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https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47282603
Another well paying company exits the uk, for whatever reason, 3500 jobs going it appears plus contractors and suppliers.
A real loss to Swindon but not a huge surprise - Honda has been losing market share to other manufacturers for many years now - their product design is dated and price wise Nissan and the Korean brands are beating them.
Honda are moving all manufacturing for EU markets back to Japan which probably makes sense in the long term given the recent EU / Japan trade deal reduces the tariffs for Honda to export to the EU.
Thank God. I was starting to think your CAPSLOCK was broken.
Some will no doubt place this squarely as resulting from Brexit; but Honda has already said - they have been running little over half capacity for quite awhile. Now they can export to the EU with little or no tariffs, it simply doesn’t make sense to base themselves in the UK or EU. Seems the Japanese are preferring home to abroad.
Making Japan Grest Again.
Brexit innit ?
🤷♂️
Actually, makes an awful lot of business sense doesn’t it.
The thing about this EU-Japan trade deal is that it was all done at commission level. Britain could have had a say and even a veto but.
It will work well for some countries with wine and cheese exports to Japan expected to rise about 30%. The main hits will be taken in the UK as far as I can work it out. And that would have been the case even if the UK had remained, but the deal probably wouldn't have been the same if Britian had had any input during the 2017 phase of negotiations.
Now they can export to the EU with little or no tariffs, it simply doesn’t make sense to base themselves in the UK or EU. Seems the Japanese are preferring home to abroad.
If only that that could be done in some sort of agreement here from the UK.
Feel sorry for those lost their jobs. Sucks.
Now they can export to the EU with little or no tariffs, it simply doesn’t make sense to base themselves in the UK or EU.
Yes it does - manufacture close to your market, of course. And it makes even less sense to move a plant you already have up and running, unless there's a compelling reason to do so e.g. Brexit.
I wonder if Japanese cars are now going to be 10-20% cheaper in the EU than in the UK now?
Since the 80's Japanese uk Car manufacturing has always had ups and downs, but has always weathered the storm.
But something has tipped the balance...mmmm wonder whats changed recently. Any ideas?
Yes it does – manufacture close to your market, of course
Yeah, and their EU market is in decline so keeping an expensive plant and local supply chain running at less than optimal capacity doesn’t make sense.
Terrible shame, but the global car market is in some turmoil at the moment with the writing on the wall for traditional petrol and diesel cars and the need to completely transform their global manufacturing and supply chains to start building hybrids, EV’s and even driverless pods as governments wage war on personal transport. Honda is probably fighting for its life.
wobbliscott
...Honda is probably fighting for its life.
Possibly. So not a good time for Brexit to give them a firm kick in the ribs to encourage them to stop trying here.
governments wage war on personal transport
Do explain.
governments wage war on personal transport.
About time too, given all the problems it creates.
Honda have said they don’t sell cars in Europe. Logical then not to build the in Europe
Think they just said 150,000 units in Europe as opposed to 2n units in North America/Japan/China
From the BBC’s reporting of Honda’s press conference:
“Honda said the move was due to global changes in the car industry and the need to launch electric vehicles and had nothing to do with Brexit.”
If the government had any ability to think beyond Brexit they would be picking up the phone to Tesla and seeing what it would take to get Tesla to set up operations in Swindon. Although honda’s plant is relatively small (159k cars / year) that might work quite well for Tesla given they are not going for high volume / low margin.
Haven't Honda always been a fairly niche car manufacturer? Certainly not one of the big boys. And their UK range of cars is pretty small.
They'll probably work together with the likes of Suzuki and Subaru eventually.
If the government had any ability to think beyond Brexit they would be picking up the phone to Tesla and seeing what it would take to get Tesla to set up operations in Swindon.
Why would tesla set up in the UK? Their market would be europe not the uk alone, and setting up in the UK would incur tariffs to mast of that market, the UK government would have to subsidise them at least to offset those tariffs, which brings me back to my comments on another thread.
the corporate benefits bill is going to make the social benefits bill look like loose change with all the incentives that are going to be offered to keep companies in the UK, and it still might not be enough to overcome the non financial complications.
But thats ok in tory land, because the money goes to shareholders and not needy people.
and besides that, as the major car manufacturers bring their own electric cars to market, tesla will be wiped out. It is kind of a shame as they have pushed the technology forward and shown it's capabilities, but they are also low quality expensive junk.
Yes it does – manufacture close to your market, of course. And it makes even less sense to move a plant you already have up and running, unless there’s a compelling reason to do so e.g. Brexit.
except that they are something like 19th in the league tables of car sellers in the EU, so not much reason to stay, and I thin they made four models in Swindon at one point, but 3 have been moved elsewhere already.
So very little to do with brexit.
“Why would tesla set up in the UK? Their market would be europe not the uk alone, and setting up in the UK would incur tariffs to mast of that market, the UK government would have to subsidise them at least to offset those tariffs, which brings me back to my comments on another thread.”
For many of the same transfer pricing and corporation tax reasons that led to Dyson automotive setting up manufacturing in Singapore.
If the government had any ability to think beyond Brexit
With a typical turn this this will end up as a political thread.
I will answer that though.
Sucessive UK Governments in the UK don’t look further than thier 4yr lifecycle.. never have, never will.
Sustainability and long term plans are for those with a brain and a social responsibility. Neither are present in this current government, and they were lacking in the previous iteration.
For many of the same transfer pricing and corporation tax reasons that led to Dyson automotive setting up manufacturing in Singapore.
Hooray, the corporate takeover of government will be complete, we may as well stop voting and just let the corporations appoint our rulers.
Some of us would prefer to have some protection from that kind of culture, you may of course welcome a return to a victorian lifestyle and working conditions.
With a typical turn this this will end up as a political thread.
3500 direct jobs lost, at least as many indirect, you think that shouldn't involve politics?
The writing was on the wall when they stopped selling the Accord in UK / Europe.
Shame really, I love mine.
Can't move for Hondas here in Australia - the small SUV (HRV) is very competitively priced - significantly cheaper than its peers.
I've got one, its ace.
3500 direct jobs lost, at least as many indirect, you think that shouldn’t involve politics?
Meh. No-one GAS when TATA closed the Redcar Steel plant down, same number of people lost thier jobs there. S’pose just because it was in the North East eh.
But because this plants in the Sunny South Midlands it makes all the difference.
Meh.
The writing was on the wall when they stopped selling the Accord in UK / Europe.
Shame really, I love mine.
Not really. They stopped selling them, like the Legend before as the market in this country for large saloons was shrinking and as they were made in Japan the tariffs made them too expensive to compete.
LOL at all those saying Honda are a small car manufacturer as well. Stay safe in your little England bubble.
Meh. No-one GAS when TATA closed the Redcar Steel plant down, same number of people lost thier jobs there. S’pose just because it was in the North East eh.
Pure BS, people did care, in this case the losses are realistically related to the complete ineptitude of the current situation. The UK government is making this problem worse by trying to deliver an impossible brexit while denying anything is going wrong.
The corporate takeover of government happend along time ago. https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/p04b183c/adam-curtis-hypernormalisation
If the government had any ability to think beyond Brexit they would be picking up the phone to Tesla and seeing what it would take to get Tesla to set up operations in Swindon.
Why Tesla? Get a true blue British company like Dyson in there.
Oh wait...
Meh. No-one GAS when TATA closed the Redcar Steel plant down, same number of people lost thier jobs there. S’pose just because it was in the North East eh.
If anything there was bigger uproar but let's not do facts.
Haven’t Honda always been a fairly niche car manufacturer?
Not really niche in Europe, though definitely not a big player. In the states they are big. I think the Accord is like the Focus is over here - everybody has had one or knows somebody who has. I think the CRV is the biggest selling SUV of its size, world-wide.
The EU-Japan deal has removed the Trojan horse reason for manufacturing in the UK, and with the changes afoot in car manufacturing the company needs to decide where it is going to concentrate it's development of newer technologies. Given the uncertainty of the UK, Japan makes more sense. Toyota next?
Can’t move for Hondas here in Australia – the small SUV (HRV) is very competitively priced – significantly cheaper than its peers.
Is that one made in Mexico?
So the 7th biggest car manufacturer is now niche?
Great cars. Be interesting to see how the trade deal impacts other Japanese firms that are a little on the pricey side. I asdume most have plants around Europe though so maybe it won't change prices much.
Shame to see another large manufacturer leave, but I doubt it's down to Brexit even if it might have sped up the timeline.
As usual though, the government will have no credible plan to replace jobs and will probably end up heavily subsiding someone to move base.
Is that one made in Mexico?
No idea, sorry.
It’s blue, if that helps?
Can’t move for Hondas here in Australia – the small SUV (HRV) is very competitively priced – significantly cheaper than its peers.
UK buyers all have a hard-on for anything German for some reason, even though cars made elsewhere are often better made. Status-symbolism has much to do with it.
If the government had any ability to think beyond Brexit they would be picking up the phone to Tesla and seeing what it would take to get Tesla to set up operations in Swindon.
there is an EU Battery Inititaive that the European Comission are pumping £bns into that we are now going to be outside too
I know theres a UK effort, but I suspect itll be like the UK gammoneo GPS alternative.
Would Honda have stayed if we hadnt brexited, we'll never knbow for sure nut they were very clear when they gave evidence to parliament that WTO rules we are 44 days away from, would make UK production non-viable
Since the 80’s Japanese uk Car manufacturing has always had ups and downs, but has always weathered the storm.
80's Japanese cars rusted to dust at the mere mention of stormy weather.
UK buyers all have a hard-on for anything German for some reason, even though cars made elsewhere are often better made. Status-symbolism has much to do with it.
This was my first non-German car - I’ve always had company cars in the uk.
The hrv was the equivalent of 13,000 gbp over here - which is about the same as a basic polo.
It was even significantly cheaper than the equivalent Toyota or Mazda (by about 5k gbp) and hugely cheaper than the equivalent Subaru.
The build quality is quite Germanic actually
Honda is niche? Heard it all now.
No electric car? Well, no but that's nothing particularly uncommon. If anything electric is niche. They have had the Insight hybrid and Clarity fuel cell cars in production for almost 20 years as well as hybrid and ethanol powered Civics.
I don’t know what you guys are on about,
I’ve heard Honda are leaving on thier own Accord..
I’ll get my coat
HRV in Europe is built in Mexico
HRV in Australia is built in Japan (and apparently better...)
HRV in Europe is built in Mexico
HRV in Australia is built in Japan (and apparently better…)
Oh really? Will check when I do the school run tomorrow and report back
I started writing a post, but saw this on Twitter which covers what I was going to say. Lots of factors going on besides Brexit, but it certainly doesn't help.
https://twitter.com/RobinBHarding/status/1097756788588335106
I'm a remainer and Honda fan so I'm really disappointed by the news - but the UK (and even Europe) is a very small part of Honda's global car output. The fickle EU market wanted diesel power forcing the Japanese firms to spend a fortune developing modern diesel engines years after Japan had moved on from them, only to now flip back the other way.
Building cars here makes sense if the finances do - but Honda have been dwindling in the UK for a while and Brexit brings a whole load more risk and cost that they can do without.
Sadly predictable large job losses are predictable. Previously borderline business case becomes nonviable. And, it'll be three or four times the Swindon plant by the time the whole supply chain is cleaned out.
Thing is closing down that size of investment will be expensive in and of itself, so that's not an easy decision Honda have made. Even if EU market is not key for them, if they were selling different types of powertrain outside the EU, and they weren't about to be stuffed by new taxes, they might very well have retooled and reskilled, and made parts for other sites to use.
I can only expect more of this kind of delightful news in the near future.
The thing is that I can spend a full minute repeatedly saying "It is nothing to do with Brexit" in my head, like some kind of Orwellian Mindfulness and after that minute is up it is still no more believable than it was before.
Quite how a lot of people are achieving their level of self-delusion really worries me - is it some kind of superpower?
Pure BS, people did care,
Meh, didn’t see this much fuss back then.
And now? **** all has been done to regenerate that part of the country.
You are right, let’s not let facts get in the way though eh.
So, be good to see what this current crop of inepts do about local regeneration when Honda lock the doors.
Of course, let’s not let facts get in the way eh.
Meh.
One other point is that sales have been falling in Japan, as well as Europe. So if Honda are to rationalise it makes sense to close a factory on the periphery and bring that production back to the core where there is also spare capacity, all other things being equal. Now that there is no import tarif advantage to manufacturing in Swindon (or indeed in the EU) then Japan makes sense.
The idea that Japan gave up diesel years ago doesn't ring true. Until about 20 years ago diesel cars weren't really almost unknown in Britain or Japan. They were more widespread in Germany and in particular in France for bigger cars such as Mercedes and things like Peugeot 504s, but mainly for taxis. They were just too noisy and slow for private cars. The Golf Mk3 TDi was probably the first of the fashion for diesels in ordinary cars. Note the redundancy of that "i".
Meh, didn’t see this much fuss back then.
It was everywhere. And rightly so.
As for the diesel squirrel … 9/10 cars coming out of Swindon are petrol.
As a side note, we are cutting ourselves out of a European wide push for electric vehicle production… so the big news isn't the ending of current lines… it is that future lines will not be built here. The UK car manufacturing industry will be utterly destroyed by Brexit. We'll make close to zero mass market vehicles come 2030.
Meh, didn’t see this much fuss back then.
Ah! I guess it didn't happen then as you didn't see it.
And now? **** all has been done to regenerate that part of the country.
You are right, let’s not let facts get in the way though eh.
No one has claimed otherwise or did you not see that?
But the there is this.
Goodbye Honda Motor Car Manfacturing.
Hello Geely ... 🙂
Your Volvo XC70 ... that's theirs. 😀
Hello Geely …
Or Goodbye the British Auto Industry, nobody has a reason to set up in the UK over the EU now. Those that are here will be making decisions about where they invest next.
I drove through Birmingham at the death of rover, so many houses with 2 Rovers on the drive and jobs at the plant. The hit to the local economy was huge.
Back in 1978, Leyland closed the almost new Number 2 plant at Speke Liverpool producing the TR 7, it was only open for 8 years and workers staged a 17 week long strike to stop its closure, this was the first major Closure of any newish plant in the uk, closely followed by numerous steelworks/potteries/ rail works, glass works/foundries and other engineering bases etc.
Honda may well be the first this year, followed by JLR, Toyota, Mini and Vauxhall,add in British Aerospace at Broughton and we will have a huge waste of highly skilled trades and office based staff.
The BBC seem very keen to say "not because of Brexit", whenever the headline is repeated (radio4), even when then having an expert on to say, "the Japanese don't know what we're doing, because of Brexit, and don't trust anything we say now, because of Brexit."
Honda are also closing down their factory in Turkey at the same time.
Also on top of this Honda Japan will have cut it's production for the Japanese market by 24% between 2017 and 2022.
Car sales in Japan have been falling for some years because of the ageing population.
Hello Geely … 🙂
Your Volvo XC70 … that’s theirs. 😀
Geely bought london taxis international (Black Cab) in 2010 when i was there and then shut press shop and body in white down and imported shell from china from then on .... Bye bye job 🙁
They probably get sick of the leavers screaming it’s not Brexit Kelvin.
The BBC seem very keen to say “not because of Brexit“
Presumably because that corresponds with what was said by a senior executive of the company in a BBC interview - unless you are a conspiracy theorist that would appear to be a pretty good first hand source and dare I say, probably better than an independent expert.
From an article out there
But a statement from Honda didn’t mention Brexit.
Next up, not really a statement that Brexit has nothing to do with it
In an emailed statement to CNBC, a spokesperson for Honda said the challenges due to uncertainties around Brexit remain.
"We still continue to see challenges in the future relating to Brexit. As we have previously mentioned, our desired outcome is frictionless trade between the UK and the EU, access to the right talent and regulatory alignment."
Perhaps a softly softly approach to retain those pensioners driving CRV's and not upset anyone too much, it's not normal for Japanese companies to stick the boot in, generally preferring a more diplomatic approach.
I'll read into my tea leaves mefty, you keep going with yours.....
Even if it is nothing to do with brexit (and that is a pretty big 'if' and a massive coincidence) then brexit is squarely to blame for the lack other companies investing and recruiting to take up some of the job losses.
dannyh
Member
The thing is that I can spend a full minute repeatedly saying “It is nothing to do with Brexit” in my head, like some kind of Orwellian Mindfulness and after that minute is up it is still no more believable than it was before.Quite how a lot of people are achieving their level of self-delusion really worries me – is it some kind of superpower?
Not a superpower at all; its merely called listening to facts from those who know (the person actually running UK Honda) instead of just ignorantly repeating its all down to Brexit like a demented war cry.
On one hand Remainers cry Wheres your facts to back the evidence up - in the next they all conspiracy theorists, and know the real reason behind things ...
mooman
...On one hand Remainers cry Wheres your facts to back the evidence up – in the next they all conspiracy theorists, and know the real reason behind things …
Obvs you believe everything you are told? Do you remember when Kraft said something about no job losses.....
Pretty obvious that people who love Brexit will claim it has nothing to do with it, and remainers will claim it does.
The reality is that a business decision like this consists of many factors, but it's clear that the fact that their products could suddenly become 10% more expensive for no reason is going to weigh heavily in the negative column. Ridiculous to claim otherwise. Likewise incorrect to claim it's purely down to Brexit.
This is how Brexit will play out. It will make the UK that little bit less favourable in every situation, and we'll get slowly left behind.
Presumably because that corresponds with what was said by a senior executive of the company in a BBC interview – unless you are a conspiracy theorist that would appear to be a pretty good first hand source and dare I say, probably better than an independent expert.
Or intact Honda themselves, when they gave evidence to parliament ...
Always seems odd to me why any company should answer anything to Parliament.
If I was running Honda in the UK, and made this decision, I’d just make the statement they pushed out and prepare to close the plant down.
No need to talk to anyone, at any perceived level they may think they have, about a decision made to leave the UK.
Quite what gravitas or influence Parliament may think it has, they’re just another bunch of people sticking thier noses in where it isn’t required nor asked for.
Always seems odd to me why any company should answer anything to Parliament.
Because they are not above or beyond scrutiny, in that case I assume it was part of the UK car industries submissions to the UK government about the impact of Brexit - as in they wanted to give that information
Quite what gravitas or influence Parliament may think it has
Really?
Not a superpower at all; its merely called listening to facts from those who know (the person actually running UK Honda)
What like this one?
"Howells added that despite the potentially negative impact a no-deal Brexit would have on Honda’s UK operations, its Japanese owners have no plans to move production away from Swindon."
Quite what gravitas or influence Parliament may think it has
Really?
Yeah really.
What power do you think they hold over company’s reasoned decision?
Do tell, keen to hear what power you think they have.
None, i’ll Save You the bother.
What are you actually on about bikebouy?
What are you actually on about bikebouy?
That's a question I often have when reading his posts.
Meh.
You know exactly my point, but that’s fine.
🤷♂️
No I don't actually, the statements referenced were given voluntarily to a select committee, nobody has asked Honda to make a sworn declaration as to their reasons.
Remember what Minford said…
Pffft! What do experts no.