[Closed] Getting older musings - Dishwashers - why?

Hand washing uses mechanical action and surfactants, so is more environmentally friendly, gives desk-jockeys much-needed exercise and teaches humility and the virtues of hard work.

I prefer wringing my hands together on here and storing up enough frustration which gets converted into words than "do the washing up"

The Dishwasher does the hard stuff, so I can vent frustration on here..

Like many I reckon..

Next someone will be telling me that our clothes line uses more energy than a tumble dryer 😉

Pointless in our house. We got shot of it when we had a new kitchen fitted. There's only 2 of us & I can wash up, dry & put away everything after making/eating Sunday dinner, in less than 10 mins. We did however, leave the pipework in so that when we sell the house It'll be easy enough to re-install one.

I'd rather have the cupboard space.

“

Woah there!

There’s obviously a lot of people who give far more of a shit about washing up than I do.”

Ahh, so it’s really SLOB not SBOB 🙂

I’d rather have the cupboard space.

+1 & there's 5 adults in the house and a great cook too, wash up twice a day whilst spying on the neighbours

I like a bit of modern stuff. Living off the grid not for me.

You live in a weird world where you are considered off the grid if you don’t have a dishwasher.

Bodgy - sorry that’s proper minging. 🤮

I want 2 dishwashers in the kitchen so there's always an empty one to load dishes into when the other is working.

Clean benches, no stacks of dirty dishes.... 🙂

I’d rather have the cupboard space.

How is a dishwasher [i]not[/i] cupboard space?

You're all using them wrong. Dishwasher is the only way to clean chainings, deraillures etc...

that’s proper minging

I couldn't agree more. Not my DW, not my dog, not my photo.

@epicyclo - a couple I know has this arrangement - it totally totally rocks, especially when you've got twenty people around for a BBQ. They also have a wine cooler fridge thing. Boring, as I only drink red.

Well I've read the thread and think everyone contributing (to a dishwasher thread!) should have a long hard look at their lives, and a good think about what they're doing with it. That's everyone. Without exception.

Well johnx2, we can't all be Hollywood stuntmen, or bodyguards for MMA fighters... Discussing dishwashers is one of the more exciting aspects of my life.

Buy a decent enough one and they seem to work just dandy.

Lob dinner stuff in, take kids up for bath, dinner stuff clean approximately the same time as the kids are.

What's not to like?

That’s everyone. Without exception.

Now you've had a good think, what are your conclusions?

...my conclusions? That as in real life, not everyone's going to get deadpan. Smiley.

my conclusions? That as in real life, not everyone’s going to get deadpan

Quite so.

Conversely....what you actually need is 2 dishwashers. One to keep clean things in, one to put dirty things in. Alternate every 24h. You then don't need a crockery cupboard and avoid all the double handling.

They're great for poaching salmon.

But they're shit at washing pots. Plus you can't stand there listening to the radio, enjoying the peace and quiet while you're washing pots, while the rest of the family are in the other room watching Ant n Dec.

Also there's an environmental cost of the electricity, the manufacture, transportation, eventual disposal (when you realise it's shit and throw it out), etc etc.

Load of rubbish, dishys.

But they’re shit at washing pots. Plus you can’t stand there listening to the radio, enjoying the peace and quiet while you’re washing pots, while the rest of the family are in the other room watching Ant n Dec.

The problem there is your family, not your dishwasher.

I fitted a new kitchen last year - 2 dishwashers! I was lucky to have enough space to keep the old one as well as the new one, for Sunday Roasts, parties, Xmas and BBQ’s. The old one also doubles as a Bike part washer!

i don’t regret it for a minute.

rone- has it occurred to you that the fast eco wash won’t be reaching temperatures that you can’t touch? 😉

Terrahawk ...you may wish to make alternative plans this weekend ...based on your family viewing / radio playing / washing pots scenario..

Is there something else they can watch ?

Been following with interest.....

two things always seem to come up

don't leave dishwashers running overnight; tempting (and low risk) as it is, it is an avoidable risk, they do go wrong and the results can be catastrophic. My mate and his wife only just got out after theirs caught fire, and their house was gutted. The fire brigade recommend you don't do it, I'm just passing that on.

and second (and once again) - there's a technical report on the water usage of HDW vs MDW mentioned above and if you don't like the results, the response seems to be 'well, who commissioned the study? Of course they'd say that!'  As a scientist myself, I'm constantly frustrated by the generation of folks with an opinion and an internet connection who can pass off opinions and bad science as fact, and then when countered simply say 'well you would say that'.  Just out and call me a liar to my face. Scientists don't make stuff up, they are in general an honest bunch and those that do make shit up get found out pretty quick. And they can't use 'well you would say that, you work for them' as an answer in those cases.

FWIW RB make huge volumes of hand dishwash liquids too, mainly for overseas markets admittedly (because Fairy have the market cornered in the UK) but to claim they'd make up the data to support MDW if it wasn't true is wrong.

I would agree with OP that dishwasher do not work that well in a work scenario but neither does hand washing as no one can be bothered to do it right

At home there is no contest in time and efficiency. Ours goes on every night or every other night, stuff doesn’t need rinsing off before it goes in it just works

Do people not realise how much water it takes to hand wash ?

Time to stand up and be counted, take the plunge, and nail my colours to the mast.

To the one kitchen two dishwashers crowd I can only say: two kitchens no dishwashers. Have that... These are my principles. (If you don't like them, I have others...)

Surewe had our dishwasher years, early optimism becoming disillusion and ages poking bits of rice out of holes in rotors, and arguments over stacking techniques. Until my wife had had enough. Now I'm the dishwasher (unless the kids are home) and feeling somewhat vulnerable as I don't want to go to the dump.

Family of 5 here and if I had my way I would have 2 so I could unload one as needed and fill the other one. That way I would avoid all the who's turn it is to unload the dishwasher arguments with kids.

Family of 5 here

By my calculations then you've got three dishwashers

By the time I've scraped and rinsed the plate ready for stacking in the washer, I guess there is an extra 5-10 seconds or less per item involved in actually washing it and sticking it on the drainer. If you stick a bit of hot water in the bottom of a pan as soon as it comes off the stove, that won't take that much longer.

I do wonder how the actual cost per wash works out over the lifetime of the machine vs hand washing.

I have used one in a couple of houses I've owned, but I'm happy to be a luddite in this regard.

Maybe I missed it, but all I've seen is people talking about water usage. What about electricity consumption to heat the dishwasher up to dry everything?

I used to agree with you OP, but now I've got kids you'd have to prise it from my cold, dead hands.

What about electricity consumption to heat the dishwasher up to dry everything?

What about it?  Got a comparison between heating the extra water for hand washing vs the energy usage of a dishwasher? I'm keen to know - without that, this is just whataboutery literally.

By the time I’ve scraped and rinsed the plate ready for stacking in the washer,

I never do this. My dishes are clean.

benp1

Subscriber

Maybe I missed it, but all I’ve seen is people talking about water usage. What about electricity consumption to heat the dishwasher up to dry everything?

What about all the extra energy you spend washing your tea towels?

On the eco side of things my understanding is modern dishwashers do use a little less energy and water - or at least modern ones do.  YOu still have to factor in the carbon cost of making them and disposing of them  However the detergents used in dishwashers and rinse aid and so on are very polluting compared to hand wash detergents so over all considering all the factors hand dish washing is probably more environmentally friendly depending which of the sins you consider worst and how much water and detergent you use when handwashing and also if yo use low pollution detergents

who uses tea towels?  air dry is much cleaner.  Tea towels are germ havens

The final rinse is very low volume with very hot water, and then 'drying' occurs as a result of the rinse aid allowing the water to sheet off the plates and glasses in a continuous film - so a dishwasher doesn't in effect dry the articles at all, the rinse aid stops them from being wet if that makes any sense.

That's why plastics often come out wet and spotty, plastic has a different surface tension to glass and ceramics and so a rinse aid that works well on those (with surface tension matched to them) won't be as well matched to plastic.

Again, I wouldn't care if my dishwasher used a whole bathtub of water, sapped the national grid for an hour and killed all the fish within a 15 mile radius. I am not doing washing up by hand.*

.

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*please accept that this is a [i]slight[/i] exaggeration.

However the detergents used in dishwashers and rinse aid and so on are very polluting compared to hand wash detergents

Cite please. Since phosphates were effectively banned in auto dishwash if anything I'd suggest that higher alkalinity / mineral based auto detergents are better for the environment than oil derived high surfactant hand dishwash liquids.

Particularly making note that using single dose detergents in MDW delivers broadly the 'right' amount each time, whereas 'everyone' overdoses on HDW liquid (look how much Nanette Newman used to be able to do with a single bowl - as a rough rule you've run out of cleaning power when there's no foam left in your bowl, if you've got foam left after you've finished then you've wasted detergent)

tjagain

Member
who uses tea towels? air dry is much cleaner. Tea towels are germ havens

Yes, that's why you wash them regularly. Hence my comment on how much energy is wasted doing so.

Air drying assumes you have enough space to store a full load of washing up while it dries.

I'm really puzzled by all this scraping and rinsing going on - do you just put food on your plates so that you can look at it and then throw it away afterwards?

I must admit that dishwasher threads always perplex me.  I can understand why some people might prefer a 2x set up over a triple or whatever, or why you might not like drop handlebars etc etc. Personal taste  or the type of riding you do and all that. However to me  a dishwasher is just a no brainer, this from someone who was resistant to getting one initially. It just works & I just  can’t understand how people seem to have such issues. Is it the type of cooking you do? The hardness of the water? For me the stuff goes in dirty & comes out clean. It is a massive labour saving device & is much simpler, cleaner and more convenient than doing it by hand.

Jonv - "my understanding"  No citations - just what I have picked up over the years and if you can refute it then please do.

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I’m really puzzled by all this scraping and rinsing going on – do you just put food on your plates so that you can look at it and then throw it away afterwards?

Never eat pork or lamb chops?

Never eat ribs?

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Air drying assumes you have enough space to store a full load of washing up while it dries.

Not all of us have been so selfish, or Catholic, to overbreed. A "full load" for two people is easily held on the drainer.

Might be something in that, vegetarian household here.

We have two drainers.  Wash the first load and stack it let it drip while washing the second load, swap racks etc etc.

If you are using teaa towels and don't wash them after every use then you are simply smearing bugs all over the clean dishes

A “full load” for two people is easily held on the drainer.

Can you have a word with Mrs Piemonster as she seems incapable of achieving this.

Oh and fnarr fnarr etc etc

I'd possibly have agreed with you up until a few years ago, but when the phosphate moratorium came in, followed by the ban (which was only really last year, but the companies had acted long before) the current breed of detergents are actually pretty good.  Having worked in the industry for six years at the start of my career, and off and on for the remaining 20-odd, I'm relatively abreast of the situation without being an expert any more.

Cleaning dishes was a specialty of mine (even more so rinsing the afterwards) and I spent many a happy day (and night) with a stopwatch in hand looking at sheeting plates coming out of an industrial tunnel washer at various glamorous locations, such as Donington Services.

So cleaning is a function of chemicals (stronger* = better, and you can get away with stronger if you don't need to put your hands in it), temperature (reactions, particularly saponification of oils and greases goes faster at higher temp), time and mechanical action (fairly obvious) and by using stronger chemicals at higher temps and longer times, you can essentially do away with needing to scrub. To get the same effect with hand DW, you need more chemicals because they aren't as good, and mainly you need to physically remove the dirt by pushing it off the tableware with brushing or cloths, etc.

* doesn't necessarily mean worse for the environment though

Sure, you can always argue that things could be better, and indeed that's where the Eco brands find their niche, but it's another case where good shouldn't be the enemy of best. And yes, if you go far enough you can always compare the effort involved in mining and refining eg: Na2CO3 from chalk by the solvay process vs producing and converting surfactants from petrochemical processes (although sugar based polyglycoside surfactants are starting to become popular too)

Pros and cons therefore to both, but i certainly dispute that "the detergents used in dishwashers and rinse aid and so on are very polluting compared to hand wash detergents"

Might be something in that, vegetarian household here.

Corn on the cob. 🙂

If you are using teaa towels and don’t wash them after every use then you are simply smearing bugs all over the clean dishes

Interesting,where are these germs coming from,off the clean dishes or are they dropping out of the air?

You may be getting mixed up with dish cloths*,which do indeed store germs.

* not used with dishwashers

90% of the time I use a 50 degree wash.  The other 10% is when I clean it using the top tip mentioned in my earlier post, it then reaches a scalding 65 degrees.

Time to update the eco thread I started a good while ago.  Shuffles off to find it.

Interesting,where are these germs coming from,off the clean dishes or are they dropping out of the air?

People use tea towels for far more than drying dishes - wiping up spills, wiping hands, and yes airborne and even germs on the surface that you put the towel down on are all contaminants for this nice, warm, damp surface for them to breed on.

Blimey. I can't believe the STW Dishwasher thread has run to four pages.

*doffs cap to Jonv*

Seems like I was merely out of date - the perils of getting old!  😉

What do you reckon,average hand dishwashing takes 15mins once a day.                                                If you want to spend 91 hours a year washing dishes crack on,  I think I'll use the metal box next to the sink

Funny innit. Those hand washer uppers can stand at their sink staring at bubbles and think about what to type in this thread and what they've typed.. the rest of us, push the button, close the washer door and go and fix a bike or watch telly or something.

Blimey. I can’t believe the STW Dishwasher thread has run to four pages.

Pick a position and be a dick about it.  There's more than one position, so...

Never eat pork or lamb chops?

Never eat ribs?

No, never.

I love stw - you will always get called out by a world renowned expert on any subject!! 😆

If you had a hoover which only picked up light dust you’d bin it and buy another one, or similarly a washing machine that would only wash out smells but not dirt.

If I had a dishwasher that didn't wash dishes and dirty pans, I'd buy another one.

The cooked on blackness on the outside of the frying pan is now coming off bit by bit as it's been through the dishwasher. I don't think there's been anything I've had to pre-wash or re-wash since I got the dishwasher.

It's not labour free, but it certainly takes less effort than hand washing. I only hand wash things that don't fit or will break in the dishwasher, and I find myself avoiding using them so much these days!

If you are using teaa towels and don’t wash them after every use then you are simply smearing bugs all over the clean dishes

Doesn't drying out kill many bacteria?

I do sometimes use a teatowel, in fact, I do lots of 'unhygenic' things that expose me to bacteria.  I wonder how come I am not constantly ill? In fact I am hardly ever ill.

Glasses + hard water + hand washing = cloudy deposits

To anyone that moans that their dishwasher doesn't get their pots and pans clean, may I rudely suggest that you learn to cook.

Doesn’t drying out kill many bacteria?

I do sometimes use a teatowel, in fact, I do lots of ‘unhygenic’ things that expose me to bacteria.  I wonder how come I am not constantly ill? In fact I am hardly ever ill.

I guess if it does kill many, it's by no means all - many will lie dormant for a good while if dry.

Further to that I guess there's a big difference in what you might do that's fine at home (where you will have had contact with all the bacteria anyway), and that might be a significant risk in somewhere like a hospital or even a workplace.

I just binned the expensive built in AEG that was installed in the kitchen for a second hand low end Bosch I got for £70 (to be fair it looks new, despite being 8 years old). The Bosch can clean stuff, the AEG was useless. If you'd only ever experienced the AEG you would be quite justified in thinking dishwashers were pointless, its not just about how you load them...

Our Smeg dishwasher is crap.  Gunges up in corners, flimsy trays and door, really bloody annoying control unit (e.g. you can only cancel a wash and pump out by selecting a new programme, starting it and stopping it again after it's pumped out but before it's filled - this is in the manual).  However it does clean dishes 🙂