[Closed] Go directly to jail ?

No idea, go directly to casualty seems more likely trying to play with that 🙂

I did hurt my thumb trying to work the catch ... is this a human rights violation ?

Realistically, if you're using it to legitimately fix something (and not robbing someone!) it'd have to be a real w****r of an officer to arrest you, and I can't imagine the CPS would really want to waste time trying to prosecute you.

Ive got a Gerber Suspension the same as that and its ace. It lives in the car ready for whenever it may be needed.

Not too sure but read this the other day:

"Full time carer Rodney Knowles kept the knife in his glove compartment of his vehicle.
The 61-year-old, who walks with the aid of a stick, was stopped by police on suspicion of drink driving - he was below the legal limit - but officers found the knife in a pouch in the car's glove box.
Knowles, from Buckland, Newton Abbot, Devon, said:"It's a stupid law. Now I have a criminal record."
Prosecutor Philip Sewell said:"He told officers that he had the knife for caravanning. He is not working and had no malicious reason for carrying the blade."
Mr Jolyon Tuck, defending, said he uses the knife to cut up fruit on picnics with his wife.
He said:"He accepts it is in his car and the law is very clear. He admits possession of it and he had no good reason for having it."
Knowles was ordered to pay £40 costs and the knife was forfeited.
The retired maintenance engineer, who has no previous convictions, said:"It was in my glove box in a pouch, along with a torch, first aid kit and waterproofs."

but the adverts on telly keep going on about just "carrying a knife", implying that there has to be no intent to use it for criminal purposes...

If it has a locking blade then it is illegal. There is an exemption for small penknives or other knives that you have good reason to be carrying.

So if it is in your bike toolkit there should be no real issue unless a cop takes a real dislike to you and wants to do you for the technicality of having a locking blade.

However if its in your pocket down the pub on a friday night it could be a whole different scenario

Interesting - I'd not realised the locking blade thing made one illegal. Have at least one knife with a locking blade I sometimes carry in the car, which is nominally illegal.

this has been a topic on another forum[cars not bikes]and the following was posted
[i]This may be the Law re knives -

Criminal Justice Act 1988 (c. 33)
Main body
Part XI Miscellaneous
Articles with blades or points and offensive weapons

139. Offence of having article with blade or point in public place. ? (1) Subject to subsections (4) and (5) below, any person who has an article to which this section applies with him in a public place shall be guilty of an offence.
(2) Subject to subsection (3) below, this section applies to any article which has a blade or is sharply pointed except a folding pocketknife.
(3) This section applies to a folding pocketknife if the cutting edge of its blade exceeds 3 inches.
(4) It shall be a defence for a person charged with an offence under this section to prove that he had good reason or lawful authority for having the article with him in a public place.
(5) Without prejudice to the generality of subsection (4) above, it shall be a defence for a person charged with an offence under this section to prove that he had the article with him?
(a)
for use at work;
(b)
for religious reasons; or
(c)
as part of any national costume.
(6) A person guilty of an offence under subsection (1) above shall be liable-
[ F1(a)
on summary conviction, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding six months, or a fine not exceeding the statutory maximum, or both;
(b)
on conviction on indictment, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding two years, or a fine, or both.]
(7) In this section ?public place" includes any place to which at the material time the public have or are permitted access, whether on payment or otherwise.
(8) This section shall not have effect in relation to anything done before it comes into force. [/i]

Cool present. Simon of B has a great son for buying him that.

what tj said but I reckon amn annoyed copper - I know you rarely rub people up the wrong way but it just could happen- could do you anyway. IIRC no accpetable defenc eunless required for work and then there is still a storage/location issue

There's an opportunity for locking you up Al Capone style here though isn't there? Lots of people would gladly see you locked up for a while...and if a spurious pocket knife conviction is what's needed, that'll do.

Only a few weeks though 🙂

And what would they pull you over for in the first place... bimbling along with a vacant look? 🙂

Are you

A teenager who has difficulty doing up his trousers properly?
Black?
Brown?
Of indeterminate 'undesirable' appearance?
'Known' to police in your local area?
Someone with an existing criminal record?

If the answer is 'no' to all the above, then you're probably ok.

If the answer is 'yes', however, you're going [i]daahhyn[/i], my son!

whatever they want

Just don't use it to threaten a national Park Ranger and I reckon you'll be OK 😉

if the cutting edge of its blade exceeds 3 inches.

phew! that lets me off then 🙂

Cool present. Simon of B has a great son for buying him that.

he's great whether he remembers to get me owt or not :o) However, I am very pleased with it, as I saw someone using one on Saturday's ride and thought it looked very useful. I hope it doesn't rust as all the other pliers and cutters I've carried while riding have!

Just don't use it to threaten a national Park Ranger

is it possible to threaten a fictional being? I once had a letter from someone claiming to be a ranger, but it might have been a hoax. I've never seen one in 14 years' riding.

Doesn't matter on the size of the blade, as you can always get done for having a 'sharply pointed object' under a different bit of legislation. I've been threatened with a potato peeler before now! I always carry a leatherman when I'm going out on the bike, but I keep it in my camelback at all times - helps the 'good reason' side of things.

pointed stick anyone ?

Cool present. Simon of B has a great son for buying him that.

quite true. he [i]is[/i] about 4 months late though!

i'm not worried about carrying my leatherman when riding or walking in the hills. think of how many thousand leatherman/gerbers have been sold in the country.

Locking puts it into the verboten category, no matter how short the blade. The law is that if it's not immediately closeable, then it's not a folding penknife.

Could you file off the locking tang?

is it possible to threaten a fictional being? I once had a letter from someone claiming to be a ranger, but it might have been a hoax. I've never seen one in 14 years' riding.

They look like this apparently.......

[img] [/img]

Locking puts it into the verboten category, no matter how short the blade.

so the same would apply to a non-folding knife?

Could you file off the locking tang?

wouldn't that be dangerous? it might fold over and chop off my finger 🙁

Non-folding knives are forbidden too. Anything with a point is - you could be done for having a screwdriver or a chisel in some circumstances.

The key thing is a) the circumstances you have the item in and b) the attidude of the police when they find it. Someone in a good mood might tell you to get on your way, someone in a bad mood / needing to fill a quota might do you for it.

eeh, and when I was a 12-year old I used to carry a 6" sheath-knife when out walking. How times change

Goodbye Crocodile Dundee 🙁
Also Ray Mears

Junkyard; have you been drinking? I was putting up tents for the open as a student.We were in a takeaway straight after work one night and two coppers walked past,stopped, came in and lectured every member of the crew who had a leatherman,gerber etc.The basic thrust of their argument,apart from to show what a pair of arses they were, was that we were all carrying weapons,and could be lifted.Made no difference that we were in company fleeces etc.

I don't like the idea of people being stabbed, but I don't think criminalising innocent activities will improve the situation.

All this fuss over knives and stuff, but you could easily batter someone to death with a football boot, I certainly have.

It's just anti-violence gone psychotic, I tell you...

The key thing is a) the circumstances you have the item in and b) the attidude of the police when they find it.

Nail on the head!

I remember observing in court a man charged with burglary (a local smack head who could hardly keep his eyes open in court)! He was found in possession of a screwdriver (the offensive weapon). His defense argued that he legitimately had the item because he was on his way to his mothers to fix her front door.

The prosecution blew that argument out of the water with one sentence... He was arrested at 3:30 am! 😆

The feeling in court of "nice try sonny jim" was almost tangible and the wry smile on the judges face was a picture!

I was under the impression that a locking blade forfeited the <3" exception?

I often carry a 7" hunting knife when camping, that worries me a lot, but I'd never even question carrying the leatherman - I'd have to be seriously unlucky and get a seriously nasty copper, and the probability of that is quite small, too small to care.

I remember observing in court a man charged with burglary (a local smack head who could hardly keep his eyes open in court)! He was found in possession of a screwdriver (the offensive weapon). His defense argued that he legitimately had the item because he was on his way to his mothers to fix her front door.

Maybe his defence should have argued that he legitimately had the item because it was one of the tools of his trade (burglary). Or was he pleading not guilty to the burglary?

Either way, getting caught with a lock knife in a public place may mean you will have to explain yourself in court and knowing how much a lottery courts can be, is it worth the risk?

I no longer use my locking bladed Charge Leatherman at my allotment, which is a pain as it was a usefull multi-tool to have, sure I could argue I have a genuine reason for haveing one, but don't want the hassel tbh.

Surely Mountain bikers should be exempt if riding the moors.......what if one of them mythical Puma's/Leopards etc decide to make a meal of you? A leatherman might be your only defence 😯

There are some useful sticky threads over at britishblades or bushcraftuk, both of which I've just found are barred at work-damn!

In a nutshell, you need a good reason to carry anything other a sub 3" non-locking penknife (folding knife). However, that same sub 3" knife becomes illegal if you are thought to be carrying it for protection or just somewhere you shouldn't (like a school)

Being out in the wilds on your bike should be a good enough reason to carry a multitool that happens to have a locking blade or one over 3" long.

what about my pruning saw which lives in my camelbak for occasional emergency trail maintenance?

what about my extending wheel brace for my van? much better than your knife in a fight i woulda thought, got a nice big 17/19mm socket on one end and is about 50cm long, steel and has a nice baseball style handle.

yet prefectly legit.

stays with me if im sleeping in van/nervous.

what about my pruning saw

yes, I have one of those too, 8" locking razor sharp saw blade, just right for chopping up corpses - I imagine...

Barnes, it won't rust if you bring it in the house where it can dry out between rides.

I'm surprised they can still be sold if there's no legal way to get them home, surely it's incitement to commit a crime ?

Doesn't matter on the size of the blade, as you can always get done for having a 'sharply pointed object' under a different bit of legislation.

I was talking to a solicitor about this and he said you can theoretically be prosectuted for carrying a ball point pen under this legislation. Another case of good idea but executed with little or no common sense.

I remember observing in court a man charged with burglary (a local smack head who could hardly keep his eyes open in court)! He was found in possession of a screwdriver (the offensive weapon).

Either way, getting caught with a lock knife in a public place may mean you will have to explain yourself in court and knowing how much a lottery courts can be, is it worth the risk?

That's just paranoia though, in my humble, the number of people who must get legitimately "caught out" by this a year must be about what, 5 or 10. In 66 million. I'll take my chances.

The point is that there should not be laws that criminalise people who have no criminal intention.

the point is it's Gerber and is therefore blunt anyway

take it into a decent knife sharpener and get a proper edge put on it Simon, i have had a couple of those (and still use one almost daily) but the straight blade is pretty rubbish, the sawtooth blade would however cut the very fabric of time and space given half a chance

The point is that there should not be laws that criminalise people who have no criminal intention.

Trouble is, how do you determine who has 'criminal intent' or not?

It's all very well assuming that some crackhead with previous has criminal intent, and that a nice, gentle, respectable 57 year old internet botherer from Lancaster hasn't, but in the eyes of the Law, both are equally capable. Barnes could in fact be a latent psycho murderer.

Just say, for example, he was out somewhere, happily photographing bottoms, and some disgruntled STWer attacked him, or provoked Simon into stabbing them repeatedly in the eye and neck, killing them to death, by death.

Likewise, as crackhead with previous could quite legitimately be carrying a knife at 3.30 am, to take to his mum's house to peel some potatoes. The unusualness of the hour is irrelevant. Indeed, any previous convictions are equally irrelevant; each case must be tried on it's own merits. Were the crackhead able to provide a suitable defence, they would surlely be found not guilty of any crime. While Barnes goes [i]daaahyn[/i] for 20. And rightly so.

The Law is there to protect people from being the victims of crime, and to bring justice to those what commit crime.

You can't have 'one law for crackheads and another for simonfbarnes'. That's not on.

That's just paranoia though, in my humble, the number of people who must get legitimately "caught out" by this a year must be about what, 5 or 10. In 66 million. I'll take my chances.

Sold a new knife to a guy in his 60's who got stopped at an airport by the police (before all the new security measures) who had a victorinox in his backpacking rucksack with backpacking gear and they prosecuted. I know it's in an airport but he is going away camping and in his 60's what harm is he ever going to do? A few policeman on here if so be interesting to hear their opinion?

A few policeman on here if so be interesting to hear their opinion?

Irrelevant what police persons think. Their job is to arrest according to what the Law says, not judge a particular case. They can have their personal opinions, of course, but it's up to the CPS to decide to prosecute, and the courts to do the judging and sentencing bit.

Of course, current knife laws often seem stupid and pointless, but in such a litigation-happy society, everyone's got to cover their backs. The recent tightening up of Law regarding knife possession was a shortsighted knee-jerk reaction to media hysteria over stabbings. The draconian measures introduced have done bugger all to reduce nasty knife crime. Waste of money even introducing them.

It's a bit like Cannabis; someone with a bit of personal puff is hardly a master criminal, but the fact that Cannabis is a controlled substance criminalises possession. The Law is the Law. You can't pick and choose how or to whom to apply it; it has to be impartial. If the old boy cannot offer a suitable defence, then he goes [i]daaahyn[/i]. Simples.

It's not nice, but that's the way it goes, at least until the Law is reviewed and changed.

5 or 10. In 66 million

Sorry you saying 66 million people carry lock knives!

Its the law, stupid as it seems to make a safty feature illegal, its still againt the law to carry a lock knife in public with out a good reason.

Irrelevant what police persons think. Their job is to arrest according to what the Law says, not judge a particular case. They can have their personal opinions, of course, but it's up to the CPS to decide to prosecute, and the courts to do the judging and sentencing bit.

You are 100% correct in what you say but generally speaking if a policeman arrests you for a minor crime you will either get a caution or go to magistrates court and get prosecuted. It's all about targets and if they don't prosecute after an arrest it affects those targets.

My mother has twice been caught trying to get on planes with a 4" locknife in her handbag! Very lucky not to be prosecuted - she is a biologist and carries a knife in case she finds interesting things to cut a bit off.

Nowadays she only is allowed a swiss army knife by the rest of the family and is reminded not to leave it in her handbag.

I've got two cars.

I've also got empirical evidence that cars are more dangerous than knives.

I've got some alcohol downstairs. That's more dangerous than knives too.

Talkemada you really have a massive downer on authority figures don't you!? Police officers are encouraged to use discretion when dealing with people. Not all of them do it as well as they should I agree, but that's life unfortunately.

The law around points & blades or offensive weapons is getting a little mixed up here and does sound confusing. But it really isn't that bad. You can't really get a proper understanding of the law by reading it without case law as it all depends on the courts interpretation of the legislation.

The only bit you really need to worry about is the without good reason. If you have a multi-tool with you when you are riding, in your car, in the garden or whatever then you have a good reason to have it. If you are going to the pub and getting pissed you might struggle to explain it.

And Talkemada which new bit of knee jerk legislation are you talking about? The Criminal Justice Act is over 22 years old?

Burls72 you can only get a caution if it meets fairly strict criteria such as sufficient evidence, admitting the offence in question in interview, having no relevant previous convictions and if it's authorised by a senior officer. Most minor offences still require CPS charging authority to go to any court and this only happens if there is sufficient evidence to give a realistic prospect of conviction.

Sorry you saying 66 million people carry lock knives!

haha spotted the purposeful mistake eh... ok you got me. 🙂

No, but looking at the probability of being stopped and searched, then looking at the probability of picking a pain in the arse policeman AND not having a quick and obvious defence, I'd say the odds were pretty close to that anyway.

Eek! I regularly carry my Swiss Army knife, I have it with my other bike kit (pump, spare tyre, tyre levers, mini tool etc) when cycling and I take just it with me pretty much every where I go and have done for over 20 years. It comes in very handy very often.

Funny thing, I went to the cinema, took my shoulder bag (complete with SAK and a small torch, which I also carry regularly) - got searched. No reaction from the security man. I remarked on this to my friend - apparently they are searching for FOOD, it seems that because the cinema is such a rip off food-wise, people try to smuggle in their own.

So it's fine to take your knife to the pictures. Bloody hell - can I really be arrested for having my little knife with me?

Nonsense - Originally wrote "if your very lucky you get a caution" but edited it out.

You obviously have a far greater knowledge of the law than me but would you not agree that your more likely to be convicted in magistrates court than crown I think I read somewhere thats its around 80% magistrates and 50% crown. The main reason for this is the minor and less complicated cases are heard at magistrates court. The police would therefore have a greater understanding of the law involved so would be less likely to arrest as they know the probable outcome and know it's just not worth the wasted paperwork and target not met.

Karinofnine

a swiss army knife is not a lockknife nor is the blade over 3" so its the sort of knife you are allowed to have. so long as you don't wave it at anyone you will be fine

Good news TJ - no, I don't make a habit of waving it at people.

Talkemada you really have a massive downer on authority figures don't you!?

Yes, but I meant no disrespect to police here. Just making the point that it's the courts who decide on guilt, not a policeperson.

As for the legislation; I refer to recent amendments regarding locking blades. At least, maybe these are simply recommendations regarding such, rather than actual changes to legislation, but my point remains. Recent media hysteria has led to a tightening of Law regarding possession of knives. Previous to this, possession of such a knife would not necessarily be illegal.

I would go and have a root around for the relevant info, but CSI's on!

So, how does it work with kitchen knives then? I've got a knife I use for food prep which has a 5" blade, sharp as owt. When it breaks how do I get its replacement home from the shop?

Mail order?

It works fine, because you have a good reason for having it with you, so there's no problem. Relax!

Karinofnine - you would have a reasonable excuse!!! Honestly people it's not that difficult 😉

Talkemada I know you weren't having a dig at the police in that instance. I just think people often mistake media hysteria for reality, as evidenced by some of the comments in this post. The legislation hasn't changed at all, the only thing that might have changed are the sentencing recommendations and that is a matter entirely for the courts.

Burls72 I'm not entirely sure what stats you are talking about. As they are statistics I would be inherently wary of taking any notice of them whatsoever. All criminal cases are heard at the magistrates court in the first instance. It's just that if the sentencing options open to the Magistrates are insufficient it then get's heard at the trial stage at Crown court.

Conviction rates depend on a huge number of things and has very little to do with which particular court it's heard at. I would suggest that the most frequent cases heard at a Magistrates court relate to road traffic offences, most of which aren't criminal convictions and aren't exactly comparable. So in short ... no idea what you are on about. Sorry.

Ok, so it's the recommendations which have changed. But that has happened undoubtedly as a result of media and public pressure, and for the Home Office to be seen to be responding to the 'spiralling number of knife crimes'.

I still think Barnes should go [i]daaahyn[/i] though...

I have a Topeak Alien in my bag.. I've carried it on my person a fair bit. Put shelves up with it and stuff.

It has a locking blade.. Ooops!

It has a locking blade.. Ooops!

Officer! Another perp over here!

Book 'em, Danno...

this only happens if there is sufficient evidence to give a realistic prospect of conviction

In my police experience, the CPS only charge if there is a 110% chance of conviction. And I've given evidence in both Crown and Magistrates courts numerous times, and I'd suggest that if there is a lower conviction rate in the Crown, it's because of the jury system. Rightly or wrongly, the use of a jury brings a lot of unpredictability into the decision-making process. As well as defense barristers, who can pick holes in the tightest of cases. Giving evidence is something I've learnt to enjoy, but it took a while!

As for quotas, in the forces that still use them, most just use arrests as a mark of performance, not how the crime is then dealt with i.e. court, caution or no further action.

I've always carried a penknife of some description or other. Saved up for my first aged 10 - the age at which my parents judged me responsible enough to have one (I still managed to cut myself a fair few times, play knifey with my mates etc and finally respect how dangerous they can be!).

When all the media hype started kicking off a few years ago I got myself the most inoffensive, old mans' folding knife I could find. It's in my pocket now - a George Wostenholm from Sheffield. Looks lovely but utterly un-macho 🙂

I still have a few lock knives and sheath knives but sadly, they never leave the house - just not worth the risk IMO - you never know when you're going to meet the one in one hundred tosspot policeman like the one who arrested the pensioner mentioned on page one.

[i]You can't have 'one law for crackheads and another for simonfbarnes'. That's not on. [/i]

But what you can do is have a quick look at the stabbing statistics and make a quick determination about who should be able to carry knives from that. My guess is that most stabbings are carried out by young men under the age of 20, probably younger.

I doubt very many 50 year old men stab people so which should it be illegal for Simon to carry a knife?

Because if it's illegal for a teenager in Hackney to carry a knife, it must therefore also be illegal for a 57 year old man in Lancaster. The Law cannot be seen to be prejudiced or discriminatory in any way. I know it's bollocks, but that's the way it is. The Law has to apply to everyone equally. If Barnes has no good reason to be carrying a knife, then he goes [i]daaaahyn.[/i]

Think about anything else; nice respectable Middle Class bloke, and a scrote off a housing estate, both caught whilst over the limit (by exactly the same amount) in charge of a motor vehicle. You can't let the former off just because he's more 'respectable'. You have to apply the Law equally.

In my police experience, the CPS only charge if there is a [b]110% chance[/b] of conviction. And I've given evidence in both Crown and Magistrates courts numerous times, and I'd suggest that if there is a [b]lower conviction rate[/b] in the Crown, it's because of the jury system.

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