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I'd never heard of Get the L out until this weekend.
Their statement this weekend seemed Bat S. Mental but a quick google for more serious debate suggests they may have a point. (Not a point that seems to have struck a cord with many lesbians looking at the lack of success of the petition.)
It's an interesting point though. I have two trans friends who both found that gender and sexuality are completely separate, and they should know. As a result of that I've thought recently that the T in LGBT was a bit out of place but I hadn't really thought about the consequence that by the time you include people with male genitalia who identify as female, the LGBT movement does seem a bit like an organisation mainly aimed at promoting "men's" rights, in which case maybe it's the L that is really out of place. Then if a significant number of women have male genitalia (google suggests 1pc, and in my own workplace/circle of friends it's pushing 5pc - all previous males identifying as women) then where does that leave lesbians?
I'm not sure this is all as straightforward as it seemed to me at first.
This may come as a shock but there are people with female genetalia that identify as men
The idea that an LGBT group, no matter how small (and it is) would think it acceptable to spread messages of hate against any other LGBT group is abhorrent. Without unity, we are nothing
rachel
The idea that an LGBT group, no matter how small (and it is) would think it acceptable to spread messages of hate against any other LGBT group is abhorrent. Without unity, we are nothing
I can see why they think that doesn't really address their point.
There are people who were born male, still have male bodies, look male, self identify as female and are sexually attracted to females. Some of these people accuse lesbians who don't want to have sex with anyone who has a penis of being bigoted. They seem to get a lot more protection than some of the lesbians who dare speak out against this.
I note there are not many cases of people who were born male, still have male bodies, look male, self identify as female and are sexually attracted to males calling out hetrosexual males for not wanting to have sex with someone with a penis.
I wonder why...
There are people who were born male, still have male bodies, look male, self identify as female and are sexually attracted to females. Some of these people accuse lesbians who don’t want to have sex with anyone who has a penis of being bigoted. They seem to get a lot more than some of the lesbians who dare speak out against this.
I think this is the problem, its kinda killing their own fight for recognition because the thrust of any sexual freedom argument is "who the hell has any right to tell me what I can wear and what consenting adults I can get wriggly with" and then they try and tell lesbians who they can have sex with....
It's a complicated argument, because if someone didn't fancy redheads, nobody would bat an eyelid, but if they didn't fancy black girls does that make them racist?
Same issue in that heteronormative males are wrong apparently if they don't fancy mtf trans women, some of which look and smell like men. Have they not heard of pheromones?
Some people are dicks, whether they have one, want one, once had one or never want to come within 500 feet of one.
Why should it be otherwise?
People are people, being part of a minority doesn't mean that you're immune to the the same prejudices and irrationality as the rest of humanity.
Some of these people accuse lesbians who don’t want to have sex with anyone who has a penis of being bigoted
How can that be bigoted though. They don’t want to have sex with a man. I don’t want to have sex with a trans woman either. That makes me heterosexual not bigoted. It truelly is a bizzare world we live in.
Coming from a young straight man, I’m still finding the whole differences of preferences and types of gender somewhat confusing. Maybe I’m traditional more old skool in thought and actions.
However I also appreciate that people are entitled to choose whatever they want to be if categorising genres of genders and sexuality's.
Why can’t we all just get along...
There is one thing that would freak me out and that would be if say I met and had sex with a trans to find that they were in fact used to be a man without knowing. That for me would be crossing the line.
I dunno if that speaks volumes about myself and outlook as a fellow human being or just makes a simple point of the fact that I’m straight and when mating means female/s only. As nature intended for me.
PeaceOut! ✌️
I'm also confused by all this. Can someone self identify with a gender or is that fixed by nature? How much adaptation do they need to have had to qualify as the opposite gender?
Tdog, wouldn't you have in fact had sex with a female? Albeit one that had previously been male.
Or regardless of the bits they have engineered/removed post birth, are you thinking they always retain the gender they were born as?
I'll let you all into a little secret. One which many straight men seem to find completely alien as a concept.
It's nothing to do with willies.
It’s nothing to do with willies.
Sometimes it has quite a lot to do with dicks, though.
There is one thing that would freak me out and that would be if say I met and had sex with a trans to find that they were in fact used to be a man without knowing. That for me would be crossing the line
Could be considered rape of yourself by the transperson
Under Section 2 of the Sexual Offences Act 2003 it is an offence if a defendant intentionally penetrates the vagina or anus of a person, where the other person does not consent and where the defendant does not reasonably believe the other person consents.
Section 74 of the act gives the definition of consent: “A person consents for the purposes of this Act if he agrees by choice and has the freedom and capacity to make that choice.”
There is one thing that would freak me out and that would be if say I met and had sex with a trans to find that they were in fact used to be a man without knowing. That for me would be crossing the line.
Sex is a thing you participate in because you have a liking/love for your sex partner, their physical presence, their smell, they make you laugh, and many other things in between, etc.
Sometimes it has quite a lot to do with dicks, though.
Good point.
Could be considered rape of yourself by the transperson
QED.
QED
Not that you have used it correctly but I guess you want me to explain.
I am a heterosexual male, I only want to have sex with the female of the species. I would not knowingly have sex with a male pretending to be a female. Therefore in order to give my consent to sex I need to be told before hand if they have xy xchromosomes. It they don’t then I cannot willing give my consent therefore it would be considered rape - Q.E.D
with a male pretending to be a female.
Here in lies the crux of your issue, some may say prejudice. Someone who identifies as female, has completed gender reassignment and has obtained a gender reassignment certificate is female. Legally, if not genetically. If you don’t find them sexually attractive, that’s fair enough, but if you DID find them sexually attractive, until you find out about their chromosomes, then that’s NOT fair enough, and says something a little bit, err, enlightening about you.
Here in lies the crux of your issue, some may say prejudice
Or some say say male and female are biological terms. I didn’t say woman on purpose. I have no issue with anyone being or wanting to be trans but I’m not going to have sex with a male. Cutting your bits off, getting implants and taking hormones does not change your sex. The fact is that I wouldn’t give my consent to knowingly have sex with a trans woman and that’s all that is relavent. If you don’t give consent it is rape/sexual assault.
The fact is that I wouldn’t give my consent to knowingly have sex with a trans woman and that’s all that is relavent. If you don’t give consent it is rape/sexual assault.
Do you ask everyone you meet? Or should they be wearing a badge? and like the tree falling in the woods if you didn't know would it matter?
I think that's what I was getting at v8.
Has our law detached chromosome make-up from gender, which is now solely determined by choice and investment in adaptations?
Someone who identifies as female, has completed gender reassignment and has obtained a gender reassignment certificate is female.
No they are not. You cannot change a persons biological sex. You can call them a woman but they are not and never will be female. Gender and sex are two very different things.
I must admit that I read and re-read Get the L out’s quote that was on the BBC website yesterday and struggled to understand it. They need to improve their communications if they want a debate.
Can someone self identify with a gender or is that fixed by nature? How much adaptation do they need to have had to qualify as the opposite gender?
The proposals that are being debated (at least when they are allowed to be debated) are that you can self identify as any gender (eg man or woman) you want to and you will be treated and have the same access to everything as anyone else of that gender. You do not require to make any changes to your physical appearance, or any changes at all to do so. In fact you could identify as two different genders on two different days. You just need to self identify, no medical certificate required.
This could have been ok as it is not illegal to segregate services etc based on sex (male or female). Therefore one group of peoples rights would not have to be infringed by anothers. However the difference between gender and sex is being deliberately blurred and trans rights activists go after anyone who dares to try and keep the two seperate. People lose access to their social media, are hounded at their place of work so they lose their jobs, go after premises where debates are to take place so they get cancelled etc etc. It's really quite nasty.
Here in lies the crux of your issue, some may say prejudice. Someone who identifies as female, has completed gender reassignment is female. Legally, if not genetically. If you don’t find them sexually attractive, that’s fair enough, but if you DID find them sexually attractive, until you find out about their chromosomes, then that’s NOT fair enough, and says something a little bit, err, enlightening about you.
That you're heterosexual? Because nature or nurture I guarantee you the vast majority will feel this way making it a 'normal' reaction. And isn't this one of the points of the protesters?
Therefore in order to give my consent to sex I need to be told before hand if they have xy xchromosomes.
You must be a lot of fun at parties.
If someone has reassigned to a point where you have sex with them and couldn't tell, why would it matter beyond latent homophobia? You're viewing the partner as a bloke playing silly buggers rather than a woman for whom biology initially got wrong.
You cannot change a persons biological sex. You can call them a woman but they are not and never will be female.
Sure you can. As a single example, there's plenty of historical cases where children have been born of indeterminate sex due to development issues and have been assigned one by doctors / surgeons. What if they got it wrong?
you can self identify as any gender (eg man or woman) you want to and you will be treated and have the same access to everything as anyone else of that gender. You do not require to make any changes to your physical appearance, or any changes at all to do so. In fact you could identify as two different genders on two different days.
Except, that never happens, it's a straw man. Someone waking up thinking "I'll be a boy / girl today" isn't TG, though they may arguably by TV. (Cf. Eddie Izzard.) This whole 'self-identification' argument is misdirection, like I could self-identify as a cheese sandwich if I wanted, it doesn't mean I'd go well with a side salad.
As an analogy: you could theoretically self-identify as straight one day and gay the next. Realistically, do you think that's something you (or anyone) would be likely to do; maybe waking up on day and think "yeah, I fancy a bit of gaying this afternoon." Or rather, is fancying women or men (or both) simply how you are regardless of whether you have a cock or not?
What if a not very attractive woman had a lot of work done and looked stunning (accepting that of course beauty is in the eye of the beholder)? Would that somehow be rape too?
I can't see how you would give a flying monkey's crap if you fancied them and didn't notice until after, unless you wanted kids. Which isn't an issue for lesbians. Or is a universal issue maybe would be a better way to put it.
Ideally any T would say so, but it's just not the most important thing is it?
Except, that never happens, it’s a straw man.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/05/23/fluid-gender-policeman/
Are you denying gender fluidity?
though they may arguably by TV. (Cf. Eddie Izzard.)
Eddie Izzard the transgender? I believe calling transgender people transvestites is highly offensive.
Are you denying gender fluidity?
No, I'm saying it's not the same thing.
Eddie Izzard the transgender? I believe calling transgender people transvestites is highly offensive.
Eddie Izzard isn't TG. Nice try though. He refers to himself as an "action transvestite."
Lol, do try and keep up sunshine.
self Identify as a gender
This phrase does have me thinking about myself. Do I actually self identify as a gender? I don't know if I do. I self identify as me. I look down and see there is knob; look in the mirror and see a typical male body. I'm also exclusively attracted to women. But these all seem pretty low value items to me. What really makes me me is my personality, my skillet and my likes and dislikes. If I looked down one day and suddenly I was atypically female shaped I think I be less freaked out than if my personality suddenly changed irreconcilably. One is just is just a physical/mechanical thing whilst the other is much much deeper imo.
In nature it’s not quite as clear cut as XY male, XX female. Have look at https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Complete_androgen_insensitivity_syndrome and other sex chromosome variability.
I remember my genetics lecturer explaining that statistically XY ‘females’ were over represented in models due to the typical body type. Is it still rape if you get lucky with an XY model with CAIS without knowing?
That you’re heterosexual? Because nature or nurture I guarantee you the vast majority will feel this way making it a ‘normal’ reaction.
Normal reaction. Common reaction. Does this automatically mean correct reaction? ‘Heterosexual’ refers to a series of physical and behavioural cues that you are sexually attracted to. It has nothing directly to do with chromosomes, except that one set of chromosomes make it more likely for an individual to demonstrate those cues than the other. If you can accept that you ‘could’ fancy an attractive transgender female without knowing that she is transgender, to admit that you’d be horrified that she used to have male sex characteristics is just playground level prejudice (common or not) and you really should take a look at yourselves. Seriously. There’s all sorts of parallels with how people used to react to finding out someone was gay 20 years ago. That was a common reaction once, too.
Do you ask everyone you meet?
Never asked but I would expect a trans person to tell me they were trans just like if someone knew they had hiv they should tell you before things were to get physical so you could make an informed consent. I am not gay so have no interest in being physical with another person of the same sex.
If someone has reassigned to a point where you have sex with them and couldn’t tell, why would it matter beyond latent homophobia?
Being heterosexual is not being scared of homosexuals. It would matter because I don’t want to have sex with a male. That it is only thing that is relavent. If you were blindfolded and a man sucked you off would you not care given that you couldn’t tell it was a male.
I'm gonna put my hand up to playground level homophobia or whatever you want to call it. Just because the law recognizes someone as a female does not make them necessarily female in my personal contact preferences.
Homophobia is an issue with what other people do with their sex organs and practice. If I don't want to have sex with someone who used to be a man the only person that affects is me. Call it what you like but no law is going to compel one person to have sex with another, Sounds like I am a homophobe then. I can live with that, as long as I don't force other people to have or not have sex then I am happy with your definition of me as a homophobe.
If you can accept that you ‘could’ fancy an attractive transgender female without knowing that she is transgender, to admit that you’d be horrified that she used to have male sex characteristics is just playground level prejudice (common or not) and you really should take a look at yourselves.
What if they did still have male sex characteristics? Would you accept you were a bigot if you refused to have sex with them on that basis?
What if they did still have male sex characteristics?
What are they then?
tell me they were trans just like if someone knew they had hiv they should tell you before things were to get physical
Whoa right there. Did you really conflate a persons personal gender history with a serious communicable disease? WTactualF??? Do you think you’re going to catch gay or something?!? Jeez.
Call it what you like but no law is going to compel one person to have sex with another,
Good lord. No one is forcing anyone to have sex with anyone. Just **** who you fancy so long as they fancy **** ing you too. Simple. And don’t get all hung up on details that you wouldn’t otherwise know about. I think this is a massive pointless argument anyway because no transgender person is going to go anywhere near someone demonstrating prejudices such as these. It’s not sexy!
What if they did still have male sex characteristics? Would you accept you were a bigot if you refused to have sex with them on that basis?
Then I presume you wouldn’t fancy them and the whole discussion is moot.
Would it be ok to have sex with someone after giving them the impression that you were a fellow protester, when in fact you were an undercover policeman?
No one is forcing anyone to have sex with anyone.
No? What is guilt tripping, bullying or social conditioning them into it then?
Then I presume you wouldn’t fancy them and the whole discussion is moot.
You might want to take a look at the issue raised in the OP again then.
I wouldn't worry, straight women stopped fancying me a long time ago too.
I was being facile, its not prejudice, it's personal,preference.
Never asked but I would expect a trans person to tell me they were trans just like if someone knew they had hiv they should tell you
You do realise that you can't catch "trans," right? I mean, you're seriously not that dim?
I am not gay so have no interest in being physical with another person of the same sex.
And someone who is M>F trans is not the same sex as you. They're a woman, it's not just a bloke in a frock.
That.
Is.
The.
Point.
For fox' sake.
I was being facile, its not prejudice, it’s personal,preference.
It becomes prejudice when you change your opinion based not on the characteristics of a person, but because of their chromosomes.
Also, point of order, with my <mod> hat on just for a moment and not directed at anyone in particular,
There are trans people who are members of this forum here. Please bear this in mind and try and show some basic human empathy in your posts.
Thank you.
</mod>
Saw them at Pride, All a bit weird really, but I guess everyone needs a hobby. They were made to march on front of the parade like naughty school kids.
But...there's plenty of people who think the whole "community LBGT thing" is bogus anyway.
This is from a reddit sub, and it pretty much sums up ALOT of views on it.
rather than campaigning to get the T out of LGBT, the L should leave and create their own women-only movement. I don’t see the logic of women aligning themselves with a bunch of dude-bros which comprise all of the G, the majority of the B, and don’t even get me started on the T. It simply makes no practical sense.
Personally I'm all mleh about it. Oh and if you're lucky enough that someone want to bang* you, you're really going to start asking them if they used to be something else👍good luck with that
* yeah, bang.. It's my new favourite word for it..
You are born with what you have and that’s that, unfortunately for some. If you need surgery to make you look like what you feel it can hardly be classed as natural. If women, lesbian or not don’t want to share facilities or have a relationship with a bloke who doesn’t want to be a bloke that should be fine.
I support anyone living however they want to but if you decide to live a certain way don’t be surprised if not everyone else is quite as understanding. It doesn’t make you or them wrong.
And someone who is M>F trans is not the same sex as you.
Yes they really are.
Oh, and the more letters that are added to lgbt-etc it stands to reason that it will become less representative of the group. Why should a gay man or woman relate to a transgender person? Smacks of lumping them all in together. They might do but they have just as much right not to.
<span style="font-size: 0.8rem;">And someone who is M>F trans is not the same sex as you. They’re a woman, it’s not just a bloke in a frock.</span>
That.
Is.
The.
Point.
For fox’ sake.
However, isn’t one of the key arguments being made by sectors of the Trans community at the moment in favour of allowing people to self define their legal gender - in which case there is nothing that would require them to be anything more than, as you put it, ‘a bloke in a frock’
Why should a gay man or woman relate to a transgender person?
Oh I don’t know. What experiences could they possibly have in common, in this open, unprejudiced and welcoming world?
Or some say say male and female are biological terms.
Yes but as mentioned they are not the only biological terms. There are lots of other ways to be intersex to varying degrees - both naturally and via medical technology.
There's really not much point in coming up with hypothetical scenarios and defining your behaviour according to them. Because guess what - we're all individuals. Why can't you just take life as it comes? The woman of your dreams might be trans. Who knows, if I weren't married the person of my dreams might turn out to be a man. Or maybe there are many people of my dreams and maybe I don't want to have sex with all of them.
In short, stop being an arse and just roll with it.
PS I wish I could wear a skirt in this weather. I wish you could get skirts for men that didn't make you look like a wannabe Scot.
Smacks of lumping them all in together. They might do but they have just as much right not to.
Again; I don’t think anyone is proposing to round up the LGBTs and make them live together in one happy community. It’s entirely voluntary to participate in LGBT events.
Oh I don’t know. What experiences could they possibly have in common, in this open, unprejudiced and welcoming world?
That’s absolutely not the point. Why should a gay man or women or a straight trans person automatically be defined as the other? They may want to be but by surely they have the right to differentiate themselves? The simpleton answer is to class anyone not ‘normal’ as a group of ‘others’.
And someone who is M>F trans is not the same sex as you. They’re a woman, it’s not just a bloke in a frock.
Isn't this an important philosophical point, that is probably only really answerable by personal preference. Many people, me included, do not agree with you that M>F trans, for example, are women. The real problem comes when there is personal interaction.
Firstly it really is none of my business what or how other people behave or define themselves. I support everyones right to identify however they like. But surely that right applies to me, I don't want to have sex with someone who was a man, because in my eyes they are still a man. Are you seriously saying I don't have a right to that opinion? The only person that effects is me. End of story. Anything else is basically thought policing.
It seems to me that people want to have sex with who they want to have sex with. Sexuality is, as they say, a spectrum so it may be that one day, someone who "self identifies" as straight meets someone of the same sex and decides "I fancy a bit of that". There's a real interest in putting labels on people, trying to ensure that we know what they are and what WE are but ultimately few people are probably at the binary end of the spectrum where they are 100%. I know several people who have had a shock that what they considered to be their sexuality was more nuanced and complex than they realised.
Now, I'm sure that trans people dating heterosexual people is a minefield for them so why make it harder for them by inventing problems that like as not, rarely if ever exist. They identify as a gender different to that of their birth but at what time do they tell the person you're attracted to what is under the clothing or what gender was assigned to them at birth? Likewise, if you ignore physical cues that may be there, is there a huge difference, conversationally, between women who were born men and those born female? Is there such a thing as a stereotypical woman? I would assume that trans people are in no rush to have the no doubt horrific experience of being rejected (potentially violently) by someone they want to either have a relationship with or just have sex with so the majority probably have some learned way to broach the subject before things reach that point.
In my opinion, the people who are most scared of what they may "accidentally" do with someone in bed are those who need to have a long look at themselves and contemplate whether or not they are as secure in their knowledge of who they are as they think.
TBH, people being bigoted is pretty normal. Find any group and you'll find people in it who have problems with other people, even those you think they'd find common cause with. Being empathic costs us nothing so, maybe, we should practice it a bit more.
I don’t want to have sex with someone who was a man, because in my eyes they are still a man. Are you seriously saying I don’t have a right to that opinion? The only person that effects is me. End of story. Anything else is basically thought policing.
But if there are no indications that person was anything other than a woman, what is the difference for you? I can understand you may not want to plan a future founded on dishonesty if you both aren't honest with each other but if it was just a night and you're happy the person in front of you is a woman and the bits you want to play with are compatible with what you like, where's the harm or difference?
1) I'm not scared of an accidental shag with a man or someone who was a man, its just something I don't want. As I said before this is academic anyway.
2) @atlaz I can't say its harm particularly, its just something I don't want to do, if it was revealed later I would feel tricked. I am sure thats the limit of it. However I would feel bad for the person who tricked me too.
Remember this? All very strange, the behavior by both of them and the resulting imprisonment. Seems similar to what we are discussing here, the "victim" thought she was male, and "could not tell" , only feeling upset when she discovered the truth.
If someone has reassigned to a point where you have sex with them and couldn’t tell, why would it matter beyond latent homophobia?
You can argue the victim here is homophobic, but since the law backed her up then I think it must matter beyond homophobia:
Moreover, if a 14yo boy identified as an adult woman and you had sex with her and you couldn't tell, and then you found out you'd be cool with that?
What about the other way round, if you have sex with a 25yo woman who identifies as a 14yo boy, have you done something legally or morally wrong?
Not sure any of this has a simple answer.
I don’t see the logic of women aligning themselves with a bunch of dude-bros which comprise all of the G, the majority of the B, and don’t even get me started on the T. It simply makes no practical sense.
From my googling the other night that does seem to be where the Get the L out group is coming from, and some of the comment on here backs that up - men telling Lesbian women who they should fancy, and shouting "homophobia"/"hate" if women don't fancy the people some men think lesbian women ought to fancy. (I'm not saying I think they're right, just that I can now see their point.)
And someone who is M>F trans is not the same sex as you
Yes they really are. Sex is determined by your chromosomes (not including the very rare mutations or chromosomal aberrations) XX is female while XY is male.
some of the comment on here backs that up – men telling Lesbian women who they should fancy, and shouting “homophobia”/”hate” if women don’t fancy the people
I don’t see that happening anywhere on here.
I do. You and others are saying that if heteronormatives do not fancy having sex with people who used to be the same gender as them then they are homophobic.
I don’t see that happening anywhere on here.
"If someone has reassigned to a point where you have sex with them and couldn’t tell, why would it matter beyond latent homophobia?"
To which my response was:
You can argue the victim here is homophobic, but since the law backed her up then I think it must matter beyond homophobia:
You and others are saying that if heteronormatives do not fancy having sex with people who used to be the same gender as them then they are homophobic.
No. In fact nearly the opposite. You should use whether you fancy someone as the reason whether you want to have sex with them or not. If you don’t fancy someone, that’s fine. But if you fancy someone, then find out they have the wrong chromosomes, and then don’t fancy that person, AND THATS THE ONLY REASON, it’s my opinion that you are a victim of your prejudices, and err, what was that phrase that was used earlier?
Edit; found it; social conditioning.
Second edit; And to clarify; if the ablove is the case, I am unequivocally NOT going to advocate that you are ‘forced’ to have sex with a transgender person. That is the absolute opposite of what should happen and seems to have come from someone else’s fevered imagination. I’m just going to be a little sad for you, hope that one day you grow a little as an empathic human being, and hope that you manage to stay away from people that your opinions are offensive to, for their sakes.
What v8ninety said.. I've never had that clash of conditioning vs. heart and I'd imagine it's a bit of a mind **** but likewise, surely denying what you truly like or desire must mess with your head massively.
not exactly true but it appears to be a common mistake to make.
http://www.who.int/genomics/gender/en/index1.html
I read about the crazies at the march. Looks a lot like the knee-jerk rubbish coming out of North Carolina with pearl clutching and "will someone think of the children!" malarkey about something that doesn't happen ("men in dresses using loos where 'women' could be present). I don't know of a single trans person who thought "Aha! I'll take hormones, change my body shape, wear different clothing and even get my bits and bobs rearranged and *then* I'll be able to force myself on people, muhahahahahaha!".
If you don't want to have sex with someone then don't. If that person forces you then it's called 'rape' and is very wrong. Trans people are not men in drag/women in suits, they're people like you and me trying to get along in the world as best they can.
For those debating things, a simple question - "How do you define "female"" (or male for that matter). Until you've done that you can't really take discussion any further,
I don’t know of a single trans person who thought “Aha! I’ll take hormones, change my body shape, wear different clothing and even get my bits and bobs rearranged and *then* I’ll be able to force myself on people, muhahahahahaha!”.
when the dear old man of the US republicans were kicking off on that it was found that more Republican straight men had sexually assaulted people in bathrooms than any trans person.
Interesting thread.
Ill hold my hand up and say im a bit backwards at this sort of thing. Not because I don’t care but because its not something ive had to deal with a lot and subsequently am unsure how to approach it.
The LGBT thing. I can understand why its there, to unite against oppression which is good. Im not entirely sure how the trans thing fits in as I see it as being different to peoples sexual preference (which I see the LGB thing as) I see the trans thing as someone who wants to identify as something they were different to what they were born into. Again if that’s your thing then that’s cool but apart from the whole unite against hate thing im not sure how it then effects your sexual preference and indeed if it should?
I think the worry for blokes is the whole toilet scenario. Im not sure what this is but I guess its either that you fear getting bummed to death by a 7ft bloke in a frock while at the urinals or if some bloke in a frock lets themselves into the ladies to look at young girls. Or something along those lines. It’s a fear thing due to not fitting in with the norm. People are always scared of something different.
Either way. I respect what people want to do with their lives but I think that even in the LGBT community you have people saying what you cant or should be doing if you identify as a particular “thing” then that’s not good. But it does go to show that people can be dicks in all areas of the community whether you’ve got one or not.
With regards to my approach to it all. I get told off for not being pro this or that but I don’t feel the need to as tbh its none of my business…..
not exactly true but it appears to be a common mistake to make.
What I said was true if you re-read what I wrote. I know about the odd xsome abnormality abd those that have mutations which stop the Y causing the male bits to be made instead.
For those debating things, a simple question – “How do you define “female”” (or male for that matter). Until you’ve done that you can’t really take discussion any further,
Exactly.
V8ninety, you should be cautious in your campaign, I think the problem is you will never educate anyone to your woke position if you keep chucking the barbs in. I am trying to be honest and open and happy to face anything, you seem to give the impression that anyone who hasn't achieved your nirvana deserves contempt, to which most peoples reaction is just to tell you to **** off.
I am happy to take it, but it makes the whole thing much harder. And to be honest is the whole problem with much of these rights movements.
Get of your high horse and make your points clearly and fairly.
Either way. I respect what people want to do with their lives but I think that even in the LGBT community you have people saying what you cant or should be doing if you identify as a particular “thing” then that’s not good. But it does go to show that people can be dicks in all areas of the community whether you’ve got one or not.
With regards to my approach to it all. I get told off for not being pro this or that but I don’t feel the need to as tbh its none of my business…..
Also this exactly my position ^ . Thats why I am onyl concerned with my relationships. I am not interested in sex with men, or ex men, it only affects me. I will fight for the right for other people to have sex with whichever consenting adults they want, for ever. Isn't that good enough?
I’m just going to be a little sad for you, hope that one day you grow a little as an empathic human being, and hope that you manage to stay away from people that your opinions are offensive to, for their sakes.
If someone is offended because I don’t want to have sex with a trans person then they have the problem not me.
V8ninety, you should be cautious in your campaign, I think the problem is you will never educate anyone to your woke position if you keep chucking the barbs in. I am trying to be honest and open and happy to face anything, you seem to give the impression that anyone who hasn’t achieved your nirvana deserves contempt, to which most peoples reaction is just to tell you to **** off.
Happy to take that criticism and learn from it, thanks. Reading my posts back I can see that they may come across as a bit high horsey. Sorry.
TBH, it’s not my battle, and certainly not a campaign. I’m a heteronormative white male, who has just been lucky enough to spend a lot of time with all sorts of different humans beings. I just see behaviours and attitudes towards fellow human beings that saddens me, and react. Also, I see what appears to be deliberate misinterpretation and conflation of facts in order to find something to be outraged about (ZOMG! No one is going to force ME to have sex with a bloke!) and I try* to bring a bit of objectivity back into the conversation. Sorry if I’ve offended. I shall try to stick more closely to Wheaton’s law in future! 👍🏼😎 all the best.
I’m not going to pretend some things in this thread haven't upset me - they have. To be honest, I’ve been avoiding STW for the last day or so hoping this would just go away but that doesn’t seem to be happening. So, I’m just going to have to put a few things straight:
1: Not a single trans person on the planet cares whether you personally want to have sex with them, believe me. You can’t even wash your legs properly...
2: The case of Gayle Newland is not relevant as she wasn’t (and said to the court she wasn’t) trans. She was intentionally duping someone into sex.
3: Trans people find themselves at risk of violence from sexual partners more than any other subgroup. They are not the purportators, they’re the victims - so much so that black, trans women in the USA have a life expectancy of 29 years. Thank about that for a minute...
4: Recent studies show that >40% of trans people have seriously considered suicide. I have a number of friends who have attempted to take their lives because of the stupid comments they hear over and over again. One of them is currently recovering from her latest overdose attempt.
5: Much of the LGBT movement and Pride marches came about from the Stonewall Riots, which were largely driven by trans women. It would be <i>bizarre</i> if T was not part of LGBT
6: Trans people make up around 1% of the UK population. Ginger people make up just shy of 2%. Basically, for every two ginger people you see, you also see a trans person. There are more around than you think...
Serously people, grow up. Nobody wants to bang you, least of all me.
Rachel
Not a single trans person on the planet cares whether you personally want to have sex with them, believe me.
As I said many times, its academic in my case..
But it seems that somebody cares, v8ninety and atlas feel that anyone not wanting to bang a trans person is a homophobe, if a trans person doesn't want to bang me I am not offended, and I don't feel I or anyone has the right to be offended. (EG look at incels. uggghhh blaming everyone else because you cannot find a partner).
I have always been a vociferous supporter of the freedom to be whatever you are or want to be. It is not mine or anyones business to question what people do between consenting adults, nor how they dress behave etc. But what I do is up to me right?
Nobody wants to bang you, least of all me.
*cries* but we've never met, how can you be so sure?
(if my comment is in bad taste please ask a MOD to remove it)