is just amazing in the rain. I've never washed it as I am very reluctant to loose any of the DWR.

I watched half of the vid. He doesn't really know what he's talking about.

Why don't we just use DWR without a membrane? Well why don't you go and try that out see how you get on mate? I have and so have a lot of other people.

If you think you're better off with a wooly jumper and a binbag - go right ahead and do that. You may not like the results. We've been there, it was not as good.

Expecting things to be perfect based on lack of understanding and then whinging when they aren't - that really pisses me off.

Have you watched it?

Yes,

I've known that it can do "or" but not "and" for years now, mostly because @BWD on this very site has been patiently pointing that out to everyone who cared to read his posts on every "what jacket?" thread since ohhh, about the dawn of time, and I think I've known about their sharp practices for a while as well - Although I'll admit that's not widely known.

As they guy in the video points out, mostly this is on us, Gore-tex has become a word that everyone uses (including me) when they talk about waterproofing without really thinking about it.

I'll have a watch later on but my experience with Gore compared to other makes of membrane is that Gore is noticably better at breathing and being waterproof.

However I've never tried a waterproof jacket that is as breathable as regular clothing so only wear them when it's raining or when I'm likely to get wet and just accept getting warm and a bit sweaty. 

Take marketing chat with a hefty pinch of salt. 

and I think I’ve known about their sharp practices for a while as well – Although I’ll admit that’s not widely known.

and demonstrably false: https://rab.equipment/uk/mens/waterproof-jackets?

Go count the number of different waterproof membranes on their site.

If you think you’re better off with a wooly jumper and a binbag – go right ahead and do that.

True, although for standing around in torrential rain I'd go for the £1 plastic poncho over a Gore-Tex jacket.

It does breath and keep rain out at the same time as long as your DWR is working. Clearly not as well as if it's dry out, but it does still work.

You could also try eVent and a couple of other fabrics, which are actually tiny holes so are unaffected by humidity.

Had Event, Neoshell and Goretex. My well looked after ME Lhoste is both breathable and waterproof all year round in Scotland. As an aside I dont understand folk that bathe their £30 bike chain in wax but don't look after outdoor kit costing many multiples of that.

Had goretex shoes and boots. Waterproof for about 10 uses, it seems.
Had goretex jackets. Seemed ok on waterproof front, but not exactly letting the sweat out.
Had goretex gloves. Waste of time.

Have yet to experience goretex socks, pants, or hats.

Seems I am about the average experience?

We all know that if you do the sort of high intensity exercise that Gore-Tex can’t cope with; it err…doesn’t work. How is anything in that video a surprise to anyone here?

The world is a big place and Gore-Tex is sold all over the planet.

Not everyone is an STW supergenius.

and demonstrably false: https://rab.equipment/uk/mens/waterproof-jackets?
/p>

Go count the number of different waterproof membranes on their site.

The claim in the video isn't that Gore won't let manufacturers use other membranes at all - indeed it compares proprietary and Gore membranes by Dainese in motorcycle clothing (Dainese's own at half the price performed better).

But Gore does stop manufacturers from using non Gore membranes in their flagship, most expensive products. If they do, the licence to use Gore is pulled.

But Gore does stop manufacturers from using non Gore membranes in their flagship, most expensive products. If they do, the licence to use Gore is pulled.

Do North Face not market Futurelight as the flagship and still use Gore Tex?

My shake dry is the only waterproof top I’ve ever worn that is also breathable. No good for mtb however, and now no longer made

easily the best item of clothing in my wardrobe

Do North Face not market Futurelight as the flagship and still use Gore Tex?

I'd never heard of futurelight, but a 30 second search on the North Face website for waterproof jackets, ranked by price high to low shows their most expensive jackets are Gortetex.

I guess he's too young to have worn a G&H Cagjac. State of the art at the time but hot and sweaty in the dry or wet.

Goretex does work but breathability does depend on the external humidity, as I believe it does with all similar membranes. You can't drive moisture through the membrane into a more moist environment. 

For those not sure if GoreTex or most other modern waterproof and breathable fabrics are any good, can I suggest you buy the cheapest pacmac unbreathable waterproof you can and go for a reasonable pedal on your bike or up a hill. While they will keep the rain out, arguably marginally better in really bad conditions, the inside will be like a window in your bathroom after a long shower. Urrgh.

I've just had a GoreTex Active jacket randomly delaminate in the wash but to be fair it was 8 years old and I probably haven't washed it for two years (which is supposedly worse than overwashing them).

I'd buy another one though. To be fair, every GoreTex jacket I've owned has outperformed the cheaper technical fabrics in terms of waterproofness and breathability.

.... go for a reasonable pedal on your bike or up a hill. While they will keep the rain out, arguably marginally better in really bad conditions, the inside will be like a window in your bathroom after a long shower. Urrgh.

You know this is about a video from a Motorbike channel? No pedalling or perspiring required.

As mentioned above, I get on quite well with GT in socks and boots, less so in jackets (though still OK) but not at all in gloves.

Any ideas why this might be? Is it the more complex shape? The amount of stitching? The difficulty keeping seam taping in place with the constant friction of on/off?

I've had loads of Gortetex mountaineering and motorcycling gloves, from quite a few (well known) manufacturers. Probably at least 10 or 12 pairs. Not one has kept the rain out for more than 2 or 3 drenchings (sometimes failing on the first properly wet trip). I've returned them under guarantee only to have the replacements fail in the same way. To be fair, I've had the same with other membranes in gloves.

There does seem to be a specific technical challenge in making gloves that can survive a proper drenching without leaking in fairly short order. Or maybe I'm just unlucky.

If I could find good quality non breathable waterproofs I would. I find so called breathable waterproofs even when new cannot cope with multiple hours of heavy rain as when you gt a bit cold underneath them then they start to let water soak thru. I have cycled in a full motorcycle non breathable waterproof suit as was fine in it - not getting overheated and remembering the secret to not getting sweaty is ventilation

watched half of the vid. He doesn’t really know what he’s talking about.

Why don’t we just use DWR without a membrane? Well why don’t you go and try that out see how you get on mate? I have and so have a lot of other people.

If you think you’re better off with a wooly jumper and a binbag – go right ahead and do that. You may not like the results. We’ve been there, it was not as good.

Expecting things to be perfect based on lack of understanding and then whinging when they aren’t – that really pisses me off.

+1

Loads of winter cycling gear is built like that with a tight knit DWR outer and a fluffy inner aka "softshell" or "Roubaiux" fabircs. They shed water if you're riding through mist/drizzle, but that's about it.

And people who think membrane fabrics are bad are obviously not familiar with the old coated nylon stuff we had pre-goretex. Goretex et.al. are only only mildly-moist on the inside by comparison!

It's not a "Scam" as such, it's just a trade name for various flavours of lined fabics, how well those actually work depends a lot on how it's configured (garment design), what the envirnoment it's used in is like and of course how warm and moist the flesh sack you put inside it is.

The 'Gore' and 'Goretex' brands have just developed over the years into presumed selling points, with minimal substance behind them any longer, whether or not consumers are wise to that is another question, calling it out in a YT video is a reasonable thing to do IMO, if it prompts consumers to scrutinise their purchases a bit more that must be a good thing.

He’s a YouTube motorbikerist who to me at least, has always come across as arrogant as F.
Don’t generally watch him.

Meh, He's OK I don't think he's "Arrogant" he just has a certain style of delivery, I'm not a motorbikeist but he covers topics that cross over with my own areas of interest and thus the Al-Gore-rhythm has occasionally served up some of his content which I've generally found engaging and interesting.

I find the best way to stay less sweaty when wearing any Gortetex or similar jacket is to make maximum use of any vents, rather than relying on any inherent fabric 'breathabilty'.
My Goretex motorbike jacket and trousers have zipped vents under the pits, across the back, on the thighs and at the wrists and ankles.  These work well.

it’s breathable OR waterproof, not breathable AND waterproof.

Sounds dubious given nearly every outdoor brand with GTX products (that I know of) also uses other membranes in waterproof jackets in their range eg Rab uses 3 or 4 different types IIRC: GTX, Pertex Shield, their own one in their Kinetic jackets, and probably another one….

The information is now 10 years old, but the FTC don't seem to have been happy with Gore's approach. Due to things like:

"I asked dozens of industry veterans and designers about the unprecedented marketing attacks from Columbia and Polartec, and the first thing I noticed was the fear. Hardly anyone was willing to speak about Gore-Tex on the record. When I asked one manufacturer why people were being so coy, he told me, “Everybody hates Gore, everybody needs Gore, so everybody’s afraid of Gore. They can make or break you.” He was referring to an open secret among industry insiders: that Gore’s licensees are afraid to work with non-Gore technologies, lest the market leader terminate their contracts. "

from here: https://www.outsideonline.com/outdoor-gear/insane-membrane/

Maybe they've cleaned their act up now, maybe not

I’ve not found anything better that GoteTex - as others have said, the performance of the DWR coating on their laminated fabrics is critical to its breathability in wet conditions. If it beads, it’s fine (for me), if it wets out, it doesn’t. All laminated membranes are prevented from breathing when the face fabric wets out. Nothing unique to Goretex in that regard, but I’ve found Gore’s DWR treatments to work better and for longer than others.

The Shakedry lacks the face fabric and whatever they use to bind the laminate to the face fabric and so breaths in all conditions better than their laminates.

All waterproof gloves other than Outdry options are flawed as the membrane in in the wrong place in the gloves construction, so gets stifled by wet insulating material.

Let me guess -

Youtuber raises the age-old and well-known point that a jacket covered in rain droplets doesn't breathe as well as it does when it's dry?

Slow clap if so.

I've ridden long distances in proper rain in Gore Active jacket and stayed dry from the rain and not sweaty at all, it's very good stuff and noticeably better than paclite. But if I ride hard in anything like that I sweat, there isn't a breathable hardshell that can cope unless it's very well vented.

My general use rain jacket is Gore Windstopper hardshell, it's not fully WP rated but it's enough to slow down the getting-wet process and it breathes / is vented pretty well. I'd take the Gore Active if I wanted to stay dry in proper rain for a number of hours though.

Shake dry is the only Gore-Tex product that does actually do what it needs to do. Never wets out and breathes like a King.

But you get a bit of frailty in that process. Mind you I've only ripped it once in 4 years and repaired it.

Tools for the job. Gore-Tex isn't one product is it? Most of the big Gore-Tex jackets are for standing around in - for active people they just get too hot. The weak link for these products appears to be the DWR. Massive flaw. They never last and you can't simply fix them with proofing/cleaning products - they're simply not as good as when new and seem to deteriorate quickly.  Shake-dry removes that bit and that's why it works.

Youtuber raises the age-old and well-known point that a jacket covered in rain droplets doesn’t breathe as well as it does when it’s dry?

and explains the history of Gore, and demonstrates why it isn't able to do both at the same time despite the marketing indicating otherwise, and compares it to other brands, and highlights the questionable practices that may have held back other brands.

Seems like a perfectly reasonable 10 min video to me. Of course, you could just wring your hands without actually watching instead

When I first got into mountain biking and used to pound out 35 mile loops Saturday and Sunday morning around the Walton Heath/Epsom/Leatherhead/Dorking bridleways - which got very muddy and wet in the winter.

I would wear mostly HH lifa base tops with fairly cheap Ronhill pertex running jackets - which were fully waterproof but with a lot of vents for running ventilation (across the back, etc - not pit vents). If the weather was really cold I might wear another thin fleece midlayer, although not often.

I thought this worked really well and I never remember feeling the need to upgrade - I was riding hard enough to need to often wash the white salt marks from my helmet straps.

Currently I have a Rab Pertex Shield jacket, with pitzips, that I only use for walking, and I really don't think it is great for breathability, and I am fairly used to the 'feel' of the thinner type of jacket, having had several paclite walking jackets from North Face and Berghaus.

All my riding jackets are eVent which seems to work well in the rain and has never felt 'sweaty'

I've watched quite a few of his videos on YouTube. They're generally very good (I'd defiitely recommend his channel), but they often lack an historical perspective. I only notice that when he's talking about the period that I was really into motorbikes during the late 70s, 80s and early 90s. As a few have already commented, it could be difficult to imagine the revolution that GoreTex represented when it was introduced and became widely available.

Looking at my own wardrobe, I've a variety of waterproof products including, but not restricted to, many with GoreTex laminates. They all have their pros and cons of course - breathability, weight, packability, durability etc. I have had great experience with the Columbia Outdry approach but that still really relies on good venting and availability seems to have fallen off a cliff.

I'm surprised no one has mentioned Paramo yet.

As for FortNine. I do find it hard to get past his smug/arrogant presentation style.

Youtuber raises the age-old and well-known point that a jacket covered in rain droplets doesn’t breathe as well as it does when it’s dry?

Slow clap if so.

Do you realise how easy it would be to answer your own question and save yourself the bother of guessing and being wrong?

I'm from the time when Cagjac (PU) and Sprayway Falcons (neoprene and when Sprayway was a decent brand) were the jackets of choice for hillbashing. PU delaminated rapidly and leaked at the seams, neoprene lasted ages and in the Falcon, was fully taped. Both resulted in the sort of sweaty mess created by a pervy Prince at the local pizza palace...

Along came the Berghaus Mistral in first gen Gore Tex and changed everything - until it became contaminated by body oils, lost its water proofing and was recalled. They then added a layer of PU to protect the PTFE in so doing ****ing the breathability but resolving the contamination issue.

Since then, I've had many different flavours of Gore and other manufacturers breathable fabric garments. Even the sh1t ones have been night and day better than the rubbish we were using in the early 80's.

For standing around/sitting on a motorbike, anything 100% waterproof will do. For working hard, Shakedry is king but not for rucksacks/brambles/falling off. After that, I find them much of a muchness and usually get wet after 3-4 hrs of energetic hillbashing in proper rain regardless of brand or £££'s spent. Cold/dry conditions (1 or 2 days per year in the UK? ), the breathables work fine so long as you don't go too daft pace wise. If you want to push it, Pertex is the answer (or softshell if you must go more modern but usually too warm for me :-))

demonstrates why it isn’t able to do both at the same time

It can. That's what the DWR is for. His demonstration is flawed.

It can. That’s what the DWR is for. His demonstration is flawed.

His demonstration is for Gore-Tex, which Gore market the product as breathable and waterproof. I can't remember Gore ever caveating that with "but only if you use and maintain a DWR"?

Yes, most of the people here get it, but this stuff is constantly being sold off to punters as something near miraculous.

Well quite - the marketing is clearly overstating it. But that's not the same as the product not working.

But that’s not the same as the product not working.

it is when the product is the waterproof and breathable miracle fabric. The product the punter buys should very clearly mention the DWR and what you have to do to it (and a lot do to be fair), but that isn't Gore's area and it's Gore being looked at here

I can’t remember Gore ever caveating that with “but only if you use and maintain a DWR”?

Isn't that on the big black diamond-shaped tag that everyone throws away?

Yes, most of the people here get it, but this stuff is constantly being sold off to punters as something near miraculous.

And how many of those people do you think are using Gore-Tex in the active settings we do? I'd wager that the vast majority is bought by dog walkers or people off to the match. It'll be breathable for them, I'm sure, with a nice label.

For those not sure if GoreTex or most other modern waterproof and breathable fabrics are any good, can I suggest you buy the cheapest pacmac unbreathable waterproof you can and go for a reasonable pedal on your bike or up a hill. While they will keep the rain out, arguably marginally better in really bad conditions, the inside will be like a window in your bathroom after a long shower. Urrgh.

Well yeah if you decide to live in it, but the useful thing you can do with a cheap (packable) 'Pac-a-mac' is to put it on when the rain starts, and take it off when the rain stops 😉

The tendency I see with people who buy expensive, bulky "cycling jackets" is to wear the damn things all the time once the temperatures go below ~15*C, they might work, but IME they're almost as prone to overheating/capturing condensation as any £10 special once worn outside of their optimum operating environment, and won't stuff in a jersey/Gilet pocket, where that cheapy Pac-a-mac will.

Dressing for the temperature (with base/Mid/outer layers, Arm warmers, buff, etc) and carrying a thin packable waterproof layer to shove on in an emergency isn't actually a terrible approach for a lot of Road/Gravel/MTB situations (IMO/IME)...

 

Along came the Berghaus Mistral in first gen Gore Tex and changed everything – until it became contaminated by body oils, lost its water proofing and was recalled. They then added a layer of PU to protect the PTFE in so doing ****ing the breathability but resolving the contamination issue.

That's sort of true, but over the years they've refined the way the PU layer works along with how the face and liner fabrics are glued - using PU - to the membrane, which is one the ways they've engineered better breathability into their fabrics. Note also, ShakeDry, which didn't need a DWR, but has been discontinued. If you could make ShakeDry with a more durable outer using a sustainable, eco-friendly process it would be ace.

Anyway, as a lot of people have already pointed out, Gore-Tex may not be perfect, but if you think it's really 'not breathable', try wearing an old skool vinyl sou'wester or similar and walking up a hill / riding a bike / watching television and see if you change your mind. Windstopper btw, recently 'Infinium' but about to become 'Windstopper by Gore Labs' or some similar bunkum, is basically the Gore-Tex membrane without the PU layer.

By autumn 2015, all Gore-Tex is going to be based on a new, fluoro-chemical free ePE membrane, so it won't be Teflon anymore and matey can make a new video about that instead. I'll say this for Gore, I've been to their Bavarian testing and development facility several times and they are incredibly thorough when it comes to developing and testing fabrics and specifying the way they're used. They're a slightly odd company and can get a bit messianic - stuff like FutureLight and NeoShell are aguably as good or better in some respects - but they are scarily thorough.

Basically it's not as black and white as YouTube unsurprisingly conveniently thinks it is.

I can certainly confirm that Gore-Tex as a motorcycle clothing waterproofing is rubbish.

@BadlyWiredDog testing Gore's new Bavarian products yesterday:

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