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I can't imagine this is going to end well.
Catalunya having their own "Brexit"
Link ?
No RyanAir flights ?
Is brexit now a synonym for any group of people trying to vacate or separate from another?
Shirley it’s a Catxit...
Surely it's catalindyref and no Brexit?
bikebouy - MemberShirley it’s a Catxit...
Spanxit has a better ring to it.
[url] http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-41439787 [/url]
Give Barcelona a miss this weekend!
I thought this was going to be more "I'd leave that a minute if I were you" about holiday tummy-shames following a dodgy Esqueixada
Can't you just light a match?
[img] 
[/img]
Is it time for a Freddie Mercury rendition of Barca’ ?
"It was like that when I went in" Honest!
It's funny, we've spoken to people from Catalunya who say it's nothing, just a minority of noisy people and we've spoken to Spaniards from the rest of the country who actually wish Catalunya would get on wth it and leave.
Interested to know how this is being reported outside Cataluña as local news is treating it as quite a good thing that citizens are allowed to exercise their right to vote. I spoke to a few people when we were in Asturias and they felt it was bad for Spain. The heavy handed reaction of Rahoy has served to strengthen the Si resolve whereas a few months ago the opinion was quite evenly balanced.
I was in central Barcelona yesterday and there was a big Guarda Civil prescence. Just to cap it all, I'm picking Mrs PB up on Sunday, again from Barca, she's flying with Ryanair!
I support any peoples right to self determination. The Catalans should be allowed a vote.
I hope it all ends peacefully.
PB - as far as I can tell, the coverage here in Aragon is "neutral". It's certainly the biggest story every day though. Well - this and the body they found in the dam!
gordimhor - Member
I support any peoples right to self determination. The Catalans should be allowed a vote.
I hope it all ends peacefully.
Well that's where the crux of the matter lies init. Are the Catalans a distinct and colonised people that the right to self determination is aimed at or are they a region simply trying to secede from a parent country, cause the concept of self determination on the latter there doesn't really exist, it certainly won't have other countries supporting you, and will need to be done via politics or war.
Though given that the right to self determination, in the context of colonised countries only really came about in a legal context in the 1960s. I guess the right of secession from a parent country is something that's really just waiting for a legal precedent.
Which will be quite a dangerous precedent tbh, as if you get the likes of capitals starting to decide they want to secede from a country on a simple 50%+1 vote and take all their wealth with them, hmm, that'll lead to fun and games in the future.
It's a complex question, so I don't think it should be an automatic right within existing and long established national entities. IMO it should be subject to negotiation and super majorities.
Next thing you know, Yorkshire will want independence!
If what I've read is true, Catalunya has been part of Spain for 800 odd years.
From what I read it is "peoples" who have the right to self determination. Trouble is there's no definition of "peoples" in international law.
Aye but it came about at at time when the colonies where all gaining independence, so I think from that you can ascertain that it's really just about support the disentangling of European colonialism as opposed to having the intention of sorting out Europe's internal politics.
Not that I'm against independence btw, I've obviously argued enough for SI on here. But like I say that should be done on a negotiated basis, and quite frankly, considering the brexit shambles, such questions being answered on a 50%+1 basis is utter nonsense and should never have been entertained, for that vote, or the previous SI vote.
Aye but the other thing about all those countries becoming independent, is that you can be pretty sure it was illegal to campaign for independence there too. Which kind of detracts from the argument about the Spanish constitution making the proposed referendum illegal. Though it is hard to see how any referendum on Sunday can possibly be held to any sort of international standard
National boundaries have been incredibly fluid throughout history. Why should we assume that the current political map of the world is the "right" one?
...if you get the likes of capitals starting to decide they want to secede from a country on a simple 50%+1 vote and take all their wealth with them...
That doesn't sound like a very likely scenario. The wealth of most capitals is dependent on the hinterland they control, and I don't think there have been a lot of cases of capital cities trying to escape their countries. London seemed quite keen to prevent Scotland leaving the UK during the Indy Ref campaign.
I don't think it is illegal to campaign for independence in spain?
It'll be illegal to hold a vote and act on in it without agreement with the Spanish government though. That's a different thing though that puts you in direct conflict with the parent country.
I met a few Catalans during our Indy ref. They were obviously on the Si side. They were hugely jealous of our ability to have a legal referendum.
I believe support for a referendum in Catalonia is much higher than support for independence.
kcr - Member
Why should we assume that the current political map of the world is the "right" one?
I don't. tbh i favour no borders.
They [b]were [/b]hugely jealous of our ability to have a legal referendum.
Aye [b]were[/b] jealous being the operative word there, there isn't any guarantee of another, the last yin that sturgeon bluffed got double bluffed by the general election, that flung everything up in the air in that respect.
That doesn't sound like a very likely scenario. The wealth of most capitals is dependent on the hinterland they control, and I don't think there have been a lot of cases of capital cities trying to escape their countries. London seemed quite keen to prevent Scotland leaving the UK during the Indy Ref campaign.
It's a simplistic example, but it's not beyond the realms of reality that if being able to change borders willy nilly becomes standard it'll result in some fairly interesting gerrymandering(or whatever the word would be in an international scale.)
don't think it is illegal to campaign for independence in spain?
Agreed
But if the government won't negotiate on the constitution there's no legal way to achieve independence.
That's politics for ye, you just need to keep chipping away. governments in democracies are transient.
tbh i suspect this stuff in spain is just that, ie just part of the catalan nationalist campaign to force a long term legally agreed ref. I doubt many would expect to declare UDI on the back of this one on the 1st.
I blame Wilfred the Hairy!
As with all these things, it boils down to money. The difference between what Cataluña pays to Madrid and what it gets back is claimed to be €16bn. Catalans complain that they subsidise major infrastructure projects in the poorer south, airports that are mothballed, roads to nowhere, housing estates that have never been lived in etc but suffer a lack of investment.
There's all sorts of rumours regarding what might happen on Sunday, I hope it doesn't end badly but wouldn't rule it out, there are a lot of hotheads about.
That's politics for ye, you just need to keep chipping away.
Exactly. Up here in País Vasco that's exactly what the PNV have done (Basque Nationalist Party). Slowly but surely won more autonomy, fiscal control etc from the spanish state until just about the only thing we're missing is a national football squad.
A referendum here would not be clear cut either but slowly slowly catchy monkey.
Seosamh
it's not beyond the realms of reality that if being able to change borders willy nilly becomes standard it'll result in some fairly interesting gerrymandering(or whatever the word would be in an international scale.)
Iam sure you know this has already bindun look at those lovely straight lines in the middle east.
considering the mess that was the spanish civil war, considering its really not that long ago franco died, considering the mess the the national right wing government has made of this since the summer its amazing this referendum dispute is so civil.
gordimhor - Member
Seosamhit's not beyond the realms of reality that if being able to change borders willy nilly becomes standard it'll result in some fairly interesting gerrymandering(or whatever the word would be in an international scale.)
Iam sure you know this has already bindun look at those lovely straight lines in the middle east.
aye, obviously created with a lot of concern for the local sensitivities those!
look at those lovely straight lines in the middle east.
Map lines are fascinating. As seen here;
[img] 
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Curves to the East formed to meet the range of the ship's guns on the river.
bob_summers - MemberA referendum here would not be clear cut either but slowly slowly catchy monkey.
went a wander to spain years ago, 2012 I think and got talking to an old boy in san seb about the various independence desires, we both reckoned they were each sitting somewhere around 50%ish. could go either way on any of them. Canny mind if the SI ref had been called by that point or it just looked like it was on the cards.
Rajoy was caught between a rock and a hard place - let the Catalans get on with it (and he'd probably win) but then he'd be crucified by his own party. So he went for the easy (and weak) option of using force to stop it.
If he'd had the cojones to have just ridiculed the stupidity of calling a referendum that will never go anywhere he'd have held the moral high ground, and won a majority. Now the Catalans are pissed off at Madrid telling them what to do, and who knows what will come of it.
Is brexit now a synonym
Isn’t it a verb, not a synonym? To brexit, to remove yourself needlessly from your peers.
Seems to me that the future is fewer, bigger countries or lots of relatively fluid, cooperative ones- more, better borders, more directly representative democracy. There's nothing magic or sacred about the size of any one country and pretending otherwise leads to friction at best, wars, all sorts of bad juju. Soft borders change the reality of countries in Europe massively.
And bringing brexit into a debate that's been happening for centuries years is the most brexity-little-britain thing I can imagine.
seosamh77 - MemberWell that's where the crux of the matter lies init. Are the Catalans a distinct and colonised people that the right to self determination is aimed at or are they a region simply trying to secede from a parent country, cause the concept of self determination on the latter there doesn't really exist,
Why not? A historical distinction makes things easier- nobody asks where the borders of an independent scotland would be- but it's not a prerequisite. In this case, Catalonia's a pretty well established region too but if Milton Keynes decides to go it alone, what does it matter if they were ever the Kingdom of Milltown and the Free Republic of Keens?
I'm not saying they can't be if they want to be, i'm just saying that it shouldn't be automatic and needs to be politically agreed. Or militarily, if that takes their fancy, wouldn't recommend that myself though.
They catalans did vote for the spanish constitution in 1978 btw, 95% yes, on a 67% turnout. So there is that square needing rounded.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_constitutional_referendum,_1978
btw only parallel with brexit i'm making is that 50%+1 is a crap way to settle questions of such magnitude.
lnobody asks where the borders of an independent scotland would be
Easy - like Lesotho but two enclaves; greater Dundee and Glasgow. Surrounded by rUk but with open and free borders
Now if someone had proposed that...
Is this an advisory "illegal" referendum or a real illegal referendum?
All for that thm! 😆 count me in! viva la republica de los estados de weegieville!
I think the former!
Why two enclaves thm?
Why not all four ?
People live in the other two Gordi??
Three are essentially one anyway. Outline looks a bit like Bermuda but without the money
Next thing you know, Yorkshire will want independence!
Don't be giving us ideas like that 😆
Yes I'd noticed that, people live all over Scotland. It's a bit like Catalonia that way
Any updates from locals?
Police seem to be "active" ?
What would be the wider implications of a full-bloodied secessionist shooting struggle in Catalonia, during the current European project ructions?
It seems a bit odd to me that they are bothering to blockade polling stations. After all, the Spanish Government have declared the referendum to be unconstitutional and it will be ignored.
Spanish government wants to minimise the turn out as huge demonstrations increase the support for Catalan independence.
tbh it seems like many people in catalunya want a referendum, about 70% going by reports I've read. Surely the sensible question on this should be: Should the spanish government allow a legally binding referendum on catalonian independence. yes or no?
Then once that comes back, let the spanish parliament deal with that. After that then cries of no democracy will start to have a bit of substance about them? (as currently it's too easy to point to the 78 vote and say look youse agreed with the constitution.)
dunno, I'm just speculating, I nothing about this tbh.
They are showing Pro Spain marches on the news this evening. Looks like there are lots of Spaniards living in Catalunya who want to remain Spanish.
This all sounds so familiar . . . .
Well it's getting a bit tetchy in our sleepy local village, the police have closed the school which is the polling station and a crowd has gathered chanting for democracy. Guess this is the situation in many other places as well.
Riot police dragging peaceful protesters away, elderly women with blood streaming down their faces - this is not going to end well.
Oh, and people in other parts of Spain who cheered the riot police when they headed off to Catalunya, and now singing Franco-era fascist songs.
Protesters throwing road work barriers at the police now.
Camera man running around trying to find an injured person to film. I imagine his producer shouting in his earpiece "we need blood, we need blood"
Local news reporting the Guarda Civil have cut internet connection to the vote hq, people seem to be able to vote but numbers seem low. Wonder what will happen to the ballot boxes when it's finished.
Why don't the Spanish government let it go ahead but say it's irrelevant and anybody who wants to stay part of Spain shouldn't vote in it. That way it would be a 100% Yes on a <50% turnout and the government could say fine, do that every weekend, we don't care, most people don't want to vote Yes.
If most people don't want to vote Yes then why not let it go ahead?
Why don't the Spanish government let it go ahead but say it's irrelevant and anybody who wants to stay part of Spain shouldn't vote in it. That way it would be a 100% Yes on a <50% turnout and the government could say fine, do that every weekend, we don't care, most people don't want to vote Yes.
Exactly. Like they did in 2014. National government seem to have gone from nothing to nuclear option in a fortnight this time.
If most people don't want to vote Yes then why not let it go ahead?
I think there's some nervousness about the accuracy of opinion polls these days
Hmm. Going out with work on Tuesday. I'm sure it'll be fine... 😐
Seems to me that the future is fewer, bigger countries or lots of relatively fluid, cooperative ones- more, better borders, more directly representative democracy.
I pretty much think this is inevitable. Whether the nationalists like it or not, the internet and increased mobility are resulting in the lines between countries and cultures being blurred to the point where national identity is a relic of history. Things like brexit and other independence movements are a reaction against centralised governments and the elites they represent. The nationalists are doing their best to use this as a vehicle for their own empowerment but they're swimming against the tide and will ultimately fail I think. Or at least I hope so.
Stupidity on all sides here. Government should take the approach above and disregard it. Campaigners should accept this but use less expensive approach to guaging opinion.
Campaigners should accept this
Campaigners: We want independence!
Government: No you can't.
Campaigners: Oh ok then.
???
Yes but trying to run a full scale referendum at huge public cost in the knowledge it has no legitimacy is nuts. That's not campaigning it's abusing power.
That's not campaigning it's abusing power.
As I understand it the Catalan govt were elected on a platform of providing a referendum. That is what they're doing. The fact that the Spanish govt refuses to allow this is largely irrelevant. The Spanish can either recognise the will of the people and allow a referendum, as the UK did with Scotland, or suppress it. If they choose the latter then they shouldn't be surprised if the Catalans defy them.
[quote=csb ]abusing power.
Like firing rubber bullets at people trying to put a cross on a piece of paper?
Presumably the use of rubber bullets if they're using them is legal despite being morally questionable? That's a separate issue.
You can be voted in on any ticket, but a mandate from the ballot box doesn't make something legal. The Catalans have been mislead.
csb - MemberThat's not campaigning it's abusing power.
Someone in this situation is abusing power. Is it the ones trying to suppress democracy? Or is it the ones trying to use it?
It's a strange idea of legitimacy you have. Democracy and legitimacy doesn't come from governments, it creates them.
Nothing like watching your friends and neighbours getting smashed in the head with police batons to swing undecided voters to the cause of national unity.
All Spain is going to achieve here is send out a message that if you want democracy you are going to need to fight for it.
So minoritiy interests (as the Catalans are in a national context) should be allowed to have a vote on anything in a restricted electorate, call it democracy, and expect it to be recognised?
Isn't the fairest way to allow all affected parties a vote on the issue, or none at all? How would that pan out in separatist/independence referenda?
csb - MemberIsn't the fairest way to allow all affected parties a vote on the issue, or none at all?
How do you feel about giving the EU a vote on whether the UK can leave?
No, what's fair about a majority over ruling the wants and needs of a minority who want to part ways?Isn't the fairest way to allow all affected parties a vote on the issue, or none at all?
[url= https://twitter.com/hussedogru/status/914424038214205440 ]Speaking of things that are illegal.[/url]
Can't see how the day doesn't end with serious injuries or worse.
<edit- literally posted the same video>
But it's definitely the Catalan government and the voters that are abusing their power by getting stamped on, thrown down stairs and dragged out of polling stations by their hair.
It's pretty humbling to see normal people facing this in order to vote, and remaining peaceful in the face of this- in europe, in 2017. The reasonable and proportional response is a riot. And of course the government already have their press releases loaded in the hope that they manage to provoke one.
I read earlier in the week that the local Catalan police force were sympathetic to the vote and would stand up and let it go ahead, the police brought in are from a different force (and higher level?) but I can't see any information on if the two police forces are at loggerheads.
If the national government wanted to courage separation they couldn't do a better job.
[url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-europe-41459688/police-use-batons-on-crowd-in-barcelona ]BBC video[/url]
Maybe not sympathetic but not prepared to kick the shit out of their own people to prevent a vote that probably would have meant little if it had gone ahead peacefully.
You have to wonder why the government didn't just encourage its supporters to boycott the it. The result would have been 99% in favour of independence and everyone would just laugh.
the police brought in are from a different force
It's worse than that, it's the Guardia Civil. This lot were formerly the paramilitary police loyal to Franco so are particularly hated in Catalonia. Sending them in to beat up peaceful pro-democracy protesters is going to end well isn't it? This is going to get ugly I fear. It would be seismic enough for a large western democratic nation to split peacefully (like the UK and Scotland would have been), But a violent and chaotic split would be a European-wide political crisis.
Today we are witnessing either the death of democracy or the birth of a new nation.
EU suspiciously quiet on the matter.
I doubt if there are any Guardia Civil from the Franco era but I take the point.