[Closed] Give Barcelona a miss this weekend!

Northwind, You seem to pride yourself on your admirable skills in pedantry as a method of attack on others opinions and assertions. A simple goggle search throws up plenty of Catalans saying they want independence because they think they pay too much for poorer spaniards. They recognise they're richer already, but want independence so they'll be richer still.

Seosamh The UN does give all peoples the right to self determination . It is actually in article 1 of the UN charter.
It is a fact that the UN and its members are choosing not to recognise Catalonia as an independent State but that is a different question.
I am not expert on the legal definition of a people but if the UN accepts that Catalans are a people then they are entitled to a free and fair vote on independence.

Gordi, i know what it says, but ultimately the UN is little more that a talking shop and it's subservient to it's members actions. Some of those members have much more sway than others.

If the UN was respected at it's word as law that must be followed, there wouldn't have been a war in iraq for example.

Doesn't that kind of prove North winds point then. This is all about power. Both the UN and the EU have been very quiet on Catalonia. Spain is in debt to the EU for 1 trillion euros. You can see why the EU would be against Catalonia becoming independent.

Course it's all about power. Don't think eu nation's not supporting it is anything to do with money, more turkeys not voting for Christmas.

csb - Member

Northwind, You seem to pride yourself on your admirable skills in pedantry as a method of attack on others opinions and assertions. A simple goggle search throws up plenty of Catalans saying they want independence because they think they pay too much for poorer spaniards.

It's not pedantry; it's accuracy. You said one thing and now you're defending it with something else, finding "plenty of catalans" does nothing to prove either part of your point- either that it's the primary reason, or that they want to make the rich richer.

Since you've not provided any evidence at all to support your statement, and you're now pretending you said something different, I think it's pretty much an admission you were wrong. But I don't know whether you were mistaken or whether you just wanted to demean the Catalan's position.

Plenty of folk seem to agree with me that the motivation from Catalonia appears to be economic. I can't do links and you appear more interested in belittling people than making worthwhile contributions. It's probably more interesting for the actual debate here if you just post the counter evidence for Catalan motivations.

csb - Member
Plenty of folk seem to agree with me that the motivation from Catalonia appears to be economic...

It doesn't matter why people want to be independent.

What matters is that they want to be independent. Some may want it for economic reasons (allegedly the Catalans), some may want it for racial purity (eg many Brexiteers), some may want it for religious reasons, and some may want it because they don't like being ruled by another country.

The reason for independence is up to the people actually voting for it. Their will is what counts.

some may want it for racial purity (eg many Brexiteers)

Care to quantify how many brexiteers seek racial purity?

Their will is what counts.

And if a minority choose for the larger whole?

piemonster - Member
And if a minority choose for the larger whole?

It does help if you can go to the voting booth without getting your head beaten in. If you apply terror tactics to people who turn up to vote, then you can't use the fact that there's not a full turnout in your argument against it.

Care to quantify how many brexiteers seek racial purity?

Are you saying no Brexit voter was motivated by racism to preserve "englishness"?

The perception within Spain and internationally of why they're doing it includes their economic motive. Success at declaring independence seems to depend on international recognition. They aren't having much success at convincing people, perhaps because it appears Ill motivated?

Are you saying no Brexit voter was motivated by racism to preserve "englishness"?

Not at all. But ive no real evidence to how much it’s a factor. That’s why I used a question mark!

There’s wanting to control immigration,and there’s racial purity. One does not automatically mean the other.

What? Like Brexit in Scotland?
It does help if you can go to the voting booth without getting your head beaten in. If you apply terror tactics to people who turn up to vote, then you can't use the fact that there's not a full turnout in your argument against it.

Yes,exactly like Brexit in Scotland. (UK wide vote debate aside)

You’re right, the Spanish state decided to be *****. And that’s clearly unacceptable, at least to me it is, the international community doesn’t seem to care.

But before concluding an opinion either for or against I need some evidence beyond what we have. What little evidence I’ve seen out width the referendum is not conclusive.

You could equally well say the Spanish and Catalan unionist desire to prevent Catalan independence is economically motivated,

There’s wanting to control immigration,and there’s racial purity. One does not automatically mean the other.

Gordimhor, I believe that is Spain's motivation. And rightly so in my opinion, they have a duty to represent the economic interest of the wider Spanish population.

I don't believe that the economic benefit to the majority of a state should overrule the right of a minority people to hold a referendum on self determinationin their region.

/\/\ agree with that

Ideally the two things should be possible at the same time.

The larger state should act in the interest of the whole whilst respecting the rights of the part.

Gordi, say hypothetically, Edinburgh, Glasgow and Aberdeen all want their own independence votes, post IS.

Do they all get their votes, and all on a fleeting 50%+1 ruling?

Yes, if enough councillors who want it are voted through to enable a majority and a referendum was in their manifesto then I'd say that would be right.

I think the problem is like any rule it will just break down at some point

Is it at towns, cities, streets or houses ? who knows but the argument will break down.
However the lets ignore them [ as th emajority dont want them to leave the [ super] state is also untenable as you cannot make people stay in a country [block]they dont want to

Would the UK have to stay in the eu if the eu voted and said nope we want you to stay so there

Essentially you actually have to look at the merits of each case rather than think you can have some universal law that will always apply.

Don’t try that rational pragmatic thought bullshit. It’s got no place on this forum.

Essentially you actually have to look at the merits of each case rather than think you can have some universal law that will always apply.

More or less, but I think you could probably apply some valid tests to it, is support overwhelming(I think this is important, I've developed my opinion since 2014) and is it sustained over time. Now the definition of overwhelming and sustained are up for debate, but I think they are valid things that need considered. The whim of a majority isn't really valid imo.

Not to say that I think Catalonia shouldn't have a ref, i think they should and it's probably the only way to solve this issue.

The primary motivation for the Catalan independence is for rich people to get richer,

It's very easy to come to this conclusion, and comparisons like 'how would London feel if they were ruled by Manchester' are also easy to come by. However I think it's much more complex than that. The history of the civil war and the Franco regime is a large part of it, so it's not just about money.

I can't believe the Spanish govt are considering charging Puigdemont with 'rebellion'. That to me would seem like a very easy way to fire people up. Every mass-movement benefits from a martyr or two. Look at Northern Ireland.

Ha! So the leaders of this brave rebellion have scarpered to Belgium. It seems once they realised they could be looking at the inside of a prison cell as the price of their principles they had second thoughts.

Game over. Well played Spain.

dazh - Member
Ha! So the leaders of this brave rebellion have scarpered to Belgium.

Aye tbh, quite obviously planned by the looks of it, considering there was no real attempt to take any power beyond declaring it. Spain could easily scupper them completely by saying, right, no charges, come on back.

I was wondering all along what the final game plan was and if puigdemont was actually willing to spend time in jail, obviously that was never in the thinking and the hope was that exile would mobilise the masses..

pretty feeble tbh.

dazh - Member
Ha! So the leaders of this brave rebellion have scarpered to Belgium. It seems once they realised they could be looking at the inside of a prison cell as the price of their principles they had second thoughts.

Game over. Well played Spain.

How brave would you be, internet hero?

Also they are still free to exert influence whereas in a Spanish gaol there would be nothing heard from them.

Companys sounds like he atleast had the courage of his convictions though.

He sounds like an interesting character actually worth reading into more. (I'd to google, I'd no real knowlegde of him.)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Llu%C3%ADs_Companys

I can't believe the Spanish govt are considering charging Puigdemont with 'rebellion'. That to me would seem like a very easy way to fire people up. Every mass-movement benefits from a martyr or two. Look at Northern Ireland.

They have made a bad situation worse

I cannot see hwo they can do it well but the only method is via discussion and a respect for democracy - this does not mean a blind adherence to the constitution as it seems many in the region do genuinely want to leave and you cannot just ignore that with the full force of the law as real sedition
will appear and quite likely terrorism.

Not sure how this gets resolved now but i fear decades of basque like troubles.

What a strange state of affiars. Spaniards seeking political asylum in Belgium 😯

@dazh Far from game over, this is just going to make Spain look daft as they have to grovel to ask for extradition (which I imagine will be declined, no treaty between Slain and Belgium ?). Then you have the Catalans able to say and do as they please. If there is another election the exiled politicians can take part in interviews, social media campaigns etc

A right mess

Or you might say Catalans seeking asylum in the (former) Spanish Netherlands which Belgium was until 1714. Oddly enough that was the year of the siege of Barcelona too.
Who knows what will happen from here on.

Just like to publicly apologise to dazh for for my earlier comment.

It was supposed to sound ironic, but failed.

Cheap shot, sorry.

grovel to ask for extradition

No need to grovel at all, just issue European Arrest Warrant, far fewer ways to fight than standard extradition treaty. That said, can't imagine them being holed up in Belgium is a bad result for the Spanish Government.

Just like to publicly apologise to dazh for for my earlier comment.

Really not required (but thanks anyway). I've long since grown out of being offended by anything said on here. Just a bit of fun innit? 🙂

Back to our rebellious heroes though, I have no real opinion either way on whether the independence campaign is a good or bad thing. I do find it amusing though that it's leaders jump ship at the first sign they may have to suffer the consequences of their actions. Did they think this was a game?

I do find it amusing though that it's leaders jump ship at the first sign they may have to suffer the consequences of their actions. Did they think this was a game?

I assume they figured spain would negotiate rather than imprison them as traitors

That was a bit stupid of them, the PP's never shown any particular inclination to negotiate.

I don't think for one moment the Spanish govt had this all planned out. They dropped the ball when they failed to allow the vote in the first place, all the polls seemed to indicate the vote would be remain.

Once done though, they had no choice but to play hardball, and I'm willing to bet money there as much disbelief in Madrid as here that at the first sign of things getting tough they'd leg it to Belgium (of all places)

Bizarre.

I can't imagine that fleeing to Belgium was an easy decision. Leaving your country, home, friends and family behind in order to be in a position to promote your cause? There's not many would do that.

Junkyard - lazarus

I assume they figured spain would negotiate rather than imprison them as traitors

I assume they expected the people to be up in arms and start demanding independence.(Their call for civil disobedience that was ignored suggests that) They've clearly miscalculated peoples knowledge of history, or rather willingness to remember IME (imo they are obviously trying to create a ridiculous franco-ist link and play on emotions) and they've also miscalculated peoples actual desire for independence and willingness to do anything about it beyond a bit of a party and flag waving.

I think they've calculated charges all along, they scarpered and lawyered up extremely quickly. That suggests pre meditated to me.

I doubt Puigdemont will go down as one of the great political thinkers of our time.

Press Conference due soon.

Emily Maitless made the same point last night on Newsnight, the bizarre spectacle of Spain seeking extradition of politicians from Belgium whilst they claim asylum. You couldn't make it up. Reading some of the background the Belgian politician who publicly offered them asylum is himself a Flemish separatist who wants independence from Belgium.

FWIW Spain had no choice, the Referendum was illegal, you have to take action against those who called it or you are yourself in breach of your constitutional duties. Where they have mismanaged it is calling in external police and dragging women voters out by their hair.

seosamh77 - Member
...I doubt puigdemont will go down as one of the great political thinkers of our time.

Any cause that can get that many people out on the streets, or for that, that many people willing to risk getting their heads beaten in when going to vote without violent response, is a movement.

New leaders will emerge as needed.

It is also good the cabinet has sought asylum because it removes a potential flashpoint for violence if they were arrested. As people committed to a non-violent campaign, I'm sure the Catalan govt ministers had this as a plan B all along.

To me the Catalans look much more committed to their independence than the Scots when compared to the Scottish independence movement. That is lucky to get 10,000 people out in public support, yet with much the same population, Catalonia can get 100,000 out no problem. Maybe it's the better weather? 🙂

It will be interesting to see how this pans out, it's a struggle of a faded imperial feudal power against democracy. Whatever happens, Spain will be irrevocably changed.

Could it be beginning of the Heineken map unfolding in Europe?

FWIW Spain had no choice, the Referendum was illegal, you have to take action against those who called it or you are yourself in breach of your constitutional duties

against democracy

a feeble attempt at independence based on a dubious referendum isn't democracy.

I also think if the Catalans were so dedicated to independence, they'd currently be occupying government buildings.

I think you underestimate the power of peoples jobs and mortgages. I also don't think a head count of people on the streets is much a measure of dedication.

I cannot see hwo they can do it well but the only method is via discussion and a respect for democracy

That brought us Brexit 🙂

this does not mean a blind adherence to the constitution

If the Second Amendment isn't enough, this seems to be a perfectly good example of why written constitutions are a terrible idea. Using democracy and law as a shield against, erm, democracy and law.

I think you underestimate the power of peoples jobs and mortgages. I also don't think a head count of people on the streets is much a measure of dedication.

Especially when there was a similar sized march for the union the following day.

Over the last 40 years Spain has developed many of the characteristics of a democracy. However given the recent violence by police in Catalonia that "democracy" is looking pretty thread bare.

Since when did democracy become a synonym for non-violence?

If non-violence is a prerequisite, democracy doesn't exist.

The real problem the catalon separatists face is there is not a significant majority for it. they raised the stakes and gambled and lost badly.

^^ we don’t know that do we ? Opinion polls are worthless, the seperatists won a majority at the last election.

tjagain - Member
The real problem the catalon separatists face is there is not a significant majority for it. they raised the stakes and gambled and lost badly.

What I thought significant is that a substantial number (but small %) of the voters risked getting their heads beaten in to vote No.

I've been thinking about this, and as far a minority and secession is concerned, there is a democratic deficit there, well it's more than a deficit, there's no real route to it, except at the behest of another. So there is a democratic conundrum happening there.

I wouldn't say denials of votes are anti democratic, just there hasn't really been a particularly valid way to handle them put forward.

I'd suggest if people want the normalization of secession, then much more stringent rules than a one-time 50%+1 vote have to be put in place for it to become common place and an accepted part of the democratic toolbox.

I dunno, something like, if going for independence, you have to be able to prove the resolve of your movement at the ballot box, over time, and that more than a simple majority agree with it. (as tbh, 52% ruling over 48% in an absolutist manner is not democracy either )

Something like, yes, you're allowed to bring this vote to the public every 10 years, but in doing so it means you must meet the criteria 60%+1 in round 1, 2 and 3 the votes, with the 3 rounds spaced over say a 3 to 6 year period.

Thoughts?

For me, I think big decisions should have safeguards built into them, as a society we are in danger of forgetting that that should even be a consideration within democracy. Quite a dangerous thing imo.

Opinion polls are worthless, the seperatists won a majority at the last election.

imo they are obviously trying to create a ridiculous franco-ist link and play on emotions

hmmmm, I was out in Northern Catalunya a fortnight ago, when the two Gordis were arrested. Was having coffveffe is a small market town when a chap on a microphone stated a political speech, was all full of "we're back to the days of politic prisoners, and remember Franco,and we're all in it together brothers and sisters..."

was received warmly by the assorted folk dotted about judging from the long and loud applause

I know one shouldn't place too much emphasis on one speech in one small town, but they didn't seem to have to try too hard to remind folk of how things used to be run.

seosamh77 - Member
I've been thinking about this, and as far a minority and secession is concerned, there is a democratic deficit there, well it's more than a deficit, there's no real route to it, except at the behest of another. So there is a democratic conundrum happening there....

You'd need to have the co-operation of the country you left, so that would need to be a couple of referendums in 2 countries, unless you could negotiate that possibility I don't see how you could make it standard. Every chance of getting told to sling your hook after 5 years.

I know one shouldn't place too much emphasis on one speech in one small town, but they didn't seem to have to try too hard to remind folk of how things used to be run.

I wonder if any of them can point to any modern day parallels? The Franco regime was brutal.

Modern day spanish governments aren't angels no doubt and I'm pretty sure there's plenty of basque and others that will have legitimate human right concerns about the treatment of their political prisoners and the like, but Franco-ist is a more than a bit of a stretch.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Terror_(Spain)

@seosamh
I think there is a decent case to be made for some kind qualified majority voting on independence referendums but your suggestion seems to high. Secondly there's an argument that referendums should use the same system as the country normally uses why should the burden be higher on people who wish to peacefully and democratically cede from a state.
As for democracy and violence they can co-exist, but surely not when the state authorises the use of violence to prevent it's citizens from peaceful protest or voting.

I'm not saying I agree with it Gordi, I don't. I'm just not surprised at it, so I don't have the sense of outrage some do, as well, I expected it. If you are going to pit yourself against the sovereignty of a country, unlawfully(which is what that vote was), you should expect it. That'll never change.

Regarding 60%, I agree probably does seem high, I could probably be persuaded by arguments to lower it. or maybe have a stepped range, maybe 60/55/50 or the inverse, not sure about that. I just think 51/49 isn't democratic though for such questions, that's just imposition of one will on an extremely similar sized sample.

I think it should be incumbent on separatists to convince people, not impose on people.

I guess the argument against, why not higher, could be that you have to make a deliniation somewhere, why not 65/35, 75/25. I guess the higher the percentage gets, the less valid it becomes to deny that will.

Just thinking out loud, the floor is open on this.

Tempted to email nicola sturgeon to see if I get a reply tbh! 😆

seosamh77 - Member

Since when did democracy become a synonym for non-violence?

It didn't, but when you're using violence to stop people voting...

(yes, the referendum was illegal, but voting in it was not a crime)

epicyclo - Member

To me the Catalans look much more committed to their independence than the Scots when compared to the Scottish independence movement. That is lucky to get 10,000 people out in public support,

It's another asymetric comparison- the scots don't need to be out on the street because we asked for a referendum and westminster said "aye, OK". There's no need for a public mobilization because the political channels work.

No-one got battered for voting, they got battered for obstructing the police as they were trying to confiscate the ballot boxes. That is technically a crime. Could have been a whole lot worse and still legal tbh. (That's where the spanish gov would easily get their provocation/justification from if someone tried to charge the police with assault.)

Again, not saying I agree with it, I'm just looking at it coldly.

I appreciate its ironic that I am referring to the BBC. However the claim that

No-one got battered for voting

The relevant bit is about 40 seconds in

Tbf, it’s not clear from that video they got battered for trying to vote or obstructing police.

Both options are abhorrent, particularly so when the police are obstructing a democratic exercise.

Chanting no pasaran doesn't tally with just going to vote.

I like the no violence attitude of the Catalans which they have maintained despite some clear attempts to provoke it, but it got me to wondering.

Out of all the nations that have achieved independence in the last 250 years, what percentage managed it without violence?

Canada, Australia, New Zealand

You might view that differently if it was your country before Europe landed.

Got to be heavily bias towards some violence I’d have thought. From low level campaigns to all our war.

Why do you ask, looking for a precedent?

obstructing police

Isn't "obstructing police" one of those catch-all things that you get charged with when a cop wants to charge you with something but you aren't actually doing anything wrong? He walks into you and then accuses you of "obstructing" him.

seosamh77 - Member

Chanting no pasaran doesn't tally with just going to vote.

But tallies perfectly with going to vote and finding yourself blocked

1.12s from gordi's video.

But tallies perfectly with going to vote and finding yourself blocked

How does "they shall not pass" tally with that, was it the polis shouting it?

Youse should stop seeing what you want to see.

seosamh77 - Member

How does "they shall not pass" tally with that, was it the polis shouting it?

"all must rise to their feet, to defend the Republic, to defend the people's freedoms as well as their achievements towards democracy!" You can't just translate the words.

DrJ - Member
obstructing police
Isn't "obstructing police" one of those catch-all things that you get charged with when a cop wants to charge you with something but you aren't actually doing anything wrong? He walks into you and then accuses you of "obstructing" him.

Perhaps, but peaceful resistance is still resistance.

Go and rock up to the gates of downing street or some other government building and block the entrance and obstruct the working day with 50 of your mates, peacefully.

Time how long it takes the truncheons to come out and get back to us.

Northwind - Member
How does "they shall not pass" tally with that, was it the polis shouting it?

"all must rise to their feet, to defend the Republic, to defend the people's freedoms as well as their achievements towards democracy!" You can't just translate the words.

I'm not seeing how that supports your case, at all.

seosamh77 - Member

So they were there to block the polis?

I'm not seeing how that supports your case, at all.

OK, I don't know how much you know about the history here, so it's hard to judge a response without risking being patronising. But since you're taking it so literally, it feels like you might just lack the context. And the Spanish do not lack the context- the siege of madrid, one of the final stands of the republic, came right after the capture of catalonia by Franco.

So when you're on your way to vote, in a referendum the government says you can't have, and you discover the police are closing down polling booths and blocking people from voting, no pasaran does not just mean "they will not pass".

I understand the history well enough, I'm well aware of the context of no pasaran. The history has bugger all relevance to this despite how much some people would like it to.

I already asked people to give some examples that show franco-ism and the current spanish government are parallels, or I'll accept even close to being as such, I even gave the example of the white terror for people to have a reference.

Still waiting on those parallels.

Just because some want to make a connection, doesn't mean it exists.

seosamh77 - Member

The history has bugger all relevance to this

Honestly I think that's just absurd, it's like saying ww2 has no relevance to brexit because nobody's running a death camp. The very fact that they're out there chanting "no pasaran" says the history has relevance.

piemonster - Member
...Why do you ask, looking for a precedent?

Not at all. Gandhi got it right that meeting an evil with more evil simply grew the evil threefold. It also leaves a suppurating sore for the next several generations. We just have to look at our own govt's 'achievements' in NI to see that.

I thought that the tendency these days was peaceful, but with vigorous debate.

The Catalans have been met with violence and the people promoting a peaceful means have been driven out of the country, and will be arrested if they return.

So the control exerted by leaders who believed in peaceful means no longer exists, thus it's likely some folk in Catalonia are asking my exact question right now.

Northwind - Member
it's like saying ww2 has no relevance to brexit because nobody's running a death camp.

I'm being absurd? Planet you on? 😆