Going to kick off in Memphis tonight.

Hope not. No one wins then.

Caher
Full Member
Hope not. No one wins then.

Yeah, I agree. Shop owners already boarding up premises but hopefully calm prevails.

I've watched them. Not out of morbid curiosity, but to get an idea of what's going on in America. I work with Americans who are your typical white republican "if you comply then you're safe" bootlickers, and I imagine I'll hear words to that effect the next time I go back.

It's truly, heartbreakingly bad. And yet there's a cop in one of the news studios saying he thinks the issue is the sergeant not taking charge and allowing the officers to act as they please, and that's everything wrong with America's police crystallised down into one person. Personally I'd prefer a police force where where we didn't have to rely on instruction from a higher rank to keep murderous acts in check.

No sign of anything going off in Memphis or elsewhere - yet.
Let's hope that's how it stays.

One thing that struck me from the bodycam footage was the conversation between the officers after the beating. As if they were justified in their actions explaining what had happened from a their extremely biased false account of events. I couldn't work out if that is how they actually saw the events unfold, or if that conversation was for the benefit of the camera in the hope it would sway any future reviewer of the footage. Kind of an extension of the US police shouting "stop resisting" to a victim they are beating.

Makes you wonder who the 'Gang of thugs'really are'.That is truly sickening and heartbreaking that by what looks and sounds like a very frightened man knows what is about too happen,I for one do not hope it stays quiet in Memphis.
Disturbing.

I for one do not hope it stays quiet in Memphis.

Is that bad phrasing or are you saying you hope it kicks off? Why? While I'd say there is 'justification' then who's that going to serve in the end - more victims injured or worse, in an armed society. Damage to property and premises. There's other ways to condemn these actions without resorting to the same level as the scum that did this.

Who of course they know who they are, have been arrested and will face the consequences (I hope)

While I'm always keen to (snowflake) that the actions of an individual or individuals don't define the actions of a community, ethnicity, religion, etc...... that cuts both ways so I'm surprised / not surprised that this was the action of five black officers. I'm interested by the commentary that if the victim had been white this wouldn't have happened. If that's true america's even more messed up than I thought.

I’ve not watched the vids but the first thing Mrs FD said was it will be interesting to see if it does kick off as the officers were black as well.

That poses more questions in itself about the state of America

I think it poses questions about the institutional culture of US law enforcement and how it is now part of the problem rather than being part of the solution.

They appear to be emboldened to act in any way they choose and innocent people are just steamrolled by the process and weight of the establishment.

It also shows that brutality and a gang mentality is embedded throughout the police, regardless of the “officers” race. Let’s be honest, we all assumed it was white cops beating a black man on first hearing, the language used during it reflects their power trip as well.

Exactly, these incidents are not the first time these officers have acted in such a way, this is the culture and they are experienced in the abuse of power so much that they did that without even thinking they could be caught or of course about the abuse they were inflicting.

The whole US justice system is corrupt, from civil forfeiture, through poor people being imprisoned because they couldn't pay local fines, to acts of violence like this. I don't think it is possible to design a system with so much contempt for humanity.

But is American society condoning the actions if they don’t go out and protest? Same with guns, it’s almost acceptable to do a mass shooting

its a sad world if their is no respect for fellow people unless it’s along the lines of racial discrimination, which at that point you have to wonder if race is the way of creating division on both sides, not bringing closer together

I watched probably hundreds of dash cam or body cam rcordings of police interaction in the USA.
They are mostly a circle jerk of raising the level of antagonism with every sentence
Plus alot of American police are retarded. Make up laws on the spot, lie blatently despite videos proving innocence. Pull their guns without any reason, shine a torch in your eyes, refuse to give their name when asked.

But the motorists dont help themselves.
Refuse to give name, answer any questions, get sarcastic straight away.

Concealed carry, plus the sheer amount of firearms clearly doesn't help, then add in the standard of driving or riding and all the 1st amendment ' I know more about law than you' yes, you might but they have a badge and a gun pointed at you so try being nice.

The "lack of" a racial aspect to this attack certainly changes the dynamics of any protests, and I'm not sure there will be violence this time as a result. As others have said, we all expected this to be white officers, which speaks to our own biases I guess. I wonder how common it is for black officers to abuse their power against white and black victims? Or how well known among the black community - not a subject that reaches us over here in reports.

The whole American system is so messed up, no idea how you fix it.

When the justice system as a whole targets the black community differently, then just because a black officer(s) is empowered to enforce that system, I don't think it eliminates the racial bias of the crime.

I think it poses questions about the institutional culture of US law enforcement and how it is now part of the problem rather than being part of the solution.

If you haven’t already checkout the recent “Fight the Power” hip hop documentary and the corresponding thread on here. It explains how the US police force was trained and authorised in lethal force and brutality in the 80’s and 90’s with every piece of ignorant information that could be thrown at them by a white racist leadership. Clearly it’s still taught and very much institutionalised.

I watched the video this morning and an absolutely disgusted at the whole event. I hope the protests are long and successful yet not violent or destructive.

Unfortunately, racism is endemic in America and has experience a recent rise in the citing of the first amendment by another recent white racist intolerant leadership.

It's an utterly horrific crime. A couple of points:

1. Thanks to bodycam footage, the cops were quickly arrested and charged with murder. Without bodycams, they would have gotten off with saying that he attacked a police officer and tried to steal a gun.

2. The cops were all black, so it wasn't a case of racist white cops targeting a black man. It's a case of a broken system where it's not possible to do a decent job of policing. The "bad apples" analogies forget that the expression is, "one bad apple spoils the barrel." Nobody could do a decent job of being a cop in that system, anyone with any sense will quit so only the bad apples are left.

A couple of TV shows that aren't just the standard cop propaganda are We Own This City (dramatization of real events) and Southland, which is the nearest thing I've seen to a modern remake of Hill Street Blues. Problem is that even cops who try to be decent are in a system that rewards the opposite.

I do think race plays a part though. Black men in America know, from previous media reports and through their own experience, that they are at risk during and after arrest and are therefore more likely to resist and/or run. That immediately raises the level of antagonism, the red mist descends and we see what the result can be. And then the whole circle starts again.

Having seen more than one such video, I'm also questioning whether the police involved are hyped up on drugs of some sort.

I do think race plays a part though.

Yes, the point is that the racism is embedded in the system, it's not just a case of a few racist cops.

I’m also questioning whether the police involved are hyped up on drugs of some sort.

You really should watch We Own This City, or at least read about the real-life events that it's based on.

http://data.baltimoresun.com/news/gun-trace-overview/

I used to listen to a podcast by 2 very rude black American ladies.
One of them had just been diagnosed with ptsd.
She had flown to England and met up with some friends of friends (also black). They were driving around when the cops pulled them over.
The driver got out of the car and started arguing with the cops. The girl is pleading with the man to stop and comply. The driver then runs off.
She said on the podcast that this behaviour in the America would have got you shot and she feared for her life.
Sounds a bit “grow a pair” but she obviously sees a cop and sees a killer.

but she obviously sees a cop and sees a killer.

Not an unwise position to take in London after the recent cases and more to come I wouldn't be surprised.

To me is goes hand in hand with the US attitude to guns - putting aggression first.
For all their possible faults, the UK police are primarily taught to first calm and descalate a situation, the US police are seemingly taught to show their aggression and power first.
They're screwed.

They are mostly a circle jerk of raising the level of antagonism with every sentence
Plus alot of American police are retarded. Make up laws on the spot, lie blatently despite videos proving innocence. Pull their guns without any reason, shine a torch in your eyes, refuse to give their name when asked.

But the motorists dont help themselves.
Refuse to give name, answer any questions, get sarcastic straight away.

None of that is specific to the US. It sounds like policing in the UK too (apart from the guns, for the most part). And if they can't deal with sarcasm, they shouldn't join the police. If bus drivers or nurses shot everyone that was sarcastic or rude to them, the population of the UK would be about 6,000.

If bus drivers or nurses shot everyone that was sarcastic or rude to them, the population of the UK would be about 6,000.

It's a bit of a small population, but I'd like to live in a society where no-one is rude to nurses or bus drivers.

But why should these people (oover here) have to put up with sarcasm?(if thats your form of response to someone trying to help society then you don't deserve any respect) Anything other than perfect politeness puts you in the wrong and then things go wrong if you push. If plod says "stop" you do it, instantly.
Over there they have an excellent opportunity for the police to do things properly. If , big if, protestors as peaceful, do no damage and cause no hassle to anyone then there will be no excuse for any officer to get aggressive. Jobs good for all. If some nasty sod breaks a rule then the law has to respod and the other thugs will join in and we have a riot.
Both groups have the perfect opportunity to show themselves at their best.

None of that is specific to the US. It sounds like policing in the UK too

I’ve worked alongside frontline UK police officers for over twenty years. Whilst the UK police undoubtedly has its issues (especially in the MET which seems to have significantly lower recruitment standards than the rest of the uk) they are still completely different in their approach to US police. Policing by consent of the population is actually a thing in the UK. De-escalation techniques are actively practiced. Ive been present when force has been used to subdue and control individuals on many occasions, and I’ve never seen unjustified force used, ever. I appreciate that anecdotes are not evidence and that I haven’t got a similar level of experience with US police, but there is very obviously a very different style of policing involved.

For what it’s worth, I’ve been pulled over by a state trooper for speeding in Florida, and whilst it went fine, it wears a much more aggressive and unpleasant experience than it would have been in the UK. UK police rarely INITIATE an interaction by shouting at the member of public. Bizarre that that is seen as acceptable in the US.

This latest Memphis tragedy will hopefully go some way to moving the debate from simply one of individual racist officers to one of racist institutions and systematic ábside of power by the many ‘badged’ organisations with power to arrest and use lethal force in the US. The US public, who fund these organisations after all, should not put up with being treated like shit by them.

This reminds me of an article I saw a few years ago by an ex-military guy who got a job as a cop. His point was that the police have a military culture that is not appropriate to their job, and also that soldiers are much more constrained in how they are allowed to treat civilians than police. The problem with American cops is that they see themselves as constantly under threat and behave as an occupying force in hostile territory. That becomes a self-fulling prophesy so police overreactions lead to hostility from the citizenry, which makes the police distrust everyone leading to more overreactions, and so on.
https://twitter.com/SteveSchmidtSES/status/1619320654507163649

Brian Klaas has written about the kind of people US police forces actively recruit being a big part of the problem

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2021/11/how-new-zealand-used-humor-reform-police/620598/

I don't think it's just people of colour who get the raw end of American law enforcement, If you're white and poor (the USA has lots of people in this demographic) you are still at risk of a good beating or worse, just a lot less likely to make the international press.

It's difficult, some parts of society are aggressive first and foremost with anyone, not just law enforcement. They are more likely to interact with police. Is the police response a reaction to the behaviour ofvghese people or does police response create the issues. In the UK I think it's more weighted towards public attitude causing the issues although the police as a whole are clearly not without blame. In the states it's become a war with both sides equally culpable and dehumanizing the other to justify behaviour.

IIRC american cops are organised very differently with different roles Ie State troopers, sheriffs and deputies etc, city police and in many of those roles training is very minimal whereas most European cops have much greater training.

I still find this weird tho with it being black cops.  I really wasn't expecting that.

UK police rarely INITIATE an interaction by shouting at the member of public. Bizarre that that is seen as acceptable in the US.

As I understand it, many U.S. police jurisdictions train their cops to dominate the situation. They shout orders and react aggressively to any disobedience because they are trained to see consider any challenge as a potential threat.
I haven't seen the latest video, not planning on watching it, but I read a summary of it. There were multiple cops shouting contradictory orders. I suspect this is often done to disorient and intimidate people, or maybe just for amusement. Shouting isn't just seen as acceptable, it's a fundamental part of many cops' training.

To be fair, different states and cities in the U.S. will have different policies and training. Maybe some of them aren't so abusive but it's clear that many of them are horrendous.

I still find this weird tho with it being black cops. I really wasn’t expecting that.

This is not actually new. I saw some research years ago that found that black cops were just as racist as white cops. It's the system, not the individuals that is the primary cause of this.

I don’t think it’s just people of colour who get the raw end of American law enforcement, If you’re white and poor (the USA has lots of people in this demographic) you are still at risk of a good beating or worse, just a lot less likely to make the international press.

I suspect there is some truth to this, but I think cops will automatically treat black people as more threatening. Educated people know how to talk to cops and cops know better than to mistreat them. Poor white people who get aggressive in their behaviour will probably get a beating too but cops will approach black people with an assumption that they are offending whereas they are much less likely to do that with white people.

It's been a thing in various hip hop song lyrics over the years right back to the 80s with black officers being worse in some cases than their white colleagues when it comes to assuming a black person is up to no good and therefore being much more aggressive to the people they have stopped.

I still find this weird tho with it being black cops. I really wasn’t expecting that.

It's the colour of the person on the floor that really matters.

Cops is cops no matter what else. The George Floyd incident had Asian and Latino cops present. Didn't much affect the outcome

I still find this weird tho with it being black cops. I really wasn’t expecting that.

or maybe that explains why the force hasn't closed ranks, obstructed the investigation, lost the bodycam footage and tried to protect it's own for a change.

or maybe that explains why the force hasn’t closed ranks, obstructed the investigation, lost the bodycam footage and tried to protect it’s own for a change.

The arrested officers were part of an "elite" unit. It's just as likely that the regular officers knew these guys were a problem and were happy to throw them under the bus, regardless of race. We'll learn more once their trial starts, a lot of the details will be held back until then.

I watched it last night and what struck me (apart from the lynching by the police officers, that's merely bred into them through insufficiant training and piss poor management) was the fact that the ambulance/paramedics and the fire service stood around and did not offer help to the victim for 30 mins, I hope they are prosecuted and kicked out as well.

I hope this group get 20 years apiece, they really deserve it.

Utterly horrific.

I could not bring myself to watch, but I watched the interview with his mother which was heartbreaking.

I'm no expert on US policing but it seems like something is very wrong when this kind of thing is not even that uncommon.

I ended up watching the footage on the news yesterday, I am often thick skinned when it comes to most things as I know humanity can be very low and very cruel, but watching that really got to me, absolutely chuffin horrible!

@somafunk Medics and other official by-standers are on the docket too. Maybe justice will be done though I was watching part 2 of the Hip-Hop documentary last night and Rodney King was on so I won't hold my breath.

I have personal experience of American cops and it was mildly terrifying. I was staying in a hostel/hotel a few years ago and was woken up at 3am by incredibly aggressive hammering on the door. I of course ignored it because who opens the door to that. Somewhat belatedly they announced they were police, we opened the door to an immediate onslaught of shouted questioning asking whether there was a girl in our room - we mentioned our friend a few doors down and they go charging of to give the same treatment to her before finally screaming comes from the floor below and they realise they got the wrong room number for the report of a drug OD. The aggression they showed was insane, and knowing they carried guns was genuinely scary with someone acting that way, and all this was on a call that should have been to help someone. We were clearly confused foreign tourists and that did nothing to change their attitude; it really doesn't take much imagination to understand how much worse it must be for the groups of society against which they have pre-existing prejudice, even without seeing the videos to prove it

The level of inequality in a society corresponds directly to the level of repression required to maintain it.

I don't think policing in the UK is the same as in the US (and I've lived in both). I think there is always a level of smugness among UK posters after each new cop murder in the US, but there is plenty to be ashamed of in the UK.

Case in point: Scottish cops asphyxiated a black man in 2015, and the public inquiry still isn't close to concluding. "When Mr Bayoh was arrested by officers at Hayfield road in Kirkcaldy on May 3 2015, he was handcuffed, put in leg and ankle restraints, battoned to the head at least twice, and sprayed with CS gas and PAVA spray."

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/edinburgh-police-scotland-kirkcaldy-b1041837.html

Anything other than perfect politeness puts you in the wrong and then things go wrong if you push. If plod says “stop” you do it, instantly.

This would be a really great idea if all police officers were fair, honest and calm individuals. But they're not. The idea that citizens should so exactly what cops tell them to just because or expect a beating is a recipe for a police state.

And if your feelings are so delicate that your response to sarcasm is an instinct to violence - don't join the police.

was the fact that the ambulance/paramedics and the fire service stood around and did not offer help to the victim for 30 mins

nothing different here. There was that guy with a council tax arrears the police decided to cripple as punishment and after deliberately smashing his leg in several places then using the broken leg and knee to torture him the ambulance refused to take him unless he gave his name

The level of inequality in a society corresponds directly to the level of repression required to maintain it.

Sounds a plausible proposition but then I think to the eastern block countries that had less apparent inequality - and yet required massive organs of state oppression to keep their populations in line.

Of course they had the obvious divides between non party members, party members and the ruling elites, but gave the impression of more equality than the west. Maybe that was just a superficial view and there was far more inequality than advertised. Or maybe that proposition is wrong.

The thing that hit me with this incident is that it seemed normalised. Like, playing devil's advocate for a second I can understand how someone might get carried away in the heat of the moment and regret it afterwards. But at no point did anyone in that group go "woah, wait, hang on a minute lads..." That wasn't a one-off incident / accident, it was their standard operating procedure.

nothing different here. There was that guy with a council tax arrears the police decided to cripple as punishment and after deliberately smashing his leg in several places then using the broken leg and knee to torture him the ambulance refused to take him unless he gave his name

Got a link for that story, please?

Got a link for that story, please?

I posted a link ages ago... I'll see if I can find it again.

The thing that hit me with this incident is that it seemed normalised. Like, playing devil’s advocate for a second I can understand how someone might get carried away in the heat of the moment and regret it afterwards. But at no point did anyone in that group go “woah, wait, hang on a minute lads…” That wasn’t a one-off incident / accident, it was their standard operating procedure.

Because
a) They didn't expect him to actually die
b) there were non police controlled cameras

Surely you remember Peter Tomlinson and Jean Charles de Menezes only really exposed through phone footage and 3rd party CCTV the police couldn't delete before it went viral

Obviously a) doesn't apply to Jean Charles de Menezes as they discharged multiple rounds into his head at point blank range... but Tomlinson obviously was just meant to be roughed up for not showing deference. However strange how Canary Wharf cameras were accidentally turned off and it was only the banker who sent the phone footage to the papers got the murderer caught...

@Cougar

https://dwfgroup.com/en/news-and-insights/insights/2019/6/kenyon-v-the-chief-constable-of-hertfordshire

but Tomlinson obviously was just meant to be roughed up for not showing deference.

I thought Ian Tomlinson's death was caused by a rogue thug copper?

And on the other hand Jean Charles de Menezes's death was the result of an officially sanctioned operation?

stevextc
Free Member

@Cougar

https://dwfgroup.com/en/news-and-insights/insights/2019/6/kenyon-v-the-chief-constable-of-hertfordshire
/blockquote>

I see they broke his leg, where's the bit about them using that injury to torture him?

Found a few articles about the incident but couldnt see that referenced

note: not saying what happened to him was okay

 

ernielynch

I thought Ian Tomlinson’s death was caused by a rogue thug copper?

Same as the stuff in the thread about the sergeant/other officers in the Memphis case...

No other officer saw anything.... until the phone footage was released - no-one told the "thug" to stop etc.
When you watch the video there are tens of officers see it... yet noone saw anything until the phone footage was released.

So not the same as the Jean Charles de Menezes incident then?

In that incident the other coppers weren't simply uninvolved bystanders, they were active participants in the killing of Jean Charles de Menezes.

multi21

I see they broke his leg, where’s the bit about them using that injury to torture him?

Found a few articles about the incident but couldnt see that referenced

note: not saying what happened to him was okay

Somewhere the actual CCTV footage keeps getting onto YT and then the police have it taken down and it gets put up again - it's not as bad as Memphis as at least you know in advance the guy doesn't die...

What's documented is one of the officers was unconnected to this convicted of rape of a vulnerable person https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-beds-bucks-herts-54237900

The case the driver had a weapon and was threatening was throw out of crown court
The IPCC watching the video had no grounds for ANY wrong doing.

This seems to be up again for now (ignore the sarcastic comments compare to the solicitors account)

The level of inequality in a society corresponds directly to the level of repression required to maintain it.

This.

Having just watched the footage I’m amazed any black person stops for the cops at any time.

ernielynch

So not the same as the Jean Charles de Menezes incident then?

In that incident the other coppers weren’t simply uninvolved bystanders, they were active participants in the killing of Jean Charles de Menezes.

Obviously every "incident" is different... let's not forget there are thousands of interactions between the police and public every day in which they are nothing but helpful....

My original point was when something un-towards DOES go on that it's largely the same.
Cressida Dick has issued a kill order already... but noone on the ground questioned it (or if they did its not recorded)

Non of the officers take any steps to stop Tomlinson being assaulted (even though they don't know he's going to die) and non of them reported seeing anything...

It doesn't seem every officer actively participated in the murder of Tyre Nichols but non of them intervened

It's this that makes it something MORE worrying... the ability of one bad officer to not only drag others in but to expect a twisted backup of what happened from their fellow officers and the entire system.

Having just watched the footage I’m amazed any black person stops for the cops at any time.

What happens if you don't stop?

However strange how Canary Wharf cameras were accidentally turned off and it was only the banker who sent the phone footage to the papers got the murderer caught…

Tomlinson was killed at Cornhill, which is some distance from Canary Wharf.

The Ian Tomlinson case is also a big stain on Keir Starmer's CPS career, with the inevitable appearance of covering up

The thing that hit me with this incident is that it seemed normalised. Like, playing devil’s advocate for a second I can understand how someone might get carried away in the heat of the moment and regret it afterwards. But at no point did anyone in that group go “woah, wait, hang on a minute lads…” That wasn’t a one-off incident / accident, it was their standard operating procedure.

I suspect burnout is part of the issue. People often misunderstand burnout - it's not that people are just callous, it's that well-meaning people get emotionally overwhelmed with situations they can't deal with and the only way to deal with it is to ignore suffering. Teachers, nurses, doctors, etc. often suffer from burnout because they care too much, but are faced with situations that they just can't manage emotionally. The paramedics who ignored the victim were probably suffering from burnout.

The thing for police is that they are often dealing with people who get a kick out of disrespecting police. Facing constant abuse from people will burn out even the best intentioned cops, so they just learn to ignore suffering. Members of the public respond to this by loathing cops and heap abuse on them at any opportunity, so you have a cycle of contempt and abuse. To break that cycle, you need to completely change the culture of policing, but it will take 10 or 20 years to see results. Voters don't respond well to promises of change in 20 years, they want change right now, but that's not realistic.

Non of the officers take any steps to stop Tomlinson being assaulted

What possible steps could they have taken to stop Tomlinson being assaulted?

The whole assault took less than 2 seconds. Tomlinson was struck at the back of the legs with a baton and pushed so that he instantly fell. The assault stopped at that point.

The killing of Ian Tomlinson was an appalling incident carried out by a thug wearing a police uniform, there is no doubt about that.

But it is hardly a very good example of police officers not intervening in an assault. I'm not even sure how many actually saw what happened.

Ernielynch

What possible steps could they have taken to stop Tomlinson being assaulted?

The whole assault took less than 2 seconds. Tomlinson was struck at the back of the legs with a baton and pushed so that he instantly fell. The assault stopped at that point.

The killing of Ian Tomlinson was an appalling incident carried out by a thug wearing a police uniform, there is no doubt about that.

But it is hardly a very good example of police officers not intervening in an assault. I’m not even sure how many actually saw what happened.

I haven't watched it since shortly after it happened but my recollection is Tomlinson was already being pushed about.

Rewatching it looks like he is punched by another officer just before the fatal assault but there isn't a lot of scope for intervention

However what is really more telling is non of them try and help him.... no-one takes the thugs badge number .. no one tells him "that was out of order I'm reporting/arresting you"
Indeed having looked again there is a lot of footage came to light (magically appeared) of the same officer assaulting multiple people (including press) the same day yet he isn't reported/arrested

As was already said for the Memphis incident...

But at no point did anyone in that group go “woah, wait, hang on a minute lads…” That wasn’t a one-off incident / accident, it was their standard operating procedure.

The Ian Tomlinson case is also a big stain on Keir Starmer’s CPS career, with the inevitable appearance of covering up

I think what I'm trying to say is there is an expectation of covering up... that police saying "CCTV was not working" or accidentally deleted is accepted (until someone has other footage). Weren't the tube cameras accidentally not working or accidentally deleted for de Menezes ???

Tomlinson was killed at Cornhill, which is some distance from Canary Wharf.

It's been a while ... I think the point is he was in an area with LOTS of CCTV that was conveniently "switched off".
No one saying “woah, wait, hang on a minute lads…”

Many years ago I was at a 999 Disco with a mate (police officer now retired) and a van of TSG pulled up and had everyone against the wall and jabbing at people with truncheons etc essentially trying to provoke a response.
Before they got to us they pulled a wallet out of someone's back pocket who turned out to be a fairly senior officer.
(It's decades ago so can't remember what rank) except nothing happened other than apologising to the senior officer being the butt of jokes "It's a 999 Disco who did you think would be queuing outside" and them pissing off.

I did ask my mate a bit later thinking they must have had a proper dress down but he said "nothing will happen it's just not done" (or words to that effect) on a different occasion he's said that sort of grassing is beaten out of you in Hendon.

However what is really more telling is non of them try and help him…. no-one takes the thugs badge number .. no one tells him “that was out of order I’m reporting/arresting you”

After being knocked down Ian Tomlinson sat up, stood up, and walked away. But you think the other coppers should have arrested the copper who struck him?

Have you ever been on a demo with lines of riot police?

Btw how do you know that no copper said "that's out of order mate"? What are you basing that claim on?

What happened to Ian Tomlinson, a completely innocent man walking away with his hands in his pockets, was absolutely tragic and appalling, but I am struggling to see the similarities with Tyre Nichols's death in Memphis.

After being knocked down Ian Tomlinson sat up, stood up, and walked away. But you think the other coppers should have arrested the copper who struck him?

They witnessed an assault... no way on earth was that not an assault

Btw how do you know that no copper said “that’s out of order mate”? What are you basing that claim on?

He wasn't arrested and allowed to leave the scene despite plainly committing an assault on an innocent man.
It wasn't the first either ... and on no occasion that day was he arrested despite committing multiple assaults in front of other officers.

Have you ever been on a demo with lines of riot police?

I'm not seeing a riot here, I'm seeing them strolling... my mate was in a van in the poll tax riots with people trying to get the fuel cap off to set it alight. I can totally understand a panic under that sort of situation... walking behind an old bloke with his hands in his pockets who doesn't get out of the way fast enough and show proper deference is completely different. He should have been arrested on the spot ..

what do you think would have happened if the situation was reversed and Tomlinson had attacked one of the officers with a weapon from behind? Do you think the others would have been too distracted to do anything?

What happened to Ian Tomlinson, a completely innocent man walking away with his hands in his pockets, was absolutely tragic and appalling, but I am struggling to see the similarities with Tyre Nichols’s death in Memphis.

The thug clearly expected to just assault innocent people with no consequences and more thugs were out the next day assaulting the public

https://www.theguardian.com/global/2009/apr/14/g20-police-assault-ian-tomlinson-police

The new claims of brutality came as the chair of the IPCC faced renewed criticism after he wrongly claimed there was "no CCTV footage" in the area where police allegedly assaulted the newspaper vendor before he died.

Anna Branthwaite, 36, freelance photog­rapher from south London, told the IPCC she saw an officer push Tomlinson to the ground at a different location on Royal Exchange Passage, moments before the assault captured in the footage.

"It was a very forceful knocking-down from behind," she said. "The officer hit him twice with a baton when he was lying on the floor."

Again all of that in full view of other officers... statements from the IPCC chair claiming no cameras (about as believable as driving to Barnard Castle)

Do you really think if Tyre Nichols or Ian Tomlinson hadn't died there would have been ANY investigation?
It's tragic they died but if they hadn't and they weren't captured on camera they'd both just be "a n other" innocent member of the public assaulted by the police that day.

The Tomlinson killing wasn't a spontaneous event that the police system couldn't have prevented of you look at it in the context of the responsible officer's career. Had his previous misconduct been addressed by the relevant forces or his fellow officers, he wouldn't have been wandering around central London battering people in uniform that day.

he wouldn’t have been wandering around central London battering people in uniform that day.

He wasn't supposed to be, he was a driver, he was supposed to be sitting in his parked vehicle. He was a thug who wanted a bit of action.

He wasn’t arrested and allowed to leave the scene despite plainly committing an assault on an innocent man.

Of course he wasn't arrested. You live in a fantasy world if you think coppers are instantly arrested for striking someone on the back of the legs with a truncheon and pushing them.

This is what happens when police in full riot gear are deployed. I have been in countless situations where police have used truncheons, they don't go around arresting each other. Not here or any other country on earth.

The problem for poor Ian Tomlinson was that he was totally innocent, in every way possible, he didn't even have anything to do with the demo. If he had he might have not been so casual and would not have walked with his back to a line of police in riot gear.

If you expect the police to arrest each other as well as demonstrators at demos dream on.

I still see very little comparison with police brutality in the United States. And imo it is frankly disingenuous to suggest that there is one.

Of course he wasn’t arrested. You live in a fantasy world if you think coppers are instantly arrested for striking someone on the back of the legs with a truncheon and pushing them.

Seems to sum up the entire problem. Impunity to unprovoked assaults on the public unless....

The problem for poor Ian Tomlinson was that he was totally innocent, in every way possible, he didn’t even have anything to do with the demo.

Nope the problem for the police is he died and there was footage leaked to the papers the police couldn't conveniently delete, the acceptance of officers making unprovoked attacks with weapons on innocent members of the public and the lies of the IPCC were exposed...

This is what happens when police in full riot gear are deployed.

So the brutal attack and torture of the guy with a council tax overpayment was what?
Are you maintaining the camera footage is fake or disputing the judge's dismissal in the Crown Court or condoning assault and torture by the police of someone failed to sort out an overpayment in council tax?

Are you maintaining the camera footage is fake or disputing the judge’s dismissal in the Crown Court or condoning assault and torture by the police of someone failed to sort out an overpayment in council tax?

Apologies but I don't know what you are talking about. I haven't made any comments regarding camera footage or what a judge said about council tax overpayment.

Perhaps you are confusing me with someone else.

Apologies but I don’t know what you are talking about. I haven’t made any comments regarding camera footage or what a judge said about council tax overpayment.

Perhaps you are confusing me with someone else.

No I'm assuming you seem to be excusing police violence against the innocent public and are trying to pretend that what they do day in and day out beating the shit out of people that offend them is all fine.

I haven’t made any comments regarding camera footage or what a judge said about council tax overpayment.

Of course you haven't because they aren't wearing riot gear as they brutally assault, cripple and torture a guy who's crime was a council tax overpayment (as the carer for his father) it goes against your narrative that

This is what happens when police in full riot gear are deployed.

No this is what happens when there is a culture of violence against the public for shits and giggles and a culture of covering it up and destroying evidence.

It's so normalised the officers watching don't even comment or arrest the officer doing it because that's what the police do when they think no-one is watching, it so normal to them they don't even pause. Ian Tomlinson died and there was video evidence sent to the press.. that's the only different thing here.

Of course he wasn’t arrested. You live in a fantasy world if you think coppers are instantly arrested for striking someone on the back of the legs with a truncheon and pushing them.

This isn't going to get easier for the police to keep hiding now most of the population has mobile phones ...
They can't just keep trying to suppress evidence and pretend this sort of thing is an isolated incident.

There is only one way I can see the police can regain ANY credibility...
Every officer who witnesses violent assaults against the public by a fellow officer without arresting the officer needs to be dismissed no questions.
Those covering up need to be given custodial sentences.

No I’m assuming you seem to be excusing police violence against the innocent public......

I didn't really bother reading beyond that idiotic comment.

I was challenging your daft claims concerning the tragic Ian Tomlinson incident. For example that other officers didn't attempt to stop the assault when the assault lasted less than 2 seconds. Also the ridiculous claim that they should have instantly arrested the officer, after Ian Tomlinson got up and walked away.

But probably the daftest suggestion of all is that the Ian Tomlinson incident suggests UK police are as brutal as the police in the United States and that it was somehow comparable to the killing of Tyre Nichols in Memphis.

Yet another thread gets dragged off topic.
Who's done it this time?
How predictable.

ErnieLynch

Also the ridiculous claim that they should have instantly arrested the officer, after Ian Tomlinson got up and walked away.

So you are excusing the assault and cover up.. simple as.
It's totally irrelevant he walked away ... he was assaulted, they saw it, they did nothing.
This isn't about the outcome, Ian Tomlinson was unlucky ..he could have had a bruised leg and the officer should have been arrested and sent to trail and given a custodial sentence.

As I've pointed out multiple times the only differences between this and thousands of illegal assaults by UK police every single day is he died and there was 3rd party camera footage they couldn't suppress.

Why did he do it? Because he knew non of the other officers would say or do anything and any camera footage would be destroyed/lost/wasn't working and the IPCC would lie to protect him.

Every officer witnessing unprovoked attacks on members of the public without making an arrest of the offending officer needs to be dismissed.
Any destroying evidence, lying and involved in cover ups need to have custodial sentences...

If you think that it's ridiculous not to expect police to do their actual job and protect the public when its one of their own doing the assault/theft/rape then its no wonder the public have little or no confidence in them.

Yet another thread gets dragged off topic.

Off topic is pretending this is some problem unique to Memphis/US ... anywhere but us.

The only time the police get held accountable is when someone dies and it can't be hidden AND the police can't delete the cameras. I'm sure Tyre Nicols wasn't the only innocent member of the public to be brutally assaulted in Memphis that day.. but he was the one died and the police couldn't suppress the cameras.

Somewhere in the UK at the same time some innocent member of the public was being assaulted by the police we just don't hear about it unless they die and there is independent footage they can't control/delete.

Watch the video above where 3 officers brutally assault and torture someone because they have received a council tax over payment. (Before the police get it taken down AGAIN)

They clearly expect (and correctly) they can get away with this just like the cops in Memphis.

The tragedy is had Tyre Nicols NOT died their helmet footage would have been deleted.. nothing ever happened... just like in the UK

the UK police...are still completely different in their approach to US police. Policing by consent of the population is actually a thing in the UK. De-escalation techniques are actively practiced. Ive been present when force has been used to subdue and control individuals on many occasions, and I’ve never seen unjustified force used, ever.

🤔

"Black people are seven times more likely to die than white people following restraint by police, new analysis of official data reveals...It is contained in a report released on Monday called I Can’t Breathe: Race, Death and British Policing. It alleges that the British system for investigating deaths after contact with the police fails black families and ignores racism as a potential factor."
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/feb/19/black-people-seven-times-more-likely-to-die-after-police-restraint-in-britain-figures-show