[Closed] Give Barcelona a miss this weekend!

mogrim - Member
Juanca

I giggled! 😆

Northwind - Member
seosamh77 - Member
I think the spanish government would settle for a spain wide referendum

That'd be very magnanimous of them

Tbh the spanish response is entirely logical, if not sensible.

It's weird watching this from a scottish perspective, while everyone agrees they were overly heavy handed(calls of fascism are ridiculous btw), almost to a man there's support for the separistists from the separatists and support for the unionists for the unionists.

One would think they are using this to verify their own views.

Personally I think both the catalans and the unionists are at it. And tbh, I have some sympathy for the spanish view point. If the catalans are going to separate they need a bit more than a few people getting scudded about to justify it, ie they need a proper democratic mandate, which they don't have.

No it wasn't. Plenty of busses, reduced train service, and a few taxis running.

I meant locally to where I live. Not a single bar, shop, bakery, bus was open and the goods traffic seemed very quiet.Even the national chains such as Mercadona, Lidl etc closed around here. Can't speak for the bigger cities as I wasn't there.

ie they need a proper democratic mandate, which they don't have

scotroutes - Member
ie they need a proper democratic mandate, which they don't have
and are not allowed to have. The sensible approach would be for Madrid to agree to a proper referendum and to campaign in favour of union.

They need constitutional change for that to happen though, hence their insistence on respecting the constitution, ie they want to put the blame onto the spanish people as a whole, as they'll probably not ratify constitutional change.. as I say they are both at it.

What else are you meant to do when one side wants to negotiate change and one side doesn't as they are happy with the situation as is? Not a lot of options and I can't see a happy ending anytime soon.

I agree they are at an impasse, one side is going to have to back down.

I'm with Km 79. Both sides should get talking quick. Puigedemont has eased back a little by not declaring independence within 48 hours as he claimed he would. Rajoy should reciprocate. I believe both governments are seen to be corrupt by some people.

They're both at it, and it's a handy way to move the debate on from how corrupt their respective parties were. Are.

There are other advantages too: Rajoy can watch as the opposition tear themselves apart trying to decide whether to support the hardline PP approach (which is reminiscent of Franco, of course) or whether to get crucified by the right wing newspapers for supporting a democratic right to choose. Puigdemont is eating away at the local support for the other basically single issue parties. Win-win.

The head of the Mossos d'Esquadra is being investigated for sedition - 4 to 8 year sentence if found guilty.

Oil on troubled waters?

Certainly seems to be a powerful force making its way towards Catalonia. I'm apprehensive.

Please let this be true...

[img] :large[/img]

2nd biggest bank in Catalonia, is moving it's headquarters to Valencia, Caixabank, in talks to do same.
Spanish government obviously happy to assist, changing law making it easier for businesses to relocate.

Tourists not going to be visiting Barcelona, shops & businesses closed.

A vote that was looking 50/50 until rajoy sent the stormtroopers in, might lose support when it hits people's pockets, suppose it depends how much the Catalonians want it.

Briefing Room on R4 tonight had a good analysis of what would be required if they did actually split. They've gotta want it bad to go through all that!

I think they've shown some appetite Kimbers. Certainly going to be hard times if they go for independence, but how do Catalans feel staying in a country where they could be beaten by the police for trying to vote.

No idea if they want it that much tbh,

2 Catalan people in my work, one is furious with Spanish government but still doesn't want independence, other does want it, so 50/50 on my statistics 😉

Just wondering out loud so to speak, but with the way things are going just now both in Europe and in the USA could it be possible we will see countries splitting into two or more separate states but remaining as one country (as in shared space)?

It seems ridiculous even suggesting it, but there are some fundamental differences which are almost or close enough to 50-50 in terms of population split but not necessarily geographically. It may be preferable to have two or more systems within an overall system. Is this done anywhere now or has this ever been done before?

Watching the news it seems there are some pretty big companies ready to leave Catalunya in it tries to declare independence .

gordimhor - Member

how do Catalans feel staying in a country where they could be beaten by the police for trying to vote.

Or senior police can be threatened with jail for not being willing to beat people for voting. TBH I don't really understand how a western government survives this.

Banks and other companies have transferred their head office today .

I reckon you should send Fox and Davis to Barcelona................

Northwind - Member
TBH I don't really understand how a western government survives this.

I'd doubt the majority of spanish support catalan independence, plus come the GE it won't be an issue of in the memory of the general electorate.

Kimbers as we have discussed before Barcelona locals think there are too many tourists anyway. I’d be happy to visit to show my solidarity with the Catalonians. Good friends just showed their feelings on the matter by having their yacht stored there for the winter.

That police trap is hilarious, I hope it’s true 🙂

As for the banks saying they are moving regional “HQ” as a show of solidarity with the Spanish government who after all is their lender of last resort so understandable - well good luck to them. I am sure a run on them in terms of savers / account holders moving their accounts will focus their attention.

I'd doubt the majority of spanish support catalan independence.

This. The vast majority of Spanish are against Catalonian Independence.

As a comparison to Scotland I was against Independence but respected the fact that it was Scottish decsion as the PM and Parliament had sanctioned the Referendum. If Scotland did a UDI referendum I’d be much more likely to think FU as per the Spanish

seosamh77 - Member

I'd doubt the majority of spanish support catalan independence,

Do they support the idea of not smashing people's heads in for wanting to vote? This isn't something that splits along pro or anti independence lines. Next time I went to the polling booth I'd be remembering about the government that thinks votes are inconvenient, regardless of how I felt about Catalonia.

I mean, I understand that many people will think it's fine, because it's the other guy. But many will realise you might be the other guy next time. It's no different from that arsehole in the office that's always talking behind other people's backs- anyone with a clue realises that the arsehole does it about you, too.

you are 100 % right Jamba . the banks are moving their head office BECAUSE people are worried of independance and have started moving their savings out of Catalogna .

evidence here : http://www.lepoint.fr/economie/espagne-decret-pour-faciliter-le-transfert-du-siege-social-des-entreprises-catalanes-06-10-2017-2162594_28.php

sorry in french but I am sure your wife can translate it for you .

Do they support the idea of not smashing people's heads in for wanting to vote?

tbh, I reckon just about half of any country are rabid nationalists when push comes to shove. So I don't think a lot will view it with great horror and are more than willing to go along a certain level of violence(A lot won't obviously, but democracies aren't about consensus). Put it this way, if same thing happened in Scotland, England or Wales wouldn't be rising up at the next GE, or before(very few said boo during the bloody sunday murders for example.). (Also with a separatist movement many times smaller than the parent country, you're at a natural disadvantage there.)

Simple fact is governments will use violence when their sovereignty is threatened, from within or without, it's just default for any country, it's nothing new, and it's not something that's every going to change. Ultimately governments know they will have the support of their nationalist core.. tbh it's probably a vote winner in that respect. A lot will depend how it's all played out in the spanish media, I doubt they are pro-catalan.

cchris2lou - Member
the banks are moving their head office BECAUSE

of political games, if catalonia was sucessful in their UDI efforts (they won't be) the banks would be back.

Bullfighting is still a "Spectacular" in much of Spain and the bullfighters are heroes.

They see lots of things very differently here . . . .

Spanish ( and other banks ) need funding from the ECB , an independant catalogna would be out of the EU , and no more fundings from the ECB .

same thing as Brexit , tariffs on all the goods coming into Barcelona ports etc...

not as simple as it looks .

bump

the catalan president is addressing the parliament. warm words so far.

And he blinked first. Didn't unilaterally declare independence. Makes me wonder how much money the government has put into his secret Swiss bank account...

There were huge Pro Spain marches here over the last few days.

Seem to be a lot of companies ready to relocate if necessary. I guess they'd have to if they are Spanish companies and they suddenly find themselves "not based in Spain" anymore.

The Spanish government are mental. Surely if they suspend the Catalonian gov, there's only so long that the can govern directly before they need to call regional elections. In the meantime all they are doing is fostering bad will, which will ramp up ridiculously so if they send in the heavies again to maintain that rule.

The nationalists get voted back in, this time on the back of a stronger independence mandate. If they stop Pugdemont etc taking part in the elections, then calls of fascists start to looks seriously credible, so they can't do that.. well who know about that actually..

Mental. I could actually see Catalonia becoming independent out of this, pure stupidity on the part of Rajoy et al..

There [i]will[/i] be regional elections and as a result they will be a [i]de facto[/i] independence referendum. It's difficult to see where the Spanish Govt can go from there - refuse to recognise the result? Keep calling regional elections? Ban any political party in support of independence?

Only logical reason I can think of is that maybe the Spanish government are hoping for some kind of violent reaction from the catalans, that would give them the pretext to go hard at them. Long as the Catalans separatists don't bite, they have the moral high ground there. Particularly since Madrid threw the first punch.

Spanish government are hoping for some kind of violent reaction from the catalans

It does seem very provocative. I just can't see how imposing direct rule over one of the most rebellious regions in Europe will end well. This is how civil wars start. That may sound ridiculous in a developed western country but once the genie is out of the bottle it's difficult to put back. At the very least I can see a Northern Ireland scenario developing.

Good friends just showed their feelings on the matter by having their yacht stored there for the winter

#jambagold

😆 dunno how I missed that, brilliant!

don't see why the spanish government doesn't let them leave, then expel Barca Espanyol, Girona and the other teams in lower div from the spanish leagues so they can form their own league of about 10 teams. See how the mood changes after Barca have to play UE Llagostera 4 times a season, no Classico and Barca having to pre qualify for the champions league in July. Hoping that somehow some euro super league will come to their rescue.

[url= https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/oct/22/spain-calls-on-catalans-to-respect-decision-to-impose-direct-rule ]Well what a surprise.[/url] So if Puigdemont declares independence, what then? Freezing of Catalonian Assets? Arrests of politicians? Sanctions? Blockades? Tanks and troops on the street? The Greek debt problem could look like a walk in the park compared to this.

UDI then...

Shit just got real!

This isn't going to end well. Spanish Parliament was set to end devolved powers (today?) anyway so Catalan’s up the stakes.

At least we will have one country that likes us.

Well fancy that.

[img] [/img]

Really, what does anyone expect from a country who's last bout of republicanism lasted all of 2 years (1783-1785) and 5 years (1931-36?)? Considering the latest move and historical context, it's simply a matter of time before they end up with another dictator.

This? Well well... will it stick? Highly unlikely.

[url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-41780116 ]BBCNews Catalonia Independence vote..[/url]

I picked an interesting week to take a holiday in Barcelona. Although, apart from a couple of predictable places around government buildings and universities, it’s business as usual here. Traffic is still flowing, public transport works, and the bartender just bought me another beer by the pool.

Well I'm sitting outside Bar Backstabbers in the town main street sipping my cerveza and waiting on mi pizza.

I've landed in a place where I'm relatively wealthy due to taking advantage of the ludicrous South East UK housing situation and selling my lease for very silly money.

Given that Catalonia provides the Spanish state with a significant amount of tax Euros and a big part of the Alpujarras tax spend is on welfare, I'm wondering when the cracks will start to show in my immediate location.

On the other hand, there may be more tourism development in the wind.

Hasta Luego!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-41783238

UK 'won't recognise' Catalan independence.

Not particularly surprising.

Off to Barcelona tonight, wish me luck...

What [i]exactly[/i] are you expecting ?

Pickpockets.

I assume he hopes the airport is still open and the air traffic controllers still working

@seaso did you see the SNP’s responce 😉 .. it wasn’t exactly a condemnation “the people must be heard” ... tricky really these illegal referendums eh

kinda obvious they'd sit on the fence, though after this is done, they'll realise it's not even an option.

I think I put a few of my mates noses out of joint on one of my whatsapp chats for daring to ask why I should take sides in this.. And questioning the idea that support for an IS should automatically equate to other independence movements around the world.

Don't worry they're used to me, we'll no fall out over it! 😆

Please please please can the world just calm down FFS!

jambalaya - Member
@seaso did you see the SNP’s responce .. it wasn’t exactly a condemnation “the people must be heard” ... tricky really these illegal referendums eh

The overlord state always makes it so, then cries "but it's illegal" when people finally declare independence.

About time we did something about those illegal American rebels, eh? They keep embarrassing us every 4th of July.

Spain is a signatory to the UN, so has agreed to this:

[i]2. All peoples have the right to self-determination; by virtue of that right they freely determine their political status and freely pursue their economic, social and cultural development.

3. Inadequacy of political, economic, social or educational preparedness should never serve as a pretext for delaying independence.[/i]

I wonder how they square that off with their actions against Catalonia.

The overlord state

spain and the uk aren't overlord states. 😆

and the bartender just bought me another beer by the pool.and the bartender just bought me another beer by the pool.

Generous guy. He must be feeling flush.... 😉

I can imagine that Europe remains, but its states become smaller as populist movements grow.

There are calls for Bavaria to once again be an independent state.

South Tyrol has always had an uneasy relationship with Rome.

Like Catalunya, both of these regions provide the bill of tax revenue to the state, essentially propping up the poorer areas.

After the footage that emerged after the referendum, I kind of have all Catalunyans in mind whether they're pro-independance or not.

Yes, seems like a really shity situation for both a country and an area that I love.

I hope it all gets sorted with dialogue, hot heads not required.

Was at a meeting with some Catalan independence supporters today. They were all happy and quietly determined to make this a success in a peaceful manner. Tonight at least they're due a celebration. I wish them success.
Slainte mhor

Tonight at least they're due a celebration.

Celebrate what?

A referendum half the electorate ignored or failing to achieve any meaningful international support?

Until I’d confirmed control of the functions of the state, international legitimacy, and a genuine majority in a referendum I’d be celebrating precisely **** all.

1000 businesses have already moved their hq away from Barcelona .

[i]There are calls for Bavaria to once again be an independent state.

South Tyrol has always had an uneasy relationship with Rome.

Like Catalunya, both of these regions provide the bill of tax revenue to the state, essentially propping up the poorer areas. [/i]

Yeah - those pesky "poor parts of the country" are a real pain . . .

🙂

cchris2lou - Member
1000 businesses have already moved their hq away from Barcelona .

If there's money to be made, the gaps will be filled.

Not really. Being out of the EU would be devastating. Barcelone is one of biggest port in the EU.

As per my comments on the FB thread, its the Russians again.

Experts say the Kremlin has perfected not promoting a single candidate but instead finding divisive social issues including race, gun control, religion or gay rights to amplify. Eastern European, or Russian, troll farms and robotic accounts then use algorithms to make “emotional hot-button topics” trend across a country’s Internet space.

http://amp.washingtontimes.com/news/2017/oct/2/russian-interference-seen-catalonia-crisis/

The Americans are really bursting for their commie enemies back! 😆

why is the comparison here that catalunya = scotland
surely its a bit more like the south east finally deciding to ditch the pathetic weak regions of the uk, the only difference being london is the capital, whereas madrid is like manchester with an illusion of control

[url= https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4483/37275950934_753924de03_b.jp g" target="_blank">https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4483/37275950934_753924de03_b.jp g"/> [/img][/url]

@Piemonster They are well aware of what lies in front of them. Nevertheless the declaration of independence is a significant milestone in what has for some of them been a decade long campaign. So yes a short celebration is in order before the put their livelihood and possibly more on the line.

Doublepost

A lot seems to be made of how Catalonia is oppressed, can someone explain the basis of that?

epicyclo, what's the point you are making there, that the Catalans should go to war over this?

What are the parallels between colonial British rule and Catalonia as part of a democratic Spain state?

A lot seems to be made of how Catalonia is oppressed, can someone explain the basis of that?

Is that the entire basis? bit weak, no?

I wouldn't say that Catalonia has been terribly oppressed, but Spain did deploy the police to forcibly prevent people from voting. That's indefensible in my opinion.
Secondly the support for independence seems to have grown from a decision by Spanish courts to rewrite large parts of the Catalan constitution which was adopted by referendum in 2006.
[url= https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statute_of_Autonomy_of_Catalonia ]Statute of autonomy[/url]

Is that the entire basis? bit weak, no?