[Closed] Get your dancing on grave boots ready

And baths by candlelight.

And having my tea cooked on a Calor gas stove.

Unfortunately there are people today that struggle to heat their house adequately even without a strike, thanks largely to her.

There's a nice deep hole in Chile going spare. Tip her down the rescue chute and use the camera at the bottom to see what kind of mess she makes. Would also make sure that she was indeed dead.

It's so [b]"of the moment" [/b]to hate her - many do without knowing any/many facts about the good things that happened under her "rule."

Oh well - usual sheep mentality rules as usual.

Really? Aren't you getting on for 20 yrs behind the times? Even for those who still harbour that burning hatred, it was kindled 25-30 years ago

Unfortunately there are people today that struggle to heat their house adequately even without a strike, thanks largely to her.

Stood firm against the IRA? You mean perpetuated a civil war that could only be ended by negotiations and was successfully ended by negotiations once someone with some understanding and flexibility was PM

I didn't know you were a fan of John Major TJ?
😀

roper - on this one he did very well. No doubt the end of the civil war in northern Ireland was in large part down to him.

Yeti, I've not offered an opinion. I've pointed out that TJ's post vehemently offers his opinions on specific historic items as absolute fact. I don't necessarily agree with all of Matts post either but it was offered as an outlook rather than something that should be written. TJ seems to attempt to bully and laud anyone who doesn't share his views. He needs to wind his neck in IMO.

I won't be celebrating the death of a senile old woman, but I certainly won't be mourning either.

And I know it's a cliche - but that doesn't mean it isn't true - she promoted the idea of selfishness as a virtue and is responsible for a great deal of the social problems and divisions still present in this country.

It's so "of the moment" to hate her - many do without knowing any/many facts about the good things that happened under her "rule."

I've not noticed this, most people who hate her now always have, me included.

i must admit the standing firm against the ira thing made me lol
she prolonged the troubles and a lot of innocent people died before things got better, infact until nulab came along....

Mastilles, look at google regarding the rates and causes of fuel poverty.

Backhander - bully and laud? Do you know what laud means?

backhander - Member

TJ you really are a cock.

Pot kettle black.

Kimbers - John Major takes a lot of the credit for the end of the troubles

Backhander - I guess I was hoping that you (or someone) would be able to put together a counter to TJ with as much conviction as TJ posted himself.

Coming from a background of Guardian reading public sector workers I've never heard the other side of the argument put forward in a plausible way.

Surf-Mat - Member
No politician is perfect, but as Tony Benn said you knew where you stood with her. On the point of unemployment, industries like coal were no longer viable, she didn't waste money trying to subsidise them and although bitter at the time, countries that did try to keep loss making industries going like France & Germany are now paying for it with huge unemployment now.
She stood firm against the IRA and reacted with an incredibly cool head in the Brighton bombings.
She took on Argentina and won.
She revolutionised higher education.
Her government turned around an uncompetitive, union-dominated economy into a powerhouse that set a lot of precedents for the world to follow.
She inspired (some of) a generation to believe that hard work pays off.
She was a genuinely well respected leader the World over.
Do people not understand that the coal industry was NO LONGER VIABLE? Why prop it up?

Do you actually have any idea what you're talking about Surf-Mat?

'Standing firm' to the IRA only perpetuated the problems in Northern Ireland: what really moved things on there was Major and then Blair's willingness to shift and negotiate and start the peace process.

She inspired (some of) a generation to believe that greed is good and the pursuit of self-interest can be put above the well-being of the whole.

And what the hell do you think she did that 'revolutionised Higher Education'? I ask this in all sincerity as someone who works in the sector.

And as someone who also grew up in one of the steel towns that fell apart in the 1980s.

I guess I was hoping that you (or someone) would be able to put together a counter to TJ with as much conviction as TJ posted himself.

+1

And I know it's a cliche - but that doesn't mean it isn't true - she promoted the idea of selfishness as a virtue and is responsible for a great deal of the social problems and divisions still present in this country.

+1

Wow I always thought Surf-Mat was a bit of a tool but really.....

I've not noticed this, most people who hate her now always have, me included.

I was going to write something in her defence, 😯 but I can't. I too have hated her for a long, long time. 8)

grum - Member
Wow I always thought Surf-Mat was a bit of a tool but really.....

Bit harsh. He's does tit around in boats though, so how could he possibly understand the feelings that started this thread?

I'll say something in her defence that I've borrowed from another recent thread....

hell of a team builder tho.... 😉

sweepy - Member
Mastilles, look at google regarding the rates and causes of fuel poverty.

Ohh, and I am politically neutral - I am of the opinion that they all serve us different shades of the same shit so not sticking up for her, I just dislike hearing people wishing death on another human who was, at the end of the day, doing what she felt was right for the nation whether, on reflection, it was right or wrong.

yeti............team builder and you missed this 😉

I guess I was hoping that you (or someone) would be able to put together a counter to TJ with as much conviction as TJ posted himself.

I think the problem is that the arguments against thatcher are usually based on first hand experience.

I think in this instance surf-mat's opinion is way wide of the mark.

The coal industry was viable, the issue was the power of the union. Thatcher took them on and beat them into the ground. You only have to visit parts of the north (and a few in the south) to see the utter devastation that her actions caused. People are still paying for her policies today.

I won't celebrate the death of an old woman, but I can and do appreciate that hatred for her runs deeper than a lot of southern middle class posters on this thread can understand.

OK, the IRA couldn't continue their preferred activities of bombing and maiming innocent people due to the americans realising sometime around 11/12 sept 2001 that terrorism wasn't as glamorous as they had thought. PIRA ran out of funds and therefore only had political means available to them. There were no war crimes in the south atlantic and don't start on about the belgrano when the captain of the ship has admitted it was a fair hit. Argentina has no rightful claim to the islands, if anything they should be a repulic.
I'm no fan of Thatcher and consider my politics central (I have views to the left and right). It's clear that she really did ruin many areas of the UK but was it a benefit to the country as a whole? I don't know. Nobody really does as the alternative was never played out. I completely sympathise with those whos lives were wrecked by her policies (there were many) and they have a right to hate her IMO. I'm a little young to remember the affects of her actions and so will not insult people by offering an opinion based upon the writings of people who may have been biased in some way or another. Edit; I grew up properly poor, does that get me kudos points?

I think what you can also blame Thatcher for is that she was so influential that a supposedly left wing government largely carried on her legacy (though Labour have to share the blame for that one too of course).

Re coal not being 'viable' - any idea how much we still subsidise other sources of power? Or the banks for that matter.

I think it's important to remember in amongst all the handbagging that she was a figurehead, a focal point for a deeply entrenched little britain, pro-establishment, anti-working class, elitist, right wing, old money, ****-the-poor mentality that has never gone away.

...and Oh look, here we are again, ideology as policy, cut the state back, ****-the-poor, tramp down the communities that have never recovered from the last time the Conservative party was in full swing.

If ever we need an example of the way that governments can build lasting legacies, the damage done by the Conservative government in the past is the best of all.

We're all in it together....

Cheers Ton! Didn't intend on misquoting so went and copy/pasted. 😉

OK, the IRA couldn't continue their preferred activities of bombing and maiming innocent people due to the americans realising sometime around 11/12 sept 2001 that terrorism wasn't as glamorous as they had thought.

[b]WTF

Don't let facts get in the way, ehh???[/b]

The Good Friday Agreement was signed more than 3 years before 9/11

mat PR really is your calling unsubstantiated unevidenced opinion masquerading as fact and then you have the audacity to say this

Surf-Mat - Member
TJ - no it's "TJ's" OPINION.

A VERY different thing to "the truth

I hated some of the things she did I found other things laudable.

I won't celebrate her death because that would be sick and weird. I won't be terribly upset either. She, like everyone, was flawed in many ways but the populace voted her in a few times (I was too young to vote)so she obviously struck a chord with a lot of people.

I think on reflection Blair did worse things than she did but in a much less explicit way.

My take on Politics is that they are all C****

lets not forget that under her lawson and then lamont came up with the awesome idea of pension holidays!

Nice answer backhander. I don't agree tho 🙂 een tho the only bit of my answer you refute is the belgrano.

I wonder how her supporters feel about her (continued) support for the mass-murdering Pinochet? I think that indicates pretty well what kind of person she is.

Who got us involved in Northern Ireland?

A Labour Prime Minister!

a nice little fact you choose to overlook when making accusations TJ!

yossarian...........words of wisdom.

this woman ripped the communities to pieces, causing unknown debt, depravation, divorce and suicide in some cases.
people were using soup kitchens and food handouts.

do you wonder why there is so much hatred for this woman.
she made it personal, and not for the countries wellbeing.

In April 2005, Gerry Adams called for the IRA to lay down its weapons

No IRA weapons were decommissioned until October 2001, and the final consignment to be "put beyond use" was announced on 26 September 2005

I'm with MF on this one.

While I'm not pro Thatcher, I feel this pure hatred needs some balance so used the opinions of some pro Thatcherites from a rather nicely written Independent piece from a while back.

As usual, everyone goes ballistic.

She took on Argentina and won.

Hadn't read that until now.

I should bloody well hope she won! A fully professional army against conscripted children (17 year olds). It was a war, not football where anyone has a chance against England. 😆

And had I signed up, as I was planning, I would have been one of the youngest Brits sent there.

As much damage as Thatcher did do, the loathing and vitriol should be heaped upon those who voted her in. Time and again.

They enabled this.

👿

Can we go back to the Winter of Discontent?

"Who got us involved in Northern Ireland?"

Oliver Cromwell actually.

matt...my hatred is pure for her mate.
i despise the woman and everything she did and stands for.

The coal industry was viable

Not in the form it was in the 1980s, and had been in decline for a long time before that -

[img] [/img]

I'm not defending how it was done, but something needed to be done. Ideally there would have been a managed decline of an industry that kills workers and is an environmental disaster; it's unfortunate that you got people like Thatcher and Scargill at the same time - it was always going to be the workers that suffered when you had 2 sides that wouldn't back down.

Can we go back to the Winter of Discontent?

i think we're about to....

very old woman in nearly dead shocker. must be a slow day in the world of news. I do love how some people believe that they could have done a better job. oh and if you don't know she wasn't exactly your typical tory gentry. yeah she f$%ked up but show me a world leader/politician who hasn't lived up to their own hype. she did a better job then labour. fact.

Zulu-Eleven - Member
Who got us involved in Northern Ireland?

A Labour Prime Minister!

a nice little fact you choose to overlook when making accusations TJ!

Please try and think about what you're saying here: 'we' were involved in Northern Ireland right from the moment of its creation under the Government of Ireland Act in 1922 because 'it' is part of the United Kingdom. Unless you're fingering Lloyd George it's pretty difficult to blame anyone for getting 'us involved.'

@ Surf-Mat

Are you incapable of having your own opinions then? In the happily 'revolutionised' world of Higher Education we call that plagiarism...

Zulu-Eleven - Member

Who got us involved in Northern Ireland?

A Labour Prime Minister!

a nice little fact you choose to overlook when making accusations TJ!

Eh? to what are you refering? the division of ireland in 1920? Liberal leader IIRC.

Rio - coal needed to be reformed but there were many factors not taken into consideration. Firstly that the cost of benefits needed to be added to the cost of the imported coal to give and actual cost to the country of closing pits. Also that the polish coal imported was of poorer quality and also of the strategic value of having and indigenous energy supply.

who got us involved in iraq and afghanistan?

Mattie - well if it helps, I do agree with most of the opinions and wanted to add some balance to the thread. I didn't really have time to construct my own list so "borrowed" one.

It's had the desired effect so I'm happy at least.

Oh yes - I also think we are in for a "Winter of Discontent" x 100 in the next few years. We are so utterly and totally in the sh1t that I would be surprised if we get back to nutty 2007 "wealth" in anything less than 15 years.

TJ you really are a cock.

Can't argue with fact, so resort to insults. That's mature and clever, isn't it? 🙄

Wow I always thought Surf-Mat was a bit of a tool but really.....

I just don't think he ever experienced the negative effects of Thatcherism. And tbh, I doubt many of those supporting Her Maggiesty did either.

Sadly, this thread just serves to illustrate just how divided this nation has become, socially, culturally and economically. The 'Chav Underclass', an entire generation reliant on Benefits, has emerged as a result of Thatcherism. Indeed, just a brief read of this forum reveals the insular, narrow-minded and selfish attitudes which have come to prevail in Britain today. I think that's sad. Some folk on here bang on about how great Thatcher was, clearly oblivious to the real damage that evil woman did to this country, OUR ****ing country.

Instead, here we sit, bickering over who's right and wrong, calling each other rude names, trying to score points.

Do any of you seriously think that woman gives a shit about any of the people in this country? Really? Does she bollox. Her sole interest is in lining her own and her cronies' pockets. I'm sat right this moment, looking at the monument to her treachery:

[img] [/img]

Thatcher ordered the senseless slaughter of over 600 men on the General Belgrano. Did she shed a tear for them?

(Limbers up. Practices new moves in front of mirror...)

Please try and think about what you're saying here: 'we' were involved in Northern Ireland right from the moment of its creation under the Government of Ireland Act in 1922 because 'it' is part of the United Kingdom. Unless you're fingering Lloyd George it's pretty difficult to blame anyone for getting 'us involved.'

OK, lets be specific, who put troops on the streets of Northern Ireland - up to that point it was entirely an issue for the government and civil authorities of Northern Ireland.

TJ - like I said, I'm not defending how it was done. Personally I consider sending people down pits to dig coal as very similar to sending children down chimneys to clean them - in this day and age we should treat people better. Unfortunately a whole mythology has been created about the noble miners which tends to prevent people from looking at the issue objectively.

I used to live just to the left of that tower, by the Thames in a nice tribute to Thatcherism called Anchorage Point... 😉

[i]The Government of Northern Ireland requested that the UK Government deploy the British Army in Northern Ireland to restore order and to prevent sectarian attacks on Catholics. Nationalists initially welcomed the Army, often giving the soldiers tea and sandwiches, as they did not trust the police to act in an unbiased manner. Relations soured due to heavy-handedness by the Army.[/i]

as very similar to sending children down chimneys to clean them

Thatcher ordered the senseless slaughter of over 600 men on the General Belgrano. Did she shed a tear for them?

(Limbers up. Practices new moves in front of mirror...)

Zulu - so for you the northern irish troubles started because there were troops sent there to try to keep the peace? We had no involvemnet before that?

matt..........how do you think you would cope in a nice terrace house in a nice pit village.
with you views on thatcher???

She shut down whole industries without a thought as to what might happen to the employees when towns and districts lost their major employers. She divided the country and sold off the family silver, as Macmillan said. In the early eighties businesses went under as a consequence of her financial policies. She had some dodgy friends, one was Hammer of OXY (Piper Alpha, remember?).

I'll open a bottle I've been saving.

I'm not defending how it was done, but something needed to be done.

It did, but not at the expense of working communities that had given nothing but full hearted support to Britain throughout the decades. To make them pay as hard as they did and as long as they did, to put an entire generation of some communities into poverty on the basis of political dogma is shameful.

Ideally there would have been a managed decline of an industry that kills workers and is an environmental disaster

oh please, the oil and construction industries haven't been wound up because of their safety or environmental records

it's unfortunate that you got people like Thatcher and Scargill at the same time - it was always going to be the workers that suffered when you had 2 sides that wouldn't back down.

she had the power to do things differently. she knew full well the impact her policies would have on the miners and their families. She considered their suffering to be less important than showing all unions what would happen if they opposed her. In doing so she created a new ethos in our country that divided our nation, stunted a generation and still creates enormous anger and resentment to this day.

working communities that had given nothing but full hearted support to Britain throughout the decades

The few people I knew who worked in mining generally hated it and only did it for the money. But hey, why not perpetuate the myth. 🙄

Nope. And neither did I. It was as legitmate a target as the coventry etc.

Ok. In the same way that British soldiers are to the Taleban then?

'Legitimate target'? FFS... 🙄

matt..........how do you think you would cope in a nice terrace house in a nice pit village.
with you views on thatcher???

Why would I move to such a place?

You make your own luck in life - moaning at others and venting rage because it's "someone else's fault" gets you nowhere.

Every government dishes us out sh1t on it's own way - be it obviously (like Thatcher) or in a more sly way like Labour did. You just have to roll with their "punches" and make your own way.

We live in a free country with free enterprise - we aren't oppressed, we don't get imprisoned or shot for no reason (usually). We have a pretty good NHS and a fairly good infrastructure for business and to support our massive population.

I've done many jobs since leaving Uni from struggling to find anything for months and doing £5.50 per hour demolition labouring then farm labouring to co-running a fairly successful little company - what have I learnt? You make your own luck and you don't blame anyone else when/if it all goes to sh1t - which it has done plenty of times for me and my family.

And for the miners? A terrible time for them all but things change and jobs get lost - think Industrial Revolution, think IT boom, think many other major shifts in our economic make-up.

Zulu - so for you the northern irish troubles started because there were troops sent there to try to keep the peace? We had no involvemnet before that?

TJ - your specific accusation is that Thatcher "perpetuated a civil war that could only be ended by negotiations"

The key single act that perpetuated and fuelled the troubles in the latter half of the 20th century was the introduction of the British Army in a quasi-policing role, this was done under the authority of a Labour Prime minister and home secretary.

what have I learnt?

That you're awesome?

Ok. In the same way that British soldiers are to the Taleban then?

Um yes. That's how it works. 🙄

Rio, your right - mining is a dirty, unglamorous, dangerous job.

However, it has always paid better than working in a factory or on the checkouts. That's why blokes in Chile continued to go down the San Jose mine despite being fully aware of the poor condition of the mine.

...and in communities where there aren't a whole deal of shiny money choices, the dirty money looks pretty good.

Debating Thatcher's legacy will always be clouded and polarised by the Miner's Strike - which is both understandable and unfortunate. She did plenty of harm (almost) everywhere else, but that tends to be forgotten compared to the magnitude of what happened to pit villages.

Coal, steel, shipbuilding, manufaturing, rail - all these things and more needed reformation, and to do that required unions to be engaged or disempowered.

Unfortunately making it a unions / workers / management / Government issue obscures the facts that investment for a new generation of commerce (not just banking) was desperately needed, but was not delivered.

Good example in the news recently - Cunard's new QE. Not built on Clydeside or Belfast.

Surprisingly, not built in Korea, China or Poland for cheap delivery either...

No, built in Italy.
[b]WTF[/b] Don't get me wrong, the Italians are fantastic designers and engineers and have a long tradition of shipbuilding - but they are still ship building... We gave up on anything that didn't fit Thatcher's economic model.

Ships are still needed, can still be built profitably in Germany, France and Italy - all countries tied by the same EU "red tape" that we moan about, all countries with a unionised workforce, but countries that have retained, encourgaed and invested in their manufacturing base - [b]AND CONTINUE TO PROFIT FROM IT.[/b]

I'm dusting the Raleigh Burner off to wheelie and skid on her grave, 80's style.

You make your own luck in life - moaning at others and venting rage because it's "someone else's fault" gets you nowhere.

The blood runs blue....

Thatcher's blood may indeed be blue, she aint no human.

matt...........i did prior to this debate think you were a ok guy.
i do now think you are a cock.
i just hope that you and your rosy little world never fall on unfortunate times.

Mat your a product of everything I hate about thatchers legacy.

+1

You make your own luck in life

Which is fine if you have equal and fair access to the same educational and health resources as everyone else. trouble is, people in Britain generally don't enjoy such equality. Not that you'd see that.

Mat; by your own admission, you're from a reasonably affluent background, went to public school/university, have been fortunate enough to secure a decent income from your career. So, did you make your own luck, or was it your parents?

Do you ever stop to imagine what life might have been like, had you not enjoyed such advantages early on? Because your posts on here seem to suggest you have very little understanding of what life is like for millions of people in Britain. Or for those affected by the closure of the only source of work and income available to them in their local area. People who had no options to 'make their own luck', because they din't have the economic ability to move elsewhere to get work, or afford education which might have trained them to do other jobs. Indeed, no such training or educational opportunities were made to the vast majority of people made unemployed as a result of Thatcherite policies.

Do you dress up at weekends, and call yourself [url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marie_Antoinette ][i]Marie[/i][/url]?

[img] [/img]

OK, lets be specific, who put troops on the streets of Northern Ireland - up to that point it was entirely an issue for the government and civil authorities of Northern Ireland

Think we used the bLack and tans to actually create the partition artificially

The key single act that perpetuated and fuelled the troubles in the latter half of the 20th century was the introduction of the British Army in a quasi-policing role, this was done under the authority of a Labour Prime minister and home secretary.

Infact is mat just trying to wind people up?

Surf_Matt... that taxi I ordered for you is still waiting!

Surf-Mat is really Gareth Cheeseman

ton - thanks for that. However you are backing up the "it's not fair" attitude. Maybe it's because Ive seen both sides of life - from horribly (and I mean horribly) skint to fairly comfortably off and back down again. Both sides of the coin so a balanced view of it all.

Schooling - yes it was private until 14 then comp as dad lost all his money due to two plcs going bust in the late 80s recession oweing him a lot. So from 14 to now, I have received NO support from my parents.

I lived on less than £10 per week for two months at uni - my folks had no money to support me. I scrabbled around for ages for a "proper" job and did some pretty nasty temp jobs for over a year. Oh and we lost a baby at 37 weeks in 2007 - you may have conveniently forgotten that? If that's "a rosy little world" then you really are talking complete sh1t.