You don't need to be an 'investor' to invest in Singletrack: 6 days left: 95% of target - Find out more
So, my mum has an iPhone (4s I think) which just died about 3 weeks from being two years old.
So, armed with the STW hive of knowledge of all things Sales of Goods, Apple's second to none customer service etc I stomp off to the Apple store with her to see about getting it sorted.
First chap we speak to says we have no chance. 1 year warranty end off. So I mention the 2 year EU statute and he spouts something about how yes that does apply but only if the fault is discovered in the first 6 months of ownership.
So I say, you mean I need to have had the fault since the phone was less 6 months old and then I would have up to two years to report it and get it fixed.
That was, he said, the case. I could check the T&C's on the Apple website. So, went to cool off and have a quick look at the said T&C's (on my lovely Lumia 925 I hasten to add) and I see that the T&C's just mention an EU claim period of 2 years. Nothing about 6 months anywhere.
So back I go, speak to another chap who was slightly less 'computer says no' but somewhat baffled by my logic of actually showing him the T&C's so a manager was summoned.
He explained that yes, the fault has to be found in the first 6 months for the onus of proof of the fault being the manufacturers to lie with them, the seller. After this the onus of proof lies with the buyer to prove that they had not damaged the good etc.
I argue the toss (politely but assertively of course) and explain they are free to examine the phone and they would see it was well treat etc and that if they could perhaps advise how I might prove that the phone had not been mistreated I was happy to help how I could.
In the end the manager (who was actually very good) took the phone away examined it and has agreed to replace with a brand spanker free of charge.
Shame it had to be such an effort though - if my mum had been on her own she would have just sucked it up and left it. Shows you sometimes just have to stand your ground (and of course swat up on your rights as a consumer by reading STW).
Cheers
Danny B
They take a bit of effort the people in the Apple store, but I came out with £50's worth of chargers for my iPad after complaining about battery charging and charger compatibility after iOS 7 update... They did ask the person waiting patiently next to me at the "genius bar" to move to another seat whilst we discussed the issue though.
if my mum had been on her own she would have just sucked it up and left it.
Although, if your mum had been on her own, she may not have "stomped" down to the shop.
She may not have had to "cool off"
And she may have got more helpful service because of it 😉
I got my 4s replaced with no discussion at all after 23 months as the battery wasn't lasting anymore.
I was in buying a second charger to use at work, and happened to mention it to the guy in passing, and that it was really annoying and he sorted it out without any need to quote EU regulations etc.
New phone, and no need to buy a new charger 🙂
I got my 4s replaced with no discussion at all after 23 months as the battery wasn't lasting anymore.
So in your case Apple obeyed the law and did what they were required to do ?
Nope, in his case (and the one above) they went further than the law requires.
So. Let's see. They give you a new phone replacing one nearly 2 years old. And you complain.
Right
OK
So in your case Apple obeyed the law and did what they were required to do ?
Not really, if they decided to apply the law, it would have been down to me to prove that there was a defect present on delivery.
No way I could have done that.
With issues like that it's best to go and book a genius appointment,
the sales guys are just sales really. the genius guys look after you and know the law properly - and have the authority to authorise replacements etc.
rather than just rock and roll up waving SOGA, book an appointment and arrive on time.
but whatever, you got a new phone so means to the same end init.
Nope, in his case (and the one above) they went further than the law requires.
well, poor battery life was/is a well-reported intrinsic fault of iphones wasn't it ? Similarly, the sheer weight of reports connecting OS updates to failures would make it hard to deny that it was a software/hardware incompatibility.
If it came to it, all you'd need to do is convince a small claims court of that and you'd win. Presumably Apple knows this - I suspect the question is how hard they wriggle before caving if you're persistent. They could easily offer a partial refund but, given the exorbitant list prices, I suspect it's cheaper for them to replace.
(I dunno, is it even acceptable for them to offer a similarly aged/used refurb or can you insist on repair or refund ?)
well, poor battery life was/is a well-reported intrinsic fault of iphones wasn't it ?
Batteries wear out over time.
It's not a fault that was present at delivery.
Just a worn out battery.
Simple question then, have a 'friend' who has a 4s which is in great condition and has been well looked after. But the power button is no longer functioning. Unit is less than 2 years of age, should she be able to get it replaced?
iphone batteries are not user-replaceable (are they ?) hence need to last an acceptable time or be replaced when needed. Failure to provide such would be a fault present from the time of assembly IMO - then again, I'm not a SCcourt.
A 500 quid phone should be usable beyond 23 months without significant deterioration in function. They would need at least to return the phone to its original operating capability
iphone batteries are not user-replaceable (are they ?)
Officially no, but it's very easy to do and kits are very cheap (see Ebay etc).
Danny b champion of the world!
Toby> depends where "they" bought it
Simple question then, have a 'friend' who has a 4s which is in great condition and has been well looked after. But the power button is no longer functioning. Unit is less than 2 years of age, should she be able to get it replaced?
Book a genius appointment and find out.
(Mine was fluff/muck between the contacts when I went, they fixed it in 5 mins)
They cleaned the fluff out of my power button (4s) whilst I waited....
A 500 quid phone should be usable beyond 23 months without significant deterioration in function.
That's easy to say, but what is "significant" ? Lots of variables etc.
Personally, I wouldn't fancy taking Apple to court over it.
My point was, they replaced it without any fuss.
(Possibly helped by the fact I wasn't stomping about the shop waving the SOGA about 
)
See, that's the trouble - Samsung can probably legitimately say batteries are subject to something like wear and tear and you need to source a new one. They'll then show you how to replace it with reference to their manual.Officially no
Apple presumably can't do the same as it's "officially" integral to the phone
(Neal - It looks like dannybg mentioned the SOGA [u]after[/u] they told him to do one)
[b]Neal glover[/b]. It is meant to be able to do the job it is designed for, for at least 2 years. The battery is an integral component, not like oil, water or electricity. If a car's battery stopped working within the initial warrantee I'd expect it it be replaced 😕
It didn't stop working.
It just didn't last as long as it used to.
[b]And they replaced it without any arguments 😐 ![/b]
That's significant, IMO. I guess you could do a timed test vs a new phone if you could be arsed.the battery wasn't lasting anymore.
... and that it was really annoying
I wouldn't fancy taking them to court, but I'd be willing to do it if they told me to f'off after 23months ("they" being whoever sold me the phone, quite possibly a network provider)
Just to to clarify they are obliged to repair, not replace. Consumer electronics being what it is, it may be cheaper to offer a replacement so it's a good scenario for the customer.
That's significant, IMO.
Your opinion wouldn't be enough to convince me to take Apple to court I'm afraid.
As much as I agree with it.
I wouldn't fancy taking them to court, but I'd be willing to do it if they told me to f'off after 23months ("they" being whoever sold me the phone, quite possibly a network provider)
I bought it from Apple.
And as I've said a few times.
They replaced it without any problem.
No discussion.
No hassle.
I didn't even ask them to. [b]I went in to buy a charger. [/b]
My point was. . .
Possibly, the reason I got the replacement as easily as I did, was because I wasn't causing a fuss, and waving about the SOGA demanding things.
They would have done it anyway, if I had demanded and stomped. because they would probably have to.
But the easiest way is always the best in my book.
And as I've said a few times.
They replaced it without any problem.
No discussion.
No hassle.
I didn't even ask them to. I went in to buy a charger.
Yes, yes - you're a much better person than dannybg and all the other people who haven't been given new devices and sex on the genius bar. Serves them right for offering the staff out as soon as they walked in, I guess
My daughter ripped the innards out my just over a year old 3GS by kindly removing that charger with force. You had to squeeze the sides on the original charger. Popped into Apple and they replaced it for £100 for a brand new phone. Didn't even have to sit in the huffy corner to get that.
Guy next to me got a free one though for his daughter dropping his down the bog.
A 500 quid phone should be usable beyond 23 months without significant deterioration in function.
The phone will, generally speaking, but the battery is something made by another company, and Apple have no control over any variables in QC or lifespan. Something else which should be taken into account, and which is very little known, is the problem of 'tin whiskers', caused by the EU forcing manufacturers to use tin-based solder on circuit-boards. Tin solder grows microscopic 'whiskers' over time, which causes a minute transfer of current, and subsequent draining of battery power, thus reducing battery life. Lead solder doesn't do this.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/12/121204194246.htm
Stamp your feet all you like when an expensive electronic device fails before you think it should, but the blame shouldn't be directed at companies like Apple, who take great care in manufacturing products to the highest standards.
My iPhone 4 is still in use, pretty much every day, in fact it gets used more often than my 5, with Shazam and a 3 sim for unlimited data, and it's working fine with iOS 7 installed.
It's a simple fact that you'll find lots of people on the Internet making a noise over whatever issue their phone, pad or whatever is having, but as an actual percentage of the tens of millions who don't have issues they're statistically insignificant.
so you got a phone, worth hundreds of pounds, replaced out of warranty, for free, and you complain.
the battery is something made by another company, and Apple have no control over any variables in QC or lifespan.
in the 5 are bits made by..
Renesas Electronics, a semiconductor manufacturer.
Sumitomo Chemicals
Qualcomm
Texas Instruments
Broadcom
SK Hynix
Sony
Samsung
and Foxconn who makes 40% of the bits inside
i could go on
Yes, yes - you're a much better person than dannybg and all the other people who haven't been given new devices and sex on the genius bar. Serves them right for offering the staff out as soon as they walked in, I guess
That's very generous of you 😐
But I'm just saying there is maybe a better approach to achieve the same result that's all.
I hadn't realised advice was the sort of thing that wasn't welcomed.
I'll bare it mind in future.
Perhaps you need to reread the OP?
He got the run around.
Your happy experience might be due to luck rather than your superior personality and approach.
Perhaps you need to reread the OP?
He got the run around.
Your happy experience might be due to luck rather than your superior personality and approach.
I give up. He said in the OP that he "stomped down to the shop"
Anyway, I'll not bother in future.
I think the "hard of thinking" are out in force tonight.
Just to clarify, my mum went in and did the talking at first. Explained the phone had just completely died and that she was quite desperate as she couldn't get her contacts and photos off.
The first chap we spoke to did the 'computer says no' routine - not interested at all.
At that point I said I thought there was a 2 year warranty etc and he referred me to their website where apparently it made the terms clear.
Yes I did scuttle off at that point as he was beginning to wind me up and I thought better to leave before an argument ensued.
When we went back I did the talking but was not aggressive at all - just showed them their own T&C's and asked them to point me to this malarkey about 6 months etc.
Manager duly fetched who to be fair was excellent, got a 'genius' on it straight away and saw the phone was clearly properly knackered and agreed a replacement.
My point is that it should not have got that far and a lot of people would have given up and gone home unhappy but defeated. I didn't have to get aggressive or argumentative but certainly had to convey some dissatisfaction otherwise we would have got nowhere.
The stomping bit was merely a turn of phrase - I did not go in there all guns blazing, far from it as I know that is not the way to endear people to help.
oh and @ Neal G - I am intrigued.
You went to an Apple store to buy a charger and with no discussion and with you not asking they offered up a new phone.
Telepathy?
The phone will, generally speaking, but the battery is something made by another company, and Apple have no control over any variables in QC or lifespan.
Sorry, but absolute rubbish.
Apple spec the battery, and should ensure it meets their (Apples) spec.
Sure, they can't control the QC of the battery supplier, but they have their own QC. If the battery doesn't meet the spec, reject it.
The phone will, generally speaking, but the battery is something made by another company, and Apple have no control over any variables in QC or lifespan.
This is incorrect I am afraid. Apple don't have complete control but would have a [i]very[/i] firm grip on their supply chain.
@danny did she buy the phone t the apple store originally or did it come from the mobile phone company. I just wonder what people with a Samsung or a Nokia do when there is an issue ? You did get a new for old replacement, appreciate that it wasn't trivial but I think that's pretty outstanding as I suspect she didn't buy the phone from pole and warranty is repair not replace. As above the batteries are easily replaceable and quite cheap.
She actually did get it from the Apple store - she is a proper Apple fangirl - iPad, iMac, Air, iPod Touch Nano and Shuffle.
She would not have stood a chance had she not got it from the store as the warranty would be between wherever she bought it from and her, not the Apple store.
As I say, to be fair to the manager and once they had run the diagnostics and it had come up with multiple component failures he did his bit but had it not been for some polite persistence she would not have got anything but an expensive repair bill.
The phone will, generally speaking, but the battery is something made by another company, and Apple have no control over any variables in QC or lifespan.
This is incorrect I am afraid. Apple don't have complete control but would have a very firm grip on their supply chain.
Well of course they do, and Tim Cook is the acknowledged master of controlling the supply chain, but he isn't omnipotent, he has no overall control over every third-party's production line, so cannot vet every battery that goes into an Apple product, which was clearly shown with the issues surrounding Sony batteries spontaneously igniting in PowerBooks several years ago. When there are tens of millions of batteries being produced every year for iPhones and iPods alone, there are almost certainly going to be a percentage which will fail early, for whatever reason; that is a statistical fact, nothing is 100% perfect. Anyone expecting any product to be 100% perfect, flawless, and to last for many years without fail is deluding themselves. The home button on my iP4 is a bit flaky, this is a known issue, due to Apple changing the button mechanism for a quieter, softer click. They changed it back for the iP5, but apparently customers have complained about the 'new' button being too noisy!
What are Apple to do? Stick with a component that fails early, or stick with a component that doesn't, but gets complaints for other reasons?
Damned if you do, damned if you don't.
I'm going to try that battery copout next time a customer moans about one of our valves. Somehow, I can't see it working. 🙂
@CZ - not have a button?!
Android and WP have done away with such 20th century technology (for the Home option, I know they still use them for volume etc) - surely Apple can!
She would not have stood a chance had she not got it from the store as the warranty would be between wherever she bought it from and her, not the Apple store.
Apple don't care where you bought it from they're very good for that and one of the reasons it's worth buying their products for.
When you buy a phone, any phone, that's what you're buying. You're not buying a bag of bits. If one part of the phone isn't too spec, you can't go back to the battery manufacturer and complain, you complain (justifiably) to the phone manufacturer, who should take the hit. That's part of the cost of running a business. The phone manufacturer should get redress from the battery supplier.
Anything else is a cop out.
@Drac - so people keep saying but that was not my experience today. In fact every time I have been to the Meadowhall Apple store (with the exception of the manager today) I have found the staff to be disinterested bordering on rude (note I rarely am involved in the conversations before anyone accuses me of being a thugish rogue 😉 - merely an observer.
Even the manager said it was only because my mum had originally got the phone from there that he was swapping it out as a thank you for her custom when she could have got it from a myriad of other places.
Battery defence is a load of balls...
Surely if that was the case they could just say if your screen, charger, camera etc break that's not their fault either as they only stick the logo on and don't make any of the workings of the phone 🙄
The phone is made by apple, if they purchase inadequate individual components from their suppliers then that is their issue to take up not yours as the person who bought a entire phone from them
I'm not at all techie but I do think the iPhone is woeful. I got one against my better judgement some months ago and loathe it but stuck with the bloody thing now.
My mrs one broke and all apple wanted to do was "keep it to fix it" . Yeah right and take all her personal details off it. Wouldn't let it out of our sight, so couldn't get it fixed. Horrible company IMO.
tinfoil hat time? /\
Yep, count zero, got to say, that's utter bobbins. If my car breaks down, I'm going straight to VW and giving them grief. if they say 'well, the issue is the injectors, and as Bosch make those, it's not out fault, so really you're just statistically unlucky, and you'll have to suck it up', the individual in question is likely to have my boot up is arse!
Well of course they do, and Tim Cook is the acknowledged master of controlling the supply chain, but he isn't omnipotent, he has no overall control over every third-party's production line, so cannot vet every battery that goes into an Apple product.
The first part of that sentence does not correspond to the second. Proper control of the supply chain does indeed allow you to define and control processes for your suppliers. And in the case of serious QC issues I would be amazed if Apple did not have access to adequate data.
I will remind you that initially you stated "no control".
Agree with the second part of your post. It probably is possible to manufacture a battery that's much more reliable, but the cost would not work for the product. It's impossible to know if the i-phone battery failures are within design tolerance.
oh and @ Neal G - I am intrigued.You went to an Apple store to buy a charger and with no discussion and with you not asking they offered up a new phone.
Telepathy?
If you are intrigued, then try reading what wrote.
It's pretty straightforward.........
I was in buying a second charger to use at work, and happened to mention it to the guy in passing, and that it was really annoying and he sorted it out without any need to quote EU regulations etc.
I mentioned why I was buying a second charger, in passing, and he sorted me out a new phone instead.
.
My mrs one broke and all apple wanted to do was "keep it to fix it" . Yeah right and take all her personal details off it. Wouldn't let it out of our sight, so couldn't get it fixed. Horrible company IMO.
So due to your own tin foil hat paranoia, you refused to let them honour their warranty obligations.
And you think that is somehow their fault ?? 🙄
sex on the genius bar.
They don't call him Neal G Lover for nothing 😀
The G is short for Gangsta I believe.
@ Neal G - so there was a discussion. You asked for a charger, they asked why, you told them etc etc. Sounds like a discussion to me!
That's all that was confusing me...
I admit I wrote my post the wrong side of too much wine and cast moderation aside, for which apologies. It was out if warranty, and the switch on the top had died. To remove needs an apple tool for some reason to remove two small screws- shouldn't take long. But I don't think it is paranoid to let people you don't know have it for a period of time - what stops them taking off all your private details? I think that demonstrates a rather naive level if trust in the world, personally, but if you think that is paranoia, let's leave it there.
Still don't like my iPhone!
what stops them taking off all your private details?
Your password?
Step 1. Get problem
Step 2. Book Genius bar appointment
Step 3. Explain problem
Step 4. Apple Genius potentially runs diagnostics
Step 5. Apple Genius decides if you should have a new phone.
If you follow the right steps, it should end well for you. For some reason everyone expects a free new phone.
They have an excellent track record of fantastic customer service in their Apple stores and are often willing to give away a new phone (actually a refurbished phone) to replace a broken one. I don't think you can say the same for other smartphone manufacturers. Most sales staff in Apple stores are drips and i always try to avoid ever having to speak to them because 99% of the time they're clueless. Just save your time and energy by booking a Genius bar appointment.