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I would read ‘spoon fed’ by tim Spector
Is that the one subtitled ‘Why almost everything you’ve ever been told about food was wrong and now buy my book’? 😉
Seriously though, how does one cross-reference/approve these types of books? Every year it seems that ‘new’ doctors, scientists, nutritional experts comes along and sell us ‘new’ stories about how not to trust things that have been written by doctors, scientists, nutritional experts?
I now enjoy a lot of things I had cut out due to the perceived health/planetary benefits.
Convenient truths or inconvenient untruths? So how would I know what is better for my health, my budget, my immediate environment, and for the global crisis? (Disregarding personal morals)
Re ‘planetary benefits’, would I listen to a bestseller-writing nutritionist/guru, and/or a wide global selection of (sometimes conflicting) articles and studies about our existing food systems and their contribution to climate change, mass-species extinction/loss of biodiversity?
We are (as a species and as a biosphere) at tipping point/cliff-edge, with great losses already underway - and yet we’re still not agreeing with the preponderance of scientific evidence and opinion.
I think it's been covered already, but not eating meat, but eating fish? That's crackers, from a moral and ethical viewpoint.
Go full veggie or carry on with the meat.
Fish, from trawlers, have a long slow death, in effect drowning over around 10 minutes. Shellfish are boiled to death. Oysters and other things are eaten alive.
Then you get to fishings environmental failings. Trawled fishers catch 100/1000's of non-wanted species, including dolphins/seals/sharks/turtles etc. They are thrown back in the water, to probably die. Trawlers just take. They put nothing back into the ecosystem, at least meat farmers breed new animals each year to keep the population steady. Trawlers take everything from one area, then move onto another area to decimate that.
Shellfish trawlers ruin the seabed, the same ground they take from cannot be used by the shellfish for many years afterwards as it is ruined.
Farmed fish is getting better, but is still not good. The waste from the growing fish ruins the seabed where they are caged up. They are prone to ticks and diseases. They are given a slow death again when they are pulled out - there isnt a man there knocking them on their head to kill them, they are left to struggle to breathe until dead.
Compare that to meat farming, at least in this Country, and meat wins by a long way in ethical and moral standards. But if that bothers you, veggie is the only way to go.
Bang on alanl 👍
Seriously though, how does one cross-reference/approve these types of books? Every year it seems that ‘new’ doctors, scientists, nutritional experts comes along and sell us ‘new’ stories about how not to trust things that have been written by doctors, scientists, nutritional experts?
Check the qualifications of the person writing it as a first step "nutritionist" has no meaning. many snake oil salesfolk use impressive sounding titles that when you check are meaningless. Read up on Mckeith for a classic example
Then check where they have been published and check what the refer to
I was a pescatarian for 15 years, I simply opted out of meat at the age of 15, I love sea food and was happy to choose the veggie options when the menu wasn't so fishy. It was fine, I was still able to gorge myself fat at various times during that period
I eventually went back on the burgers at 30 due to having a weining baby, a carnivorous wife and meal times just becoming an utter ballache where we were essentially preparing 3 different meals every time.
Over a decade on from that now and I would happily go back to a pescatarian diet but the boss is well into the habit of eating meat (too bloody often IMO) and it's now quite difficult to separate out diets.
It's much easier when you're completely in charge of what you eat... I really don't think meat has done me any good, and I'm quite aware now that meat and dairy farming is a pretty substantial contributor to global polution...
As religions go its not too bad. You have a nice buring bush as your symbol and I agree with placing great importance upon education and lifelong learning, knowing your actions cannot influence salvation.................
Dealing with having to justify your diet choice to both full meat eaters who don't want anyone to not eateat and vegans and vegetarians who don't want anyone to eat any meat. You will be hated and hounded by them all.
Farmed fish is getting better, but is still not good. The waste from the growing fish ruins the seabed where they are caged up. They are prone to ticks and diseases. They are given a slow death again when they are pulled out – there isnt a man there knocking them on their head to kill them, they are left to struggle to breathe until dead.
I'm afraid this is something of an out of date view. It is a young industry and many criticisms can be levied at some of the early approaches as it learned in the 20th century. Now, however, the regulation is reasonably strong and the precautionary principle heavily applied by regulators who will act if any breaches occur.
You're right that there's no man knocking them on the head - it is mechanical and takes seconds from swimming to dead.
Dealing with having to justify your diet choice to both full meat eaters who don’t want anyone to not eateat and vegans and vegetarians who don’t want anyone to eat any meat. You will be hated and hounded by them all.
How often are you hated and hounded? Be honest. I’ve changed my diet over a number of years, as a meateater I also married a pescatarian who later became vegan. Neither of us have been hated nor hounded* to my knowledge. She’s had to ‘justify’ it to curious family members, but that’s no biggie. Certainly not interfered in each other’s or anyone else’s diets.
*Tell a lie, she was once publicly jeered at (does that count as hounded?) and hated in the queue at a local farmer’s market. For the crime of buying me meat sausages!
‘Try a sausage love?
‘No thanks, they’re for my husband, he’s not here - so which are the most popular?’
‘Go on, have a try of this one’
‘No thanks, I’m sure they’re nice but I don’t eat meat’
(married couple in queue behind, loudly, mocking) ‘oh no, one of those bloody vegans, I bet she’s a liberal as well eh?’
‘Yes, and I burned my bra too, enjoy your day!’
That story is such a perfect little slice of hereabouts in the world. But it’s going back 15 years or so and only happened once. She’s had quite a few ‘foreigners’ comments as well. Our Most Brexity Friend Forever is a militant meat-eater and he complains at the table over his son and my wife both eating non-meat xmas dinners, yet it’s mostly in jest.
But seriously, how often are people hated and hounded for what we eat? (Unless you count such outliers as above, or the majority of youtube comments?) 🤣
How often are you hated and hounded?
I'm a full meat eater but a mate of mine who is vegan I have witnessed people get quite aggressive with him. He is not sanctimonious, doesn't try to "convert" people, just states (when apocopate) that he is vegan. One bit stick in my head of one guy going on a rant and then finishing with "you won't turn me". It was quite bizzar!
More generally I think my point is made by this thread. There is a fair few posts saying just go one way or the other, you choice doesn't make sense... We are all on a journey and harassing people for not being at the same point as oneself is what I don't like. I hope that makes sense not the clearest I know.
You're right probably not that common but OP was looking for the downsides 😉
You will be hated and hounded by them all.
Only if you engage in those sort of conversations. I mean as a fishatarian, yeah you're neither one thing or the other, like most people in fact. You've really just picked a specific subset of omnivorous diet that happens to have its own name.
In much the same way many typical Western "meat eaters" would turn their nose up at Horse, cat or dog a pescatarian is just as fussy over cow, piggy or chicken.
Plus you're never going to placate a militant vegan (not that you meet many really) so why bother to try?
Could be worse. You could become a Flexitarian. 😉
make the sauce from scratch with tinned toms / passata rather than sauce jars laden with sugar and salt
Not all bought sauce jars are full of sugar and salt. Check the label. It'll tell you what % is sugar, but then compare it with a tin of toms and see what the difference is.
Re meat - there are good and bad ways to farm both meat and plants. There's a farm on my local ride that's on top of a hill, he does sheep and cows. The same cows (yes, I ride there that often) are nearly always out in the field or in the woods eating mostly grass. He also sells lamb and beef directly to the public. I could have meat, potatoes, cauli cheese, and carrots and it could all be locally produced, or at least within 80 or so miles. A lot of vegetarian options seem to be full of tomatoes, aubergines, courgettes etc which are seasonal and in winter probably flown in from somewhere hot and sunny.
If this farmer weren't raising cows and sheep on that land, I am not sure he'd be able to raise plant based food, so the land would not be producing food - and that plant based food would have to be flown in from somewhere else. So meat=bad plant=good is a little more complex than it would seem at first.
It's all really interesting when you start digging into it. When I was a teenager, so 30 odd years ago now, I was pescetarian. No real reason other than I wasn't that fussed about land based flesh and you know it was cool and edgy :-). That lasted for about 4 years until I really fancied a dirty burger.
Fast-forward and 2 years ago I stopped eating dairy. I just thought the practices behind it didn't align to my ethical views. Other views are available. I still ate meat and fish (organic /MSC) as I figured the animals had a reasonable life then got killed in a vaguely ethical way compared to being killed by natural predators. Although as AlanL says above fish is an interesting one.
So eventually a year and a month ago I just thought bollocks to it all and went Vegan. Primarily for environmental reasons.
Molegrips makes some good points about his specific locale. Completely see where he's coming from regarding transportation impact buying seasonal and supporting local busyness. This article digs into it in more detail, https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20200211-why-the-vegan-diet-is-not-always-green
I can't claim to have looked into it any more than some articles that were published about the impact of not eating animal products and the environment.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-49238749
Ultimately my view is if you cut down on your meat/dairy consumption even by one meal a week it will have a positive impact on the environment.
Edit: To add my main bugbear with going vegan is not being able to drink some beers because of the fining process or because they contain lactose 🙁
Could be worse. You could become a Flexitarian. 😉
Is that only eating while doing yoga?
Ultimately my view is if you cut down on your meat/dairy consumption even by one meal a week it will have a positive impact on the environment.
Look at that, a pragmatic, proportionate response from a vegan, it's almost like you're not an angry, fundamentalist maniac or something... What is the world coming to.
So it is your assertion that a plant based diet is the same, better or worse for the planet and has more, less or the same involvement of animals in its production than a diet that includes mass produced meat?
It’s different. Not better, not worse. A lot depends on how you choose to eat. Is locally produced meat better or worse than some of the mass produced factory made plant based proteins that are then transported half way round the world.
All food needs some fertiliser to help it grow. So do you use local animal based fertilizers that are effectively a waste product of livestock farming or do you use non organic ones that are usual made from oil or mineral bases mined on an industrial scale, made in huge factories and then shipped half way round the world?
Of course like many things - there is only so much meat that can be produced on land that can't grow anything else, which is probably less than we produce now. In the UK (and probably most of Western Europe) things have settled down over the years with things being produced where they can be produced well. But in other parts of the world natural environments are being destroyed to produce beef, which even if it's sustainable may not be desirable.
In the USA, dairy farmers are paid a subsidy proportional to the distance from Eau Claire, Wisconsin. So cattle ranching in places like Texas or California, where it wouldn't normally be profitable, is propped up. They are producing small amounts of beef and dairy from huge areas of land which are being environmentally depleted.
If they (we) ate less beef then that financial imperative would disappear so the grasslands could recover. But on the other hand, how much land should be left to nature? We all need food after all. Why shouldn't the non-arable land on my local bike ride revert to woodland if we weren't eating the beef? And if that happened, what would we eat instead?
I’d recommend the BOSH cook books
Their Chilli is one of the nicest ones I've ever made!
If this farmer weren’t raising cows and sheep on that land, I am not sure he’d be able to raise plant based food, so the land would not be producing food – and that plant based food would have to be flown in from somewhere else. So meat=bad plant=good is a little more complex than it would seem at first.
Indeed it is - and it's something I've been over a lot. You can't grow crops up the side of mountain for example.
Two thoughts.
Firstly the percentage of land used for animal production, once you take into account the land used to grow crops to feed the animals is pretty massive for a much less massive percentage of the calories and protein grown. A plant based diet could yield the same number of calories (and protein) on much less land. It might well mean a good proportion of the land currently used for animals but unsuitable for anything else could go back to nature. Rewilded uplands or marshy flood plains. Or forests.
Secondly, and taking Chris' very valid point about fertilizing crops without oil based products, surely the goal should be not to bin the farms you are talking about but consuming so much less meat that we are no longer dependant on the imported meat from huge mega farms bred on 100% feed or carved out of virgin rain forest. If some of us ate no meat and others cut back (and were prepared to pay more for UK produced meat because they are eating less - so budget neutral) that could be achieved.
All food needs some fertiliser to help it grow. So do you use local animal based fertilizers that are effectively a waste product of livestock farming or do you use non organic ones that are usual made from oil or mineral bases mined on an industrial scale, made in huge factories and then shipped half way round the world?
There's another option. You could use waste from the plant based food that gets produced, and the waste from the animals that eat it (i.e. us) as fertiliser.
The nutrients that are in the soil don't leave the planet*, so it's just a case of recycling them appropriately and getting them back to where they're needed.
* well, some does. Astronauts take earth-based food into orbit and shit it into space, so maybe some of that stays up there.
we are no longer dependant on the imported meat from huge mega farms bred on 100% feed or carved out of virgin rain forest
Serious question - how much meat eaten in the UK is produced that way?
I have read about the sustainability of meat production, and most of the articles that come up are based on US beef specifically, because it's the worst of all worlds and the authors want shocking numbers. But, as per Brexit negotiations, I don't think that can currently be bought here can it? Lamb and especially chicken are nowhere near as bad, overall, and that's not even discussing the UK where lamb is often farmed in upland areas with little intervention.
And then there's food availability and security to discuss. Ireland produces a lot of beef, which they export. Would they be able to switch to veg production, or would they become dependent on imports?
And what would we actually eat? What vegetarian dishes are you eating? How much foreign food is in them? If we were rewilding pastorally viable parts of Britain would we them be relying on imported food more?
Serious question – how much meat eaten in the UK is produced that way?
The British meat industry claim 35% or 250,000 tonnes of beef is imported into the UK annually but as you say a lot of that comes from Ireland.
go for it OP and good on you. the world will be a better place if we use our time to do what we can, instead of spending it arguing about what we should be doing whilst not actually doing anything at all.
Don't label yourself and eat what you want
I do find it funny when some people say they don't eat meat, but they eat fish. I mean, they're both meat? Do people think fish aren't part of the animal kingdom?
not eating meat, but eating fish? That’s crackers, from a moral and ethical viewpoint.
Go full veggie or carry on with the meat.
By that logic, if you're not veggie you might as well eat people.
Check the qualifications of the person writing it as a first step “nutritionist” has no meaning. many snake oil salesfolk use impressive sounding titles that when you check are meaningless. Read up on Mckeith for a classic example
I think it was Robin Ince who said, "Gillian McKeith, or to give her her full professional title, 'Gillian McKeith'".
The professional, protected title is Dietician. Anyone can call themselves a Nutritionist, I keep meaning to try and get my cat registered.
a mate of mine who is vegan I have witnessed people get quite aggressive with him. He is not sanctimonious, doesn’t try to “convert” people, just states (when apocopate) that he is vegan. One bit stick in my head of one guy going on a rant and then finishing with “you won’t turn me”.
I'm pleased that P7 hasn't really experienced this but your post here is much closer to my own experiences. It's very common, less so these days but still happens. It's almost like because there's this stereotypical expectation that you're going to start evangelising, they feel the need to get the first blow in. I'm more than happy to discuss it in threads like this but nine times out of ten I just want to have my dinner in peace without some defensive carnivore threatening to pull out the teeth I wasn't using. (This actually happened to me once, not as a real "I'm in actual danger" aggressive threat but as a point to argue.)
I can think of a big downside for the fish
If you’re doing it for health reasons then just eat healthier, if you want to reduce the unnecessary cruelty in n the world then just go full veggie then move over to full vegan when you’re ready
Anything else is just a diet change and doesn’t need a name or announcement on the internet
I do find it funny when some people say they don’t eat meat, but they eat fish. I mean, they’re both meat? Do people think fish aren’t part of the animal kingdom?
It's just a shorthand. "I don't eat meat except for fish" might be more accurate?
I find it bloody frustrating when it's the other way around though. Again, much less common these days than it used to be, but I've been in restaurants where the vegetarian option* has been a tuna pasta bake. And even now I still get "do you eat fish?" when people find out I'm veggie because, as you suggest, that well known vegetable the haddock. I did a little dance of joy mentally when I saw the thread title.
(* - a single dish on the entire menu that I can eat is not an "option" unless you're happy that the options you're providing to me are 1) eat it, 2) go hungry and watch everyone else eat or 3) **** off somewhere else. Because I totally feel like a valued customer when everyone else is tucking into a slap-up meal and I'm pushing a bowl of chips around.
And of course, if I'm with people I don't know very well then this then draws attention from the "but whyyyyyyyyyyy?" brigade and off we go again for another round of the same old tedious clichés. Eat your steak and STFU, leave me alone.)
Anything else is just a diet change and doesn’t need a name or announcement on the internet
Veganism aside, it's all just a diet change really. But names are helpful for the benefit of explaining to other people because gods know it's challenging enough sometimes when it does have a label.
in peace without some defensive carnivore threatening to pull out the teeth I wasn’t using. (This actually happened to me once
Eye teeth - string - doorknob - knock-run?
Nasty business. It’s the mental scarring that outlasts the gaps.
Havent eaten meat for 10 years plus, and before that I had long spells of being meat free. Tried going full veggie but had to relent, my body was falling to bits as I was training very hard at that time.
Been mostly pescatarian for 10 years plus,but I was eating lots of fish years before that too.
Regardless of any of the other factors like ethics, environment, etc, I have noticed that my digestive system has become accustomed to dealing with a mostly fish diet. If for any length of time I go without fish, I notice a definite difference in my digestion. Makes sense really that my biome has become adapted to process mostly fish as its the majority protein source it has experienced for over 20 years.
Just something to think about, no recommendations either way here.
Fish are wild animals. Turning the sea into a desert is a bad idea.
We eat fish a lot. Fortunately in Stafford we have a brilliant fishmonger, Parker's, who gets the finest fish. In fact I'll be there at lunchtime picking up the lobster, oysters and scallops for Mrs BigJohn's birthday tonight.
No need to miss bacon; the "Fish!" Restaurant in Borough Market does the the finest club sandwich you'll ever eat with crispy grilled smoked salmon.
But the downsides to eating fish? The price! Flipping heck! The meat in the lobster will be probably £60 per kilo, John Dory about £45 Scallops £39. Lovely but not cheap.
Pescatarianism = virtue signalling.
Downsides:
1. Eating fish causes damage to ecosystems; https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/may/09/seas-stop-eating-fish-fishing-industry-government
2. Fishing is the largest plastic polluter in the ocean; https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/nov/06/dumped-fishing-gear-is-biggest-plastic-polluter-in-ocean-finds-report
3. Fishing is cruel to animals; https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/cif-green/2010/sep/14/fish-forgotten-victims
Pescatarianism = virtue signalling
Rubbish. Unless you add "In my opinion" to the statement.
The biggest issue with going pescatarian right now is that the UK fishing industry appears to be in the process of being killed off by Alexander's fantastic deal, but anyway.
My partner was Vege for 20 years, then pesc for about 10 years, but now omni. Mostly due to the difficulty of eating in countries such as France, US, Libya etc whilst traveling for work.
She still gets old acquaintances being aggressive to her about her food choices. It's quite tiresome.
The biggest issue with going pescatarian right now is that the UK fishing industry appears to be in the process of being killed off by Alexander’s fantastic deal, but anyway.
Being pescatarian in the UK (mostly) doesn't rely on the UK fishing industry, it relies on the EU / rest of the world's fishing industry.
I mean, your point probably still stands, but most of the UK's fishing industry output is export not domestic.
Going pescatarian – downsides?
I read that as going presbyterian - Downsides.
Well where to begin...:P
Pescatarianism = virtue signalling.
Only if I start espousing the virtues of it and criticising people I see eating meat
I have “bacon | processed | pretending to be meat | but why? | I couldn’t do it” so far. I just need incisors, depth perception and leather shoes for a line.
We don't have to fight fire with fire, everyone get's burned that way.
I'll eat whatever takes my fancy when allowed out. At home there's also a good mix of omni, veggie and vegan dishes in the menu too. It's all (usually) good stuff.
On the vegan front some of the recipes I tried early on were vile flavourless or tainted things, all part of the learning process on my part. Aqua farba as a replacement for egg in muffins, just no! I would rather go without. Cake is one of the few things I find difficult to get right for vegan cooking.
@dyna-ti that would really suck the fun out of life!
Apart from the fish - few posts have mentioned cutting out dairy (and that eating dairy has side effects).
Those of you who have cut out dairy - what are the benefits? (Environment aside)
The main downside is eating fish which lets face it stinks and is totally revolting. How anyone can eat it is genuinely beyond me. The smell of it makes me gag.
Mostly due to the difficulty of eating in countries such as France, US, Libya etc whilst traveling for work.
I have some mild aspirations to do the transcontinental (or similar and a bit shorter and easier to get in if perfectly honest) in the next couple of years. Eating vegan out of far flung garage shops for 10 days and not just eating oreos I suspect is going to be a project. But being veggie and living in Turkey in the 90s was pretty straight forwards. Shades of difficulty and compromise I guess.
Cutting out dairy for me has meant less indigestion/reflux.
Had one shortbread biscuit yesterday and the reflux was instantaneous, not worth it!
Heard a radio interview with nutrition researcher Tim Spector that might be relevant here:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000rlpz
Eating
veganout of far flung garage shops for 10 days and not just eating oreos I suspect is going to be a project.
Humus and carrots are the safest bet in those shops, whatever your dietary requirements. Carry a folding knife for peeling.
Sometimes you can get veg samosas which are vegan. Some garage shops sell fresh fruit that isn’t pre-cut and sealed in a plastic dome.
And ... pickled onion Space Raiders.
@convert - I suspect you'll be broadly ok now. But for herself, having yet another omelette and frites (France), or a salad with the tuna picked off by hand in front of her (Spain), or a specific vegetarian dish that resulted in the classic response, "that's not meat, that's ham" (France), or when asking for anything that didn't contain steak, "this isn't that kind of town" (Houston), meant that traveling on her own on month long trips got old extremely quickly. Mumbai apparently was good food though...
the classic response, “that’s not meat, that’s ham” (France)
lol had that one when I was vegetarian, +20 years ago in Spain. First visit to my GF's village, and she'd been telling her mother and grandmother what to cook. Part of the problem comes from the language: in Spanish, "carne" means "meat", but unless you're a bit more specific about it, it means beef.
It's a lot easier now, at least in the big cities, but back then eating out was a problem.
Right. I've ordered 2 copies of the BOSH cook book, one to me and one to my daughter's house. Any other recommendations of books or recipes from the vegetarians on here?