[Closed] Goodbye to the cashless society...

I’m assuming that the cost of card payments is suddenly too high for them.

Do I detect a heavy degree of sarcasm there?

Only one place I’ve been to recently asked for cash all others are still cashless, same for the last 3 months.

I'm not quite sure of what you're being sarcastic about but I can't remember ever seeing a Turkish-style barber that takes cards.

Our ones in town usually do. I've always given a tip in cash if I do use my card rather than rely on the management to pass it on to their staff.

You tip your barber?

FWIW if imagine any switch to cash is, at the generous end, down to cash flow rather than cost. Some card payments can take quite a while to process. At the more cynical end I'd guess it's more to do with management not passing it on to the exchequer, continuing furlough for people actually working etc. But that's me being cynical.

Just bought a big issue using Garmin pay.
Happy 21st Century

I would assume the cost of lost business is higher. I've not carried or used cash since the pandemic began. If you don't take cards I'm going somewhere else.

At the more cynical end I’d guess it’s more to do with management not passing it on to the exchequer, continuing furlough for people actually working etc. But that’s me being cynical.

Not cynical, as it's the same shops around here who are taking cash only who also seem to frequently have card machine 'issues' at other times!

My barber insisted on cash yesterday.

I was cash only until COVID, now I have a card machine as an option for payments.  I was surprised at just how reasonable the charges can be.  IANAB

I would assume the cost of lost business is higher. I’ve not carried or used cash since the pandemic began. If you don’t take cards I’m going somewhere else.

If they can fill their capacity with cash customers they haven't lost business.
That said, I share your opinion that I'll only be patronising establishments that are paying their tax bill.

If that's what they need to do in order to stay in business then I'd say crack on.

My window cleaner is now bank transfers only. Saves him having to chase around in the evening and weekends for his cash.

It's hard to justify how any business cannot take card payments today.
Bank charges are minimal and probably less than the cost of handling cash.
Those taking cards and cash are the ones with the highest costs.

Bank charges are minimal and probably less than the cost of handling cash.

we know what the real reason is - theres no cost attributed when your not banking the cash.

but then the self same people are the ones moaning about not being supported during the gov mandated shut down......

Some high horses being ridden in this thread! 🙂

Of course. Maybe linking VAT registration to cashless would be a good idea.

If that’s what they need to do in order to stay in business then I’d say crack on.

Yeah, I suppose if Amazon can avoid tax, then its OK for the small shops to evade it.

(that's sarcasm by the way)

Amazon pay exactly the amount of tax they legally have to pay, it’s not right but thankfully the EU has closed the loopholes, not paying the tax you owe is not comparable.

I’ve not carried or used cash since...

...flippin' yonks ago.

not paying the tax you owe is not comparable

If only that were true. It just goes by a different name and the wealthier you are the better your accountants and more 'efficient' your tax liability becomes!

In a way yes Woody but withholding payments is illegal using tax loopholes is using the law to your favour.

The only local place I can think of that doesn't take card is a very small local baker - they have a really basic old till - digital, but think mid-90s rather than anything that scans or uses such hi-tech things as heat transfer receipts.

Everywhere else is card & quite a few takeaways that were cash only are now accepting cards from what I have seen on FB etc.

You tip your barber?

I do too. Am I wrong?

we know what the real reason is – theres no cost attributed when your not banking the cash.

but then the self same people are the ones moaning about not being supported during the gov mandated shut down……

I tried to say the same on another thread to my peril 😀

Cash is much more expensive to process through your business bank account than card/electronic payments. Some small businesses may take their cash takings and use it to pay their wholesaler, the local corner shop for example, but even this is being phased out by the likes of Bookers as they then have the cost of having that cash collected and banked. The only reason for lot of businesses to take cash now is:

At the more cynical end I’d guess it’s more to do with management not passing it on to the exchequer, continuing furlough for people actually working etc. But that’s me being cynical.

Of course there will be some people that prefer to take payment in cash and fully declare all income correctly and legally.

You would think that all those businesses that previously bent the rules in their favour but then found out it bit them in the arse when the covid help schemes were announced and based on declared income would have learned their lesson but I doubt it.

I do too. Am I wrong?

Maybe, maybe not, I've honestly no idea, just never occurred to me people would.

That said as shining example of male pattern baldness I've not been to a barber's in some years and congratulating & tipping myself for successful use of a set of clippers seems a bit narcissistic.

Tax avoidance vs Tax evasion innit

Doesn't seem to be a correlation in the Turkish ones round here, about 80/20.

My friends who run small businesses are still rattling on on Facebook about the scourge of cashless society. It all seems a bit tinfoil hat, you'll have no control/access to YOUR money - well no, but then unless you keep it in your mattress that's not really that much different to now. You might have a small amount in your wallet but not as would make much difference.

But they do all claim that the cost of card payments is an issue for small business. I suggested that having to take cash to a bank to pay it in was a cost that should be considered, and an inconvenience but apparently I know nothing and they do that for free because it is so much fun. That's before you consider the security improvement of not having a counter full of easily removed difficult to trace cash.

I avoid our local Greengrocer even though it's cheaper than the Coop as it was cash only till CV-19 hit. I just think Tax dodger when it's cash only.

*dons flame suit* some of these Turkish barbers (at least around here) are fronts for other criminal "shenanigans". That cash isn't going to clean itself.

Physical money as in coins and paper just seems like a weird and old concept to me. The sooner it’s gone the better.

but then the self same people are the ones moaning about not being supported during the gov mandated shut down……

no they're not. Anyone not banking their cash knows why they're doing it and they'd be cutting their own throats drawing attention to the fact by moaning

there are plenty of people moaning about any lack of parity of support but its not the cash in hand businesses.

Its interesting that its so much of a given that barbers and hairdressers tend to be cash only - hairdressers in particular - they're not cheap either in terms of cost of transaction or the sum of readies someones likely to have in their pocket. A friend of mine had her hair done for the Baftas - pulled out all the stops a bit and it didn't become clear til the end that the hairdresser would only take cash.. which she didn't have. The hairdressers didn't want her to leave without paying - ie go to the cashpoint-  and take her hair with her. It was a peculiarly glamorous hostage situation.

*dons flame suit* some of these Turkish barbers (at least around here) are fronts for other criminal “shenanigans”. That cash isn’t going to clean itself.

Even for the purpose of other shinnangans like money laundering - taking only cash makes no sense. You can use any sort of service based business to launder money- but the point is to make the money look clean by feeding it in to a stream of legitimate earnings. The point of money laundering is to have a means to feed illiegitmate cash into a bank and as a result.... pay tax on it.

I didn't say it's just them moaning.

But around here there are more than a few folk being vocal on Facebook about it operating historically cash businesses and how they are not being supported....others have just ignored calls to shut and people still use them...... Burger vans on industrial estates for example seemed to divide between moaning about lack of support and just not closing.

I was chatting to the guy in a (cash only) 'Turkish' barber, not my usual place - turns out they were actually all Romanian in there. I hope they were at least getting paid minimum wage. :-/

The problem with lots of cash knocking around is you are vulnerable to getting robbed for it. Unless a busy barbers off loads the money throughout the day then they could easily get caught with a few grand at the end of the day which is easy money to a couple of thugs.
I remember when we worked on the building sites 30 years ago and everyone got paid in cash...500 people collecting their pay on a Friday was bloody risky business for the payroll dept who had a few hundred grand in cash in the site office.
Also was chatting to one of the street food vendors last year who worked a big festival and the van next to them was followed home one day and robbed on the doorstep for a huge chunk of money.
I know one or two . Ahem.. horticulturists who aren't too keen to see cash phased out though.

Burger vans on industrial estates for example seemed to divide between moaning about lack of support and just not closing.

Burger vans on industrial estates have never been required to close. The shut down didn't effect food for take away.

a few folk being vocal on Facebook

Oh well, just idiots then maybe 🙂 Unless they are moaning specifically that they are excluded because they're blackmarket and live on undeclared earnings  then it may well be the case that they've run their cash only business totally legitimately and still been shafted for support.

Maybe, maybe not, I’ve honestly no idea, just never occurred to me people would.

if your haircut was 8 or 9 quid, you wouldn't just tell them to keep the change? its never occurred to me people wouldn't.

Interesting how many small businesses like what seems to be all the local barbers and kebab shops/takeaways have suddenly stopped taking card payments and want cash.
I’m assuming that the cost of card payments is suddenly too high for them.

Local turkish barber started taking card payments in Jan, because all the local cashpoints have closed.

Sumup/Square/etc make it very simple, fast to receive the cash and as far as I can see pretty cheap (40p on a my haircut). Financially probably more of a risk that you get chargebacks/complaints, but then is that more of a risk than dodgy notes?

Local Chinese takeaway stopped taking cards about a year ago (and haven't restarted despite covid). I assumed they had financial issues when they stopped. I'm now more cynical and suspect they are not putting all sales through the books, and probably paying some staff off the books as well. It is the best Chinese in town though... Most of the others have some sort of App which will be taking far more of the sale price.

I don't make purchasing decisions on haircuts or takeaways on price - so would not object to either adding a few pounds to the price to cover their transaction costs and lower throughput.

Burger vans on industrial estates have never been required to close.

Indeed. But when majority of the businesses around you are closed who's using you ?

Knock on effect.

Case in point there's one I use near my office on a Friday maybe once a month although I run past it daily pre lockdown

It's always heaving pre lock down and on a Friday you can wait 30 minutes for food.. I used it twice since lock down started due to lack of other facilities near by(ie they were closed) It's still cash only and I was able to get food in less than 5 minutes even though he cooked it while I was on site.

While there is a charge for card payments many businesses will want cash or to charge for small items. In the Local chemist 2 days ago, their minimum card payment was£3. Luckily I had the £2.80ish in change.

I avoid our local Greengrocer even though it’s cheaper than the Coop as it was cash only till CV-19 hit. I just think Tax dodger when it’s cash only.

I'll stick my neck out.

As a former Bank 'Manager' and underwriter who worked for a time in an Accountancy Practice. You might be right.

I'm sure there are small business out there who diligently account for every penny, who keep meticulous records of their sales going back years on their EPOS systems, but I think they're the exception rather than the rule.

The amount of times when I was in banking and we turned down a lend the customer would say "oh, do you want to see the 'real' books?" or how many times we were asked to take bundles of cash to settle finance (carrier bags full at times) or how pretty much every cash-business we had in the accountancy firm would ask "how much money can I show on my books?".

if your haircut was 8 or 9 quid, you wouldn’t just tell them to keep the change? its never occurred to me people wouldn’t.

I always found it odd that the prices of everything managed to remain in multiples of £5.

There's a lot of small business owners who don't see the costs of things they do, they only see the cost of what they get charged. So they see the cost of accepting a card payment and see what they're charged by the bank to handle cash and think cash is cheaper but don't take account of the time it takes the business to handle cash (count it, bag it, visit bank etc).

Firm I used to work for provided free tea, coffee etc and every couple of days a director would toddle off to Tesco for 30-40mins and come back with 4 litres of milk. Another company quoted to supply us with the refreshments but were rebuffed because their quote was more expensive than the £10 a week we were currently spending - completely failed to take into account the hours of time of a director salary (£75K) that was lost each year. I must have been drinking the most expensive cups of tea in Britain every day.

Chinese takeaway in our small market town (no actual market) only takes cash, always has in the 11 years wev'e been here. Not that I use it.
Dunno what bank charges are for taking cards nowadays but when I was self employed with a petrol station the charge for taking a credit card was 2.5% of the transaction. I was only making 5% profit on petrol sales! When debit cards came along they were 10p per transaction.

Don't think I'm going to have a choice - the bank branch closed 3 years ago and the two cash machines I used have been boarded up.

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Tax avoidance vs Tax evasion innit

Exactly. Don’t here many people on here complain about the C2W scheme.

Some will probably have let their card payment services lapse during the lockdown, and are now waiting to see whether it's worth restarting it if things stay quiet. Taking cards is easy now, but it still costs.

Exactly. Don’t here many people on here complain about the C2W scheme.

You bloody do - tiny maximum spend and no top-up; can't just buy a grand's worth of carbon wheels; ...

Don’t think I’m going to have a choice – the bank branch closed 3 years ago and the two cash machines I used have been boarded up.

This is the way things are going. Banks don't like running smaller branches as they cost more to maintain and staff than the income they bring in and cashpoints only make sense if they have high usage or can charge £1.99 per withdrawal. Banks are moving towards one large branch in the main town in each area full of self-serve machines and cashpoints will only be at branches, supermarkets or other prime spots with high usage.

The current advice to use contactless where possible will only accelerate this.

Don’t think I’m going to have a choice – the bank branch closed 3 years ago and the two cash machines I used have been boarded up.

Yeah, right.

We’re about to enter a world where we’re going to have far, far higher unemployment than we saw at the end of the 80’s.

Good luck with your cashless society

In the economy we’re about to enter, wads of notes is going to be where it’s at, and a lack of bank branches and cash machines isn’t going to make any difference to that.

There’s only going to be one part of this countries economy seeing any growth in the next couple of years. The ‘cash only’ black economy with nothing going through the books.

Welcome to the brave new world. 1980’s style

80’s? What you on about Binners, I reckon it’ll be more of a WW2 style black market economy. I’m stocking up on nylons and chocolate

I can't remember when I last used cash.

I always ask if card or contactless is acceptable and if not I head elsewhere, which is pretty rare now TBF.

The only places locally that take cash that I know of are the Kebab place at the entrance to the big industrial estate I used to work on, and the small barber shop down the road that I used for a short while, but don’t any more since I cut my hair off and bought clippers.
The Kebab place (it’s not so much a van, more a rectangular caravan-type thing with one open side), is busy as hell, enough businesses were open through the shutdown, and he’s just off a major junction of the A350/A420, so plenty of passing traffic.

pre covid I always used cash - I simply find it easier to control my spending and as a minor aside with my tinfoil hat on I prefer to leave a smaller data trace. Now I am obviously using cashless a lot of the time and I don't know if I will go back

I’ve been cashless for years, in both senses...

I only use cash for haircuts (but now do my own) and the lottery at work. I find it much easier to track spending with plastic thanks to all the apps that are available. I also get Section 75 protection on larger purchases and cash back from the card and Quidco. Double win.

I know a window cleaner who only takes cheques.

He doesn't declare his earnings fully.

if your haircut was 8 or 9 quid, you wouldn’t just tell them to keep the change? its never occurred to me people wouldn’t.

If your shopping was 8 or 9 quid would you tell the person behind the counter to keep the change?

Each to their own but tipping is just stupid for anything. Is it evenly distributed? Do chefs get a cut, do receptionist? They all play a part on services at different places, tips usually only end up with the front man/woman.

Just charge a price that allows a fair wage for all involved.

.....tips usually only end up with the front man/woman.

Not true IME although it varies from business to business and there are some greedy bastards who don't share tips with staff.

I like being able to tip when I feel I have received good service and my personal opinion is that people who make a big deal out of never tipping use it as an excuse to justify their own meanness!

The amount of times when I was in banking and we turned down a lend the customer would say “oh, do you want to see the ‘real’ books?” or how many times we were asked to take bundles of cash to settle finance (carrier bags full at times) or how pretty much every cash-business we had in the accountancy firm would ask “how much money can I show on my books?”.

As we suspected

Firm I used to work for provided free tea, coffee etc and every couple of days a director would toddle off to Tesco for 30-40mins and come back with 4 litres of milk. Another company quoted to supply us with the refreshments but were rebuffed because their quote was more expensive than the £10 a week we were currently spending – completely failed to take into account the hours of time of a director salary (£75K) that was lost each year. I must have been drinking the most expensive cups of tea in Britain every day.

I suspect directors knew exactly what the costs and opportunities were. The idea that one of the directors takes responsibility for providing refreshments to the staff is powerful. I'd also guess that the director was doing other things whilst getting the milk.

I’d also guess that the director was doing other things whilst getting the milk.

My wife works in a posh hotel. All cash tips are handed in and distributed even amongst all the staff based on the hours they work. The only exception is if a guest specifically mentions a member of staff on checkout.

Tips are taxed at source.

I suspect that not all the tips make it to the pot though.

Physical money as in coins and paper just seems like a weird and old concept to me. The sooner it’s gone the better.

Now is the perfect time to get rid of cash all together. Make every transaction accountable through a bank account.

A lot of self employed friends returned to work very quickly even though the government was paying them 80% of their tax returns!

Not declaring all your work and not paying tax is the same as benefit fraud (in my book) it's stealing money from the government which could be used for services etc. However, because they are working it's not seen as the same and everyone does it so its OK.

Problem comes when the low declared earnings and everything written off by clever accountants means they then become entitled to claim tax credits!

Ban cash! Move into the 21st century.

My rant over!

On tipping

In a restaurant always tip in cash. If you add it to the bill you pay cashless then sometimes the servers do not get it.

In hotels I leave cash in the room for the cleaners

I remember going to an Indian restaurant in Mansfield with some colleagues and asking for a vat receipt after our meal to claim our expenses. The guy looked perplexed, said they couldn’t give us one as they weren’t vat registered! I can’t remember the vat threshold at the time but it might have been £70k turnover pa. there were at least 3 staff there on a weds eve. Found it hard to believe they could turn over less that £70k once they bought ingredients, Rent, power, staff etc.

I was payed cash for a small job before corona came about and I've not been able to pay it in because the "local" branch is only open 9.30-3.30 seemingly random 3 days in the week and not Saturdays! So to pay it in means me loosing about 3 hours of a working day. I can't pay suppliers with it, can't use it personally (don't want to) use the cash as cash, don't want coins change, so I've just got it in my bag incase I go near somewhere to pay it in. At lease with cheques I can scan them in with banking app.

The banks don't want cash and I think its just pushing the black market and cash jobs more because the people are becoming trapped in to a cash way of working. There is no incentive to make the switch to cashless for the people who using it.

In Gibsons dystopian future there is a theoretically cashless society but in actual fact a huge parallel economy using old cash thats supposed to be withdrawn for circulation but has been hoarded and then cycles round the black economy

I remember going to an Indian restaurant in Mansfield with some colleagues and asking for a vat receipt after our meal to claim our expenses.

So you were fiddling your expenses and they were fiddling VAT, cool! 😛

A lot of self employed friends returned to work very quickly even though the government was paying them 80% of their tax returns!

That's because the self-employed were not required to stop work even though they were given a grant - the gov specifically pointed this out.