[Closed] Go back to school for computerist?

That question is a broad church. Being able to use Office is a world away from being a software developer which is a world away from being a pen tester which is a world away from being a network architect which is a world away from being a Photoshop expert. It's like asking that you want to do "something outdoors." What are you thinking of doing?

The security industry is screaming out for talent right now. if I had the skills and qualifications to back up my job title I could double my salary, but it's not a trade you can just learn and then do. Fully 50% of my working time right now is "learning things" and I got into computers in the early 80s.

Indeed. The range of skills is as wide as it is out there in the real world, so the first thing to do would be to define what area you'd like to go into.

And I'd echo what Cougar says, for many jobs it's a lifelong education and requires constantly keeping up to date with technology. You need to be prepared for a potentially long slog even just to get into the industry.

As a work at home computerist myself I consider myself quite lucky, it's not as common as you think, unless you're working freelance or running your own business, but that may well change post-covid.

Moving to something in computers won’t prevent layoffs.

Employers’ needs change and, as ever, some find it easier to ditch a chunk of workforce than reskill them. While at the same time they bemoan the fact that ‘there aren’t enough people skilled in X’. Though they omit ‘...and willing to work for what we want to pay’.

Without experience, wages are likely to be less than spectacular. Unsure what the going rate is now for fresh graduates with something like a 12-week course in SAS or Java is. I pick SAS as I did that for a while and the recruiters who pick up on it tend to be after various additional experience too. For example ‘principal programmer’ in pharmaceutical R&D £50,000-£60,000. This used to be a job requiring at least a 2:1 honours degree in a STEM subject and about 5 years pharma experience. And it’d be more people & project management than programming. Exciting though. And wages seem to have risen.

Gloom aside, if it’s ‘something in computers’ then you’ve got to determine what you like. And what you’re good at or have potential to be good at.

If you’re set on this course, you could look for online courses that interest you to see how you get on with them. Then it’s finding an ‘in’ to the workplace somehow.

We hired a couple of folks as software engineers making career transitions in their mid-late 30’s after a 12 week maker’s academy course. They’re both impressive. It’s a solid starter for someone switching to an engineering career.

Maker’s Academy

Edit:
Following up on the wages thing. It’ll vary a lot by language and sector. Competition for the best talent can be pretty intense. In London, you should be looking at +30k coming out of a bootcamp. The LinkedIn salary survey tool is a good quick resource.

LinkedIn

As above its a broad church, and doing computers doesn't mean you get to WFH. Many employers are still very conservative about this. I say this as a senior guy who has works away a lot internationally. They will trust you to work in America for three weeks but not 2 days from home!

On a more positive note what is your trade? If you are electrical or plumbing (full on heating engineer accustomed to control side of the work) and find the electrical side intuitive consider PLC programming. (Industrial control systems, machines etc). Again its a wide field but the level of people involves is very wide. I am a "academic guy" and do some harder stuff (harder as in more technical) but I know others that are electricians and have worked their way up and do more basic programming and commissioning. If you are happy to work away once you have experience you can make a good day rate as a commissioning engineer, fixing hings onsite and feeding back issues to the software guys. Its more piratical as you have to consider the machine as a whole so software, electrical, mechanical . In addition I know 50 + guys doing commissioning work than I ever did in a pure software company / situation.

edit by 50+ I mean 50+ years old.

One option to think about is working as a Business Analyst - in an IT world it's about defining business processes,translating into user requirements to inform an IT development. It requires a less direct technical expertise that a developer so may be easier to transition into. A lot of the BAs I work with CE from a real variety of backgrounds

Its more piratical as you have to consider the machine as a whole so software, electrical, mechanical

That sounds like a life for me.

Most of the high growth areas in IT require either a good academic background (science degree or PhD) or a lot of experience or both.

Do you have much of a hobbyist interest in computing? Or currently don't do much with IT but just think it offers a decent wage and the chance to WFH? If the former then what part interests you, programming, infrastructure etc? Look into those areas. If the latter then honestly I wouldn't bother.

Whilst some people pick up programming really quickly it's not always the case (I gave up on it after a couple of years...) and at best you'd be competing against 20 year-olds for junior roles. On the infrastructure side it's probably easier to pick up and understand but is still a very broad field and experience is key, you'd probably end up starting in service desk role not really learning much and surrounded by 17-22 year-olds (not likely WFH either once the current situation ends). You'd then be hoping a junior infrastructure role (e.g. desktop or server builds/support) opens up after a year or so that you can move into. Some of those roles allow some WFH but a lot won't.

Most of the high growth areas in IT require either a good academic background (science degree or PhD) or a lot of experience or both.

More than that, even most half decently paid jobs in IT require a degree in something (even a lot of entry level jobs now). And the reality of recruiting is even with a great CV, your CV will be binned at the first hurdle without a degree on it. I couldn't get the job I have if I were to apply for it today, you can possibly get around it through contacts and networking if that is a skill you have developed and practised. But for most of us who lose contacts with old colleagues as the years progress, it is becoming a serious problem if we want to move on to something new.

You don't need a degree to do 99% of the jobs in IT, but you do need it to compete with the other applicants.

Lots of good advice on here, I made the switch into IT when I was 30. Echo the sentiment about programming you can either programme or not...I cant 🙂
I would perhaps look at some courses on Udemy (they often have offers on them) and see if there's anything that appeals. You'll also see if you have the aptitude for programming.
All I would say is you might need to start in a helpdesk environment (ours are working remotely at the mo.) and progress.
As others have said you might be up against younger graduates but dont let that put you off. If your going into infrastructure side then powershell is pretty much required so have a look at that. Anything hardware related these pretty much involves travelling I.e. field engineer, systems commissioning and I know of a number who's mileage is astronomical.

Plenty of negativity here. Assuming you want to code, many of these bootcamp places have arrangements with exactly the kind of progressive employers that probably already offer the flexible working arrangements you seek. I can only speak for the London market, but it’s hugely biased in favour of the candidate. Once you get 1-2 years under your belt and some solid achievements on your CV any employer worth working for WGAF about a degree. I don’t.

Edit - help desk is known as hell desk for a reason. And it can be harder to breakout from there to proper “engineering” roles. Tread carefully

I know a guy who was a recruitment agent placing IT guys in contracts mainly.
He did a boot camp at Code Clan in Edinburgh about 12 months ago and is now at the BBC.
Give it 6 months and (economy permitting) he'll be one of the day rate contractors he wants to be.

https://codeclan.com/

A lot of the online training sites are giving courses away right now, for example Introduction to programming is free until the end of the month. That would be a low risk way of seeing how you get on with programming. Do a search as there are lots of others.

I nearly got a job as a developer around the age of 40. I was a self taught C/C++ programmer with HTML, CSS, PHP, and a fair amount of Linux knowledge. Spent years learning in my spare time while working in low paid factory work. No computing degree but art degree.

The company offered to put me through a computer science degree to get me up to speed with databases etc - something that had never interested me (and still doesn't). Informal interviews seemed to be going well until I got the feeling they would basically own me and my thoughts, I wouldn't be able to work on any project outside of work that would benefit from my employment with them or even the education they were offering to pay for*. They then got a little heavy handed emphasising how much commitment they needed (110% of course).

I ran!

* at the time I had lots of my own ideas & ambitions I wanted to work on.

I managed to start a career (programmer, as it was called back then) at 38, having never worked in an office in my life. No degree, never owned a computer, hadn't done any programming since high school (punchcards/FORTRAN) until I took an OU course in my late 30's

Getting my first (and second job) took a bit of planning, tenacity and luck, but it can be done, though living in London was a decent help - I took a couple of years of OU courses when they were cheap, did some market research and hit up what I thought might be approachable employers. Lucked into a job with a small consultancy, they paid me next to nothing, but it kicked things off.

Getting a first job will require a sympathetic hiring manager imo, but they do exist. Ageism is rife in some sectors of the industry.

And like tor5 says, avoid the helpdesk at all costs- for most it's a low paid road to nowhere.

tor5 +1

Give it 6 months and (economy permitting) he’ll be one of the day rate contractors he wants to be.

Maybe - but there are a lot of contractors currently floating around because as soon as covid kicked in the big projects gave them the heave ho (they shouldn't complain they've been telling me their rates are so high because they carry exactly that risk, whilst smugly knowing that they can walk out on Friday and be Wed have a new role line up). We've seen people offering to charge 30% less than they were asking in January - and they have plenty of real experience.

WFH is perfectly feasible in software and the current situation will no doubt have emphasised this, made people question why they pay rent and rates etc... but as a "newbie" there is a heck of a learning curve and to do that without someone sitting close by to ask and talk through problems IS harder. Not impossible but harder.

its also worth looking at apprenticeships. We take on a bunch (15?) of level 4 apprentices each year, it runs for 2 years and you get the equivalent of the 1st year of an IT degree at the end of it. The starting salary isn't super compelling (I think we pay £22k? - we pay ~£40k for university grads), but its focussed on continual learning - after 2 years the salary jumps up if you're good. We get a mix of kids coming in from a-levels and career swappers.

Plenty of negativity here. Assuming you want to code, many of these bootcamp places have arrangements with exactly the kind of progressive employers that probably already offer the flexible working arrangements you seek.

If you are savvy and/or possess natural talent, I think it is entirely possible to make a quick entry and a very successful career. Not guaranteed, but the opportunities are there, and if you are both of these things, I'd actively encourage it.

It's not something where just anyone can do a 12 week course and immediately dive into to a well-paid job though.

Ageism is rife in some sectors of the industry.

Very much so. I'm a similar age to the OP and often wonder what the future holds for me since I'm already older than almost everyone I've ever worked with.

Also worth considering what skills you've developed already that could be of use. I work with lots of very very technically capable people, more of them have MSc and PHDs than don't. But I help working practices and processes, coming from a technical background helps, but I coach, facilitate and work with the people not the products. So you may be able to be a manager of people in a technical place.

No reason you can't learn the skills. I'm late 40's, been in computer security for over 20 years, self-employed for 8 years, fully WFH bar the odd client visit. But part of what allows me to work like this is contacts built up over those 20+ years and the experience working in lots of large companies (banks etc). If I had to start from scratch now, I wouldn't/couldn't do it.

I would expect a lot more IT roles will be moved out to WFH after this pandemic though. I have clients who do not intend to go back to how they were when it's finished. So all sorts of roles could end up with WFH as an option. I'd start building some tech skills, looking at certification paths (I'd be looking at aws certs myself) and just keeping an eye on the job market.

Somewhat echoing what others have said - I'd look to move into something IT-ey related to your current job/skills, perhaps backed up by some further learning. Then if you want look to move into tech in other business areas.

Also worth considering what skills you’ve developed already that could be of use.

That's a good idea for maybe narrowing down what branch of the IT industry might be of interest and offer opportunities to you.

As pointed out above, there are a huge range of different jobs to consider. If you come from a trade background, think about the building industry; there are plasterers, electricians, plumbers, joiners, foremen, project managers, architects, inspectors, logistics managers, supply chain managers, planners, surveyors, etc, etc...

IT has the same range of many different roles that are required to run the industry, and writing code is only one part of that. The range of jobs is the reason why many people don't WFH all the time, because a lot of IT involves complex teams of different people that constantly have to talk to each other and solve problems collectively.

There are lots of opportunities for people without an IT background, if you can demonstrate that you can solve problems and get stuff done. I've worked as a developer and analyst for over 20 years, coming from an engineering background, and have worked with many people in that time who didn't study IT or start as IT specialists. The biggest problem is getting a starting opportunity. I have worked with some good developers who started through CodeClan, so something like that might be worth trying. Don't discount other routes as a way in. I have worked with people in one of the big retail banks who started in the call centre doing sales and customer support, and progressed through team leading to becoming fully fledged business/IT analysts, making good use of the business knowledge they picked up on the way.

Good luck!

It's a good shout on apprenticeships.

Back when I was a teenager, an apprenticeship was what the... less academic kids did. Go learn to lay some bricks. Modern apprenticeships are a world apart, there's a gamut of different subjects and options. Our apprentices work four days with us and one day in college, and come away with an NVQ3 / NVQ4 and ready to take their vendor exams (Cisco CCNA). It's minimum wage or not far above it, but compare that to a degree and tens of thousands of pounds worth of dept...

There are lots of opportunities for people without an IT background, if you can demonstrate that you can solve problems and get stuff done.

This. The talk of requiring things like degrees is either employer / role dependent or has changed since I was last involved in recruitment, but the right sort of brain is always valuable.

Back in the 90s I was interviewing for helpdesk positions. We had a candidate in who was a mechanic looking for a career change. I was asking technical questions and he was completely green, knew next to nothing about computers. So I changed tack and asked him what he'd do if a car wouldn't start. His eyes lit up and he was away, "well, I'd check to see if there's a spark, if there's a spark then it's probably a fuel problem so I'd look at the fuel line, if there isn't a spark then I'd look for a low tension voltage..." and basically did a perfect binary search on this hypothetical engine. I fought hard to take him on and my manager eventually relented and agreed, six months later he was one of the best techs we'd ever had.

Back when I was a teenager, an apprenticeship was what the… less academic kids did. Go learn to lay some bricks.

I should perhaps qualify, I'm not dissing this route either. A lad in the year below me at school took this route, back at school he was in one of the lower streams. I bumped into him a couple of years back after not seeing him for yonks. I asked what he was up to these days and he said "oh, I've just retired." He'd have been like 40 or not much older. Started as a brickie, ended up owning his own business employing others to do the donkey work. Not so daft after all, hey.

Thanks for the replies guys

I'm a mechanic by trade, my biggest skills are problem solving and getting 'stuff out of the door'
Everything I do either work or hobbies I seem to be a quick learner who gets to middle of the pack quite quick but never really pushed on to the top, other people seem to have a higher opinion of me than I do though lol

I understand that's there's lots of different jobs within computerist, my question of what should I do was meant as don't do this it's a dead end or a big growth area is this etc, then I could research that, doing a degree isn't really something I'm looking for but other courses certainly, I will look at some of the links, I keep seeing reports that coding is a skill in demand but not sure what is what

Thanks again, a lot of this is thinking aloud and may be just done as spare time type thing

Should add my personality type is 100% fixer of things

A lot of coding also involves breaking things too 😀

To be fair, that's basically my superpower too.

One of the things I hammer into my apprentices is that it's critical to have broad foundations. If you understand the basics then you can extrapolate from that when you hit something you've not seen before. Which will happen a lot as how good you are.

Like, I'm currently fixing (or trying to) a petrol strimmer. Never done anything like this before but I know petrol goes in, spark plug sparks, engine runs. If it doesn't then one of those two things is a problem and as above I can binary chop from there. As it turned out the old fuel had rotted the fuel lines and the diaphragm in the carb.

In the IT world I know "enough to get by" about Linux, networking, web dev, SQL, programming, SIP, a whole bunch of stuff. I'm far from an expert but these things crop up time and time again as secondary factors to primary issues and by having an understanding of how it all interconnects puts me ahead of the curve. Sometimes, ahead of the actual experts.

So, that's where I'd be starting, core IT skills. You're not going to be a l33t haxxor any time soon if you don't understand how computers (and networks) work. People diss Support but places like technical help desks have a vertical learning curve, much better yet is internal support if you can get it rather than supporting customers (not least because you can tell the antsy ones to **** off).

A lot of coding also involves breaking things too 😀

I have this argument with my boss. He says he enjoys breaking stuff, my stance is that it's already broken and we're just proving it.

We hired a couple of folks as software engineers making career transitions in their mid-late 30’s after a 12 week maker’s academy course. They’re both impressive. It’s a solid starter for someone switching to an engineering career

Positive experience of Maker's here too. Although the lack of experience is noticeable and a bit of guidance is needed.

got laid off for the 1st time in my life

I suspect you'd have been laid off at some point in an IT role.

reports that coding is a skill in deman

From politicians and journalists who don't know what they're talking about. Some types are in demand, some not, and there's a world of additional skills beyond the coding.

From politicians and journalists who don’t know what they’re talking about. Some types are in demand, some not, and there’s a world of additional skills beyond the coding.

In my head at least, coding and programming are different things. I can code a bit but I am a very long way from being a programmer.

Having some coding knowledge is a useful secondary skill in many other disciplines, even if it's just the ability to knock up a quick batch file or shell script.

If someone came to me wanting me to create 40 new user accounts, I'd rather spend two hours writing an automation script than one hour doing it longhand. Aside from the fact that they'll probably want another 40 next week it's just far more interesting.

@deserter a few of the MOOC providers have a variety of free access options and Datacamp have free access all week it seems https://www.datacamp.com/freeweek

While Datacamp seems focused on programming skills Coursera & future learn & other MOOC providers have a whole bunch of jobs-with-computers type content.

Folks have indicated this computerism isn't all programming and mathematical voodoo. I agree. Except for hardcore programming gigs most of folks' time is probably spent making PowerPoint slide decks or mangling data in hideous excel workbooks. Underestimated, but awesome MS Office skills would probably be the most time-saving and useful skills to have.

@cougar, not sure I'd draw a distinction. 'Coding' seems to be to 'programming' as 'data science' is to 'statistics'  cooler words, same old same old. I think the distinction I'd draw is between 'programmer' - what I used to be when I was paid to think and code and 'script kiddy' - what I am now when it's easier to adapt someone else's snippets to get something done.

I'm thinking maybe "bricklayer" to "builder." But as I said, that's merely my interpretation rather than anything official.

"Script kiddie" has a very different meaning from the one you seem to be implying...!

Fully 50% of my working time right now is “learning things” and I got into computers in the early 80s.

Yep,most days are a school day and the speed at which it changes is mental.

I’d say you learn to program and then learn to cope with never stopping to learn 🙂

TBH WFH is like being 20 again and not leaving your bedroom as you code away.

I do love programming the SwiftUI on IOS thou for native IOS mobile it’s just so pleasant/productive to work with.

unfortunately can’t use it on current project 🙁

(From a programmers perspective)

From politicians and journalists who don’t know what they’re talking about. Some types are in demand, some not, and there’s a world of additional skills beyond the coding.

What’s the expression a ‘wide church’.

Sneaky edit tbh I always thought broadchurch was a tv series.

“Script kiddie” has a very different meaning from the one you seem to be implying…!

Hacky McHack 🙂

The biggest issue I found is not being able to do things, it's convincing employers that you can do things or that you are able to figure things out.

I'm brilliant at figuring things out, but everyone says this, so employers want specific experience if they aren't recruiting grads. Which is frustrating.

employers want specific experience if they aren’t recruiting grads. Which is frustrating.

IME, if you have qualifications they want experience, if you have experience they want qualifications, and if you have both you're overqualified.