[Closed] Good speech by David Cameron

Mr Cameron said the independence issue had to be dealt with simply, saying: "We have to settle that question before then going on and asking, I think quite legitimately, is there more that we can do to improve the devolved settlement?
"Are there powers that could be devolved, how can we make the United Kingdom work better?"

Why wait Mr Cameron? If you have some proposals, put them on the table in time for 2014 and let the Scottish public decide what they prefer?

We were promised a "better bill" in 1979 in return for a No vote. That didn't materialise either..

I thought they are supposed to be put to hard labour ...? No? 😆

I'm a bit disappointed in myself to say that I'm bored of it all now. The debate needs more razzamatazz; perhaps Salmond should put Susan Boyle in a glittery St Andrews cross bikini and get that woman DANCING :D. At this rate, Scotland will get independence and anyone not Scottish will just say "Oh".
Shows how fickle and attention deficient the public generally are.

it would be sad if scotland left the union

but with cameron and his cronies in charge who can blame them for wanting to leave

I s****ed as I heard him talk about how much stronger we were becaus eo fthe Union

I could not help but think ..imagine if th eunion he was talking about was European would he asy the same?
It is interesting that many of those who are the most anti the European Union also seem to be most pro the Uk union

What I would say is they like a union where they are the most powerful and get some additionality from little members but not one where they are just another fish in the pond and often get outvoted

Good point that.
I sat through wondering what Welsh & N. Irish ( and channel islands etc.) were thinking.

I'm all for the scotch having independence. But, I believe that if there is a referendum for them to leave, for which only scotch people are able to vote.... and is rejected; then the rest of the brits should have a referendum as to whether they can stay.

put Susan Boyle in a glittery St Andrews cross bikini and get that woman DANCING

I wish you hadn't written that. I've just eaten.

AndyP - Member

I'm all for the scotch having independence. But, I believe that if there is a referendum for them to leave, for which only scotch people are able to vote.... and is rejected; then the rest of the brits should have a referendum as to whether they can stay.

does that go for the falklands as well? 😈

There should be no referendum for the Falklands, just a big fight. See other thread.

No comment yet from Mel Gibson

I was thinking about this on the way in this morning. We often here the Scots' arguments for independence, which are mainly down to self-determination.

The English/Scots unionist counter-arguments are often along the lines of why Scotland couldn't manage as an independent country - 'how are you going to afford it, you're in net reciept of money from Westminster' etc. This is about how independence won't work

Both sets of arguments are essentially about the pros/cons of independence/union on Scotland.

What we rarely here are arguments about the pros/cons of independence/union on the Union as a whole.

put Susan Boyle in a glittery St Andrews cross bikini and get that woman DANCING

I wish you hadn't written that. I've just eaten.

Anyone handy with photoshop? I reckon we could get him to wretch at the very least.

Isn't half the problem about deciding who exactly gets to vote?

Rose tinted 'Get the invaders out' from those scots people living outside of Scotland, slightly more economic realism from those living in Scotland?

MPs are stuffed as well - All the scottish tories have had to come South to get into parliament, Labour would lose a whole bunch of westminster seats if Scotland was independant...

[i]All the scottish tories have had to come South to get into parliament, Labour would lose a whole bunch of westminster seats if Scotland was independant..[/i]

sounds like a win/win to me.

tobyToby - Member

Isn't half the problem about deciding who exactly gets to vote?

No - those living in Scotland and eligible to vote in Scotland. the only question is that its SNP policy to include 16 and 17 yr olds ( lib dem policy as well apart from for this)

[img] http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSBaOOioE37GL8LjGIZZy9XxdA190rk-LaMc6YLHI79t49ijqI10MqB-GmPqw [/img]
Come to daddy my scottish lovely.

TandemJeremy - Member

tobyToby - Member

Isn't half the problem about deciding who exactly gets to vote?

No - those living in Scotland and eligible to vote in Scotland. the only question is that its SNP policy to include 16 and 17 yr olds ( lib dem policy as well apart from for this)

Same as national or local election as the two are different.

[i]Well I am one Englishman here who would like Scotland to stay in the union.
What do you other Brits think?[/i]

I'd prefer to keep, maintain and respect the Union of Great Britain.

However, my Scotish brothers seem hell bent on spliting things up.
I never really understood the intense hatred the Scotish have for me, an English man.

I would hope its not for historical reasons as events which occured undreds of years ago, are now beyond my control.
😉

I could not help but think ..imagine if th eunion he was talking about was European would he asy the same?
It is interesting that many of those who are the most anti the European Union also seem to be most pro the Uk union

Fundamentally different though, no?

[i]I would hope its not for historical reasons as events which occured undreds of years ago, are now beyond my control.[/i]
Jealousy, pure jealousy. They long for skin which isn't blue.

[i]Jealousy, pure jealousy. They long for skin which isn't blue.[/i]

[img] [/img]

isn't he an aussie?

Wallace - quite clear - Those living in Scotland and eligible to vote in Scotland IE no expat votes.

Dunno what yo think the difference is apart from that? something I have missed?

Scotland should stay, if only to keep Wales company in the 'England is not the same thing as Britain' club.

maybe they should start a facebook group?

(there probably already is one...)

be shot by crossbow

Long bows as we're English. Don't the targets need to be close to the cathedral too?

Send a toff in a top hat to convince them to stay in the UK?

Call me Dave has never be so in favour of Unions since they ensured he would be in power for 2 terms by selecting the wrong Miliband.

[i]I'd prefer to keep, maintain and respect the Union of Great Britain.[/i]

Why? Not stirring or trolling, it's a genuine question. As an Englishman living in England, I'm not sure I really care what the Scots do. Not out of malice, I simply don't understand this concept of 'union' that seems to be so important.

Well listen to the speech then and have another think

And please no photoshop magic, I still feel full

TandemJeremy - Member
Wallace - quite clear - Those living in Scotland and eligible to vote in Scotland IE no expat votes.

Dunno what yo think the difference is apart from that? something I have missed?

I believe that voting in local elections and General Elections is different. For example, EU citizens who are not Commonwealth or Irish citizens cannot vote in UK Parliamentary elections but can vote in Local election, although they permanantly live here.

Everytime he opens his mouth on the topic the SNP gain more members and the polls for a yes vote increase.

[i]Why? Not stirring or trolling, it's a genuine question. As an Englishman living in England, I'm not sure I really care what the Scots do. Not out of malice, I simply don't understand this concept of 'union' that seems to be so important.[/i]

[img] [/img]

We're in it together.
Drawing a line on a map in order to separate a people who all speak the same language and live on the same bit of rock.
Just seems silly.
You can refer to yourself as English, Scottish, Welsh.
But lets all stay mates.
Voting to be separate isn't very neighbourly or friendly, imo.
Is all.
I grew up in times when the Union felt better and more positive.
Those spectacles may have a rose tint.
But why so much hate from the Scotts ?.
I've read comments on here and it seems that they really hate the English.
If true. thats everyone's loss, imo.

Its nothing to do with hating the English in large part.

Its about self determination. Its about wanting governments and policies that reflect the will of the people. Its about being able to have the correct policies for the economy of the country.

tories are an irrelevant minority here and Labour are the rightwing party

momentum_2000 - Member
But why so much hate from the Scotts ?.
I've read comments on here and it seems that they really hate the English.

[i]Its nothing to do with hating the English in large part.

Its about self determination. Its about wanting governments and policies that reflect the will of the people. Its about being able to have the correct policies for the economy of the country.

tories are an irrelevant minority here and Labour are the rightwing party[/i]

Not looking for trouble, your rep preceeds you.

However, that post betrays what appears to me as an entrenched perspective, from which a view has been formed.

If you subconsciously accepted that you were part of the family, then you'd already feel part of the process of self determination, as part of our Union, not as a Scot, in Scotland, ie, not an English in England.

Anyway, I've cast my vote.
I'm pro Union of Great Britain and anti break-up.
🙂

Momenteum - I was born in England of English parents. I have a [i]very English [/i]accent. I have lived in Scotland 30+ years now - and I have come across very little enmity at all for many years.

However, that post betrays what appears to me as an entrenched perspective, from which a view has been formed.

I am not really sure what you mean with this. Scotland has a different political consensus to England. Its one of the drivers for independence.

Its nothing to do with hating the English in large part.

momentum_2000 - Member
But why so much hate from the Scotts ?.
I've read comments on here and it seems that they really hate the English.

I can only speak for myself. Have many English friends, lovely people, very friendy. Beautiful country too. But still like my country (as I believe it to be a country) Scotland to have more powers of self determination. Do I want independence - well, not made up my mind.

As I said, love the English people, though have a few issues with the media and the football/sports commentators!

Lets not kid ourselves, there are a minority of Scots with anti English views.

It as nothing to do with hating English. But we're as close culturally and economically to london as we are to the moon. I'd happily take everything north of Birmingham, and call it The Peoples Independent Republic of Northland. It would need to have Scottish access laws.

Let's see. Scotchland is that bit just past Manchester, isn't it?

Everytime he opens his mouth on the topic the SNP gain more members and the polls for a yes vote increase.

Its all a cunning reverse ferret plan.

By "unintentionally" upsetting the Scots and encouraging them to cecede, he gets rid of a load of interferring scottish parliamentary mps, thus condemning Labour to permanent electoral opposition! Win!

He just has to make it sound like he's a one nation tory....

It as nothing to do with hating English. But we're as close culturally and economically to london as we are to the moon. I'd happily take everything north of Birmingham, and call it The Peoples Independent Republic of Northland. It would need to have Scottish access laws.

Druudh, it comes down to Small things like wanting any team that plays against an English one to win, like when Argentinian (see what i did there) wine sales went through the roof in a world cup, the comments made by Scotish people about the English (although it's [i]Positive[/i] racism so it's ok...

I am not really sure what you mean with this. Scotland has a different political consensus to England. Its one of the drivers for independence.

Do you think most scots have thought as thoroughly about the benefits of the union, as they have about the benefits of going it alone?

it comes down to Small things like wanting any team that plays against an English one to win,

Aye, but thats just sporting rivalry. The same way I want Celtic to lose to everyone they play. And its only football and rugby really. Have never heard of anyone caring how England do at Cricket for instance.

transapp - Member
Druudh, it comes down to Small things like wanting any team that plays against an English one to win, like when Argentinian (see what i did there) wine sales went through the roof in a world cup, the comments made by Scotish people about the English (although it's Positive racism so it's ok...

You want to bring sport into it too? Rivalry between Scotland and England in sport is like Man Utd and Liverpool, or Chelsea, Arsenal etc. Don't try to conflate that with some sort of racism.

[i]I'd happily take everything north of Birmingham, and call it The Peoples Independent Republic of Northland. It would need to have Scottish access laws. [/i]

I'd go with that. I'd have to move home to vote for it though 🙁

momentum_2000 - Member
...I never really understood the intense hatred the Scotish have for me, an English man....

No hatred. I like most English people I know. There are a few morons, but you have them too (BNP?)

It's an ingrained belief in self-determination and liberty.

As long as we are "subjects" of an unelected head of state and not citizens, and all legislation has first to be filtered through a non-elected upper house, then we do not have true self determination or any real freedom.

This is an issue the whole of the UK should be resolving, but at least an independent Scotland would be free of it.

If Cameron wants to keep the Union then he should be restructuring it.

The first step being devolution for England, ie create an English government instead of them having to suffer under the existing system where they are an afterthought in the whole of the UK. The English could keep their unelected politicians if they wanted. I think the northern regions of England may benefit from a government which concentrated on English issues, although they could secede and join the Scots 🙂

Then create a federation for the UK with each kingdom and principality having its own government. The UK government being for the external powers needed for a country, eg defence, diplomacy, so Cameron would still have a job. 🙂 Preferably locate the federal government in a greenfield town to all the federated states (ie not London).

Fat chance of course, but it works well enough for Australia.

It's the only way I see the union surviving.

We would probably take everything bar the south east to be honest.

I wouldn't care if the Scots voted for independence, it would just be one more country we'd have to conjure up a reason in order to grab their oil...

but with cameron and his cronies in charge who can blame them for wanting to leave

With Salmond and his cronies potentially in charge who can blame us for wanting to stay!

Don't think for one minute that independence is a certainty. I know it's hardly scientific, but a staw poll of family, friends, colleagues and riding chums suggests the vast majority are quite happy with the union. Admittedly that's mostly Edinburgh which is hardly an SNP hotbed.

I've read the comments, especially Epicyclo's.

Seems to me then that there is a fixation with a notion that Scotland is seperate from the rest of the island.
I can't see that from space, but hey ho.

In my opinion, a Scots man is no more let down and misrepresented by someone in Westminster as I am.

Seems to me that for hundreds of years our forefathers worked to blur the lines, the borders, in order to reinforce and strengthen the Union.

To get everyone to buy into one national identity.

Now Wales and Scotland only seem interested in creating their Govs and breaking it all up.

I did wonder if Gov can be effective and useful for such small populations, but then I recalled places like Monaco.
I guess there may be an analogy there as well as other places the channel Islands perhaps.

It just won't feel the same if this devolution thing goes all the way.
(Obviously)
And I just can't help thinking that it will be something lost.

Still, if it doesn't work out, we can all become friends again, supppose.
Though its not nice knowing your neighbours want rid of ya.

😉

kennyp - most polls show a small(ish) majority for keeping the union depending how the question is asked but I wouldn't want to bet my house on it either way

momentum_2000 - Member
I've read the comments, especially Epicyclo's.

Seems to me then that there is a fixation with a notion that Scotland is seperate from the rest of the island.
I can't see that from space, but hey ho.

In my opinion, a Scots man is no more let down and misrepresented by someone in Westminster as I am.

Seems to me that for hundreds of years our forefathers worked to blur the lines, the borders, in order to reinforce and strengthen the Union.

To get everyone to buy into one national identity.

I did wonder if Gov can be effective and useful for such small populations, but then I recalled places like Monaco.
I guess there may be an analogy there as well as other placesm the channel Islands perhaps.

Still, if it doesn't work out, we can all become friends again, supppose.
Though its not nice knowing your neighbours want rid of ya.

On eu and what would happen after an independence vote which has been debated before

THE remaining parts of the United Kingdom would have to renegotiate their European Union membership if Scotland voted for independence, senior European sources have said, saying both countries would become “succession” states within the European community.

EU legal experts say both Scotland and “RUK” – the remainder, of England, Wales and Northern Ireland – would be treated the same by Brussels, with both having to renegotiate continued membership.

Lots of unnamed sources but the scotsman is reasonably reputable and not given to backing the SNP unquestinably
http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/scotland_and_rest_of_uk_would_have_to_renegotiate_eu_status_1_2116803

....giving RUK an ideal platform to renegotiate. Best possible outcome IMHO.

Druidh.

I haven't failed on anything.
Just tipping in my 2p worth.

I think you've missed something, but it ends here, for me.

Nothing else to give.

🙂

To get everyone to buy into one national identity.

This is the fail.

momentum_2000 - Member
Druidh.

I haven't failed on anything.

kennyp - most polls show a small(ish) majority for keeping the union depending how the question is asked but I wouldn't want to bet my house on it either way

I did say mine wasn't a scientific poll, and given a lot of my friends do work in and around Edinburgh's finance and IT industries it's probably not surprising there was a strong bias towards staying with the UK.

I did think David Cameron's article in the Scotsman today was very well thought out.

momentum_2000 - Member
...In my opinion, a Scots man is no more let down and misrepresented by someone in Westminster as I am.

Seems to me that for hundreds of years our forefathers worked to blur the lines, the borders, in order to reinforce and strengthen the Union.

To get everyone to buy into one national identity...

You are welcome to continue to be let down by someone in Westminster, that doesn't mean we have to be.

The Union came about after huge bribes were paid to the Scots MPs, it was never universally accepted. A quick look at the subsequent history of Scotland will demonstrate that. Wide scale rioting after the union, a readiness to join in any rebellions evidence this. It took a genocidal government policy in the Highlands followed by forcible clearances of the people in the Highlands to subdue the country.

Prior to WWII, there was an element amongst the nationalists to follow the Irish method. There were still remnants of this around when I was a lad.

Although it had long since been discredited as a tactic by the SNP, I'm sure there's still some of those diehards around. I suspect this is what Salmond was referring to when he was taking pride in what has been achieved so far has been without a drop of blood.

The lines have never been seen as blurred up here.

I'm not bothered one way or the other about Scotland gaining independence, but you do have to wonder about some of the practicalities.

Leaving the union would probably mean leaving Europe, at least until it was accepted as a new member. European funding (regional development/ agricultural etc) would dry up and there might even be duties levied on goods such as whisky.

Oil revenues wont be there for ever, what happens then?

What happens to RBS?

etc, etc

ianv - there has already been some pretty good debate on these subjects. Worth doing a wee search on the forum if you are genuinely interested.

i suspect it will make bugger all difference to me either way. So, I'm finding it difficult to care.

Thanks for caring enough to let us know you don't care.

It's quite alright, I do curiously feel that I should care about not caring, and feel vaguely bad about my lack of concern......

You know when people talk about "respect" and that as being a a reason behind some of the disaffection felt in Scotland.

Scotch Scott Scotish Scotchland

Oh and the "hate" i believe that there is some anti-english behaviour from some quarters but it's the in England. I lived there for four years and saw a fair amount of anti-Jock behaviour.

I also think that there is a fair amount of media hysteria (just see the Culcutta Cup match a few weeks ago, it was pretty nationalistic on both sides and repeatedly talked of the Auld Enemy).

Good speech by David Cameron

Has he resigned, and gone to live in social housing.

I'd like us to be independant of the union, As I think it's time we grew up as a nation, get rid of the chip on the shoulder, and be the 'great wee country' that we could and should be.

I too have no anti-English feelings, indeed I find it all rather embarrassing when rags like the daily retard or scottish sun spout their pish during football tournaments and the likes.

We have the highest intravenous drug use in the western world, Areas of Glasgow have lower male life expectancy than Palestine, and that's before you even start to talk about the drink, obesity and smoking problems.....

I'm not laying those problems at the unions door, not at all, But I feel a government in Edinburgh would be better placed than Westminster to try and tackle the issues head on. It's a gamble, no doubt about it, But one I'd like to take.

We seem to think of the union as the norm, when in fact, it is quite the opposite.

It is going to cost millions and probably some more millions. There are more important things that should be being discussed.

Let the fish swim free ... then buy all their lands and property after that put them to hard labour.

ianv - I linked to some discussion of the EU above.

Dont care one way or the other providing one simple condition.
If a state within Britain wishes to have devolved powers and choose how it provides public services it should be funding those policies from its own states population and taxation on business within its own boundaries.
What is unfair is to demand devolved powers and use taxes rasied in another state to offer your own population something that the wider union cannot afford,, ie the current situation is unfair.
Love Scotland but if you want great social policy pay for it yourselves.

nwilko - scotland is a net contributor the the UK.

nwilko - Member
If a state within Britain wishes to have devolved powers and choose how it provides public services it should be funding those policies from its own states population and taxation on business within its own boundaries.

I would like to say, there is no hatred. I love England. Beautiful place and any where I've gone I've met really nice people. But... the current UK government does not reflect the voting pattern in Scotland. Imagine you are at a party and whilst you like the people there, the guy on the decks won't play anything you request. Quite simply, the party is over, and some of us would like to leave. When we have a party, we'll still be happy to have you over.

It is interesting that many of those who are the most [s]anti[/s] pro the European Union also seem to be most [s]pro[/s] anti the Uk union

FTFY