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What I find quite remarkable about this thread (apart from the predictability) is that one person is being held entirely responsible for [b]everything[/b] perceived to have been wrong during the Conservative government of that era. The clue should be in the word [b]Government[/b] ie. a democratically elected body collectively responsible for running the country.
I remember when the Conservatives came to power and the whole country was in the shit, literally!
The standard of living, generally, rose considerably during that period and the UK slowly rebuilt its reputation worldwide from that of a Country in which no-one in their right mind would invest. The demise of the coal mining and other industry was a disaster in many ways (not all) but to blame Thatcher entirely for this is ignoring the emergence of other (cheaper) manufacturing bases in the Third World and the rapidly changing face of international commerce. It was inevitable and to maintain a competitive industrial base would have necessitated the employment of even cheaper exploited labour, surely exactly the thing which The Unions were attempting to obviate.
There were other important 'players' in this era and to fail to mention the part played by them eg.Heseltine and Scargill and many others in positions of influence during that period and place the blame solely at the feet of one person is ludicrous.
What I find quite remarkable about this thread (apart from the predictability) is that one person is being held entirely responsible for everything perceived to have been wrong during the Conservative government of that era. The clue should be in the word Government ie. a democratically elected body collectively responsible for running the country.
I remember when the Conservatives came to power and the whole country was in the shit, literally!
The standard of living, generally, rose considerably during that period and the UK slowly rebuilt its reputation worldwide from that of a Country in which no-one in their right mind would invest. The demise of the coal mining and other industry was a disaster in many ways (not all) but to blame Thatcher entirely for this is ignoring the emergence of other (cheaper) manufacturing bases in the Third World and the rapidly changing face of international commerce. It was inevitable and to maintain a competitive industrial base would have necessitated the employment of even cheaper exploited labour, surely exactly the thing which The Unions were attempting to obviate.
There were other important 'players' in this era and to fail to mention the part played by them eg.Heseltine and Scargill and many others in positions of influence during that period and place the blame solely at the feet of one person is ludicrous.
What I find quite remarkable about this thread (apart from the predictability) is that one person is being held entirely responsible for everything perceived to have been wrong during the Conservative government of that era. The clue should be in the word Government ie. a democratically elected body collectively responsible for running the country.
I remember when the Conservatives came to power and the whole country was in the shit, literally!
The standard of living, generally, rose considerably during that period and the UK slowly rebuilt its reputation worldwide from that of a Country in which no-one in their right mind would invest. The demise of the coal mining and other industry was a disaster in many ways (not all) but to blame Thatcher entirely for this is ignoring the emergence of other (cheaper) manufacturing bases in the Third World and the rapidly changing face of international commerce. It was inevitable and to maintain a competitive industrial base would have necessitated the employment of even cheaper exploited labour, surely exactly the thing which The Unions were attempting to obviate.
There were other important 'players' in this era and to fail to mention the part played by them eg.Heseltine and Scargill and many others in positions of influence during that period and place the blame solely at the feet of one person is ludicrous.
If Thatcher and the Tories were so bad how did they remain in power till 1997?
Isn't it the electorate that decides how bad the government is, or was it a case that the unemployed weren't allowed to vote?
Bah, this thread is tailing off 🙁
In Birmingham they are adjusting binmens salaries as some of them are on 25-30k a year. So if they strike, good **** off and get a better-paid job then.
(Source, relative in the council). Shes had her salary adjusted due to female/male divide....adjusted DOWN.
I've gradually hated her less over the last 10 years, to the point where, no, I don't wish her ill, and feel a certain amount of compassion for her as a frail old lady. Listening to the tories cheering welfare cuts yesterday brought it all flooding back to me though. Compassionate conservatives my arse.
Bah, this thread is tailing off
surf-mat to the thread please!
I think everyone has hated to the point of exhaustion. Some pretty shameful comments throughout by some members - let's hope none of them lose a family member any time soon ehh?
Woody - what a strange memory you have.
Your standard of living onluy rose significantly if you were one of her favoured ones - favoured with huge tax cuts. It did not rise for the many millions who lost their jobs.
Standard of living also rose slower than in many other countries.
And we had the north sea oil money that other countries did not - other countries who didnt suffer the thathcer recessions ( plural) to anything like the same extent
So - with all that extra money from the north sea the UK still performed far worse than other countries
She was a complete disaster for the country and did damage it will never recover from
And yes - it is her fault - she did not believe in cabinet government and the government was moulded in her image.
Why did they keep winning. Multiple reasons. Patriotic fervour after the Falklands, divided opposition, the vagaries of our electoral system and a damn good propaganda machine
aren't you being a tad over-sensitive M-F..? or at best a wee bit pious..? Is she your grandmother..?
I've never really given the old boot much thought.. I'm too young to have noticed her influence to any great degree and politics generally doesn't really effect my life in any meaningful way..
But if there's a party when the old hag finally gets dragged back to hell.. I'll be there with bells on..
T-J - seconded.
Yes, the reason that she was re-elected was the patriotic madness after the Falklands, a was that her own neglect of diplomacy and aspects of defence allowed to happen.
I can't see why Brown has been castigated for selling off gold cheaply when all our governments have also been keen to sell off N.Sea oil at low prices -it's now 10 times what it was in Mrs T's day.
Seems like graciousness and dignity eludes these socialists!Wishing someone dead is pure miserable nasty hatred. Shame on the OP and it's supporters! (the description "it" is befitting of such low life).
This is a classic case of people showing their true colours!
This attitude is totally contradictory to the values of socialism and is indicative of the control freak tendencies of your typical lefty!
I wouldn't wish death on my worst enemy, let alone a politician.
Sad ****ers!
I'm no lefty, in the political sense. What this thread shows is the well documented polarisation of views regarding Thatcher and her Government.
Whether her legacy is judged as good or bad will depend on political persuasion (amongst other things) and will never be agreed upon.
What will be agreed upon is that both Thatcher and what she did was incredibly divisive for this Country.
[i]If you draw an angled line between Bristol and the Wash you divide the country into two halves with roughly 27 million people on each side. Between 1980 and 1985, in the southern half they lost [b]103,600 jobs[/b]. In the northern half in the same period they lost [b]1,032,000[/b] jobs, almost exactly ten times as many.[/i]
From Bill Brysons Notes from a Small Island. Hence the ill will...
What I find quite remarkable about this thread (apart from the predictability) is that one person is being held entirely responsible for everything perceived to have been wrong during the Conservative government of that era. The clue should be in the word Government ie. a democratically elected body collectively responsible for running the country.
Blair was (rightly) criticised for his presidential style of Government that by-passed Parliament and to an extent, Cabinet.
But, if you remember those times Woody, you must surely remember the constant cabinet re-shuffles as Thatcher removed anyone who disagreed or showed weakness. As someone posted above, the Conservative "whets" were systematically removed and replaced by "Yes Men". She pioneered "elected dictatorship"
a democratically elected body collectively responsible for running the country.
an oligarchy, a faux "elected" body who collectively attribute all responsibly of blame to their predecessors whilst running the country into the ground and feathering their own nests.
there, fixed it for you.
oh we don't have enough seats? well lets just change the system so we do! (beautifully taken to its next illogical step by GB who was PM even though never elected!)
Woody - what a strange memory you have.
Almost as strange as my laptop multi-posting but it is [b]my[/b] memory of the situation and what I observed while living in Scotland and London during her terms. I was very much in a lower income bracket at the time BTW 😉
You can post all the 'data' you like TJ and I am not for one second saying that what she did was always right or even decent (for want of a better word) but to blame her and all aspects of her government as being largely responsible for all of problems in this Country today is also plainly ridiculous.
Listening to the tories cheering welfare cuts yesterday
Missed that as I was out for most of the day. What particular aspect were they cheering?
So as I'm not approaching senility it appears my views are worthless.
However my views are formed partly from my experiences as a child but more from the experiences of my parents, so I asked their view...
The first thing they said is -
'Who of them have worked in the public sector through out their careers? Which of them have dug into their own pockets during the Thatcher years to ensure that other people's kids had books to write in and pen's to write with?'
aren't you being a tad over-sensitive M-F..? or at best a wee bit pious..? Is she your grandmother..?
Losing a family myself recently perhaps does make me more sensitive but to wish death and joke about dancing on graves just seems a bit immature and doesn't reflect what I always imagined the majority of people on here would be like.
Not like her - fair enough
Hate what she did and stood for - fair enough
Toast her death and joke about dancing on graves - distasteful
(IMO of course).
Do you see her as part of your family m_f? 😕
Do you see her as part of your family m_f?
No. Why?
dancing on graves just seems a bit immature and doesn't reflect what I always imagined the majority of people on here would be like.
oh..
..racist
Fair enough TSW
Bit I also remember kids running around the street with no shoes and my workmate telling me about his Dad buying horse meat from the butcher in Sunderland ........all during Labour eras and not so very long ago, so go figure !
has margaret ever written a autobiography?
if so, has anyone got one i can borrow.
Woody, just out of interest... is that in the last 15 years or the 70's?
I'm not trying to provoke an argument, instead hope to learn from you and others on here.
You can post all the 'data' you like TJ and I am not for one second saying that what she did was always right or even decent (for want of a better word) but to blame her and all aspects of her government as being largely responsible for all of problems in this Country today is also plainly ridiculous.
WHy dont you try and post some data to support you view of the Iron lady as some some sort of collective responsibility cabinet parliamentarian
She suspended the cabinet and used a smaller war cabinet during the Falklands conflict, removing Unions from GCHQ was taken without full cabinet approval , removal of whets etc. It did not even meet every week- Labour were no better.
Perhpas you can cite numerous examples of a ministers overruling Thatcher or her bowing to their collective will rather than them to hers.
Even you call it her governement in your post - says it all really.
and my workmate telling me about his Dad buying horse meat from the butcher in Sunderland
there's a boucheries chevalines in Sunderland?!? how bourgeois!
Woody - Its very clear and obvious. The deliberate creation of a large pool of unemployed has done serious damage to the social fabric of the country. Anyone who says different walks around with their eyes shut
The deliberate starving of public services of funds nearly destroyed those services. They have mainly recovered under labour
When we with north sea oil money did so much worse than other european nations without that massive bounty then yes - she is to blame.
there's a boucheries chevalines in Sunderland
Swindon can only dream.....
there's a boucheries chevalines in Sunderland?!? how bourgeois!
Probably unemployed pit ponies
ton - Memberhas margaret ever written a autobiography?
if so, has anyone got one i can borrow.
borrow? Do you mean burn ton?
😉
hey, don't knock it, cattle mutilation brings in more tourists than crop circles nowadays!
[b]WHy dont you try and post some data to support you view of the Iron lady as some some sort of collective responsibility cabinet parliamentarian[/b]
She suspended the cabinet and used a smaller war cabinet during the Falklands conflict, removing Unions from GCHQ was taken without full cabinet approval , removal of whets etc. It did not even meet every week- Labour were no better.
Perhpas you can cite numerous examples of a ministers overruling Thatcher or her bowing to their collective will rather than them to hers.
Even you call it her governement in your post - says it all really.
No need to look for data - there is video evidence of Thatchers Cabinet Government...
Toast her death and joke about dancing on graves - distasteful
Were it anyone other that her I would agree with you.
hey, don't knock it, cattle mutilation brings in more tourists than crop circles nowadays!
I thought that was the other celebrated new town, Milton Keynes, party trick?
I cant see the link at work what is is it please anyone
Yoss - you called?
The deliberate starving of public services of funds nearly destroyed those services. They have mainly recovered under labour
Oh yes but now we are billions of pounds in debt and suffering hugely for it. Labour spent money we didn't have. They seemed to forget the very simple sum - money in = money out. How any government can spend so much more than it's income baffles me. Things might have seemed good under lie-bour but it was all artificially propped up by massive debts.
I suggest you avoid a career as an accountant TJ. A career as a rose tinter for an optician might be for you.
then yes - she is to blame.
Ok, if you say so TJ, then it must be right, although your denial of other factors and your devotion to the recent [s]conservative[/s] New Labour government does seem to smack of the very blinkered reasoning you so readily accuse others of. <cue yet more 'indisputable' facts and figures re unemployment, growth, NHS funding as a % of GDP etc. etc. yawn>
Quite a remarkable woman in any case, whichever way you look at it, to have achieved all that singlehandedly in a democratic country !
Surf matt - indeed but we still spend less on our public services than Germany, Italy, France, the Netherlands, Norway etc etc
The answer - higher taxation. Fairer taxation. We remain low tax low spend
Remember one of thatchers first steps was massive tax cuts for the rich.
I have no devotion to the recent new labour government.
Were it anyone other that her I would agree with you.
[b]Anyone?[/b]
Surf-Mat - I hope you appreciate the irony of the PR man, who manages to present himself in such a way that people 'stalk' him from other forums to give him sh1t, doling out careers advice! 😆
IMO we probably pay as much in tax as other Euro nations but it's often hidden.
My bro in law and family live in Sweden - massive taxes but amazing public services. You know where you are there - you WILL get taxed to the hilt but your train WILL turn up on time and you WILL get great hospital care.
Bloody cold though.
that's right mat the economic downturn triggered by banks in America had nothing to do with it at all , did not cause an unforseen recession and reduced govt income banks were not overstretched and needed baling out, companies went to the wall etc it was just simply labour govt - the fact every other country suffered a similiar fate is indicative of just how widespread their mismanagement was I assume mat...The fact every other G20 country agreed was persuaded by Broown to do quantative easing and /or spending ot stop a recession [ and the usa still is]getting hold was.
Be right wing if you wish but to blame Labour policies alone for the shortfall created by the economic downturn is a daft thing to say , even for an intellectuall pygmy like you.
cue yet more 'indisputable' facts and figures re unemployment, growth, NHS funding as a % of GDP etc. etc. yawn>
Yes I hate those people who back up what they say with data/evidence. I much prefer people like you who just spout and an opinion, offer no evidence to support it and then mock those who do present evidence to counter your viewpoint.
I have no devotion to the recent new labour government.
Woot! We have agreement on something 😉
intellectuall pygmy
That's in conteniton to be my favourite quote!
Yes I hate those people who back up what they say with data/evidence. I much prefer people like you who just spout and an opinion, offer no evidence to support it and then mock those who do present evidence to counter your viewpoint
I assume this is a troll, given that your previous post implies a complete misunderstanding of the nature of a structural deficit. Given that, I suppose I'd better not rise to it...
So Junkyard, you deny that Labour massively overspent? Didn't build up any reserves when it was booming? Shall we just blame it on America? Shall we ignore or woefully regulated banks too? Was it not Labour's fault that they had a free hand in helping wreck the economy? Did they not bend over backwards to accommodate these banks too?
Insult all you like but your view of the world is a very distorted one. Still at least you can pinch other people's lines and attempt to brush over your shortcomings by appearing to be funny heh?
Surf-Mat - MemberIMO we probably pay as much in tax as other Euro nations but it's often hidden.
No = we pay less. The numbers do not lie. total tax take as % of gdp. No hidden taxes whatever you think they may be
My bro in law and family live in Sweden - massive taxes but amazing public services. You know where you are there - you WILL get taxed to the hilt but your train WILL turn up on time and you WILL get great hospital care.
Of course - they pay significantly more in taxes to afford better service
49% taxation there compared to 39% here
Rememebr with many of these countries you pay for your healthcare on top of your taxation so the figures for tax take do not include the cost of healthcare as it does for the UK
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_tax_revenue_as_percentage_of_GDP
More of a retrospective than documentary...
Milton Keynes?!? don't you bring those wannabe upstart roundabout copying nerdowells into this TSY!!
Of course - they pay significantly more in taxes to afford better service49% taxation there compared to 39% here
Rememebr with many of these countries you pay for your healthcare on top of your taxation so the figures for tax take do not include the cost of healthcare as it does for the UK
I'm not arguing here, just comparing.
As for tax - massive fuel tax, inheritance tax, capital gains tax, etc, etc - we pay a lot more than just income tax and NI.
Can anyone think of a policy or action of her government's that was actually a good idea and did the country some good? I'm certainly struggling.
I know this might be slightly out of context here, but is Thatcher dead yet?
It would appear that GDP growth increased at a lower rate compared to similar countries under Thatcher.GDP growth in the UK increased at a higher rate compared to other countries after Thatcher was gone.
Look at graph again - rare of increase (gradient of line) is greater for UK
surf matt - can you read? Those percentages are the total tax take as a % of GDP - including everything from Vat to council tax to income tax
Milton Keynes - Kicking Swindon's ass in Bovine plastination since 1967.
damo - you look at it again - the gap between the UK and the other countries grew. Growth rates were lower. Indisputable.
can you read?
Yes I can - please point out where you added the GDP information stated?
Junkyard
I did point out that it was [b]my[/b] opinion and experience. As far as facts and figures go, I'm quite certain that if I had the time or inclination I could just as easily be an internet expert and obtain the proof you require in support my posts. I am not, however, a Conservative (or Labour) spin doctor and have no real interest in party politics for the very reason this thread exists ie. lots of hot air and polarised opinions which ultimately achieve ...k all.
BTW - intellectual has only one 'l' on the end which is rather amusing in its context. In addition, is it really 'PC' to use the diminutive stature of certain groups of people in such pejorative manner. Surely SM warrants at least a 'pygmoid' rating?
Was it not Labour's fault that they had a free hand in helping wreck the economy? Did they not bend over backwards to accommodate these banks too?
Of course, the Tories (and the City) would have wholeheartedly supported any Labour plans for greater regulation of the financial sector, wouldn't they??
As they would have poured scorn on any foreign military adventurism??
and they wouldn't have cosied up to W, would they??
Lets face it - For most of 1997 - 2010 the Tory party did little in the way of effective opposition, mainly because TB's brand of "socialism" was not that far removed from what went before
Thatcher was a disaster - if only we could have returned to the good old 1970's!?
really TSY? try some stats [url= http://www.googlefight.com/index.php?lang=en_GB&word1=Milton+Keynes+Bovine+plastination&word2=Swindon+Bovine+plastination ]IN YOUR FACE![/url]
edit: shit, first time I did it Swindon won with 1 result, now MKscum seems to have fabricated 38 results!?! you can keep yr concrete cows, we've got chalk horses!
mat it is tax per % of GDP 🙄
I may have misuderestimated you calling you an intelectual pygmy
MK 39 - Swindon 1
Whoops, hollers, does donut round another round-about.
rkk - I'm not some die hard Tory boy (I didn't vote for them) but I am also under no illusion that Labour were much good either. The "good" they did was just artificially propped up and now the ConDems are having to clear it up.
I suspect you are correct - any government may have done similar. But it was Labour that did it so they can carry the can.
damo - you look at it again - the gap between the UK and the other countries grew. Growth rates were lower. Indisputable.
That graph looks to me like actual GDP as opposed to real GDP so don't mean much. [url= http://www.google.com/publicdata?ds=wb-wdi&met=ny_gdp_mktp_kd_zg&idim=country:GBR&dl=en&hl=en&q=gdp+growth+uk#met=ny_gdp_mktp_kd_zg&idim=country:GBR:DEU:ITA:FRA ]Here's real GDP growth[/url], and if you can draw any meaningful conclusions from that apart from the fact that Germany does much better than us you're doing very well.
😆 @ Junkyard
I'm assuming that was intentional 😉
may have [b]misuderestimated[/b] you calling you an [b]intelectual[/b] pygmy
😆 😆 😆
[img]
[/img]
Posting those daft 'failboat has grounded' etc pictures is if course a great indicator of intellectual pigmyism. Mat, surely you can flex your rad PR skillz to come up with something more witty or subtle than that?
mat it was intentional for woody and irony - cant beleive it went over your head given how sharp you are. However, the first misspelling was unintentional and does have an amount of irony that does add to the value of the quote IMHO.
Mat he posted this link
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_tax_revenue_as_percentage_of_GDP
You mentioned hidden taxes again and then , when stating you could read asked where the mention of GDP was.
YOu need to develop some humour here mat you really do.
Your fail is much larger than mine which is only an added letter rather than an inability to think and read
Junkyard - I didn't read the link as it was a Wiki one so I don't believe it. Did Google %age GDP and figures vary wildly.
You mention me taking things too seriously; now try reading your posts again and tell me how much humour is involved? Borrowed lines don't count - that's not your own wit.
how about a probably photoshopped picture of Dubya biting a kitten/tiny big cat?
[img] 
[/img]
did labour overspend? yes
did the opposition at the time want them to spend more? yes
did labour under-regulate the financial industry? yes
did the opposition want even less regulation? yes
do any of them actually give a shit about it? no
Borrowed lines don't count - that's not your own wit
I genuinely dont know what you are accusing me of borrowing here - the bush one? the pygmy one what? The ones ages ago about why you were a director? As you plagarised direct form a newspaper without sourcing it is a bit rich [ did you see what I did there 😉 or have I stolen that one? ]coming from you.
Reasonable points iDave
Labour did not overspend - they undertaxed
The problem with 'opposition' is that all it usually entails is disagreeing with the party(ies) in power unless it would be a PR disaster not to agree (dangerous dogs/knife crime etc).
they spent more than tax revenue suggested was prudent = overspending
does someone in debt overspend or just not earn enough?
The problem with 'opposition' is that all it usually entails is disagreeing with the party(ies) in power unless it would be a PR disaster not to agree (dangerous dogs/knife crime etc).
Quite right.
But, all parties try to re-write history when they come to power. The re-packaging of the previous regime's legacy has more credibility if you vociferously opposed what they were doing at the time.
The Tories opposed Labour stealth taxes, but promoted more, not less, business regulation 🙄
At every turn, CMD, George / Gideon and all the other condem cabinet members are including a line on Labour getting us into this mess...
It's all rather disingenuous