[Closed] Give Barcelona a miss this weekend!

Km79 makes a good point.
There's also Rajoys repeated refusal to engage in any negotiations despite 15 offers from the Catalan government.

That's indefensible in my opinion.

Perhaps, but legally sound tbh.

Secondly the support for independence seems to have grown from a decision by Spanish courts to rewrite large parts of the Catalan constitution which was adopted by referendum in 2006.

This referendum was noted for its voter turnout being below 50%

They do seem to have a problem mobilising the majority of the people.

btw, I'm aware I sound like I'm against catalan independence, I'm not at all, this just seems fairly weak to me, and it's all quite clearly illegal. So I don't agree with it on that basis, not the prospect of catalan independence.

Similarly, I don't support illegal means to achieve scottish indepedence. We aren't colonised states, unilateral declarations and claptrap about oppression are extremely manipulative and fairly transparent populism.

km79 - Member
Is that the entire basis? bit weak, no?
You don't think going against the democratic will of the people is oppressive enough?

I think they need to get over the hurdle of the Spanish constitution that they sign up for firstly.

They are currently ignoring that entirely, which is what makes their actions illegal.

I think they need to get over the hurdle of the Spanish constitution that they sign up for firstly.

That's democracy init. in 2001 no-one was believing the brits would allow a scottish referendum. Just need to keep chipping away.

Many can't see how the scots will be allowed another referendum, but they will, eventually.

Will the French Catalans get uppity as well?

This referendum was noted for its voter turnout being below 50%

They do seem to have a problem mobilising the majority of the people.

Yeah - having the police handing out beatings can have that effect.

It's pretty naive to think that sedition won't illicit a violent response from the authorities.

It's pretty naive to think that a violent response from the authorities won't affect voter turnout.

It's pretty naive to think that an illegal referendum won't affect voter turnout.

How dare folk break the law in order to get to vote.

I agree it's a silly route to democracy, particularly when the veracity of the vote can't really be verified either.

What would you suggest then?

Keep chipping away and continue to build a convincing majority, without the oppression claptrp. Western european nations won't be able to withstand that for long.

Their majority isn't convincing at the moment.

They'll also need to figure out someway to force constitutional change(Rajoy isn't the man to do that obviously, but he won't be in charge forever.)

Also, nationalism in a western European context isn't worth going outside the law over.

Will the French Catalans get uppity as well?

Don't think so I have friends there. They're proud of their Catalan identity and think of themselves as Catalan. There is support for the language and demand for Catalan medium education, but not for independence from France.

Keep chipping away and continue to build a convincing majority, without the oppression claptrp

Here in País Vasco the EAJ (Basque Nationalist Party) have done exactly that. Chipping away more and more autonomy from the spanish state whilst retaining a 'respectable' conservative stance. There's little appetite these days for independence as a result - a lot of young people here just want a Basque internacional football team!

This all Seems to be conveniently shifting focus away from addressing rather important issues of corruption in the government...

If the proposed elections in Catalonia go ahead at all it will be interesting to see what form they take.
1 Will pro independence parties be allowed to participate ?
2 If they are allowed to take part will they do so or will they boycott it?
3 If there is a boycott resulting in a turn out similar to the referendum on the 1st of October will Madrid consider the result valid while pro Indy parties claim the result is invalid.
4 How will Madrid ensure that there is no intimidation of pro independence voters given the conduct of the Guardia Civil and the National Police in the last few weeks?

1 & 2, good questions I'd imagine, can't see them not allowing representation though? No idea mind you? Saying that, Pudgemont and others, must be looking at charges(perhaps the point of this btw, seems to want to martyr himself)?

3 & 4, a boycott doesn't really work when the election is legal, the polis won't really need to be there apart from usual numbers, they aren't trying to stop it.

The Spanish Consitution was written shortly after the end of a repressive right wing dictatorship which had itself come to power through a bloody and divisive civil war. A majority of the Catalans and Basques supported the (losing) left wing side in the civil war, and Franco punished them for it, including suppressing their languages and cultures.

It's not suprising that after the death of Franco, and given the uncertainty surrounding the future and the risk of another civil war or right wing coup by the military like [url= https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/23-F ]this one[/url] or [url= https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1982_Spanish_coup_d%27%C3%A9tat_attempt ]this one[/url], that a majority voted for the new constitution to commit Spain to being a democracy and to bind the country together.

However, with the passage of time the situation changes. In the aftermath of dictatorships there is often an amnesty for the criminal actions of those who were in power (or a tacit acceptance by many people not to prosecute them), in order not to threaten a fragile democracy, but later when the democracy and its insitutions are stronger those criminals are often finally arrested and prosecuted, e.g. Serbia, Chile and Argentina.

In the same way, it's not surprising that a significant percentage of Catalonians now feel the time is right to assert a desire for independence, or at least a referendum on the issue. If their political representatives win a majority in their regional parliament, it is undemocratic for the central government to use the constitution as a trump card to permanently block that, and effectively insist that the constitution means that everything is set in stone for time immemorial and can never be revisited. That itself is just another dictatorship; only this time it's the democratic form: a dictatorship of the minority by the majority.

Moreover, Rajoy and his right wing government, which has been mired in a major corruption scandal and which is the inheritor of the support that did exist in Spain for Franco, are probably the worst people to have in power in this situation. The issue has given them an opportunity to exploit the situation for narrow party and individual political gain, since they can use it to drum up support from the majority of Spanish who do not want the country split.

Point about q4 is the Guardi/National Police are there and there's no sign of them being ordered to leave. I hope I am wrong but I'll be very surprised if they leave before any election . Their presence itself could be intimidating.

As is crowds of Catalan nationalists and Spanish nationalists on the streets to both sides. Just a consequence of stoking nationalist tendencies.

The polis just being there isn't validation of intimidation, some would be there regardless. If there's an over bearing presence at polling stations and direct or indirect interference fair do's, don't see it though. I doubt they'll be given instruction to coerce voters.

your first 2 points are the more interesting ones.

It's not only the Catalan nationalists who object to the Guardia Civil being there but many Catalans who do not support independence as well. The Guardia have since 1978 taken a lower profile roll in Catalonia due to their strong association with Franco.

I know, I don't really need history lessons. They are there as a direct result of current actions though.

I'm pretty sure the catalan leaders are perfectly happy to have associations with the memories of franco, so I doubt too many of them will be privately wishing them away..

Here endeth the history lesson.Agree that both sides are playing to their own gallery to some extent.

Will the French Catalans get uppity as well?

Not from what I hear, the Corsicans however ....

seosamh77 - Member
epicyclo, what's the point you are making there, that the Catalans should go to war over this?

how should they take it?

seems pugdemont will be able to take part in the elections.

seosamh77 - Member
how should they take it?

They have. They are an independent country now. The question is can they hold it.

What happens now is up to Spain which is now a foreign potential aggressor.

Here's what the UN had to say about this issue:

[i]“...The right of self-determination is a right of peoples and not a prerogative of States to grant or deny. In case of a conflict between the principle of territorial integrity and the human right to self-determination, it is the latter that prevails...."[/i]

They have.

You can keep posting stuff like that, it doesn't make your point relevant in the slightest.

Which of the UN member states has recognised this Catalan state?

None.

Reality trumps hyperbole, everytime.

Here's that full statement by your man, Alfred-Maurice de Zayas, UN independent advisor. He's just an independent advisor, he doesn't speak for the UN.

http://www.ohchr.org/EN/NewsEvents/Pages/DisplayNews.aspx?NewsID=22295&LangID=E

They are an independent country now.

Somaliland is much further down this road and the UN doesn't recognise them, nor does anyone else.

seosamh77 - Member
...Which of the UN member states has recognised this Catalan state?...

In a democracy sovereignty comes from the people, not from God, a monarch, or another state.

If the Catalan people say they are independent, that is their sovereign right.

What the practicalities of it are is another matter.

So if I declare myself Independent, then a rather small, brand new state has just come into being?

epicyclo - Member
seosamh77 - Member
...Which of the UN member states has recognised this Catalan state?...

You are taking this from a feudal point of view in which your existence is determined by a superior power.
In a democracy sovereignty comes from the people, not from God, a monarch, or another state.

If the Catalan people say they are independent, that is their sovereign right.

What the practicalities of it are is another matter.

So basically, you'd be happy if alex salmond stood on the steps of the scottish parliament, waved a flag, declared independence, then went for a pint? 😆

In a democracy sovereignty comes from the people, not from God, a monarch, or another state.

The practicalities of the existence of that state are a fair bit more important for me. The declaration and jubilation part are pretty much irrelevant.

@imnotverygood Yes. What currency will you use?
How will you pay for your pension? How will you trade with your neighbouring countries? Will you or will you not apply for EU membership?
Are you aware that the sky will fall on your head if you do proclaim independence?

If the Catalan people say they are independent, that is their sovereign right.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passport_to_Pimlico

seosamh77 - Member
...The practicalities of the existence of that state are a fair bit more important for me. The declaration and jubilation part are pretty much irrelevant...

gordimhor - Member
@imnotverygood Yes. What currency will you use?
How will you pay for your pension? How will you trade with your neighbouring countries? Will you or will you not apply for EU membership?
Are you aware that the sky will fall on your head if you do proclaim independence?

Valid points, but that is Catalonia's problem to work out.

@imnotverygood Yes. What currency will you use?
How will you pay for your pension? How will you trade with your neighbouring countries? Will you or will you not apply for EU membership?
Are you aware that the sky will fall on your head if you do proclaim independence?

I shall declare war on a neighbouring state to take the population’s mind off the practical problems.

Will you bring back National Service then?

You may have to conscript yourself or you could refuse to serve and then lock yourself up for treason.

The history is fascinating but what's happening today is fundamentally a conflict between democracy and law, with people deciding which side of that conflict is more important.

Fairly few of the great moments of democracy were legal- Rosa Parks was breaking the law, the chartists were breaking the law, practically all of the spring of nations was illegal. Most of the things we take for granted were taken for us by lawbreakers.

The law can be an ass, or a weapon, or a jackboot and sometimes it can be changed through legal channels but other times it should be ignored or overthrown. And as long as you take a line "the law is absolute, too bad for you" you make ignoring it or overthrowing it a reasonable action.

Comparisons with Scotland are really only interesting inasmuch as they show exactly how you prevent illegal or unreasonable actions from a seccesionist movement. Not with rubber bullets but with laws that work for the people.

Fairly few of the great moments of democracy were legal

Mandela and Gandhi both spent time in jail. The Tienanmen square protest was made illegal when the Chinese government declared martial law. Spain hasn't reached that point yet but arguments based on respect for the law have limited legitimacy particularly when the law enforcement officers show little respect for the law themselves.

imnotverygood - Member
I shall declare war on a neighbouring state to take the population’s mind off the practical problems.

For some practical tips, there's a 1959 film "The Mouse that Roared". Starring Peter Sellers, so probably still funny. 🙂

Some of these comparisons are daft. The primary motivation for the Catalan independence is for rich people to get richer, by dropping their poorer relay. Hardly honourable. Certainly not a freedom movement in the Rosa Parks sense.

I agree csb. Pretty ridiculous tbh.

If independence is as easy a getting a few people together to vote. Well carry on, but you are looking at a walled Europe in 50 years time. That'll be fun.

I'm quite up for supporting oppressed minorities, this is something altogether different. Imo. Manipulated nationalism.

Agree csb this is the wealthy part of spain showing two fingers to the rest of their fellow countrymen, no sympathy from me.

Imagine westminster refusing to fund any other part of the UK.

csb - Member
Some of these comparisons are daft. The primary motivation for the Catalan independence is for rich people to get richer, by dropping their poorer relay. Hardly honourable. Certainly not a freedom movement in the Rosa Parks sense.

The other side of your statement, is it honourable for Spain to seek to retain Catalonia so it can suck it dry?

Catalonia has a history of trying to regain its independence. This is not something that has just cropped up.

The other side of your statement, is it honourable for Spain to seek to retain Catalonia so it can suck it dry?

Are the Catalans the poorest people in Spain?

piemonster - Member
Are the Catalans the poorest people in Spain?

In any case, it's irrelevant to their decision to be independent.

it's irrelevant

Not to your loaded and biased response it isn’t.

their decision to be independent.

Which is a decision yet to be genuinely taken, albeit by unacceptable means from Madrid. Unless your up for a minority of the electorate taking decisions for all. Remind of your thoughts on the Westminster electoral system?

Catalonia is the richest region in Spain. Which makes it understandable for the remainder of the nation to want to retain them. Suck them dry? They're doing pretty well regardless of their contribution to the rest of the nation.

Epicyclo, you ask if Spain's efforts to retain Catalonia are honourable. If we accept that by Spain, we mean the government on behalf of the residual population then yes, it's honourable for them to champion their interests in keeping the wealthiest of their fellow citizens paying into the communal pot. Tax the rich to benefit the poor.

csb - Member

The primary motivation for the Catalan independence is for rich people to get richer, by dropping their poorer relay.

What do you base that on? Is it this?

csb - Member

Catalonia is the richest region in Spain

Because it's only true if you ignore population. GRP per capita is the sensible metric and it places Catalonia 4th, after the Basque country, Madrid and Navarre. The only thing that makes Catalonia "richer" is their relatively high population, not their wealth or incomes.

I assume you have detailed info on what drives the independence movement, and it clearly shows that the main motivator is for the rich to get richer?

I assume you have detailed info on what drives the independence movement, and it clearly shows that the main motivator is for the rich to get richer?

I’d actually appreciate it if you shared a few insightful links please?

csb - Member
Epicyclo, you ask if Spain's efforts to retain Catalonia are honourable...

You raised the question in the first place.

It is irrelevant to whether or not the Catalonian people are entitled to self-determination.

piemonster - Member
'it's irrelevant'
Not to your loaded and biased response it isn’t.

Which bit offends your biases?

Your bias offends my bias, which in turn offends my own bias thus creating a perpetual energy source of offence.

If only I knew how to harness it I could live off grid free from energy bills.

Some of these comparisons are daft. The primary motivation for the Catalan independence is for rich people to get richer, by dropping their poorer relay. Hardly honourable. Certainly not a freedom movement in the Rosa Parks sense.

This - should London secede from the UK?

Northwind misses the point, Catalonians may not be as rich as they think they are - but one of the main drivers was the feeling that they were propping up the rest of the country.

As CSB said, hardly honourable.

Catalan independence is for rich people to get richer,

BTW I should clarify that I don't actually agree with this. As tbh UDI is not a vote for Catalans to get richer it's a vote for Catalans to get poorer and more isolated. The numbers don't particularly stack up that Catalonia is so much richer that the other regions, it's a wee bit more than some, but it's hardly London levels...

My disagreement largely come from the idea that i don't think there is an acceptable majority, and if they do achieve a slim majority, I think that that would have been achieved by fairly dubious manipulated nationalist means and could well change again in short order.

I accuse people of viewing this through a Scottish prism, I'm absolutely doing the same thing, I don't think a Scottish 50%+1 is valid enough either. I think the Scottish government should govern and come back to the question when they think they can achieve a 65/70% vote, based on their record in government. Not how people emotionally react to a flag being waved.

I honestly don't believe these questions should be decided on simple, precarious, majorities.

I believe that normalising 50%+1, based on the idea that anyone can form a group and break away is an incredibly dangerous precedent to make. It's a recipe for more borders, not less, Something I'm absolute against (more borders). (Yes I do get that there's a bit of hypocrisy there in supporting Scottish independence, but I believe SI is outward looking eough in that respect, it's not particular SI or CI where I have these criticisms, just were I can see the normalisation of acceptance of 50%+1 going if it's widely accepted..)

I do agree that equating Catalan or Scottish nationalism to Rosa Parks is utterly ridiculous though, and is a perfect example of nonsensical emotional manipulation.

piemonster - Member

I’d actually appreciate it if you shared a few insightful links please?

Tell you what, let's see if CSB can provide anything to back up his suggestion- I haven't made any claims, I'm saying his is bobbins.

The modern catalan independence movement dates back to Franco, and the current escalation can fairly be said to have started in 2010 when Spain overturned parts of the Statute of Autonomy For Catalonia- which had been passed in law, by referendum, and by the national government.

seosamh77 - Member

I do agree that equating Catalan or Scottish nationalism to Rosa Parks is utterly ridiculous though, and is a perfect example of nonsensical emotional manipulation.

It would be ridiculous- I didn't do any of that though. Hmm, if doing it would be nonsensical emotional manipulation, what would it be if someone pretends it's been done?

The Chinese have got the right idea when it comes to secessionist movements - round up the leaders and put them in front of firing squads.

What next, counties as sovereign states? Rural militia? Free movement within your own country curtailed because the Welsh hate the English? Because Yorkshiremen hate southerners?

The end result of local secessionist movements will be less global social mobility and more inequality.

Catalonians may not be as rich as they think they are - but one of the main drivers was the feeling that they were propping up the rest of the country

Have they been whining on about their oil too? 😉

Thought Anthony Beevor was good on Marr this morning and hope he is correct. Must download his book as I am very ignorant on Spanish history.

Amazing tines - to have several cases of major constitutional and democratic issues where opinions are so polarised and yet balanced at the same time. Brexit, Catalonia, US...,.and some other minor ones too

It would be ridiculous- I didn't do any of that though. Hmm, if doing it would be nonsensical emotional manipulation, what would it be if someone pretends it's been done?

What's the relevance of bringing her up or Emily Pankhurst, or Mandela?

Those things all have legitimate oppression as their motivation, this doesn't.

The relevance should be clear from my post- democracy and the law have often been in conflict, and without the willingness to break laws that constrain democracy, sometimes it's impossible to progress. None of that means equating them as causes, but the dilemma is the same.

And when it comes right down to it, it's not really about legality at all; laws can be changed, but they won't be because Spain controls the laws and Spain won't allow it. So it's about power.

Fair enough, still don't really get the relevance of the given examples though, i don't think the dilemma is the same, the given examples have cause for unlawful resistance.

Nationalism based on not much else beyond nationalism isn't valid cause for unlawful action to my mind.

The point of referring to Parkes, Pankhurst etc is to show that it is possible for laws to be wrong.
The UN gives all peoples the right of self determination. Catalans have been prevented from exercising that right by the Spanish government. The Catalan government has (according to my pro Indy Catalan friends) approached the Spanish government for talks 15 times and had no response. Iagree the illegal ref didnt show a clear majority for independence, but What else were they to do given that all legal avenues seem to be closed to them.

As I've mentioned before, who believed in 2001 the British government would allow a Scottish referendum?

None of the 193 UN states has recognised this declaration of independence, so no, the UN doesn't give all people the right to self determination.

seosamh77 - Member

Nationalism based on not much else beyond nationalism isn't valid cause for unlawful action to my mind.

Where do you draw that line? Exactly how much oppression is required before you can act? Kinder Scout? Why is "nationalism" different from "exercising your democratic will"? It seems like 2 different names for the same thing, one positive and one negative.

seosamh77 - Member

As I've mentioned before, who believed in 2001 the British government would allow a Scottish referendum?

Essentially everyone, considering we'd previously had 2 referendums on devolution and the Scottish Executive had just been funded, partly as an attempt to sate the desire for Scottish home rule.

Where do you draw that line? Exactly how much oppression is required before you can act? Kinder Scout? Why is "nationalism" different from "exercising your democratic will"? It seems like 2 different names for the same thing, one positive and one negative.

Some oppression would be good for starters. Not getting your way when you spit the dummy isn't oppression. You work within existing power structures until you can change it. The democratic structure exists and is entirely valid, you need to work with in that if you want to change it.

In lieu of legitimate reasons to go out side the law you work within it. Nationalism really isn't that important.

Essentially everyone, considering we'd previously had 2 referendums on devolution and the Scottish Executive had just been funded, partly as an attempt to sate the desire for Scottish home rule.

Nonsense.

But lets go back further, who thought Scotland would get a referendum in 1977?

seosamh77 - Member

Nonsense.

Oh go on, back that up. That's as convincing a statement as the earlier "Catalonians want independence to make rich people richer"

PS,

oppression
??pr??(?)n/
noun
noun: oppression; plural noun: oppressions

prolonged cruel or unjust treatment or exercise of authority.

Clearly the Catalonian indepence movement would say they're subject to a prolonged, unjust exercise of authority.

Northwind, you asked for evidence of my assertion that economic gain is the primary motivation behind the Catalan independence movement. I based this view on uk media so I spent the last hour reading various articles and papers on the issue and I didn't need to dig at all for reams of comment from within the movement on the unfairness of taxation etc. I accept that nationalism for its own sake appears to be an equally prominent motivator.

And to pick up on your 'gdp is a fairer measure of wealth' comment, maybe so, but the Catalans would be leaving as a region so the absolute wealth of the region is a fairer measure of the loss it would cause to Spain.

csb - Member

Northwind, you asked for evidence of my assertion that economic gain is the primary motivation behind the Catalan independence movement. I based this view on uk media so I spent the last hour reading various articles and papers on the issue and I didn't need to dig at all for reams of comment from within the movement on the unfairness of taxation etc.

I see. And did you find any evidence of your assertion that making rich people richer is the primary motivation?

Oh go on, back that up.

You had about 25% support for independence in 2001, not even everyone of them would have though you'd had been allowed a vote. For the other 75% thoughts of independence weren't even on the radar.

Care to back up, "everyone"?

That's as convincing a statement as the earlier "Catalonians want independence to make rich people richer"

Catalan independence is for rich people to get richer,

BTW I should clarify that I don't actually agree with this.

I'm quoting from the UN

2. All peoples have the right to self-determination; by virtue of that right they freely determine their political status and freely pursue their economic, social and cultural development.

gordimhor - Member
I'm quoting from the UN

seosamh77 - Member

You had about 25% support for independence in 2001, not even everyone of them would have though you've had been allowed a vote. For the other 75% thoughts of independence weren't even on the radar.

I think maybe we're at crossed purposes but there's a difference between thinking a vote will happen, and thinking it'll not be allowed. The Scottish indepence movement, for as long as I've been an adult, has worked on the premise of getting a referendum from Westminster. In 2001, we didn't expect a referendum because we knew it was pointless, it'd have been a drubbing. But we expected that if it became the will of the scottish people, we'd have one.

In all my life, the only people I've found who thought that Westminster would never allow a referendum, were nutters.

North wind, yes I did, as I said, find a lot of evidence that economic gain was the primary motivator for many Catalans wanting independence.

[i]As you said[/i], you claim you found evidence that economic gain was a motivator- which it certainly is. But you didn't say you found any that it was the primary motivator, and you didn't say it was about "making the rich richer"

We're patient, we can wait a bit longer.

Northwind - Member
seosamh77 - Member
You had about 25% support for independence in 2001, not even everyone of them would have though you've had been allowed a vote. For the other 75% thoughts of independence weren't even on the radar.

I think maybe we're at crossed purposes but there's a difference between thinking a vote will happen, and thinking it'll not be allowed. The Scottish indepence movement, for as long as I've been an adult, has worked on the premise of getting a referendum from Westminster. In 2001, we didn't expect a referendum because we knew it was pointless, it'd have been a drubbing. But we expected that if it became the will of the scottish people, we'd have one.

In all my life, the only people I've found who thought that Westminster would never allow a referendum, were nutters.

I supported independence at the time, tbh I didn't think there would be a vote for it in my lifetime at the time, I thought the parliament we got would have curtailed the idea for a long time, but I still argued to my mates that we should vote on the basis of it. At the time I was distrustful of the SNP, so promoted the idea that we should vote the socialists as a protest vote, not purely for independence mind, but that was part of it. Part of the protest was just to show support of socialist ideas too, not that we actually thought socialists would achieve them, but that that vote may influence the thinking of the larger parties.

In the next 13 years, the support for independence didn't really change either, what changed was that the SNP just got increasingly better at manipulating the British government into allowing one, imo.

Tbh I don't actually think the Catalan separatists purposes here are actually to go ahead with UDI, as they must know that on the unilateral basis, it's doomed. I suspect this is all still part of their plan to manipulate the Spanish government into a vote. (The confrontational nature of it will also increase support for it too, imo, which I think is a tad suspect and potentially dangerous.)