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Yup. I've been reading up on incels. Very worrying. The current LGBTQ situation will resolve itself and in truth will impact on non vested folk in very minor ways, incels with the support of Jordan Peterson seem to be a problem for folk outside their community.
As a matter of fact reading back my own incels comment has made me realise a correction is required in that not all incels are bad. The history of the term is very interesting. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incel
Normally I disagree with Rachel, but I think she makes a series of good points.
I think in the wider feminist community there seem to be a worrying and increasingly audible number of voices suggesting that trans women are not "real" women, but from everyone I've listened to on the subject, they face the same issues as any other women. As Rachel points out, if people in the LGBT community want out they can get out, nobody is forcing them in, but Pride has the T part of the community at its heart.
Disclaimer - I'm not gay, bi or trans, and I am in fact a typical STWer (white, middle class, male, if I worked in IT I'd have the full set), but from the outside can see that a number of the common attitudes towards the different groups in the LGBT world are similar.
v8ninety and atlas feel that anyone not wanting to bang a trans person is a homophobe
I never said that. Never even hinted at it. What I said was that people should be able to have relationships with whoever they want and that some people are a bit too hung up on labels for their own good. So much of the agenda in the media is driven by what trans people are doing to “us” and how “they” will somehow game the system to do harm. Very little of it is tied up in the harm that is done to trans people either physically or mentally because of the tone of the discourse.
What I said was that people should be able to have relationships with whoever they want and that some people are a bit too hung up on labels for their own good.
no one said they shouldn't
I’m not going to pretend some things in this thread haven’t upset me – they have.
curious to know why? no one has said anything nasty about trans people in this thread.
@poah – not as rare as you would think, if you read the article.
most people don't know about it. However, my auntie has a chromosomal syndrome..
curious to know why? no one has said anything nasty about trans people in this thread.
If if you can’t work out how saying that a trans person would be committing rape, a violent sexual offence of the highest order, just by not disclosing private details of their past, than I doubt you are open to listening, to be honest.
3: Trans people find themselves at risk of violence from sexual partners more than any other subgroup. They are not the purportators, they’re the victims – so much so that black, trans women in the USA have a life expectancy of 29 years. Thank about that for a minute…
No doubt about it, it's a disgraceful statistic. Why is it then that a group at risk of such violence openly encourage and threaten violence themselves towards others including assault, rape and murder of people who dare question and/or debate aspects of their trans rights movement?
Because cyclists always run red lights
rachel
If if you can’t work out how saying that a trans person would be committing rape, a violent sexual offence of the highest order, just by not disclosing private details of their past, than I doubt you are open to listening, to be honest.
rape doesn't have to be violent and the description of rape or sexual assault is clear - without informed consent. I also didn't say having sex with a trans person would be committing rape either. I replied to a hypothetical question that someone posed.
I posted the law and there has also been precedent in the courts with the case noted above. If you as a trans person and don't disclose your past then you open up the possibility of someone not being able to give their [b]informed[/b] consent to the physical encounter. Without that consent then it could be considered rape or sexual assault under the current law.
surely you would want to be open about yourself to anyone that you want to be intimate with anyway so this shouldn't be an issue.
Well the law might say its rape, but I don't agree. I don't think its fair or legal, but rape is a bit strong. I think the sanctions from both "sides" are often too strong. I think homophobes should be convinced not fired or ostracized. Trans people ought to be honest about their past, thats it really,
It’s dissapointing to see that one of our own STWers has been upset by some of the comments, despite a sensible nudge from the mods to keep it respectful. As displayed recently in magnificent fashion we can show amazing camaraderie as a community - why is it different here.
I’ve nothing really constructive to add other than I feel like I’ve learned a few things from reading and thinking about some the points being raised, and argued against which is surely a good thing...
RM.
It is sad when nature doesn't get things right, but you can't change your biological sex, and I don't think it is wrong to only want sexual relations with those of an opposite biological sex. Same as I don't think it is wrong to only want sexual relations with those of the same biological sex, or to not give a monkey's and do whatever with *whoever.
*Not with monkeys though, that would be nonconcensual and wrong.
If you as a trans person and don’t disclose your past then you open up the possibility of someone not being able to give their informed consent to the physical encounter.
I don't want to sleep with someone if they've slept with someone else because I think that's icky, another man's penis has been in there all squirty like, eurgh*. So if I sleep with someone and then find out afterwards that she wasn't a virgin, have I just been raped? I also don't consent to sleeping with someone with an STD, so I'll be straight round to the police station if I catch chlamydia.
You don't half talk some bollocks sometimes.
If on the other hand you'd gone "hey, were you born a man?" they went "no" so you slept with them and then later found out that they'd lied then you might have a sliver of a point, there was intention to mislead you. (But if you did that you'd probably never get any anyway so it's probably moot.)
(* - for the hard of thinking this isn't true, it's an analogy.)
It is not a good analogy though is it. The point here is that some people feel that m > f transition does not make the transitioner a real woman. So that a sexual liasion based on non disclosure of that fact would be making them unwittingly engage in sex with a man. You have stated earlier that you believe m>f transitioners are women, so you are cool with it. Others are not, such is the variety of human choice.
The point here is that some people feel that m > f transition does not make the transitioner a real woman.
While this opinion may change in the future, I suspect this is what the vast majority believe right now. Don't have any numbers to back that up, but I'd be interested to know if anyone disagrees. Probably a higher degree of 'acceptance' (in regard to the terminology) within the younger community.
Some of the comments on this thread are not some of STW's finest work unfortunately.
Like Rachel, I'd not come back to it for a while as there is some pretty upsetting stuff posted and I don't really need that but...
Lets say a child was born "male", identified as female all through childhood, was put on hormone blockers before puberty, took female hormones so went through puberty as female and completed surgery. Wind the clock on 30 years and you ended up in bed with them. Would you really call rape? On someone who has only ever identified as female, never gone through puberty as male, lived their whole life as female and probably doesn't even often think about the nightmare that was their childhood?
Personally the physical traits I find attractive are face, hair, legs etc. Never occurred to me to question the attractiveness of a chromosome.
BTW as previously disclosed on here I identify as trans-fluid, even more confusing to try and explain - even to myself!
I suspect this is what the vast majority believe right now. Don’t have any numbers to back that up, but I’d be interested to know if anyone disagrees.
I disagree (I'm 52 not sure if that puts me in your 'younger community' or not).
Maybe rather than just saying stuff like 'the vast majority' do some research, find out. Someone's already posted on here that some of the attitudes expressed have upset them - why just tip more supposition and prejudice into the thread?
Wind the clock on 30 years and you ended up in bed with them. Would you really call rape?
For me personally yes because I wouldn’t have given my informed consent to be sexually touched by someone who is male that has a gender identify of a woman.
I disagree (I’m 52 not sure if that puts me in your ‘younger community’ or not).
To confirm: Do you disagree personally that 'm > f transition does not make the transitioner a real woman', or disagree about what I believe the 'majority' think? Again to confirm, I wasn't expressing my personal opinion, rather what I see and believe from people around me (and the media etc). Important distinction that I'm not sure you understood.
Younger community was under 20, so you are a long way out :-).
I'm not thrilled that the 'majority' voted for Brexit, but it happened. Plenty of examples where the majority are arguably uninformed and wrong. Burying your head in the sand won't make that go away though.
the ‘majority’ voted for Brexit
37% of eligible voters voted for Brexit, less than 25% of the UK population. So it didn't happen.
[edit] my point is that saying 'everyone I know' or 'the vast majority' is anecdotal and often misleading - even stuff like the Brexit vote you need to look beneath the surface at the actual numbers not rely on some headline '52% of the UK voted for Brexit' bollocks.
I'm not goign to get all JHJ with links but this is a sensitive subject and wading in with under informed comments and assertions doesn't help anyone.
I also don’t consent to sleeping with someone with an STD, so I’ll be straight round to the police station if I catch chlamydia.
There is case law and precedent depending on the circumstances - https://www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidance/intentional-or-reckless-sexual-transmission-infection.
Yes, but that kinda disproves your ‘rape’ point; that crime linked to is NOT rape, and there is actual physical harm to the victim. Not an accurate analogy.
For me personally yes because I wouldn’t have given my informed consent to be sexually touched by someone who is male that has a gender identify of a woman.
Wow. Just wow. I guess if the blinkers are on that tightly no further sensible discussion is possible.
Just to clarify, though the person in the example is not male. They were just born with ****ed chromosomes.
v8ninety and atlas feel that anyone not wanting to bang a trans person is a homophobe
This pisses me off. I’ve been criticised (probably correctly) for being high horsey on this thread, but this is what frustrates me. AT NO POINT have I suggested any such thing; it’s far more nuanced than this. What can make someone prejudiced (homophope is the wrong terminology and I have not used it) is the reasons that they decide why they don’t want to ‘bang’ someone. And as that is a purely personal thing, only the individual can know. That is, UNTIL you tell everyone about your reasons on an Internet forum, and then it’s perfectly reasonable for people to tell you that you are prejudiced.
The point here is that some people feel that m > f transition does not make the transitioner a real woman
If you mean biologically female, then no it doesn't. It is why the term "trans-sexual" was dropped in favour of trans-gender. It was an oxymoron. Vice versa also.
There is no 100% correct answer here as we're starting with a problem that cannot be 100% fixed. Like most things it is probably best to refer to life rule #1: *don't be a dick about it.
*Less misandristic terms are available.
37% of eligible voters voted for Brexit, less than 25% of the UK population. So it didn’t happen.
Just pedantic. More voters voted leave than stay. Of those that voted, more voted for leave. Is that specific enough for you? Point remains exactly the same. If you asked everyone in the UK their opinion on 'm > f transition does not make the transitioner a real woman’, what do you think the outcome would be?
my point is that saying ‘everyone I know’ or ‘the vast majority’ is anecdotal and often misleading
That's why we are discussing it, rather than stating a fact. My original statement:
While this opinion may change in the future, I suspect this is what the vast majority believe right now.
I even asked what other people thought. You would rather not discuss it at all? I believe it is a real issue, and not something to be brushed under the carpet.
For me personally yes because I wouldn’t have given my informed consent to be sexually touched by someone who is male that has a gender identify of a woman.
Fortunately, the law as is stands doesn't recognise your view as legitimate. The "case law" you cite doesn't apply because it reflects a completely different circumstance - sex by deception. If you asked, and someone lied, then your feelings might be justified but if you don't ask then that's on you. And if you do ask, the question is probably so off-putting that you won't be having sex.
If you asked everyone in the UK their opinion on ‘m > f transition does not make the transitioner a real woman’, what do you think the outcome would be?
I would need a "don't know" option because I am torn over the issue. But I recognise that as my problem and would want a society where trans folk can get on and live whatever life they want. Personally, I find it hard to be so binary about things. Is F the same as Trans-F, is pre-op (or pre-treatment) the same as post-op? It all gets so complex when you try to define what people are on the basis of a limited number of labels.
Actually I may have been a bit harsh in my last post.
You seem to believe that your chromosomes determine your gender. They don't. They determine which sexual organs you are born with. Usually this coincides with your gender but sometimes it doesn't.
When you understand this, we can move on.
v8nnety - fair point you didn't say homophobe, but you kinda alluded to it, if you didn't mean it then I accept that you didn't.
I don't mind though, you are correct if you say stuff on a forum expect people to disagree, and if you feel I'm prejudiced thats your perogative. My prejudice is common, in that I don't fancy men or want to fancy men, I dabbled a teeny bit when I was younger, pissed or pilled up and felt that it wasn't for me. I have some detailed thoughts and reasons behind this but they are probs a bit too personal for here, but I am always happy to to discuss this stuff amongst friends so perhaps we can talk about it over a pint one day.
I don't fancy men or want to, and I feel that despite the hormones and surgery that inside an M>F trans person is man, so I would prefer to know if someone has transitioned or not. I kinda feel like your saying my prejudice against sex with an M>F is that I am prejudiced against being gay, which I accept is true, it is in your words social conditioning. I personally believe that we should shuffle up and make room for each others personal prejudices. Lesbians don't want to have sex with blokes, gays don't want to have sex with women, other people are bi/fluid whatever, they are all prejudices. I am happy with them to be honest, in the words of Osgood Fielding the 3rd. "Nobody's perfect."
Atlaz said that people hang on to labels too much, if you fancy them then that is all that counts regardless of gender or whatever. I could not agree with that more, it is correct. So why then does anyone need to change gender? Its just a label right, wear what you want, **** who you want. What is troubling for me is that we do need to drop the labels to stop people from being forced into one gender or another, but then the whole trans movement enforces the new labels harder than most, - cougar is insistent that M>F is a woman, he is enforcing the label, the M>F trans people I know take up their feminine role very strongly, stronger than my wife, who never wears heels or makeup, stronger than many women I know. I think it undermines the support we should be giving people who are not binary about gender.
In fact many women I know say "oh I am me first, the woman thing is societies label for me."
Its the way I want to see other people, so I can treat them all equally.
You seem to believe that your chromosomes determine your gender. They don’t.
I don't think we really know this, not least because we don't really know what gender is. And we don't really understand the full effect of all of the transitioning processes. You should be cautious that you are not being just as binary/black and white as those you oppose.
I am prejudiced against being gay, which I accept is true,
So, as a thought experiment: with that sentiment in mind, what if you were in fact gay? How would you feel?
The M>F trans people I know take up their feminine role very strongly, stronger than my wife, who never wears heels or makeup, stronger than many women I know.
/me Looks at self, notices she is wearing Converse, jeans and a tshirt. No make-up, short hair. Sat writing code stuff for her open source dev job. Wonders exactly what “takes up their feminine role very strongly” actually means... 🤔
edit - oh - my tshirt is the Django “Code like a girl” one - maybe that’s it!!
Rachel
You seem to believe that your chromosomes determine your gender. They don’t
just as well I said sex then isn’t it.
Fortunately, the law as is stands doesn’t recognise your view as legitimate. The “case law” you cite doesn’t apply because it reflects a completely different circumstance – sex by deception
Which is what not telling someone you are trans amounts to if the person doesn’t want to have sex with someone who is trans.
Wow. Just wow. I guess if the blinkers are on that tightly no further sensible discussion is possible.
Why wow? I don’t ever want to be sexually intimate with a man, a male or transperson. That is my choice. I really don’t see how that is blinkered.
Apologies Rachel.That was a logical error on my part. I should have really said not all, and have a responsibility to say not all.
Looks at self, notices she is wearing Converse, jeans and a tshirt. No make-up, short hair. Sat writing code stuff for her open source dev job. Wonders exactly what “takes up their feminine role very strongly” actually means
Cougar I have thought about it in the past and decided I wasn't. So I can't imagine what it would feel like to be gay, so I can't comment. I do really love some men I know, my friends, but they don't make me anywhere near as horny as my wife or Christina Hendricks.
With that in mind I don't think it would be possible for me to be gay, I wouldn't want to exclude women from my sexual delusions. Its feasible for me to be bi, or pansexual, but blokes generally don't do it for me. I am not particularly masculine and I don't feel "male" I don't really know what that is or should feel like, but I do prefer the ladies, sorry.
And you?
For me personally yes because I wouldn’t have given my informed consent to be sexually touched by someone who is male that has a gender identify of a woman.
@poah, I ask again, please define "female" (or "male", either works). It's much trickier than you'd think.
Lunge, Surely that definition starts with the chromosomes and probably falls over not long after.
@5plusn8, it may start with it but that's not where it ends, and that's the point. As mentioned previously, there were/are a good few female models who are XY not XX for example. Where do you do next?
I've been enjoying reading this thread and its certainly made me question what I think and feel about this whole thing of gender reassignment from male to female. Thats got to be a good thing surely?
Bringing it down to a more basic level, is it any different from fancying a woman because she is blond when in actual fact she dyes her hair and is actually a natural brunette?
Being honest here, I don't really know how I'd feel about finding out a woman I'd had sex with was originally physically a man after the act. For me sex is more than just the physical act, there has to be an emotional connection, which in itself is probably a little different from the normal, "led by his dick" attitude that a lot of men have. So I'd hope that would be enough to overcome any preconceptions I may have as a result of my social conditioning.
As I said, it falls over after that, there is no end. Fnnaar.
For most of us socially conditioned or not, we fancy someone who lands around the "norm" of the opposite sex. Is this wrong?
For me sex is more than just the physical act, there has to be an emotional connection, which in itself is probably a little different from the normal, “led by his dick” attitude that a lot of men have.
I wonder how many men really have this attitude, or just want other men to think so... Perhaps you are just a bit more honest.
For most of us socially conditioned or not, we fancy someone who lands around the “norm” of the opposite sex. Is this wrong?
Nah, of course not, fancy who you fancy, sleep with who you wish (with consent, obviously). I guess the thing I'm trying to get my head around is why, if you fancy someone and they land around the "norm", why it would then bother someone if it turned out their past is different to what you expected? I mean, you still fancy them, there is still a connection, what's the problem?
It is not a problem per se - I would just be disappointed if I had not been informed. I feel we all have a responsibility to be honest with each other. My nephew is autistic, he is 15 and if you met him you would think he is a massive ****. But when you discover he is autistic you make some latitude for him, realise that you were pretty prejudiced against 15 year old male teenagers (its ok we all are) and he is easier to deal with All because of your change in attitude, and his relatives responsibility to inform so that nothing goes tits up.
Autism is outside the normal space of behaviour but we have all come to recognise that its equally valid and welcome, but because its an outlier and we all rely somewhat on prejudice to get by we need to inform about it. I feel the same about trans, nobody has the right to say someone else is not valid, but it is outside the norm, so take responsibility for your self and when necessary (which lets face it isn't often) inform.
So I’d hope that would be enough to overcome any preconceptions I may have as a result of my social conditioning.
It's not social conditioning for a bloke (with testes) to fancy a bird (with ovaries). That's an instinct due to the necessity to reproduce.
Personally I have no desire to reproduce, though the instinct to have sex with the opposite sex remains. Until I meet and fancy a transperson I'm not sure how I'd feel.
Actually, I'd probably feel the tits, arse and fanny safe in the knowledge that there is no danger of any little sbobs nine months down the line. 😆
I'll not tie a knot around use of the word "normal" to score Internet Points but, what you're describing here is just numbers. Perhaps "common" or "majority" is more appropriate.
Autism is only really a problem because it's "different." If people on the ASD spectrum were "the norm" then we'd probably have support groups for those who are currently viewed as neurotypical.
I mean normal in the statistical sense, so no points required. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Normal_distribution. Exactly, the norm is just what is most common. Humans are pattern recognition machines, we find normals and work off them for brevity, hence why we all have a responsibility to point out outliers that we wish included.
I raised some other more pressing points perhaps you would like to address them. How would you feel if you were gay, or straight or whatever? I would hope that the answer is just "normal" as society these days thankfully accepts all comers.
I’m gonna put my hand up to playground level homophobia or whatever you want to call it. Just because the law recognizes someone as a female does not make them necessarily female in my personal contact preferences.
Homophobia is an issue with what other people do with their sex organs and practice. If I don’t want to have sex with someone who used to be a man the only person that affects is me. Call it what you like but no law is going to compel one person to have sex with another, Sounds like I am a homophobe then. I can live with that, as long as I don’t force other people to have or not have sex then I am happy with your definition of me as a homophobe.
This sums my opinion up well.
I’ll just point out that I wouldn’t actively throw negative comments about anyone who fits in these categories.
I can’t imagine what it would feel like to be gay, so I can’t comment.
My point was, you said you were prejudiced against being gay. What I was getting at was, what if by a quirk of genetics you happened to be something you were prejudiced against?
And you?
I have no such prejudice, so it's kind of a moot point. If I were then I imagine that growing up in East Lancashire in the 80s and 90s would have been an exceptionally challenging time but as an adult I'd like to think that I'd have dealt with it and embraced it.
I think that given a choice, I wouldn't want to be gay. Having to deal with bigoted asshats in society aside, girls have all sorts of lovely bits to play with that would otherwise be denied to me. And if I wanted to play with boy bits, well, I already own those.
Being bi would probably be the best of both worlds as you've got unlimited options then, so I suppose that would be my choice in a game of "pick your own sexuality." But I'm 100% straight by dint of nature and have never had even the slightest sexual leanings towards the male of the species. I've never fathomed what girls (or anyone else) sees in boys in the first place, we're horrible sweaty farty creatures.
I raised some other more pressing points perhaps you would like to address them.
Give me a chance to type, man!
you said you were prejudiced against being gay
This is a bit bait and switch. All I said was I am not gay so I don't want to have sex with men. Other people called me prejudiced so i jumped on the grenade. By their definition you are also prejudiced against being gay. Because you are straight. I was just using other peoples words they applied to me. My point is I am not gay, I don't fancy blokes and by my definition an M>F trans is still a bloke, so sex with them would be outside of my wants. The only differences then between you and me is you think an M>F trans is a woman, I don't, and by my account I've fondled another lads bits once and you haven't, it helped me to inform myself about by own sexuality.
(My problem is that I often meet what people try to insult me with, with acceptance of the insult, call me prejudiced, well yeah fine if it fits your definition then I am, I wont get emotional about it, lets discuss it instead, its healthier)
sweaty farty creatures.
You've not met my other half (female) then.
This is very simple.
Does anyone treat their gay / lesbian friends differently to their straight friends? My neighbour is a Trans person, I give him a nod and say 'hey man' to him when I see him on the street, I don't know what he identifies as because he keeps himself to himself and we've never chatted, but I do my best to acknowledge him as he's a person. The same as I say 'morning' to dog walkers.
Actually, I invited him to a BBQ last weekend, he didn't come, the crossdressing bastard.
They're all just people, if you want to bang somebody just make sure they feel similarly.
My point is I am not gay
Fine
I don’t fancy blokes
Still fine
and by my definition an M>F trans is still a bloke, so sex with them would be outside of my wants.
What's your definition? If you are attracted to the female form, and this individual matches your type - you probably fancy them. If you get talking and hit it off then you probably fancy them a bit more. Then they tell you they used to be male. What exactly would put you off fancying them? Nothing physical has changed, nor has their personality - they've been up front with you. The only thing that has changed is in your own head.
I’d imagine it would depend if the person was looking to have a relationship or just a bit of fun. If the attraction is strong enough to mean the former is a possibility i’d say a little more has changed.
The only thing that has changed is in your own head.
Well renowned most powerful erogenous zone. He is a man.
The only thing that has changed is in your own head.
Well renowned most powerful erogenous zone. He is a man.
Lets say that science invents body transplants, and shortly after Christina Hendricks suffers a massive stroke and dies but the brain of this transgender individual is transplanted into her body. You meet her, get along great, she tells you she used to have a male body but she had a brain transplant. How do you react?
Oh now this is getting interesting. So, you’ve met someone - you find them attractive based on their body (all of it), their conversation etc etc and then you find out they are trans. So, what is it you are turned off by?
1) what you personally think
2) what you are scared other people might think of you?
I’m beginning to think it might be (2)...
I think that given a choice, I wouldn’t want to be gay. Having to deal with bigoted asshats in society aside, girls have all sorts of lovely bits to play with that would otherwise be denied to me. And if I wanted to play with boy bits, well, I already own those.
oh my lovely!
Honestly: when I realised i was gay, it was drama, and I did some stupid ass stuff. now? I'm as happy as a lop, I get to play with all sorts of lovely bits that would otherwise be denied to me...Could it be that we just all agree that girl bits are just nice to play with? haha
anyway, for what it's worth Trans people are about as brave as it comes in my book, forget soldiers and all that shit, trying to get people to accept you for who "you" actually are, seems to be the hardest thing in the world, my life is a piece of cake by comparison
There are some older gay women i've met who have some radical stuff in their heads, mostly because of the pressure they faced as gay women in the 50's or 60's or whatever, I think. They were told, mostly by men, what they could and couldn't do. Some of those women see my generation as having it easy and somehow "betraying" the fight that they went through. To them having a Trans tell them about what they "can and can't" bang smacks of the same patriarchy they've faced for a long time. Me?...if you're getting juicy, then go for it, right?
she tells you she used to have a male body but she had a brain transplant. How do you react?
I'd think "does this technically count as a threesome? get in" 🙂
Given that all of us have an element of Neanderthal and other hominid DNA in us, it clearly shows that Humans will happily mate with other (similar) species . So whats the big deal about what bits or lack thereof someone has? Gender is such a fluid thing I cant believe that we in the west still get so hung up about it. Hell, in various civilizations there were a number of recognized genders rather than stupid bible based binary silliness. the Native Americans happily had the "two spirit" principal and practiced same sex marriages and joinings without any bias at all. Such a shame that culturally we went for the puritanical instead.
So - as this thread has gone a bit off topic - with lots of people's prejudice floating around, a question, to all those who are saying they don't want to have sex with M>F trans...
You meet someone, you don't know they've changed genders. You click, like no-one you've ever met before, you have the best laugh, the best time in their company. You also think they're hugely attractive. You end up sleeping together, you have the best, most mind blowing sexual experience of you life. Not just by a little bit, this is screaming the house down with pleasure mind blowing.
They then tell you they used to be a man, there's no other signs of their previous gender, other than their confession. No one else you know, knows, or will ever find out...
Do you continue your relationship or cut off your nose to spite your face?
I suspect allthegear has nailed it -
2) what you are scared other people might think of you?
I’m beginning to think it might be (2)…
How authentic is a post op mini? Asking for a friend
An Austin, BL, Rover or BMW one?
Rachel
Oh now this is getting interesting. So, you’ve met someone – you find them attractive based on their body (all of it), their conversation etc etc and then you find out they are trans. So, what is it you are turned off by?
1) what you personally think
2) what you are scared other people might think of you?
I’m beginning to think it might be (2)…
Have you read any of my posts? Do you think I am scared of what people might think of me? I have revealed all kinds of personal shit that really only you Rachel have been as candid. Also not once have I dared to stray into "what gay/trans/lesbian people think" territory which is standard male white gay curing homophobes. Its none of my business and not something anyone can know. So don't presume to think you know what I think other than my honesty.
Cougar isn't gay, he hasn't even admitted to at least trying, I have. Why are you not giving him shit? If I was single and informed and on a one night stand maybe I would try it (I doubt it given what I know about myself) , but it would be in the same box as my previous gay experimentation. Just to note, men do not make me horny, I know I've tried, so I am not in a position to know if I am ashamed of my gayness as you assume.
Do you continue your relationship or cut off your nose to spite your face?
FFS this is getting stupid, I was talking of one night stands, do you think I value one quick shag so much?
In my 20's I had a relationship with a girl who was stunning, blew my mind with her mind and we really clicked. Over about 6 weeks we spent every minute together. As I actually got to know her I discovered she was narcissistic and all of her mental concepts were received wisdom, in the end I actually really disliked her and couldn't wait to end it. .
Love is just a chemical trick initially anyway. I have been with my wife for 25 years and our love has grown stronger. I tell the kids this all the time when they want to ask about what love is. It takes time to build a solid relationship. The concept of "falling in love at first sight" is just dangerous bollocks.
So I think in the end I would only be able to see the person as a man. Same with the Hendricks thing someone proposed. I think the feminists call it lived experience? The mind is probably the most attractive thing about anyone, and someone who has lived as a man, I don't know if I could ignore that.
I was talking of hypothetical one night stands, and as I said many times, my worst reaction would be a bit of disappointment perhaps anger. But I am not claiming rape and I have disclaimed that here, its just a preference. I would prefer to know. I don't see why this is a big deal.
They then tell you they used to be a man, there’s no other signs of their previous gender, other than their confession.
So they have been through puberty and lived as a man? Doubt they'll not be any other signs then. You may as well fling in they had a jackpot winning euromillions ticket as well then if you're going to make up bullshit scenarios.
You meet someone, you don’t know they’ve changed genders.
It’ll be pretty damn obvious once you’ve sobered up.
It's a funny old place, is the STW forum.
On the one hand we have the Gnusmas thread which has raised North of seven grand for a forum member in need.
And on the other, well, here we are. Bloody hell.
And you are right here in the middle of it.
So, what is it you are turned off by?
the fact they weren't born with a vagina would be the turn off.
I get that you don't want to sleep with a trans woman. I don't like it but I get it.
What is unacceptable to me is that you'd claim rape if she didn't tell you.
What I don't understand is why the m>f trans seem so reticent to just be happy to let potential partnes know? As with my autism example, Ibthink you have a responsibility to be transparent so personal decision are informed. What is wrong with that?
You don't understand a situation that you've just invented in order to argue that you're not able to understand it? Who's being reticent about anything here?
I'm on the spectrum too. If dating, I'd bring it up if and when if became relevant. My opening gambit wouldn't be "hi, nice to meet you, my name's Alan and I'm Aspie."
I'm also vegetarian, a staunch remainer and have no truck with organised religion. Should that be my second sentence? I totally wouldn't want to shag a creationist brexiter.
I get that you don’t want to sleep with a trans woman. I don’t like it but I get it.
What is unacceptable to me is that you’d claim rape if she didn’t tell you.
Why don't you like it that someone doesn't want to have sex with a trans person? That is their personal choice and the fact you don't like it is quite disturbing.
I think not being able to give informed consent is unacceptable.
I don't want to have sex with a blonde. That's my personal choice. Should I expect a brunette to go "hey, BTW, I dye my hair" before climbing into bed with me? Shit, I've been raped!
Its not the situation, its just one aspect of the trans response to the situation. Thas your first fallacy. The rest of that sentence makes no sense. Its a shame to see you struggling Cougar. Your logic is normally pretty good.
Being blonde is not the same as being a different sex to the one you present.
That whole 'lesbian not queer' banner the protestors were holding up? They're disagreeing with this sort of thing:
https://www.autostraddle.com/how-to-have-trans-woman-lesbian-sex-with-a-penis-414839/
You lot all need to losen the fk up.
Id recommend an orgy, swingers night or better still a trip to Torture Garden.
You don't even have to join in, just expand your mind a bit & enjoy the show.
Taste the rainbow guys & gals & if you're wearing a gimp mask no one need ever know it was you....