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Scottish land fund has given the local community a grant to buy it after they raise half the money
Really good news - the most recent owner shut it over winter but its essential to the tourist trade and locals
A couple of years ago my nephew was there midweek in may - and it was shut
I had feared it might be lost but it now looks safe
Ignore the usual daftness in the grauniad talking about scotland " 18 mile walk over mountains and bogs" - its actually a good path the whole way
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/oct/14/scottish-community-awarded-500000-to-buy-britains-remotest-pub
IIRC the "goodwill" is yet to be assessed so there is no guarantee that the locals will have sufficient funds to complete the purchase.
While I'm not convinced that it's the best way to spend £500k of public money, something does have to be done about supporting rural areas and I wish them all the best.
While I’m not convinced that it’s the best way to spend £500k of public money, something does have to be done about supporting rural areas and I wish them all the best.
I know nothing about the area, but having seen local communities rescue pubs for the community down here, I had similar misgivings. Partly as it seemed quite pricey - must be a very profitable business at that valuation?
Yes, spotted that yesterday hopefully it works out. I’ve still never made it when I’ve been up that way.
While I’m not convinced that it’s the best way to spend £500k of public money, something does have to be done about supporting rural areas and I wish them all the best.
its a lot of money for a community of 110 people for sure but the pub is pretty central important to the community
I must confess I idly wondered about buying it myself - then I got real 🙂
A slight tangent, but you were in a dream of mine earlier this week TJ. My wife and I were out on a bike ride and you were going the other way on a tandem. You kindly stopped to let us have a shot of it to help us decide whether to buy one. Thanks for your help 👍🏼
500k? So that's 1 million £ valuation.
Why is the state contributing to something that's so busy and profitable it's worth a million? Surely a loan would be a doddle?
I've been there two or three times and I never got the feeling it was struggling.
What am I missing?
Having said all that if it was genuinely struggling, I'm glad it's been saved.
the pubs worth £425 000 ( thats the sale price) and from what Scotroutes says there is still the "goodwill" to be agreed
I think ( but not sure) it made good money over the summer but struggled in winter
I agree tho it all sounds a bit odd - my guess is that this is the only way to stop it being turned into holiday flats or something - but I agree why could a commercial loan not be made
Great ape - you want a shot on it? Its just hanging on the wall being sad ATM
Ate great smoked salmon there and drank good beer but doubt whether it's worth a bar.
Owner seems a polarising figure - coin flip to get a beautiful dining experience or Basil Fawlty on a bad day:
I know some people from Knoydart. The former owner is hated by the locals pretty much universally. Apparently he would close the pub over winter but when his mates came over from Belgium he'd ask local musicians to come in and play for peanuts and make it look like the pub was lively and open all the while.
It really sapped the life out of the whole community and created a lot of resentment and division.
He’s hated by the locals pretty much universally. Apparently he would close the pub over winter but when his mates came over from Belgium he’d ask local musicians to come in and play for peanuts and make it look like the pub was lively and open all the while.
Yup, I've heard the locals basically refuse to go in there and set up some kind of informal private club as an alternative.
Unpopular or not he seems to have wrangled half a mill out of the state.
He struck me as a bit of a Canute, once he'd got your money he was as sour as.
Unpopular or not he seems to have wrangled half a mill out of the state.
No he has not. he will get a market price for the place. the half millon goes to the community
Great ape – you want a shot on it? Its just hanging on the wall being sad ATM
Thanks but we’re ok - in real life we’ve had a go on a few, and invariably not done much better than Howard and Marina in LOTSW.
I was there in July, I go most years for a gold group that finishes there. The kids are 18 so we get parental permission to buy them a celebratory drink. I think JP was Dutch and all the locals had huge tabs when he took over,he ruffled feathers by wondering when they would be settled. The community that have just bought the pub built their shed right outside his pub,and they would tell you not to drink in the pub so no wonder he focussed on tourists. He looked after us well every time we were in and I remember it being a cold shithole with terrible beer and no food a couple of owners ago. He could have a torn puss on occasion in all fairness, but see EVERY publican in Scotland. No danger will it be selling local real ale or producing food of the same standard next year. ( He is an ex chef of some standing.)
Oh and the pish about using local businesses etc in the foundations begging letter,all his stuff was so local the tax man is after him. Obviously the locals hatred of him didn't extend to taking his cash.
No he has not. he will get a market price for the place. the half millon goes to the community
Ok, so the pub is being bought for the £250k which the locals raised and the £500k is being used to refurb the pub or similar?
Is there a reference to that somewhere?
425000 for the pub buildinbgs. plus ( according to Scotroutes) goodwill I guess they will also need a floating fund
community have raised 250 000
Ta for that Scotroutes - I wisnae calling you out - just I had no knowledge of the "goodwill" apart from what you said
Pretty standard business deal really. Goodwill and inventory by negotiation.
Of course, there's nothing to prevent someone else coming in with a better bid, though they'd have to factor in the current situation with the locals.
I think JP was Dutch and all the locals had huge tabs when he took over
Wrong nationality, and the correct one already mentioned in the thread - but I'm sure you really know what you're talking about and all the locals are wrong. 🧐
Also pretty sure he was never a chef - https://uk.linkedin.com/in/jean-pierre-robinet-52038518
I didn't think you could sell the adherent goodwill of a pub separate from the purchase price of the bricks and mortar. i.e. it has to be bought with the building and stamp/lbtt had to be paid on it. Specific case (so I thought, but seemingly wrong) for pubs because the goodwill is generated by the physical space. Personal goodwill leaves with the outgoing landlord and is effectively worthless. Maybe it is marketed like this so that, if failing to find a buyer of it as a pub, it could have been sold as a domestic property too at a lesser price.
Hope it works for them. Pubs run by committee of invested locals have not got the best rep for doing well.
but I’m sure you really know what you’re talking about and all the locals are wrong. 🧐
My apologies grum,I commented on my experience of being there multiple times over 3 different owners and 5 times in the last 4 years, including twice this Summer. That is obviously different to your reading of the relationship between the locals and the owner in your recent experiences of Knoydart.
Oh; and I always assumed he was Dutch as he was described as a Dutch prick by a local in the drinking shed the first year that was opened. I would love to see the folk who run the cafe take it on,their food was really good, which they will need to keep up to keep attracting the boats.
My apologies grum,I commented on my experience of being there multiple times over 3 different owners and 5 times in the last 4 years, including twice this Summer. That is obviously different to your reading of the relationship between the locals and the owner in your recent experiences of Knoydart.
Oh; and I always assumed he was Dutch as he was described as a Dutch prick by a local in the drinking shed the first year that was opened. I would love to see the folk who run the cafe take it on,their food was really good, which they will need to keep up to keep attracting the boats.
Thanks for the only recent first hand account in the thread, Duckman.
Not going to get into a who knows best comp duckman but I have a pretty good mate who lives there and I know a few other locals too. I think you get a different perspective as a visitor.
Didn't say I was the only recent visitor out of breath so no need for thanks.
Fair enough grum.
Can you ride there?
Can you ride there?
Do you mean ride to get there? I think it would involve an awful lot of carrying. There is a decent mostly rideable track from Barrisdale Bay to Inverie. Probs more fun to hike and go over the munros there though.
I had asked that in June, the consensus was not really.
The kids are 18 so we get parental permission to buy them a celebratory drink.
Why would you need parental permission to buy a drink for another adult?
Ignore the usual daftness in the grauniad talking about scotland ” 18 mile walk over mountains and bogs” – its actually a good path the whole way
Last time I walked in there was a pretty boggy section near alongside upper loch Hourn. OK if you have decent walking boots and it's dry weather.
I think the community running the inn could go either way:
a) small group of locals with a passion for great food and drink take on the running and the rest of the members of the community take a hands-off approach and let them get on with doing their job well. Financial side is looked after by someone with a good business head who won't tolerate locals running up tabs.
b) management by committee with no very clear vision and all decisions bogged down with lack of anyone able to get anything done. No investment in keeping the place well looked after. Locals taking the piss with unpaid tabs and finances descending into a shambles. Any attempt to raise standards of food/drink seen as being an attempt to be "exclusive" and detrimental to the community use of it as a locals' pub.
Let's hope it's option a.
Thanks for the only recent first hand account in the thread, Duckman.
+1
I had asked that in June, the consensus was not really.
I love the qualification there.
Straight yes: ok then
Straight no: won't bother trying
Not really: hmmmm.....
Can you walk anywhere for 18 miles in the highlands in Scotland and not encounter hills and bogs?
While I’m not convinced that it’s the best way to spend £500k of public money, something does have to be done about supporting rural areas and I wish them all the best.
Yes it raised my eyebrows too but I suppose the options are:
1. Nobody buys it. The pub shuts. Its goes into decay a bit and gets sold at a reduced rate and the community have a harder job to get it to be sustainable.
2. Somebody buys it, wants to run it as a viable pub/business and succeeds. This would in many ways be the win-win for everyone; but eventually they may want to retire/sell themselves.
3. Somebody buys it, wants to run it as a viable pub/business and screws up - go to option 1. I think this is such a hard place to make a year round living, and few people will be close enough to the reality of this it will be the most likely outcome. Unfortunately I suspect there's enough "London money" around just now that this could be a real risk. Perhaps even a series of such romantic idealists.
4. Someone buys it, with the intent to operate as a summer only venue and run on much the same basis as the current owner. It will be viable as a business but of zero real benefit to the local community. That's exactly the "absentee landlord" type situation the land fund was created for so seems reasonable for them to step in?
5. Nobody buys it as a pub. Someone buys it to convert to a holiday home. They probably have a planning battle - but eventually, if its been shut for a good few years would likely win). This is a very real prospect, if not now then at any point when a new owner changes their plan.
As far as I know the grants are a "gift" to the community - i.e. if that becomes a very profitable venture there's no need to repay any of it? That doesn't seem a particularly sustainable way to run the fund - but there are many less worthy ways that governments will waste millions so I'm not going to get upset about it!
I'd really like to hear from someone in the know if it's a viable business or not. I've been there three times (always in spring) and it was heaving twice and empty the other time (but that was during the day and I'd only gone in for a shower).
I never got the impression it was anything other than thriving, but the frequent changes of hands perhaps indicate otherwise.
Of course, I've never seen it in winter.
Another thought, it's one thing to run a pub in the ownership of (say) a married couple as manager and chef and no significant staff costs for those two roles. Quite another for "the community" to employ a manger and chef and still expect to break even.
I'm confident it will survive long term because there's clearly demand for a pub there, but it will be interesting to see how community ownership works out in this case.
there are many less worthy ways that governments will waste millions
This grant is only 1% of the commitment made to Cairngorm Mountain.
OOB - the grants from the land fund to put ownership of various things all seem to have worked out well so far as far as I am aware
the fund that these monies come from have some pretty tight rules about viability and so on before they grant the money so I assume due diligence has been done.
I am sure due diligence has been done, I'm still interested in the detail.
I'm still a bit confused. If the pub is viable why is state money required? If the pub isn't viable why is it so pricey?
Certainly have no problem with state cash going to a cause like this, just surprised it's needed.
Personally I think joint ownership of a pub is likely to be a disaster *but* they should certainly be given the chance and if all else fails they can just let it out and effectively outsource everything so it can't really go far wrong medium term.
ONly musings - I have no real knowledge
If the pub isn’t viable why is it so pricey?
because thats it value to incomers as a holiday home?
Is a commercial mortgage / loan available to a "community buyout? Can a commercial loan also cover things like "goodwill?"
Pubs are weird businesses, not sure why. I live in a huge housing estate area with crap facilities. It's fairly well off area but the only entertainment options are two pubs. One is a naff flat-roofed chain place with two meals for a tenner kids eat free type stuff, and the other was a country pub next to the church years ago, but when we came it was rubbish with bad food, then it closed. They are now building even more houses so it's surrounded by lower middle class people with nowhere to walk to for a nice pint or a meal out. And yet they are still struggling to get anyone to run it, it's one of those £1 lease jobs.
because thats it value to incomers as a holiday home?
Nope.
Is a commercial mortgage / loan available to a “community buyout? Can a commercial loan also cover things like “goodwill?”
You tell me, if it isn't, it would answer my question.
Pubs are weird businesses, not sure why. I live in a huge housing estate area with crap facilities. It’s fairly well off area but the only entertainment options are two pubs. One is a naff flat-roofed chain place with two meals for a tenner kids eat free type stuff, and the other was a country pub next to the church years ago, but when we came it was rubbish with bad food, then it closed. They are now building even more houses so it’s surrounded by lower middle class people with nowhere to walk to for a nice pint or a meal out. And yet they are still struggling to get anyone to run it, it’s one of those £1 lease jobs.
True, but this is a unique pub and has never struggled to find landlords before, and in this case there's a minimum £425k valuation which isn't saying to me nobody's interested, quite the opposite.
We'll find out in time, I guess.
And yet they are still struggling to get anyone to run it, it’s one of those £1 lease jobs.
sounds like its a tied house ie the licensee has to buy all stock at an inflated price from one supplier - who remains the owner of the building. Its a recipe for going bust in a short time.
The kids are 18 so we get parental permission to buy them a celebratory drink.
Because technically the trip is run from the school and even though they have left the award is linked to the school. You know how it all works.
footflaps,again; I didn't say I was the only one who had visited this Summer, so no thanks necessary.
I'd have thought with no road access if you took away the pub and replaced it with a holiday let you'd be seeing the tourism disappear and before long the village resembling a great many tiny communities on the west coast.
A bunch of empty derelict building and because of the location maybe an MBA bothy. Whether the locals like it or not they surely benefit from the draw of having something to bring people in so it's worth the moola