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So my faithful Mountain Equipment jacket is finally falling apart. I've always had 3 layer jackets, and have been getting at least 5+ years out of them. Things have moved on since I last bought one (the ME has done at least 10 years), and I'm eyeing up the ME tupilak atmos, which is primarily 20D 2.5 layer paclite with 40D 3 layer reinforcements (and also on sale at the moment...).
Anyone any idea how this type of construction is likely to hold up to all-round Scottish hillwalking use (walking with occasional scrambling in all kinds of weather)? Is something like this going to cut it or will it be dead in a couple of years? I'd rather spend more and have something that lasts than have to replace it in no time. Not that bothered about the weight since it doesn't make a big impact on the primarily single-day outings I do.
Thanks!
IME lighter weight almost invariably means less durable. It obviously depends on how much you use it, one person's heavy use is another persons light use but all else being equal a 300g jacket is never going to last as long as a 600g one. As well as wearing out quicker the lighter jackets are more prone to accidental damage and things like stitching failing. But then a 300g weight and associated bulk saving will be an advantage if you're wanting to move quick with a small, light bag.
Horses for courses innit.
I have just bought the latest incarnation of the 40/80 goretex Tuipilak to replace a Rab Neoshell. It's the business so far this Summer, mores the pity. I would rather have a heavy jacket that worked and lasted, I have had lighter weight jackets and they just get eaten up by packs and rocks. Some mixed reviews about 2.5 layer about as well.
No idea as to what kind of layer they have ..but the best waterproof I've ever had was actually a fleece made by Keela ..
I'm no expert but have one of these top end Gore jackets which seems tough as anything with the Pro fabric, shrugs off brambles that shredded a Morvelo jacket within a couple of rides
to some extent it depends how you are going to use it. If like me you wear a softshell jacket and only put the waterproof on when its raining hard then maybe a lightweight one will be fine. If you like to wear it much of the time then get a heavier one. If you are going to have a big pack make sure its got the reinforced shoulders.
Best I have had in recent years is a Berghaus. I also have a north face for winter use.
The 60 quid decathlon one, brilliant.
https://www.sportpursuit.com/sales/gore-tex-0719?p=2
I've bought a few bargain bits of kit off there over the past few years. You can probably get a goretex pro jacket for the price of a paclite if you look around.
My next winter waterproof will be a Keela.
Scottish winters can be absolutely brutal. No point saving 300g, I'd want an absolutely rock solid jacket
I also hate wearing a waterproof and wear a windshirt or softshell most of the time. But when the weather closes in I'd want absolutely certainty
quite true Ben - thats why I have a specific winter waterproof that is heavyweight plus a summer one which is lighter.
I have an Arcteryx Alpha SV. Super tough and robust and lasts for years. It should do given the initial outlay but there are a few about in the sales depending on your size. One of the few Arcteryx pieces still made in Canada.
Failing that Trekitt have some of the Beta SV (a bit longer and only slightly less robust) on offer at the moment.
Thanks all. I often wear it all day in winter conditions so you have confirmed my suspicions. I've not come across Keela before...more options to consider!
I too have been very skeptical about light jackets.
My ME 3-layer bomber ProShell has been the business for about 7years. £120 in half price sale, amazing value for money. It's now leaking.
The lighter (and £50 in a sale) Montane Atomic lasts 3 years or so, I've had five over the last decade between me and the lads. Not as breathable or ultimately as waterproof, but most of the time just fabulous.
The one that stands out is my work Berghaus Trek Lite - it's now 3 years in and shows no signs of wear or leaking, been proofed once, and just keeps on trucking. Berhaus own fabric. Long like my ME, good hood, great cut. Really waterproof and breathable, it keeps going in my bag. The only bit I don't like are the pockets. Halfway house in weight.
Summary - cost wise, 1x ME bomber = same as 2x Atomic's, the Berghaus fabric seems really good.
I'd stick with 100% Gore-Tex Pro. The latest version's decently light anyway and it's tough too. Just about the only downside is the crisp-packety noise it makes. You save limited weight with the Paclite, the latest version is relatively new on the market and unproven and it won't be as durable as the Pro by some way.
Mountain Equipment's shells have pretty much the best cut out there ime. The Alpine cut works if you're slim / athletic, the Mountain one is more generous, depends on you. The full on helmet hood as per the Tupilak etc - they have two versions I think - is great with a helmet, but a bit loose without. If you're only going to be using a lid occasionally, I'd go for one of the versions with the normal hood, which still accommodates a helmet, just not as comprehensively.
As far as durability goes, it's pretty obvious, but 80D fabric is thicker and tougher, 40D lighter and not quite as durable. ME does its shells in a sort of mix and match combination of fabrics, hoods and cuts, just choose the one that works for you.
My next winter waterproof will be a Keela.
I'd make sure it's not a Munro then, or at least make sure you try one before buying. Massively heavy and cut like a bat-winged sack. People rave about Keela, but I've honestly not used anything as nasty for years. Their lighter stuff may be better, but the Munro is like a relic from the 1970s.
Edit: for all its faults, Paramo works really bloody well in Scottish winter conditions, but it's relatively heavy, warm in temperatures much about freezing and the aesthetics are interesting.
Long shot but if you’re in the North East I just picked up a Berghaus Mera Peak Goretex jacket yesterday in Start Cycles for £99. There were a few left (S/M/XL/XXL) think I got the last L. Good price I thought and seems pretty tough
+1 for Paramo. Unfortunately for me it has to be pretty cold otherwise I boil in the stuff. Not sure about the newer stuff but the older jackets were cut like a sack of potatoes!
+1 for Paramo. Unfortunately for me it has to be pretty cold otherwise I boil in the stuff. Not sure about the newer stuff but the older jackets were cut like a sack of potatoes!
It's improved massively on some models. The Velez Jacket and the Enduro are both a huge improvement on the sack-like cut of stuff like the original Alta - and the new one I think - and the one that was their 'technical mountain' jacket, which was big enough to share with a couple of mates. The Enduro's a cracking wear-all-day UK winter mountain jacket, though you wouldn't want to carry it around in a pack for long. The Velez Jacket's the nearest thing they've come to a relatively light waterproof shell, but it's still around 600g.
One thing I have been pondering on the weight is that waterproofs are now a significant part of my trekking kit - 1kg out of 8! There is very little I can cut to save weight without compromising commfort. a 300g jacket and 200g trousers would save 1/2 kilo!
But then a couple of years ago after 12 hours of rain the kit all soaked thru anyway.
conundrum!
Whether Paramo works for you is down to how you're actually using it and your expectations about what a waterproof garment should do.
I have Aspira salopettes that are unkillable. The new Velez light is a cracking jacket as long as you remember it isn't like other waterproofs.
I have Aspira salopettes that are unkillable.
I killed a pair but it took nearly 10 years of regular winter climbing and ski touring including one slide all the way down Coire an Lochain. I've never had a pair of goretex or similar trousers that stood up to that for more than 3 years so I replaced them with another pair of Aspiras. But, I'd never use them out with the depths of winter and if the forecast is for rain on the walk in I use conventional shell trousers because the paramos just suck up the water, hold it and transfer it through if I lean against anything or do a high step. For snowy, subzero temperatures they're the mutts nuts though.
ME Lhotse for me. Absolutely superb jacket. The fabric is a little stiff but adds to the fortress-like quality of the jacket when used in the worst weather.
Used to have a Paramo but always found it a bit heavy and hot, plus I tend to think they leak a bit in strong winds and rain.
For a lightweight jacket I'd be tempted to try on of the Rab Kinetics. My wife has one and it's lovely and soft and stretchy although I'd have doubts about its robustness and longevity.
For me, keeping dry and longevity are two separate things.
IME, regardless of how much is spent or if it's 2/2.5/3 layer, I still get wet in continuous rain after a few hours. It doesn't matter if it's Gore Tex/Pacshite/Event or home brew from the various manufacturers, I still get wet. This means, for me heavier does not equal drier so I tend to go fast and light and replace more often.
I do have a couple of 500-600g full weight jackets for climbing/winter mountaineering/Alps use but I think these are more of a throwback to how we used to think about kit rather than a necessity.
Having written that, it's reassuring to cinch down into a bomb proof cag when the weather is vile and blowing a hoolie.
Boblo - I had that last year. In the end the conclusion I came to was that I had got cold therefore no vapour pressure to push water vapour back thru the jacket leaving it to soak thru over a few hours. Next time I am in that sort of situation I shall make sure I am warm and see if the warmth keeps the jacket working.
I must admit a part of me wishes for the old days of non breathable waterproofs that really were waterproof
Aye but when it's freezing cold, blowing a hoolie but dry, GoreTex is fantastic - you just don't get wet so long as you don't go too mad. In the old days (PU or Neoprene - PacJack era...) you'd get soaked from sweat condensing.
I think we're better off now just not as well off as W M Gore etc would have us believe...
My wettest ever trip was a 3 day 2 bought bikepacking trip in the lakes, we had a 30 minute window of no rain climbing out of Hawkshead, otherwise it trained the whole time. Truly horrendous weather. I used a paramo third element jacket and was perfectly dry. Quite amazing really, anything else would have really struggled
I use a berghaus gore tex pro jacket for winter, and a range of other waterproofs in other conditions. My bikepacking jacket is a columbia outdry, it's very waterproof and has survived a crash or two OK
Another Paramo wearer here. I use the New Velez on my bike and out walking when it’s wet and blustery. They are quite a bit lighter than they used to be. And colours are much improved!
Main advantage for you would be the fact they are very easy to repair. Just stitch it up or send it back to Paramo and they’ll fix it for not much.
Yet another Paramo user!!
I wear the Enduro jacket and trousers for all winter activity in Scotland, walking, climbing, piste and touring skiing. I would not go back to Gore text or similar.
The new design Paramo kit is much better fitting and lighter than it used to be. I run very hot and sweat loads but can mostly cope with the jacket on and all zips open.
As mentioned above if you damage Paramo it is easy to repair. Just remember to wash and proof regularly.
You see lots of folk wearing Paramo in Scotland, it really can suit our climate.
I am not saying that you should wear Paramo, just not to dismiss it out of hand. Myself and many others love it for winter Scotland.
Guilty of prejudice here. I've always seen Paramo as a bit like Buffalo on steroids... Buffalo always seemed a good idea until you stopped (generating heat) and then you quickly realised you were soaked and rapidly getting cold. I haven't tried Paramo but remain deeply sceptical.
I haven’t tried Paramo but remain deeply sceptical.
Low energy activity, cold weather, people who don't sweat much, activities that don't involve leaning against things. Those are the situations/users it works for. I also wondered if they had a QC issue for a while so polarised is opinion on them.
I used Paramo for Scottish Winter climbing and Alpine skiing. It would have to be really cold for me to wear it for biking. Even in the Arctic a couple of years ago during the Rovaniemi 150 at -16C it would have been too warm for me.
Aye sounds more and more like Buffalo+.... That's what they said about Buffalo ~30 years ago...
Why is no one talking about neoshell anymore, I was under the impression it was the best of everything but especially breathability
I have a Paramo Halcon jacket and it's fine for light rain but it's absolutely not waterproof enough for foul weather activities, whereas my old Berghaus goretex is about 15 years old and still going strong.
I've a Neoshell bike waterproof and it's really good. It seems as good as my Shakedry but I use the latter when I might need to carry it as it's really light and compact which Neoshell isn't (in comparison).
I'd just like to apologise for mentioning Paramo in the first place. Sorry.
Worth a look at Decathlons Simond range. Bought shell trousers and jacket last year perfect for Scottish ski conditions!
When I used to do a lot of winter mountaineering in Scotland, I lived in TNF Mountain jacket and salopettes, was their top of the range kit at the time. 2 layer GTX (before Pro existed) and completely bomb proof. My current hard shell is a TNF Point Five NG jacket, which has the best beading properties of any jacket I've ever come across - it just won't wet out no matter what.
Was a Paramo fantoi until I used a Gore Pro jacket. AMAZING bit of kit which coped with subzero to super hot conditions in some really testing conditions.
Well, I've ended up ordering a marmot spire from sports pursuits. Finances played a big part since this was half-price, but is a gore-tex pro based jacket for peanuts. Now just to see what the fit is like when it turns up....
I'd love to stick with ME since I've been really happy with my previous jacket, but if the Marmot is ok then I have more £££ to spend on other goodies!
I looked up Keela, but the reviews for their 'headline' munro jacket weren't great. Sound like it's used by MR teams since they get a stupidly cheap deal on them, rather than them being what they would choose to use...
MR are using Jottnar up here, quality kit.
Sound like it’s used by MR teams since they get a stupidly cheap deal on them, rather than them being what they would choose to use…
That's usually the case. Also, kit that's good for MR isn't necessarily good for leisure use.
I have the Keela Munro. It is my winter jacket. For big mountain days in the winter it is superb. It is designed to work effectively with no concessions given for fashion. 8 hours of snow and sleet. Windchill of minus 15. No problem for it, stays dry. The people who comment negatively about it usually consider walking for 2 hours in the rain on a man made path to the top of a viewpoint hill like Conic hill etc to be the Great Outdoors. If you want functionality and good protection with something that lasts a few winter seasons I'd recommend. I wouldn't use it outwith winter though, or anything other than walking.
The people who comment negatively about it usually consider walking for 2 hours in the rain on a man made path to the top of a viewpoint hill like Conic hill etc to be the Great Outdoors
wouldn’t use it outwith winter though, or anything other than walking.
Did have to chuckle at that. Given your second point you could have climbers, bikers, runners,ski tourers and serious mountain users in spring, summer and autumn being critical of the jacket not just Conic Hill ramblers!
And there's nothing wrong with being a Conic Hill rambler. It'll come to us all some day.
Also, 1.1kg, that's more than my tent weighs!
Have a look at this video review of the Keela Munro, around 8.58 onwards he does some flapping about and you can see just how much excess fabric there is under the arms and in the sleeves. The cut is iffy, huge amounts of material where there's no need for it, which is one of the reasons it weighs around 1100g. Anyway, each to their own. As I said in my earlier post, if you're thinking about a Munro at least try it first to make sure you're happy with the weight and cut.
Yeah I would rule the jacket out for runners, bikers, ski tourers. In my opinion not great for a high tempo activity. Climbers may use it, but as pointed out there is a definite weight penalty. It is ideal for MRT duties, if you do similar to this then the Munro would be ideal, anything else it really isn't suitable/better alternatives.
Never seen anyone wear Jottnar. Looks good equipment but the prices are steep.
If it works for you that's great. It wouldn't work for me though.
There's a wide range of kit available these days and most of it is pretty good so it's all about working out what's best for your usage.
ovewr a kilo? Jeepers I am hoping to save a bit of weight on waterproofs not add a load!
Never seen anyone wear Jottnar.
I actually think Jottnar might be a money laundering front. Massive PR budget but tiny sales, what else explains that? 🙂
I should add that my insulation clothes are bulky. Buffalo Special 6 shirt. The Munro fits over nicely, I suspect because of the generous cut. If your insulation layer is more tailored this may result in a more baggy fit.
ovewr a kilo? Jeepers I am hoping to save a bit of weight on waterproofs not add a load!
Make you strong, like ox 🙂
Spin, my mate has their main hardshell jacket,as he is in Tayside MR. It IS a quality piece of kit but pricing makes Arcteryx look like Go Outdoors bin end if you were paying for it. Oh; and it's made from their own material....which for near £600 I would expect to be made from the hide of baby pandas.
Keela Munro is my go to shit weather jacket.
Saying that i've been happy with some tog24 kit.
If the conditions look that way I'd rather an extra few x00g for the comfort, 8kg or 10 kg makes little difference in my experience.
Hey there,
Been through the same issue lately also acutely aware of plastics plus very fed up with branded stuff not lasting the distance. Anyway I started looking at ventile jackets.
Their key advantage is that they are waterproof by the weave of the fabric and not waterproofing itself. Anyway why not support a Scottish company designing for Scotland:
https://www.weatherwisewear.co.uk/ventile
So far the one I have has taken some real onslaught of coastal weather and not leaked yet.
Best regards
JeZ
Ventile though has other down sides such as wetting out and then not drying...
Hey there, yet to experience that so far and I'm a walker and ex scout instructor. It may not be perfect but so far a damn site better than other jackets I've had. I walk all year and in all conditions.
JeZ
I have a ventile jacket that I used for skiing for years. The only issue I ever encountered with it was when the weather was really inclement and the jacket was working hard, I went into a cafe and took it off and hung it up. When I went back to it, it was completely soaked through. Lesson learnt. In future when the jacket was covered in snow etc I took it off outside and left it with my skis. Never had an issue then. Sure it was cold and uncomfortable to put back on but was back up to temperature after the first run.
Anyone I know who used ventile back in the day is quick to point out how much better modern fabrics are.
I am quite tempted by one of those massive poncho things made of non breathable but properly waterproof stuff - does not need to be breathable because of the open gap around the bottom - however in a gale I fear ending up flying in it!
I am quite tempted by one of those massive poncho things made of non breathable but properly waterproof stuff – does not need to be breathable because of the open gap around the bottom – however in a gale I fear ending up flying in it!
yes, on the Cairngorm plateau in 120mph gusts, I can see it going horribly wrong...
I'd imagine they'll be shite in even a 20-30mph wind, so most days.
Knee-length PU cagoule (bright orange obvs) and gaiters. Sort of worked, until it was windy.
yes, on the Cairngorm plateau in 120mph gusts, I can see it going horribly wrong…
If you're out in the Gorms in 120mph winds the poncho wasn't your first mistake but it might be your last!
🙂
Remember that scene from the wasp factory?
If you’re out in the Gorms in 120mph winds the poncho wasn’t your first mistake but it might be your last!
We used to go out deliberately when storms came in, just to practice being in it so that if we ever got caught out for real we'd be calm and able to navigate when tired / at night whilst being knocked to the ground with every gust. Did quite enjoy it if I'm honest....
I am quite tempted by one of those massive poncho things made of non breathable but properly waterproof stuff – does not need to be breathable because of the open gap around the bottom – however in a gale I fear ending up flying in it!
Suit you sir...
https://hilleberg.com/eng/shelters/bivanorak/
Thats the badger!
I have quite a lot of ventile. Double layer big Snowsled jacket, single layer Hilltrek smock, single layer but lined everyday Howies jacket, single layer westwinds trousers
They definitely have their place but for me they suit general time spent in the outdoors, rather than stuck up a mountain in bleak conditions. I'd rather have ventile than a cheap 'wateproof breathable' jacket, but I'd rather have a proper membrane or paramo jacket instead of ventile
Plus when ventile gets wet its bloody heavy and stiff. It's much nicer stuff to wear in everyday conditions though
I've been stuck in some pretty catastrophic weather in ventile. Yet to get wet I'm using a single layer type. The double layer ones supposed to be awesome. In any case the whole discussion proves it's a personal choice thing. I did have a vote Tex jacket of old and that was much better than the later ones I've had. I guess if I spent as much on the goretex jacket as I did on ventile I'd probably have as good jacket.
JeZ
Well, I’ve ended up ordering a marmot
Ive bought a couple of Marmot jackets with a decent discount in Blacks recent sale and so far they seem good jackets. I run pretty warm when I'm out stomping with the dog and so far they've breathed well, the DWR coating is good and has stopped it wetting out.
I also have a Keela Lomond for dog walks to the pub. Brilliant quality for the money but the hood sizing is the same for all the jacket sizes so is a bit small for my football head. Wrote to Keela who said they would custom make me one.
You've got the approach to the 'massive ponchos' all wrong.
Try cinching in the waist for the best results.
Apparently these are 'all the rage' in Kilsyth...
https://images.app.goo.gl/gFrCLWbtYdCpuAoC8
Does older goretex lose it's waterproofy-ness? Wore my old gore bike jacket the other day and could feel my arms getting wet.
Yes.
The DWR coating washes off over time.
The GorTex membrane gets clogged.
The membrane breaks down slowly so stops working.
I've just chucked a great ME jacket as the shoulder and lower arms just would not keep me dry anymore.
Just taken delivery of an Alpkit Balance. It's what I'd describe as a lightweight fullweight, definitely a proper jacket, not an uberlight running thing but not a bombproof winter climbing shell (I've got one of those).
I got it because I'd gone through a few lightweight running jackets and either they didn't provide quite the protection / performance I was looking for in Scottish winter conditions or they fell apart pretty quickly. This looked to be a good compromise between weight, cost and performance / longevity. Looking at it I'd be happy out in full on winter in it but it weighs in at 350g so only 100g heavier than the OMM Kamleika it's replacing.
Off on a 4 day bikepacking tour in the Higlands so I'll be able to let y'all know how it works pretty soon!
I bought a super light weight Black Diamond GTX shell, "Mono Point" IIRC. Very handy as a packable emergency jacket for summer, but as thin as tissue paper. Already had to repair a small hole it, material is just too thin to take even mild abuse. I mainly carry it in my courier bag in case I get caught out cycling to/from work....
In that vein, I have a Berghaus Hypersmock 2.0 that permanently lives in my commuting rack pack. It's very small and light so I don't notice it in there really. I use it whenever the rain is too much for a little gilet (likely to need it on the way home tonight). Perfect for that use. But if I crashed in it I'd definitely kill it! And it wouldn't stand up to rock or anything similar.
Another weight-saving item that has appeared on various YouTube channels I've seen is the rain kilt. It'd have to be a coldwet day in Hell before I went for that particular look.