[Closed] Global Warming - really, aye?

Vested interests...

Pulls up chair.

Changes mind, based on previous global warming threads.

This is why the preferred term is now climate change and not global warming.

wan - Have you a link to the information about sea ice levels?

By the way I am a flat earther and do not believe that the current climate change is caused by man. The climate is always changing.

Not saying pollution is a good thing though!

So what is causing the current warming then?

gobuchul - no just what is provided in the BBC link.

a_a - how the hell would I know? I'm a physio.

So what is causing the current warming then?

Islamic fundamentalists.

So what is causing the current warming then?

Or a lack of pirates.

Islamic fundamentalists.

Muslamic rayguns surely?

My qurstion was for gobuchel

Definitely pirates:

[img] [/img]

Extent of sea ice is quite different from volume of ice. The local extent is determined by many local and global factors, and more ice cold melt water in the sea can increase the extent... Don't believe every headline without looking at the detail.

[img] [/img]

Islamic fundamentalists.

By the way I am a flat earther.....

That's the spirit sonny - say it with pride!

Not enough people are prepared to say openly that they reject 'the world is round' hypothesis.

Oooh, am I a flat earther then?

As I understand it, climate has always varied, different factors have affected this at various times in the planets history.

In my inexpert opinion, man's pollution is almost certainly a contributory cause to the current situation, but it [i]may[/i] not be the only cause, and the solution to "correcting" it [i]may[/i] not be down to anything we can do, though that shouldn't stop us making proper efforts to try, not pointless, knee jerk useless political token gestures.

As a species, we may be doomed, or we may adapt.

I apologise if my open-minded, inexpert opinion offends anyone on either side of this argument as the thread develops.

Edit - can I just say I believe that the Earth is probably round, though I'm not ruling out the possibility that it is just a clever bit of camera work ina huge sound stage in the middle of the desert.

[url= http://www.esrl.noaa.gov/gmd/ccgg/trends/history.html ]CO2 at Mauna Loa [/url]

[quote=Edukator ]CO2 at Mauna Loa for my lifetime
You are 800,000 years old?

In my inexpert opinion, man's pollution is almost certainly a contributory cause to the current situation, but it may not be the only cause, and the solution to "correcting" it may not be down to anything we can do, though that shouldn't stop us making proper efforts to try, not pointless, knee jerk useless political token gestures.

Yeah that's the general census of Climate Change.

Trolls do live a long time, mind.....

The BBC video explains exactly why Antarctic sea ice is increasing in a warming world, namely:

* stronger winds creating more areas of open ocean to form ice in
* higher fresh water influx from increased melting of the Antarctic [land] ice sheet, creating greater stratification in the Southern Ocean, therefore less vertical transfer of heat from the deep ocean (i.e. the top layer of the Southern Ocean is getting colder and fresher, therefore easier to freeze)

You can read more, if you're interested, here: http://www.skepticalscience.com/antarctica-gaining-ice-intermediate.htm

I was originally going to post a graph that started in 1960 but ended up posting the video one, hence the edit, Scotroutes. Here you go:

[img] [/img]

[img] [/img]

Naughty, George.

In my inexpert opinion, man's pollution is almost certainly a contributory cause to the current situation, but it may not be the only cause, and the solution to "correcting" it may not be down to anything we can do, though that shouldn't stop us making proper efforts to try, not pointless, knee jerk useless political token gestures.

This is the problem with denying climate change, without any supporting science (I'm looking at you Lord Lawson) it's all hot air. And contributes to the problem.

you got to love the top rated comments in the wail on stuff like this (nasa reporting the hottest 6 months on record for example)

More global warming propaganda.

NASA should stick to space, not science fiction.

"Warmest SIX months". Man, they are really grasping for a hot headline in their every more pathetic effort to keep people believing in GoreBull warming. We've had 18 years without any warming -- CAGW is a myth -- get over it.

you're in trouble if people stop believing the experts/science/data

Soon they will have to back feed all them big daft fans, that ought to help cool things a bit 😀

"extent of sea ice" isn't a very useful gauge. Imagine you've got an icecube in a glass- take it out, crush it, put it back in and you have a greater extent of gin and tonic ice, but no more ice. If you take ice out of the freezer and put it in the drink, you have a greater extent of sea ice but again, no more ice because there's less in the freezer. Which is a dead clever metaphor for land ice going into the sea. But it's something deniers focus on because it sounds compelling on paper.

As I understand it, climate has always varied

Yes, lots of times, but never this quickly; never with this many people at risk; and we've never been in a position to do anything about it.

Re the OP, scientists also know about this, but they spent their lives studying it and it is incorporated into their body of knowledge. Do you honestly think you are cleverer than climate scientists? Or do you think that they are simply putting themselves in denial of facts so well known as to be on the BBC website? Think about what you are saying.

I've read several times about the possibility of more ice in Antarctica due to warmer air and.more weather bringing more snow. Antarctica could warm dramatically from -80 to -20 and it'd still snow and accumulate ice.

[url=

science Climate change video [/url]

you're in trouble if people stop believing the experts/science/data

You're in even more trouble if the data stops supporting the experts/science

You're in even more trouble if the data stops supporting the experts/science

Good job that's not happening then!

Certainly is with the instrumental surface temperature record.

Think it depends on which data and scientists you want to be correct

In the meantime, anagallis' cartoon up there is horribly accurate.

Link to the data then, and why that stops supporting the hypothesis that increased atmospheric CO2 is influencing global climate.

ninfan - Member

Certainly is with the instrumental surface temperature record.

But not at all with sea temperature. It's called global warming, not surface warming.

gosh it's a good job we've got you to tell us what's up rather than scientists who know a thing or two!

Oh look, the surface record has stopped showing this horrific and unprecedented warming that proves our theory.. but dont worry, we've come up with an entirely new measurement that [b]does[/b] show it, and can't be verified against any historical records... With no explanation of why it's changed from one to the other.

Hurrah, research grants all round!

Meanwhile, in other news, the world fails to see the wood for the trees 🙄

[b]ninfan[/b], I asked for the data and instead you've given me a conspiracy theory. You should post your bold ideas (without evidence) over [url= http://www.wattsupwiththat.com ]here[/url], or [url= http://joannenova.com.au/ ]here[/url], or [url= http://bishophill.squarespace.com/ ]here[/url], or [url= http://climateaudit.org/ ]here[/url].

Good luck.

sure, as soon as you hand me a set of non homogenised data and a three hundred million quid grant.

Which bit of what I've said are you denying?

[img] [/img]

Well, that was easy.

Hmm. Good one this. Maybe someone should get really into the science and study all the data in detail and tell us what's really going on.

Oh wait, they did...

PS ninfan you haven't won, you've lost.

Maybe someone should get really into the science and study all the data in detail and tell us what's really going on.

Oh wait, they did

And declared it was a travesty that they could not account for the lack of warming...

I personally can't see why people seem to need hard evidence of Global Warming etc to know that a massive CO2 release is not really a good idea?

Any time you change the natural balance, things are likely to change.

There is no natural mechanism that releases such quantities of CO2 over such a short time as mans consumption of hydrocarbon fuels. That's got to be a bad thing in the long term.

I don't need to see graphs showing 2degcC warming or what ever to know that things will change if we continue to burn fossil fuels at such an unnatural rate.

Where is the problem?

we just need to print more money then we can fix anything.

I personally can't see why people seem to need hard evidence of Global Warming etc to know that a massive CO2 release is not really a good idea?

Not difficult really. The hydrocarbon industry creates huge profits and makes some people extremely rich. These vested interests obviously want to downplay and challenge the allegation that their industries are responsible for anthropic climate change and its devastating consequences.

For further obvious reasons these rich and powerful people find allies among right-wing politicians, indeed many of them are right-wing politicians.

They have enough leverage through power, wealth, and influence, to very effectively mount campaigns through the media to challenge and mislead the gullible. The usual stuff.......don't trust governments, all politicians are evil self-serving individuals, it's a conspiracy to tax you more of your hard-earned money, they want you to stop driving your cars, it's all just a big con.

Some people will fall for that crap, sufficiently they hope to delay any meaningful curb on carbon emissions.

wanmankylung - Member
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-29822830

The climate is getting warmer and Arctic sea ice is melting at an alarming rate.
But in Antarctica sea ice levels are actually increasing, and this year reached their greatest extent since records began.

More sea is is a symptom of warming. More ice melts from the land means less salt water at the sea surface surrounding antartica, meaning it freezes quicker. Also add in wind direction and a few other factors I'm not sure of and expanding sea ice is interesting.

I'd have a guess that the volume of land ice on antartica is the real gauge.

Think it depends on which data and scientists you want to be correct

Yeah, it depends on whether you want to believe 97% of them or 3% of them.

Ninety-seven percent of climate scientists agree that climate-warming trends over the past century are very likely due to human activities,1and most of the leading scientific organizations worldwide have issued public statements endorsing this position. The following is a partial list of these organizations, along with links to their published statements and a selection of related resources.

https://climate.nasa.gov/scientific-consensus/

scientific consensus

Like continental drift?

http://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/when-continental-drift-was-considered-pseudoscience-90353214/?no-ist

As a scientist, I do have one comment to add:

Anthropogenically mediated climatic change is often dismissed as 'just a theory' by deniers*. Well, so's gravity, in which case may I kindly suggest you take your incredibly unhelpful and definitely undereducated views on this very complex topic with you and float off. Ta.

*And I'm being deliberate in my terminology here. A climate science sceptic is someone who takes an educated view point and has evaluated a large amount of information on the topic themselves, and has come up with a semi-justifiable defence for their scepticism. That makes most of the negative commentators on this topic, including those posting on this thread, as simply being layperson deniers.

For some, it won't be true until Simon Cowell says it is.

A climate science sceptic is someone who takes an educated view point and has evaluated a large amount of information on the topic themselves, and has come up with a semi-justifiable defence for their scepticism. That makes most of the negative commentators on this topic, including those posting on this thread, as simply being layperson deniers.

Most of them being retarded right wingers.

And declared it was a travesty that they could not account for the lack of warming...

Bingo!

Now I'll preface this by pointing out that I agree with the "scientific consensus" that man has a large influence on the observed warming (though I'm still kind of uncomfortable with the was the "consensus" is touted as some kind of evidence in itself). I've also come to realise that I'm actually a bit of a hippy in my attitudes towards transport and other energy use and think we could be doing a lot more to decrease our energy usage.

However I have a bit of a problem with this cartoon:

[quote=anagallis_arvensis ][img] [/img]
br />

The implication being that anything done in the name of preventing climate change is a good thing, when in reality that's far from being the case.

I think you might have missed both the humour and the point behind the punch line.

That's the problem with extrapolations.

So some simple facts and ideas.
Carbon based fuels are finite and will run out at the rate we are using them - fact.
Alternative energy sources exist - fact.

Would it be a good or a bad thing to be the ones who don't need oil when the price spikes so high it causes more world issues.
For all the things you can make with oil burning it is one of the stupidest ideas going.

Nothing will ever be done. The Amazon is being chopped down at the fastest rate ever, countless coal fired power stations being built etc etc.

Humans are greed driven. The only thing that bothers me is all the other species that get taken down with us.

Most of them being retarded right wingers.

That as well, but I was (uncharacteristically) trying to remain polite 😉

Everyone is entitled to their opinions, including their opinions on climate change.

What people are not entitled to is their own facts, or to pass off their opinions as fact.

I'd have a guess that the volume of land ice on antartica is the real gauge.

Or sea levels. Are they rising? Should be easy to measure?

These discussions always remind me of tobacco companies telling people cigarettes weren't bad for you

Or that there was a threshold below which lead consumption was safe to justify lead in petrol. Or that there's a threshold below which nuclear radiation is safe to justify releasing nuclear waste into the environment... .

Or that there was a threshold below which lead consumption was safe to justify lead in petrol.

Correct, there isn't, because there is no measurable background of volatilised lead, apart from perhaps during volcanic eruptions

Or that there's a threshold below which nuclear radiation is safe to justify releasing nuclear waste into the environment... .

Not so correct, there may be: as there is quite measurable background radiation that is not man-made, there genuinely is no consensus on whether risk vs dose continues linearly to zero, or tails off somewhere around normal background levels...

But, lets not get too distracted, eh 😉

"As often happens when confronted with difficult new ideas, the establishment joined ranks and tore holes in his theories, mocked his evidence and maligned his character"
Thanks for the link ninfan the above quote from your link entirely sums up the attitude of politicians the oil industry and their "climate sceptical " stooges to the scientists in the climate change debate. Have you ever wondered why when yhere are billions of dollars being pumped into denial of man made climate change not one scientist with a relevent qualufication not even my brother an oil industry geologist disputes it.

there may be

Not quite so adamant now, Zokes, you've made my day. Of course there is no consensus, there rarely if ever is. This thread shows there still isn't a consensus on the existence of man-made climatic change. There will always be "someone" to say that we're just observing natural cycles. History shows that the "someone" will then be paid lots of money to spread their ideas by the industry concerned.

So if the STW concensus is now that climatic change existsa dn is a bad thing, what are we doing about it?

[url= http://www.carbonfootprint.com/calculator.aspx ]One of many carbon footprint calculators[/url]

In my case a lot but still not enough:

"Your footprint is 5.23 metric tons per year
The average for the industrial nations is about 11 metric tons
The average worldwide carbon footprint is about 4 metric tons
The worldwide target to combat climate change is 2 metric tons"

I eat meat, do energy greedy sports and have a car. The house is sorted though, still no need for heating (down to 21°C in the living room so it won't be long before the wood burner gets lit).

Love the reference to continental drift Ninfan. Basically we should never listen to scientists because, like idiiots, they base their hypotheses on the availalble data and change them when the data suggests they should.

Instead we should listen to Lord Lawson cos he rattles out the same old shite consistently and with absolutely zero regard to any data whatsoever.

10/10.

This thread shows there still isn't a consensus on the existence of man-made climatic change.

Edukator - Troll

Of course there is no consensus, there rarely if ever is. This thread shows there still isn't a consensus on the existence of man-made climatic change. There will always be "someone" to say that we're just observing natural cycles.

Concensus doesn't require unanimity 😕 It means general agreement, which there certainly is.

After over 10 years on these threads there is still the odd denier that raises his head and several deniers who don't post on the threads anymore. I don't think there is a consensus yet, just less vocal deniers.

I don't think there is a consensus yet, just less vocal deniers.

Ban Ki Moon Says:

'get the frick over it, people. It's happening so you'd better sort your schizzle, girlfriend.'

on the telly last night and everything.

I think the public deny it because if they accept it then they have to do as Edukator has done rather than just carrying on damaging whilst in denial.

Thing, in everything we know about "excess" is the issue.

You can swallow poison and your body will react and save you, as long as you only swallow a little bit.

You can hit yourself in the face with a brick, and, your body will heal, as long as you only do it a few times

People live safely in areas of high natural radiation as their bodies have evolved to cope over time

The environment can balance long term, slow shifts in pollutant or atmospheric contamination.

What matters is the rate of release. I can't see how anyone can not understand that a massive and rapid (<100 years) change in the status quo in terms of atmospheric concentration of CO2 WILL change things.

What those things are, and if you think they are "good" or "bad" well, that's mostly politics.....

I am not a "Climate Change" denier.

The climate is cyclical. It has changed greatly many times with no help from mankind.

I think pollution is a bad thing.

I think over reliance on fossil fuels is a bad thing.

However, I am completely skeptical regarding some of the "Green" solutions that are now being heavily subsidized and proclaimed to be excellent solutions.

Hydrogen powered cars. Ridiculous, requires huge electrical output to produce. Complex and expensive infrastructure to supply.
Hybrid cars. Ridiculous, lugging heavy, expensive batteries around. What's the real carbon footprint of those things?

Offshore wind. Ridiculous. Expensive needs massive subsidy to be worthwhile. The carbon footprint of the construction and support vessels is huge.

I await my flaming.

The climate is cyclical. It has changed greatly many times with no help from mankind.

Yes but as I explained, a) it wasn't always a good thing and b) it's never changed this fast.

Ridiculous, requires huge electrical output to produce

The point about H is that you can (in theory) produce it where renewable energy is free and transport it. That's not ridiculous at all.

Hybrid cars. Ridiculous, lugging heavy, expensive batteries around.

Do you know how much the battery in a Prius weighs?

Offshore wind. Ridiculous. Expensive needs massive subsidy to be worthwhile.

What's cost got to do with it? Is offshore wind too expensive, or is coal too cheap? The need for renewables has nothing to do with being competitive in the market.

People live safely in areas of high natural radiation as their bodies have evolved to cope over time

Oh dear, you've fallen for those "studies" which claim lower cancer rates in high natural radiation areas in places such as Iran. Do some of your own research and you'll find the studies are highly misleading and many of the claims plain inaccurate.

Thing, in everything we know about "excess" is the issue.

Spot on.

A point I often bring up with the lay-deniers is that they are quite happy with the idea that "the climate is always changing" and most would accept that huge natural forces such as volcanoes must play a part in this natural change.

After all, volcanoes spew out somewhere in the region of 0.15 to 0.26 BILLION metrics tons of CO2 every year! That's a lot.

But anthropogenic CO2 emissions stand at 35 BILLION metric tons a year!

Can that [i]really[/i] have no effect?

Put another way, we would need an extra 11,200 volcanoes the size of [url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K%C4%ABlauea ]K?lauea[/url] in Hawaii to produce that much CO2.

Imagine for a moment that we are in an alternate Earth where there is no man-made CO2, but we have an extra 11,200 huge active volcanoes and more of them appearing every year. How many people would readily dismiss that?

[Source: [url= http://volcanoes.usgs.gov/hazards/gas/climate.php ]"Volcanic Gases and Climate Change Overview", US Geological Survey[/url]]