[Closed] Glentress cafe up for lease

Is it that time already?

Jeeeesus I'm not sure there are enough hobnobs in the local Tesco for this one. 😯

I was thinking Mule bars and bacon rolls geoff

Let's get this shit started already......

The Hub was sssoooooooo much betterer

The Hub was a smelly, damp shit-hole.

* leaves to simmer for a few pages *

[quote=legend ]**** off! It had character!
Yeah, this one
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Edit: quick work mods!

The Hub was sssoooooooo much betterer

+1

BOOM!

Saw the funniest thing in my life ever in there (the hub). We're in an orderly que waiting to purchase some mediocre sludge when Bloke walks in, goes to retrieve bottle of pop from fridge and smashes self in square in the face with the edge of the fridge door. EVERYONE in the queue winces and goes Ooooh under their breath/snorts their beverage/convection meanwhile guy just turns and goes to pay for drink without batting an eyelid. doesnt acknowledge it one iota. (doesn't sound funny written down but believe me we were crying to the point of asphyxiation.)

I noticed the peel had stopped selling beers. I guessed they had lost the licence but probably just not bothered renewing it. Ignoring the "the hub was better" debate, some easy things that would improve it

Better opening hours - earlier opening at weekends for breakfast and how about some late opening in summer for evening rides etc

Events tied into to mountain biking. For example when a DH WC round is on why not show it and have a bit of a party atmosphere. If there's a race on then maybe some tie in with that - discounts for racers etc

BBQs in summer. Freshens up the menu and relieves queues in the main bit.

More efficient queue management. If it's 20 deep and not moving I just head into Peebles for a post ride coffee.

The current approach just feels a bit flat. Would love to give it a go myself but I reckon the financials would make absolutely no sense

The current approach just feels a bit flat. Would love to give it a go myself but I reckon the financials would make absolutely no sense

Was in just before the enduro in August and that was it, just flat. Food was OK normal stuff really. Think I heard a microwave ping when I ordered scrambled eggs so serious points off for that.

Like anything that big unless it's full the atmosphere will need work, if it's full it doesn't look like it could cope. Catch 22 really

Flat... exactly. The hub wasn't perfect, but there was at least an atmosphere.

Aye there was. Like a big smelly cloud.

Fact is, they had a blank canvas with the new cafe and they did not do a very good job of it. Queues too long and no atmosphere, poorly sited and given the hub was in a temporary cabin, the fact that people can even compare the two says a lot about how much the Peel falls short.

The FC ballsed up the development in such a way that makes it difficult for any operator to be significantly better than the current set up. Although making cakes as good as the hubs rather than the bought in stuff they have at the moment would help a lot.

Do we know whether or not the current operators are entering the bidding process for the new lease? Seems like a ten year lease might encourage someone to make a bit more of an investment in time money and effort.

imnotverygood - Member

the fact that people can even compare the two says a lot about how much the Peel falls short.

I compare them in ways like:
"Hey, I'm not going to leave the cafe dirtier than I came in"
"The atmosphere might be bland but at least nobody's actively trying to make me feel unwelcome after a morning spent trailbuilding"
"It's not completely full"

Maybe I'm biased because of being a relative noob, and having never seen the Hub when it was good. But by the end it was rubbish, and an absolute masterclass in trading off goodwill and past glories. I was really surprised they even went for the new contract tbh, they didn't act like they were planning to.

Still, no denying the new place is often badly run, has no atmosphere, and is in the bottom of a hole. Why the FC thought that was a good idea... But I'd take it over the hub any day. Most times when there's a long queue, it's because there's more people in the cafe than the Hub could cope with after all. You'd have to be brave to buy into a long contract without some assurances on development, too.

There's long queues in the peel and there were long queues in the hub because the serving counter in both is/was too small for the number of customers. It's pretty much the same size in the peel as it was in the hub.

"Hey, I'm not going to leave the cafe dirtier than I came in"

I always felt a bit off going into the Peel covered in mud. It just seemed too nice and clean. The new centre at Kirroughtree is also new but I never felt quite as (unnecessarily) guilty about it.

No the current lease holders aren't pursuing a renewal and the FC are to blame. The terms of the lease have made it impossible for the current business to remain viable.
What most visitors don't realise is that the lease hold s have no say in vital criteria to run the business.. Opening hours are governed by the FC and are deeply unrealistic, for example the Hub was only open on weekends and maybe Wednesday's (if I remember rightly) during the winter when the traffic was very low. The Peel is required to be open all week from 10-6, just imagine the overhead involved there in terms of staff, power and produce when you only get a half dozen punters through the door..??
Promised development of trails and facilities has not happened, in fact nothing has happened in the forest since the massive overspend of the Peel centre sucked all the funds out of development budget.
The lease holders get no dispensation to work events in the forest, they'd have to make and pay for arrangements with the event organiser (usually not the FC), and due to the location of the Peel most events don't want to start there is its right at the bottom of a big hill.
All the way down to stupid little things like the lack of move,net on the part of the FC with regards to parking charges that killed a lot of what little midweek trade there was when all the dog walkers and old biddies out for a stroll got stung for several quid parking just cause they wanted to stop by for a cup of tea and a scone. Attempts were made to allow the Peel to validate parking for customers but the FC wouldn't move so the place is like a ghost town during the week and the staff are getting paid to twiddle their thumbs and watch produce expire.
As for the menu.? To say it's not up to scratch is an understatement and it pains the lease holder to lower his standards as much as he has just to be able to serve hot food at all... Kitchen is less than half the size they were told it would be when lease was signed, there is no larder or refrigeration available in the kitchen... The microwave you hear is them reheating food that had to be prepared offsite as the kitchen wouldn't look out of place in a studio flat.!!!

Sorry about the ranty nature of the post but I've spent hours talking with the lease holders about the problems they've had which have taken a massive toll on them personally and professionally, they can't get out of the lease quick enough and I don't blame them one bit. Whoever takes the place on next next better go in with eyes wide open or they will end up the same way...

H1ghland3r - Member

in fact nothing has happened in the forest since the massive overspend of the Peel centre sucked all the funds out of development budget.

Categorically untrue, this.

Ok, possibly overstated the situation there.. Having said that how much of what has been done was funded by the FC rather than done specifically for events of by volunteers.?
The original tender stated that several £100,000 had been earmarked for further development in the forest, both cycling related and for other activities... I have trouble seeing it.. There is barely enough maintenance going on to keep the red and blue routes consistently open and viable.

I find it very reassuring that this was the onLy point in my extensive post that you felt worthy of comment.. 🙄

Points above are why I'll never pay for parking at GT.

If I recall,from a post on here a while ago, a FOC request to the Forecstry Commission revealed the parking fee covered the administration of the parking fee and penalty notices and contributed very little is anything.

The FC may have got an income from Parking Eye os a similar outfit taking it on, but it produces very little revenue otherwise.

The hub wasn't great, but wasn't 7 quid for a panini either.

As I recall the Hub kitchen wasn't that big either ?

I gave up with the new café when I asked for a tuna and tomato toastie - and they said they couldn't manage a variation, as the toasties are pre-made and frozen. Yum yum yum....

(careful there monkeyfudger - you are talking about local people's teenage kids, many of whom post on here)

The new one is rubbish. I want to sit in the sun with a view rather than facing a hillside. Strangely for that reason alone I have never been back

Its a cafe at a very popular trail centre, that attracts thousands of people, yet
The food is bad, expensive and the service is slow (kitchen too small, counter too small)

Despite being in a beautiful Valley it was built in a hole?

Whoever was in charge of building it should be held accountable.

Yeah the hub was a temporary structure but, the food was great, it was obviously run and staffed by mtbers, was great to see the Tracy/emma leading classes of wee kids in the freeride area

Nostalgia time.....Just after it opened we visited from the flat lands of Cambridge, Emma shuttled us up at the airport to the hotel bybthe hub (run by a crazy old guy claimed to be an ex Iraqi navy sub captain!?!)and t & m were really keen to get our impression of the trails and spread the word down south....

Found a pic, couldn't replicate it now as there be no where to sit outside the peel in the sun as its in a man made depression

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At times the Peel had odd trading views. I was out on a road ride one Sunday morning with some mates. Stopped at the Peel for breakfast to find it locked, but guys wandering round inside chatting. I tapped the window and asked if we could come in 'Sorry mate, we don't open for another 5 minutes' It was chucking it down and we were freezing, I asked 'can't we just come in and wait til you're open?'. Reply 'Nope, if we do that there will be loads of people wanting in'

We headed off to Innerleithen after that.

I think it can be easy to blame FCS - who have some form for bullying small organisations - but the café folk surely read the contract terms before they made their business plan and pitched for the tender ? If they didn't then they only have themselves to blame, and if FCS have broken the terms re size of kitchen etc then that is for the lawyers to sort out, Shirley.

If the terms are really that anti-competitive then what happens if nobody bids ? Botulism Burgers like in the car park at Innerleithen ?

If you don't like the café head to Peebles town centre - parking free apart from Saturdays when it's 50p or something token. Spend the money in the local community. Or Costa.

Can't say I'm surprised or even sorry this has happened. A completely soulless place.
I have some sympathy with the current leaseholders if as said above they are governed by FC conditions.

I suspect these conditions will have to change or it could be empty for some time?

As for parking charges!!! Scrap these and maybe the café could become more viable.

It's fair to say that the majority of complaints centre around failings by the FC rather than the folk that run the cafe (though I find the frozen toastie thing hard to believe!)

I always felt the FC were to blame. When Tracy and Emma didn't get the lease I suspected the FC tender laid out a list of completely unrealistic expectations and they quite rightly said, no that'll never work, here's our more realistic proposal and the FC just disqualified them instantly.

I definitely think the increased parking charges and the private parking mob have negatively impacted visitor numbers. The Buzzard's nest used to be rammed with cars all day every day at weekends. Now you could turn up at any time and get a space. People are either not coming back at all, or they're parking elsewhere. That has the potential to hit sales in the cafe, shop etc.

The FC are incredibly short sighted. I know the original 7 Stanes project was a response to the F&M outbreak but do they still have a remit or legal obligation to provide leisure services and facilities?

Re the frozen toastie - that is what the woman behind the counter said to me - I didn't inspect the premises myself so maybe she couldn't be bothered making a new toastie ? Neither premise reflects well...

Having worked at the Hub the reason they didn't get the lease was due to one of the owners annoying the FC so much and that they failed to submit in their tender what was asked for. I think it is fair to say it did get a bit personal.

Parking charges are a pain everywhere
Privately run llandegla charges £4-50 to park!!! Tho the food at the café is absolutely outstanding; freshly made, big portions, good service even when busy and its delicous!

The real scandal here is tomato in a toastie. Just wrong. Bloody foreigners coming over here with your weird culinary requests.

It's the classic FC self destructive cycle.

Location is a success, FC seek to capitalise on this to benefit public purse (nothing wrong with that)

£X million investment, of which 80% goes on the buildings (an iconic & bold statement using the best of natural and contemporary materials by an up and coming architect), 15% on resurfacing the car parks, and 5% on improving the trails - in order to get back the investment they charge exorbitant rent on the lease (so the price of the food goes up) and increase parking fees.

Location no longer a success, public purse loses millions.

I've had a really good think about what would be the most thankless, soul destroying task in the world.

After discounting fluffer at a busy LA porn studio, Boris Johnson's hairdresser, Donald Trumps PA, and Tony Blairs accountant, I've come to the conclusion that it would be establishing a trail centre cafe, serving food and coffee deemed to be of an acceptable standard, in an atmosphere generally regarded as conducive enough for the average [s]whiney middle class cockbag[/s] STWer to think it was good enough to park their Audi outside (without paying for parking, naturally)

I've heard that this bread isn't even baked on the premises, and this salt isn't organic......

😆

I've heard that this bread isn't even baked on the premises, and this salt isn't organic......

A stiffly worded online review is what's needed here.
That'll learn 'em. 😀

Be sure to comment on the offensive language of the patrons, won't you?

Well when I went there I had a massive piece of chocolate cake for first breakfast while I waited for my bacon and black pudding rolls to be made, so it's a big thumbs up from me.

Yeah I'll say I've never had any problem with the food.

Riding a pushbike that cost several thousand pounds then moaning about the cost of a bit of cake is a bit 😆

what ninfan said...

around here they are charging a couple quid just to park.... no facilitys at all... Scolty for example or kirkhill.

pay to drive your car up a car destroying road , park it in bog and come back to find someones jimmied your passengers door.... Or in winter ... drive up the lethally icy road and get stuck in the parking space require pushing out.

YAY for forestry carparks....

next till ill park in the town centre carpark (for free legally) and ride up to the trails from there.

I have no issue with paying to park places although I would prefer to see the money go back into whatever it is I was parked to go and do. A days car parking at a trail centre is cheap (£5) when I look at other things I do - Cinema £9 a ticket, theatre £20, Horse riding £20/h, pub (£3/pint).

As for the café, I never go in and I never went in the hub either. I go to Glentress to ride and would sooner see all focus put on that. I can bring my own sandwiches. When on road rides with the club we do café stops - You'd be looking at about £5 for a slice of cake and a coffee.

I do think some people have a slightly unrealistic expectation on cost. Didn't notice anyone working in/for/at Glentress driving a Bentley last time I was there so they are not raking it in at the expense of the poor mtbing public.

around here they are charging a couple quid just to park.... no facilitys at all... Scolty for example or kirkhill.

True, but the money raised at a particular location isn't ring fenced, it goes into the big pot. So in affect by paying at Scolty then you are paying for facilities and maintenance elsewhere like Glentress or Bennachie.

On the Glentress cafe, looking on TripAdvisor, it doesn't look like the present incumbents are covering themselves with glory, there are plenty reviews noting the bad and overpriced food.

Riding a pushbike that cost several thousand pounds then moaning about the cost of a bit of cake is a bit

it would be establishing a trail centre cafe

Apparently there is a cafe at Gisburn.

I can't really comment as I have never known it to be open. Whether summer or winter, mid week or weekend, early or late.

When left to their own devices, cafe owners don't always do the obvious things, so maybe that's what the FC where trying to avoid at GT.

Love the logic, if you do an expensive hobby put up with shit and stop complaining.

Or perhaps a £2 bit of cake isn't that expensive in the grand scheme of things. Then again I've never found the cafe to be expensive, but I guess it's all perspective and being used to paying big city prices, it's probably cheaper than normal for me.

BoardinBob - I think the point is that if you're paying that much for cake and coffee, and parking for your Audi, in order to ride your carbon fibre Santa Cruz around a forest, then bearing in mind these overheads, you're going to be left with little option but to increase the rent to the tenants in your buy-to-let properties.

Won't somebody think of the children?!

More if it's worth 2 quid or not. The breakfast I had was fairly average for the price. If you want to do something do it well, serving mediocre food to a captive audience will turn over cash but not make it work.

BoardinBob - I think the point is that if you're paying that much for cake and coffee, and parking for your Audi, in order to ride your carbon fibre Santa Cruz around a forest, then bearing in mind these overheads, you're going to be left with little option but to increase the rent to the tenants in your buy-to-let properties.

Won't somebody think of the children?!

😆

I am honestly surprised that the Forestry Commission can't develop a cafe. I was watching a harvester at work on a hilside and thought "By Kinnock! I bet the (British) manager of that harvester would make an excellent cafe guru!". Then I coughed and a bit of Coed Y Brenin came out.

A few years back, we stayed very local to the trails at Glentress. The owner commented they had talked with a FC representative re the new Peel building and had got the response that they did not want to encourage any more cyclists to Glentress.

To me, it seemed a bit odd that the FC moved 20,000 tonnes (or whatever) of soil to "landscape" something that didn't (IMO) need landscaping.

£7 million for a new "cafe" and a remarked desire not to encourage "any more cyclists". Did someone have a budget to burn?

With a spend of that much, a facility that will never cover costs (£35 quid flapjack anyone?), and anecdotal references to the car park user numbers dropping, I can see MTB'ers being blamed for the "failure" - "MTBing not as popular as it once was" and support for the trails first gradually, then brutally being withdrawn.

After all you can't state one thing and have evidence proving another.

It makes you think, doesn't it.

I actually heard that the landscaping above the Peel was an homage to The Grassy Knoll

I've to agree with many of the above, and IMO the biggest problem they have was created by whichever idiot it was that signed off a design which meant there wasn't a view from the café.

Probably the same idiot who dictated a site design that included spreading the buildings across the site, needed more earth moving than required for the access roads to the new Forth Bridge nevermind the kitchen/serving issues.

Food and drink wise, never have a problem; usually have Cullin Skink and a pot of tea (live nearby and ride there at least monthly if not more, nights too).

Whatever happens hope the blonde lady and the hippy chick keep their jobs 😉

was watching a harvester at work on a hilside and thought "By Kinnock! I bet the (British) manager of that harvester would make an excellent cafe guru!".

Well, the unlimited salad bar would probably help...

car park user numbers dropping

If user numbers are dropping, then we'll have to put the parking fees up to maintain current income levels! (Some would suggest that therein lies the mentality of the public sector)

[i]£7 million for a new "cafe" and a remarked desire not to encourage "any more cyclists". Did someone have a budget to burn?[/i]

I did hear that they got the full grant, rather than the 50% they were expecting...

The owner commented they had talked with a FC representative re the new Peel building and had got the response that they did not want to encourage any more cyclists to Glentress.

Perhaps that's Chinese whispers, I'd bet they were keen to encourage other user groups into the forest in order to mitigate any downturn in MTB numbers, as was already mentioned the whole trail center boom occurred as a response to F&M, so you'd expect it to swing back again. Or maybe they viewed MTB at Glentress to be at some nominal capacity, so were diverting investment elsewhere. Whereas encouraging walkers is probably much cheaper and straightforward (short routes, little erosion, happy on fire-roads) and they get the same increase in car parking and cafe revenue.

"Perhaps that's Chinese whispers" - Maybe.

But as perhaps as the "jewel in the crown" of the 7Stanes and with the right to roam (i.e. not sticking to the way marked routes), I would have thought diversification would lead to huge (but not insurmountable) conflict issues.

Forestry Commision good at growing trees a bit stuck in their ways and not good at providing and running facilities for other activities. Not much of a shock is it.

There have always been waymarked walkers route at Glentress. Walkers and cyclists mostly seem to co-exist just fine (occasional stories of folk wandering onto inappropriate trails notwithstanding) and diversification includes Go Ape which doesn't seem to cause much "conflict".

Mtbers don't own trail centers, perfectly sensible for FC to increase use by other groups. There shouldn't really be massive conflict issues if people are sensible. Heck the yanks manage it and they are hardly known for their 'gentle' conflict resolution.

I've had a really good think about what would be the most thankless, soul destroying task in the world.

After discounting fluffer at a busy LA porn studio, Boris Johnson's hairdresser, Donald Trumps PA, and Tony Blairs accountant, I've come to the conclusion that it would be establishing a trail centre cafe, serving food and coffee deemed to be of an acceptable standard, in an atmosphere generally regarded as conducive enough for the average whiney middle class cockbag STWer to think it was good enough to park their Audi outside (without paying for parking, naturally)

I've heard that this bread isn't even baked on the premises, and this salt isn't organic......

Nope, it's actually a pretty simple requirement Binners, Gemma at Dalbeattie, and also when she was at Mabie, has managed to turn out very decent food at a very reasonable price. The café at Ae is also pretty good, as was the one at Laggan before the FC decided it needed shutting too.

Hels- I was told the exact same re the frozen toasties.

Last time I went into Peebles, parked in town for 20p, went into Wetherspoons and had a surprisingly good Eggs benedict and decent coffee with free refills for the princely sum of 4.50. Then rode in via Janets brae - all for less than the cost of parking.

Or maybe they viewed MTB at Glentress to be at some nominal capacity, so were diverting investment elsewhere.

Last time I went into Peebles, parked in town for 20p, went into Wetherspoons and had a surprisingly good Eggs benedict and decent coffee with free refills for the princely sum of 4.50. Then rode in via Janets brae - all for less than the cost of parking.

Mrs Binners works for the Wildlife Trust. Their aren't enough swear words in the English language - even her own incredibly creative Wigan ones - to do justice to her talking about people doing just this. If someone listened to it in the pub, even in Wigan, they'd be writing some very very cutting reviews indeed about the establishment they heard it in, I can tell you!

In amongst all that free-flowing effing and jeffing, you'll learn that its because all that money that it costs to maintain those trails, pay for staff etc comes from the secret, magic money tree located in the enchanted glen at the centre of the forest. They spend all the money from the car parking fees on coke and hookers, while pointing to the mugs who pay it, and laughing like drains

True story

The owner commented they had talked with a FC representative re the new Peel building and had got the response that they did not want to encourage any more [s]whiney middle-class cockbags[/s] cyclists to Glentress.

🙂

Forestry Commision good at growing trees a bit stuck in their ways and not good at providing and running facilities for other activities. Not much of a shock is it.

I couldn't disagree more, their approach to the provision of MTB trails was far from stuck in their ways, in fact the leap from sticking some way markers on a loop of gravel forest road to the construction of dedicated singletrack trails with technical challenge was bold and visionary beyond the imagination of most MTB'ers at the time, and utterley reinvigorated the tourist trade in several depressed rural areas.

It's the inability to capitalise on it and the mismanagement of 'grand project' high spend, vanilla trailhead facilities that they seem to repeatedly fall down on.

On a sunny Saturday or Sunday, the traffic queues into Glentress are crazy.
Yet Inners has 50 folk there....

In all my years of going I've never experienced traffic queues but maybe that's a more recent problem. And as for Inners, the majority of trails there are beyond the ability of most folks owning a BSO. Although there seems to be enough people parking at the golf course for the people in the sweaters to put up signs asking them not to park there.

Binners, I'd suggest you look at the FOI mentioned earlier in the thread re where the fiver goes at GT before you get all hot and bothered. I put plenty of money into MTBing in this country, just not through that channel.

In all my years of going I've never experienced traffic queues but maybe that's a more recent problem. And as for Inners, the majority of trails there are beyond the ability of most folks owning a BSO. Although there seems to be enough people parking at the golf course for the people in the sweaters to put up signs asking them not to park there.

Apart from being a soul destroying climb I didn't think that the red was that much worse than the Red at GT.

I'ts easy to say that if things aren't as promised then it's for the lawyers to sort out. It lawyers cost money and the current lease holders, despite what a lot of people on here seem to think, aren't a big business who are raking in the cash and making the customer suffer, they are a small, local business doing their best to survive in very unfavourable terms.
There are extensive issues and differences between what was promised by the FC and what has transpired, in respect to when the centre opened, what the building was supposed to be and what was supposed to happen after the Peel got going.

As a comparison, I have been down to Sherwood Pines a couple of times with the family for a holiday. Once you get into the forest centre, everything is right there, parks for the kids to play in, the start to all the walks and bike trails, go ape snd the off-road segways etc. All are right there with the cafe, you can park your car and spend an entire day with the family no problem.
Then look at Glentress, the cafe and car park is (as was amusingly but accurately described as a hole earlier) at the bottom edge of the forest, you can get to the start of some of the forest walks across the road. If you fancy go-ape then that's a 5minute walk up the road assuming you know it's there as they don't make much effort to let you know if you assume the Peel is supposed to be a base to start from.. The free ride area is a 5 minute DRIVE up the hill if you just fancied a bit of fun and jumping, the list goes on..

As I understand it, the current master plan by the FC is to flatten the free ride area, build 60 odd forest lodges in that area for holiday makers and then 'recreate' the free ride area at the peel at the bottom of the hill. To my mind this is a sticking plaster over the problem and given that I highly doubt a fully FC controlled free ride area will stand up to what is at the buzzards nest currently I can't see it being as popular, I hope I'm wrong.
It still doesn't address the issue of the Peel supposedly being the centrepiece of the forest where everyone starts and finishes but everything in the forest starts somewhere else..
The FCs other stated goal for the future was to transition Glentress away from being a working forest with a few public attractions to a tourism led business where the attractions are the main source of income. As I understand it the lumber content of the forest is being transitioned towards this goal...?!?
Try as I might I cannot understand what the FC are doing, it seems almost as if they are trying to make it fail for some reason...

Apart from being a soul destroying climb I didn't think that the red was that much worse than the Red at GT.

Last descent has some steep bits and drops that are quite a bit bigger than anything on the red at GT - still nothing too mental though. I bet the climb puts off a lot of the less 'enthusiast' mountain bikers though.

And there's the fabulous Blue and Green trails at Innerleithen too

i went to llandegla cafe last week

they are doing a special on...

a dish in which all ingredients are locally sourced from either Wrexham, Flintshire or Denbighshire.

The chorizo sausage is specially made for us from our neighbours at Stanley Jones Butchers, who produce premium, grass-fed British meat, reared on their farm just outside of the Coed Llandegla Forest boundary. Topped with yogurt from Llaeth y Llan, Village Dairy in Denbigh where Gareth Roberts and his family have produced superb yogurt from their old farmhouse since the ’80s. The dish is finished with mint and pea shoots from the longest established fruit and vegetable wholesale supplier in the area, J. & R. R. Goodyear and Son, based in Hawarden.

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ticks all the stw middle class cockbag boxes (tho i drive a zafira) was delicous and served swiftly even tho it was very busy

meanwhile at the Peel Centre....

[img] [/img]

I couldn't disagree more, their approach to the provision of MTB trails was far from stuck in their ways, in fact the leap from sticking some way markers on a loop of gravel forest road to the construction of dedicated singletrack trails with technical challenge was bold and visionary beyond the imagination of most MTB'ers at the time, and utterley reinvigorated the tourist trade in several depressed rural areas.

The problem with that argument is that the FC weren't the drivers behind the MTB trails. As far as Glentress was concerned a local legend (Pete Laing) worked pretty hard at convincing the FC to let him and a group of 'Trail Fairies' volunteers build the basis for what is the current black/red and blue routes, not to mention the beginnings of what is now the free ride area, the majority of the FC contribution was some machinery and an operator who also served as a H&S guide to stop the fairies getting carried away with ott trails.
Since the trails became established and Pete has moved on there is a chap employed by the FC who has just about enough budget to maintain what's currently there with the occasional possibility to build something new with fairy help. Luckily the guy is a keen and very fast rider himself which i think helps with a lot of the shortfall...

Not directly cafe related but certainly another indicator of how crap the FC are

A spanking big toilet and shower block...that shuts at 5pm all year round (and doesn't open until 9am). Night ride? No shower or toilet for you. Early morning start? Pee or crap in a bush...

Yes, but Llandegla is housed in a clean, but functional, wooden chalet building with fairly basic facilities,

think how many more people it might attract if it was in a shiny new state of the art glass and granite Eco-building, with mood lighting and gold taps - that's what the visitor of tomorrow really needs... 👿

The problem with that argument is that the FC weren't the drivers behind the MTB trails.

Since the trails became established and Pete has moved on there is a chap employed by the FC who has just about enough budget to maintain what's currently there with the occasional possibility to build something new with fairy help

ticks all the stw middle class cockbag boxes (tho i drive a zafira) was delicous and served swiftly even tho it was very busy

meanwhile at the Peel Centre....

In contrast I was sat having breakfast between practice and race a couple of weeks ago eating great fresh made food. Followed up by a great dinner in a great atmosphere.

I remember the time I went to the new thing at CyB same hollow empty feel.

Apparently there is a cafe at Gisburn.

I can't really comment as I have never known it to be open.

There's a food trailer semi-permanently there now, so I guess it wasn't viable to keep a cafe in operation.

Yes it does seem strange that people are sneered at for making decent, quality food from fresh ingredients. Perhaps it would help MTB get back to it's roots if there was a Gregs and a BK at the trail head, with a late night Kebab van for the night riders.

As I understand it, this is one of the more likely scenarios for what moves in when the current lease expires. Either that or a large, well known chain retailer of hot, caffeinated drinks.
Certainly can't see the prices going down much or the range of food improving if that happens...