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OK, so I'm having a hard time convincing the likes of epicyclo that Climate change is happening, largely because the discussion turns into an endless discussion about whether scientists can be trusted or whether computer models really work.
There also seems to be a view that until climate change is made "simple" for people to understand that it won't be taken seriously.
So, I found this presentation that actually lets you see some of the physical evidence regarding retreating glaciers for yourselves.
[url= http://www.ted.com/talks/james_balog_time_lapse_proof_of_extreme_ice_loss.html ]Extreme Ice Survey[/url]
I got bored after 5 seconds, what happened in the other 20 minutes? 🙂
Your children died 🙁
I don't have any, which is doing far more for saving the planet than the odd light bulb 🙂
1. There is a big difference between climate change and global warming
2. Only lunatics don't think the climate is changing
3. The debate is about a) why, b) will places get hotter or colder and c) how much will in change?
4. Ice breaks off ice sheets all the time
5. 70% of TED presentations are too smug and earnest to watch
OK, my children died. Would you like to make a joke about that?
CaptJon,
Have you watched the presentation?
Does this mean I wont have to drive as far to the coast?
That will reduce my carbon footprint 😉
thanks for posting that man really enjoyed that.
.4 captjon tired one chap.
i have kids i dont stress to much about it.if they are going to cop it because of this in the next 30 years then its going to happen. no point spending the rest of our lives together crying about it.
Lasted four minutes.
And I'm already a believer!
is it in a sentence though 😉
OK, my children died. Would you like to make a joke about that?
fairly typical bit of scaremongering melodrama there - well done
If you think all the children are going to die due to this it seems an odd choice to have them.....
whats this choice thing you speak of? 🙂
Ironically if you didn't have children it wouldn't happen.
[i]OK, my children died. Would you like to make a joke about that? [/i]
No way, you destroying the planet isn't a laughing matter.
Yeah, poor tack for your argument there rightplacerighttime. while I absolutely agree about "climate change" (not "warming" - deemed too confusing for the simple minded who can't understand that it'll lead to some places getting colder), hysterical comments about killing your children only make it easy to sideline you as hysterical and evangelist.
It's the same with capitalisation protests, critical mass and so on - while they are typically predominantly populated by crusties or people regarded by the majority as "different from them", it's too easy to dismiss them. The only way to get the message across is in ways that keep you firmly in line with the masses - eg "one of us"
So most of the landbound ice is melting - big deal. It melting will dilute the salinity of the oceans, slow the gulf stream and the balance will be restored.
Nobody is debating that the climate is changing - what people are debating is what's causing it. You being such an expert you should know that.
tucs hat under arm and claps enthusiastically at clubber.
yes goan but if that happens inners will have to shut.
ithankyouverymuch 😉
nonk - no great loss there.
Max Planck: "a new scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents and making them see the light, but rather because its opponents eventually die, and a new generation grows up that is familiar with it."
I thought we were still coming out of the Ice Age?
rightplacerighttime, the hysterics don't help matters!
bruneep, so?
big deal. It melting will dilute the salinity of the oceans, slow the gulf stream and the balance will be restored.
go on break the habit of these threads and post up a reputable reference 🙄
You know what happens here when the gulf stream , which is the North atlantic drift when it reaches us , Stops arriving.
It will hardly balance out or current temperature will it.
It reduces temperature globally- you realise the melted water is cold dont you?
Why would the temperature regulation of the Ocean converyor system changing or stopping not affect climate? - Can you reference that one from anywhere? Are you claiming it would balance global warming - the thing you dont think is happening now? At least try and stay consistent in your denial. Again can you reference that for me?
The gulf stream drift periodically turns on and off.
When it next turns off (and it will stay off for millenia) we will have the climate of Alaska, bearing in mind that New York is on the same latitude as Portugal.
Clubber,
I wasn't being hysterical. I was just responding in a way that I thought was proportional to Ian's flippant remark.
And with regard to the "simple" thing, if you'd read a couple of the other climate change threads recently you'd have seen that epicyclo had been asking for just that - "simple" evidence that would demonstrate climate change without the waffle and scientific argument.
Also, if people like me don't make a noise about it, just when do you think the masses will be won over to the idea that climate change is important?
Goan said
So most of the landbound ice is melting - big deal. It melting will dilute the salinity of the oceans, slow the gulf stream and the balance will be restored.
The "big deal" is that it will also put most coastal towns, regions like East Anglia and countries like Bangladesh under water.
And quite what will happen if the gulf stream stops isn't something I want to find out.
News Flash - Earth heats up and cools down, the same as it has been doing for the last few million years or so. Things change, species become extinct. World keeps turning, habitants keep evolving.
There's a lot of people getting rich off all this bollocks. You can't change nature
Clubber,
Did you actually watch the presentation BTW?
fwokinfwok,
Did you watch it?
Unfortunately having children in a western economy is about the most catastrophic thing you can do on the list of human factors for climate change. Making a noise about it is pretty pointless once you've made that decision.
Jeeeeeeeeesus
So, some parts of the world will become uninhabitable while others become habitable. If we can forecast that now, where's all the contingency planning for relocation of people, control of population growth, development of farming techniques, sustainability of the future population etc. Or is that not such a politically good thing to do as to get all our heads of state to make some wholesome sounding agreement that may or may not actually make a difference to the rate of change of climate.
You can't change nature
What is polution and greenhouse gases if not changing nature?
No one s claiming we will kill all life in the planet yes an new equilbrium willbe established bu there will be huge consequences for this.
Everyone knows the climate fluctuates over time as wel...what you need to do is explain why the actions of humans has no effect on this natural proces particualirly the [geologically /climactically speaking] fast release of all the stored carbon via the burning of fossil fuels and associated polution.
We can and we are changing nature that us the point.
rightplacerighttime - Member
Clubber,Did you actually watch the presentation BTW?
No I didn't - can't access it here. Whether I did or didn't is irrelevant to my point though.
Also, if people like me don't make a noise about it, just when do you think the masses will be won over to the idea that climate change is important?
This is where 'people like you' (your words) go wrong. You think that by protesting, shouting about it from the rooftops, etc, people will unquestionably be persuaded. Now, they may do eventually but a much quicker and more effective way to get the message across is in a much more subtle way that doesn't allow you to be easily marginalised as a weirdo (just look how critical mass is viewed by most because of the type of people that they see on it. If all the riders were viewed as being 'normal' you can guarantee that the message would come across better), especially as what you're suggesting is going to make their lives harder (at least in perception) - drive less, use your heating less, etc.
I'm on the same side of the debate as you but would rather that it's marketed (which is what you have to do in the modern world irrespective of the truth of it) effectively rather than just passionately 😉
Mister Crud:
You're thinking of Heinrich events - it's not a periodic switching on and off, it's a reaction to massive and rapid loss of a northern hemisphere ice sheet such as the Laurentide. Greenland is extremely unlikely to go that way so don't hold your breath.
rightplacerighttime,
Unfortunately you can't convince a denier. It's religion, no point trying. What has evidence got to do with it, when there are clearly bigger things at work that we don't understand?
Sooner or later overconsumption needs to become socially unacceptable. The best way to affect things and to make your own abstention the norm, is by going public about what YOU think. There is little point rubbing people up telling them what THEY should think, it doesn't work that way.
So (a plug just for example), [b]I[/b] think the Greenpeace Airplot is brilliant and I'm signed up to it. [b]I[/b] was also so impressed by those folks on the Houses of Parliament roof the other day I decided to give them £10 a month, - I see it as an investment towards my family's future with one of the biggest paybacks I'm likely to get. [b]I[/b] also thought this was a rather less boring video: [url] http://greenpeace-uk.thetarsandsblow.org/ [/url], but Deniers shouldn't watch that, it's grist for the mill.
*builds ark*
Ahem...
Unfortunately you can't convince a climate change evangelist. It's religion, no point trying. What has evidence got to do with it, when there are clearly bigger things at work that we don't understand?
The problem here, as Clubber points out, is that we've reached a point where there is an almost Messianic zeal about the climate change cause. To say anything against it is an act of the utmost herecy and you shall be burned alive! (In a low carbon emission incinerator, natch). Show the slightest sceptism about the "science" behind the greenwashing and you're as bad as a Holocaust denier.
Yes, the climate is changing. It always does.
I've ceased worrying about it, nothing meaningful will be done until hundreds of thousands are dead and millions disposessed. By then we will have to use our ingenuity and what resourses we have left to survive, in some way, the time is past for averting the disaster via technology.
"almost Messianic zeal ". Problem is that if all that happens is a few polite reminders, (perhaps like before like the impending bank crash), then who would take any notice? We do need Mirror style headlines to crack the proletariat.
Naturally this works for both sides as we've seen recently in the Telegraph.
CFH, the problem is that delay in reducing emissions means that the consequences of climate change will become much more severe. Despite the bollox written on these threads, the science is reasonably well established and none of the outcomes look pretty. The majority of claims against the science are founded on pretty poor and usually repudiated arguments. The wait and see approach is not acceptable IMHO!
Yes, the climate always has changed and will continue to. However, a changing climate usually mean major disruption for society (and nature) as we see whenever we get any snow or heatwaves in the UK. There's no need to give the changing climate the extra push that we are!
I find it utterly depressing that there are still climate change deniers (or, more accurately, climate change CAUSE deniers) and 'so-whatters' amongst the cycling community.
If WE can't get it, what hope have we, as a society, of convincing those significantly less enlightened to alter their behaviour?
Rightplacerighttime: thanks for posting!
anotherdeadhero - Member
I've ceased worrying about it, nothing meaningful will be done until hundreds of thousands are dead and millions disposessed. By then we will have to use our ingenuity and what resourses we have left to survive, in some way, the time is past for averting the disaster via technology
Unfortunately this is exactly what I believe will happen. History shows that Humans are very short-term/selfish in their thinking. If we can't see an issue affecting us right now, we won't do anything about it. I reckon that the best we can do is mitigate it now and that will be done by subtle persuasion, not evangelising.
almost Messianic zeal
Whilst using eloquent words about the zeal perhaps you could throw in some facts to evidence your argument that we are wrong?
Again you need to
[b]explain why the actions of humans has no effect on this natural process particularly the [geologically /climactically speaking] fast release of all the stored carbon via the burning of fossil fuels and associated pollution.[/b]
OMFG i just watched the video. Stuff like that represent what is wrong with the debate about climate change - pseudo science, generalisations and emotive claims rather than discussion about the complexity of the issues.
*builds ark*
Exactly! We've got all the climate change bandwagon telling us that it's gonna get real bad unless we do something (in which case it's still gonna get quite bad) so where's the preparation for doing something about it?
Eg - the Maldives. Lovely place, but it's gonna go underwater. Maybe not all of it, but probably some of it. The government have an underwater cabinet meeting to draw attention to their plight unless all the world leaders come together and immediately reduce their emissions by a zillion percent or whatever. Are they really pinning the survival of their nation on that happening? Isn't somebody somewhere thinking 'OK we've got a population of eleventy thousand with this general skills and socio economic profile, what can we do with them?'.
CaptJon,
Are you saying that you think the video is what's wrong with the debate or shows what's wrong with the debate?
The video is an appalling attempt to convince people of what is happening. The politics of presenting an issue in that are incredible.
thepurist, the Maldives are stuck between a rock and a hard place.
All that evil nasty global tourism may mean that their islands are underwater soon
All that lovely global tourism is just about the only reason for their economic existence
Tough one.
In what way is it appalling?
It is time lapse photography of some of the world's major glaciers. The project is half way through. So far the glaciers have retreated at an increasing rate. If they spend the next half of the project advancing that will be captured on film too.
CaptianFlashHeart said
All that lovely global tourism is just about the only reason for their economic existence
Are you suggesting that the Maldives and the people who live there didn't exist before tourism?
Cap'n - that was just an example. We seem to be so focussed on (apparently) futile attempts to stop a possible cause of the issue that we're not thinking of how to deal with the issue itself. More like King Canute's approach rather than Noah's.
rightplacerighttime - Member
In what way is it appalling?It is time lapse photography of some of the world's major glaciers. The project is half way through. So far the glaciers have retreated at an increasing rate. If they spend the next half of the project advancing that will be captured on film too.
The project isn't a scientific investigation capturing/measuring glacier retreat. It is a project to help publics (which he greatly patronises at the end btw) understand scientific findings about glacier retreat. That you seem to have been confused about that (if i've understood your post correctly) demonstrates what is wrong with the presentation.
Who knows what is causing the climate change?
Probably a combination of many things, some man influenced, some not
Can we do anything to change it though? - I personally doubt we can, it'd be like sweeping up after a volcano with a dustpan & brush
RE: children dying - we all die one day, why worry about it so much? (this doesn't mean that I don't believe in climate change, just that there are other ways to think about it - does it matter if the human race no longer exists?)
cycling community.
If it existed I'd want it banned. Luckily it doesn't.
Yes, we all die one day.
Put your money where your mouth is and try crossing the road with your eyes closed at least once a day 😉
CapnJon said
he project isn't a scientific investigation capturing/measuring glacier retreat. It is a project to help publics (which he greatly patronises at the end btw) understand scientific findings about glacier retreat. That you seem to have been confused about that (if i've understood your post correctly) demonstrates what is wrong with the presentation.
Why don't you go and actually read my opening post. It tells you why I posted the link to the presentation.
BTW, just in case I've made a mistake, and maybe misinterpreted the data relating to the glaciers shown, you know the ones that you can actually see being filmed over the course of the last few years, could you tell me whether they are advancing or retreating?
RE: children dying - we all die one day, why worry about it so much?
Are you trolling? Because if you are it's in poor taste. If you're not then I think you've got something sadly lacking in your life.
Why don't you go and actually read my opening post. It tells you why I posted the link to the presentation.BTW, just in case I've made a mistake, and maybe misinterpreted the data relating to the glaciers shown, you know the ones that you can actually see being filmed over the course of the last few years, could you tell me whether they are advancing or retreating?
Will do. Got to go and teach now - will respond later.
Are you trolling? Because if you are it's in poor taste. If you're not then I think you've got something sadly lacking in your life.
Won't somebody think of the children!?
They are the future!
They are the future!
But the future is bad. Therefore children are bad. Ban children!!
Not if you teach them well and let them show the way...
Show them all the beauty they possess inside...
rightplacerighttime....they are melting you are right its all our fault ,and yours, now best switch of your pc and only use it when you absolutely have to as that is also not helping matters, also i suggest your children use only wind generated power for their entertainment devices and never take them anywhere unless you walk, all you need to do is explain what will happen to them, im sure they will have a long and happy life... 🙄
Could children be converted into bio-fuel? Solves two problem at once.
The funny thing is, I keep posting about this stuff on here because I kind of expect people with a love of the outdoors to be more concerned about environmental matters than the inhbitants of some other forums I visit.
Heaven help us.
But if any of you have just joined in and didn't see the original post, now lost in a sea of drivel, it's about a photographic study of glacier retreat.
[url= http://www.ted.com/talks/james_balog_time_lapse_proof_of_extreme_ice_loss.html ]Extreme Ice Survey[/url]
Nags Nogs ... What exactly is your point?
I am concerned about the outdoors i love everything about it, i adore Mountains with a passion, i even sometimes fill up with emotion just looking at them, are we not to be allowed to go there anymore because going to enjoy them is killing our world.....
In the grand scheme of the universe we and the earth as a planet are so irrelevant its untrue, go crush a grain of sand and see if it makes any difference to the whole of the earth, such is the impact the end of earth will have on the universe...
The funny thing is, I keep posting about this stuff on here because I kind of expect people with a love of the outdoors to be more concerned about environmental matters than the inhbitants of some other forums I visit.
Your hysterical drivel isn't going to convert anyone into a tree hugger.
I can't imagine why you'd think mountain bikers would be greener than average. All that aluminium, magnesium and titanium is far from green. I burnt enough diesel to feed a family of 3 for a year at the weekend, just to go play on a bicycle.
But with just the one kid I'm greener than you by the sounds of things.
I kind of expect people with a love of the outdoors to be more concerned about environmental matters than the inhbitants of some other forums I visit.
stop visiting them then you are wasting resources.....
5thElephant,
Being "green" isn't a competition. We're all in the sh1t together whether any of us like it or not: you, me and all our kids.
I'll keep doing as much as I can to get "us" out of it, including coming on here to tell people about what I think is important information - if you think its drivel, don't listen, fine - quite why you have to adopt the macho posturing though I don't know.
I'll keep doing as much as I can to get "us" out of it
Good man. In that case I'm going to fit in an extra biking trip to Wales. Thanks for taking one for the team.
anotherdeadhero - MemberI've ceased worrying about it, nothing meaningful will be done until hundreds of thousands are dead and millions disposessed. By then we will have to use our ingenuity and what resourses we have left to survive, in some way, the time is past for averting the disaster via technology.
+1 for that.
Only when it starts to have a significant impact will something be done about it.
"children dying - we all die one day, why worry about it so much"
You don't care about the needless suffering and death of others?
You're not a moral person then?
[I don't believe that 🙂 ]
Theory of human influence on climate change is very inconvenient for us who are responsible for it. The short-term solution is to ignore and deny it.
I am voting for Gordon at the next election, he will sort it all out for us, happy days. What could possible go wrong?
😉