[Closed] German Market . . . .

Yawn.

A lot of people don't realise there is still this infrastructure in our towns as we have got so used to seeing it.

It's not 'still' there, we actively design it in. There was a whole piece on the One Show a while back with a town planner discussing all the various layers of protection built into public spaces.

The other thing is are our intelligence agencies doing a better job than on the continent? There was rumour that the EU are concerned about the lack of communication on intelligence once Brexit happens, as the UK is a big player.

If you can't link something it's not even a rumour, it's fiction.

"I'd be struggling to think of anyone against helping refugees"

The Saudis don't appear particularly keen...

ninfan - Member

...what was the intel that led to this, and was Germany party to that intel?

what was the intel - not sure
was germany party to it - directly, maybe, although the media identifies bomb links and UK suspects, rather than some pan-europe truck driving horror.
Germany are, after all on a high terror alert so indirectly, yes they will have been aware.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/dec/12/counter-terrorim-arrests-made-over-significant-plot-to-attack-uk-isis-

bill oddie - Member

Its a horrible thing but it is too easy to blow this stuff out of proportion and start pointing fingers. Far more likely to be killed or severely injured in an RTA.

Shitting your pants about refugees carrying out attacks is a waste of time.

I'm sure that would be of great comfort to the relatives of the people just murdered. It's also a stupid comparison. There aren't groups of people celebrating a road traffic accident. There aren't groups of people conspiring to carry out another more extreme road traffic accident. People don't aspire to kill others in a road traffic accident in order to guarantee their place in heaven. It's entirely plausible that there could be a similar attack on another European city tonight.

Intent matters.

Deaths in Europe from extremism

ETA, IRA, RAF, Neo-Nazi's. Lone wolf attacks e.g Anders Breivik (killed 77 - 2011). Don't forget that Europe is perfectly capable of creating its own extremist psychos. (or wars for that matter)

So we don't need to import any. I wonder how many people ETA, the IRA, and Neo Nazis have killed in the last five years as opposed to Islamists.

freeagent - Member

"I'd be struggling to think of anyone against helping refugees"

The Saudis don't appear particularly keen...

They're far too busy blowing up schools and hospitals with the billions of pounds worth of cutting edge british bombs they've acquired over the years. Better leave them alone, the customer is always right.

loddrik - Member

It's a religion of peace you know....

captainsasquatch

Not sure it's needed when we're discussing terrorism.

*Islamic* terrorism. Now would be a good time for you to mention that you work with muslims, you haven't mentioned it in about a week.

Id be struggling to think of anyone against helping refugees

Really?

Read the comments section on any news article regarding refugees. Grim.

*Islamic* terrorism. Now would be a good time for you to mention that you work with muslims, you haven't mentioned it in about a week.

TMH Farage is absolutely right. Her leading part in the current security disaster will be her legacy. Brenden Cox is wrong, holding politicians responsible for their gross policy errors is entirely appropriate.

Yes, it might be that one of the 900000 people she saved turned out to be a wrong 'un. That's terrible. It doesn't mean that the act of compassion was wrong, though.

Well it's a minimum of 4 terrorist killers so far in Germany (never mind the Bataclan terrorists who used the migration to arrive in Northern Europe), one of which had already been in jail in Cyprus for throwing a woman over a sea wall onto rocks and went on to arrive in Germany as a refugee before murdering a 19 year old volunteer. Admitting 1m people with virually no checks

As Stewart says we all want to help refugees, its a matter of how. I struggle to see how people from ****stan, Bangladesh, Morocco and Tunisia are refugees and unable to return to their own countries and safety.

welshfarmer - Member

jambalaya » ..........
Farage is right to say this disastrous policy will be Merkel's legacy

Is he? Should try looking at his own legacy

Farage is right.

Indeed Farage is right again. The left wont see it though, as usual.

Have we speculated on which religion is responsible for the Zurich attack on Muslims yet?

No we haven't but I speculate it's unlikely that the Bible (Old or New Testament) played any role whatsoever. I would speculate he was probably someone of far right political views - someone of German ancestory responding to the Berlin attacks ? Could be wrong of course.

the vast majority, living in a state of perpetual fear,...it's almost like someone is planning this isn't it?

someone of German ancestory responding to the Berlin attacks ?

Could be wrong of course.

"I'd be struggling to think of anyone against helping refugees"

How about most Daily Mail readers, UKIP voters, Brexit voters, Nigel Farage, Donald Trump and his voters, EDL, BNP (is that still even a thing?) and most London Cabbies?.
How about every member of the UN who wants nothing to do with standing up and helping the people of Aleppo.
How about our fiends, families and neighbours who, despite what they say, secretly want nothing to do with refugees

There are lots of people who want nothing at all to do with refugees.

Whilst on a rant, I will also say that I object to the suggestion that people are wrong to shy away from places like markets as to do so would mean that the terrorists has won.

I am pretty sure that any deranged ISIS terrorist / lone wolf / nutter would regard killing my children as a greater success that me keeping them away from a market for a day. It is difficult to imagine ring leaders sat in a cave in Syria or Saudi or Iraq patting themselves on the back saying 'Durka Durka, look, franksinatra isn't going to market, success!'

So please don't suggest that me keeping my kids away from vulnerable places hands the baddies any sort of victory. It does not. Instead it shows that I am doing what I think is best for my kids.

No alternative solution proposed by Captain Hindsight Farage though. Yes some countries could have done more to help out. The leader he has focused his attention on is the one who was most willing to be compassionate. It was a difficult decision and I could empathize with a call either way.

@ Jambalaya - That wasn't directed towards the grieving families of the victims, interesting that you thought it was though. I would of thought it fairly obviously wasn't....unless you are just points scoring and don't really care about them, but you wouldn't do that would you?

TMH Farage is absolutely right. Her leading part in the current security disaster will be her legacy.

No he's not and I doubt it.

But I will not forget how easily we (the UK) turned our back willingly on the plight of those less fortunate than ourselves. Like many things that can be associated with Farage and his ilk, it made me feel ashamed and slightly grubby.

He is the lowest common denominator of politics - in good company at the moment sadly.

captainsasquatch - Member

loddrik - Member

It's a religion of peace you know....

Indeed it is, Lodders, thanks for pointing that out. Not sure it's needed when we're discussing terrorism.

I think it is a very valid point to make.

If as many as 1.0% of all Muslims were terrorists then we would almost half a million Muslim terrorists in Europe.

However luckily far more than 99% of Muslims aren't terrorists, so we only have to deal with a tiny handful of "Muslim terrorists" in Europe.

Which is a fair point to make to the usual and very predictable knuckle-draggers.

Farage is right.

Farage is right.

'Coz Islamaphobia is cool, right?

No because he welcomes economic migrants like chewkw with open arms.

The word refugee is being thrown around quite a bit. Genuine question...

How many of the 900,00 were actual refugees from Syria and how many were economic migrants from other nations?

There is a difference and it doesn't seem unreasonable to point it out.

the vast majority, living in a state of perpetual fear

captainsasquatch - Member

Farage is right.

'Coz Islamaphobia is cool, right?

Yes, he is right about Merkel for not checking.

ernie_lynch - Member
No because he welcomes economic migrants like chewkw with open arms.

Looking at the location on Apple maps, I wouldn't be at all surprised if this whole thing was simply a case of truck hijack, then going way too fast down a dual carriageway that turned left sharply before the market and the driver simply failed to make the turn. In that case, of course the hijacker, having already killed co-driver, would do a swift exit from the scene.

Rachel

Looking at the location on Apple maps, I wouldn't be at all surprised if this whole thing was simply a case of truck hijack, then going way too fast down a dual carriageway that turned left sharply before the market and the driver simply failed to make the turn. In that case, of course the hijacker, having already killed co-driver, would do a swift exit from the scene.
Rachel

I would be very surprised were this to be the case.

because?

My assessment of probabilities. Merkel is treating it as a terrorist incident. The German refugee situation. It's a truck full
of steel beams, nothing special as far as cargos go. The driver was brutally murdered. How many times have trucks left the ototrway and hit the marketplace by accident? I'm assuming none or it would be in the news.

And now the Police aren't even sure if the suspect was the driver. Feel free to carry on with the speculation though.

because?

This terrorist was from ****stan although he claimed he was Afghan. ****stan not Syria or Iraq

Been released, insufficient evidence

Been released, insufficient evidence

They've missed a trick. He was ****stani, and no doubt Muslim, what more could they possibly want ?

We prosecuted and convicted random Irishmen when the IRA had a bombing campaign in the UK. It worked a treat in boosting otherwise low public morale.

I think it could have been this fella.
[img] [/img]
He's a finger waving Muslim. Eh? Eh?
Where was he lastnight? I don't know.

jambalaya - Member
TMH Farage is absolutely right.

Literally the whole point of Brendan Cox's reply was that if politicians should be accountable for their acts then farage and Vote Leave have responsibility toward the hate and division the referendum campaign stirred up- a huge factor in Jo Cox's murder by a terrorist.

Farage is a shameless **** and a coward.

Literally the whole point of Brendan Cox's reply was that if politicians should be accountable for their acts then farage and Vote Leave have responsibility toward the hate and division the referendum campaign stirred up- a huge factor in Jo Cox's murder by a terrorist.
Farage is a shameless **** and a coward.

I imagine that small point will either be:

A. Conveniently ignored.
B. Utterly missed..

The sooner Farage fxxks of to the US, the better.

Confused, didn't the evidence show us quite clearly that Thomas Mairs preoccupation with far right politics and racism long predate Nigel Farages involvement in politics?

The Southern Policy Law Centre published letters he wrote to white supremacist magazines in 1991 and 1999, whilst there is evidence that he attended BNP meetings as far back as 2000

UKIP wasn't founded till 1992, and Farage only became UKIP leader in 2006

Of course, one would suspect that inconvenient facts like that will be either:

A. Conveniently ignored.
B. Utterly missed..

Confused, didn't the evidence show us quite clearly that Thomas Mairs preoccupation with far right politics and racism long predate Nigel Farages involvement in politics?

Confused as he didnt kill anyone until the referendum campaign. You know the thing that pretty much took place due to Farage spooking the Tory leaders.

Yeah, but as you well know, Correlation ? Causation

I thought it was pretty much accepted that he killed her due to her stance on Brexit and immigrants?

Yeah, but as you well know, Correlation ? Causation

pretty much accepted

It seems to have been, but what has Mair actually said about his reasoning or motivations?

I have no doubt at all that he was absolutely motivated by what appears to have been a longstanding issue with race and racial integration (and from what I have seen there seems to have been a large grudge about the way the bedroom tax affected him too) but I've not seen anything actually linking it to the referendum, or to him campaigning or even having a strong voice on the outcome of, and that (we shouldn't forget) his actions very nearly lost.

but I've not seen anything actually linking it to the referendum

Timing, if as you say he'd managed to be a non murderous nutter for 30 years before he killed.

Deleted prior to the response below.

Timing, if as you say he'd managed to be a non murderous nutter for 30 years before he killed.

See above point about bedroom tax

As he killed her, he shouted out 'Keep Britain Independent'.
Not 'Keep Britain white'.

What he shouted on the day is still not entirely clear (witness accounts vary) however there is no doubt at all that he previously wrote:

[i]“The nationalist movement in the U.K. also continues to fight on against the odds. … Despite everything I still have faith that the White Race will prevail, both in Britain and in South Africa, but I fear that it’s going to be a very long and very bloody struggle.”[/i]

before UKIP even existed... so it's hard to blame them for radicalising him or somehow inspiring him with a message of hate and division.

plenty of people have crazy thoughts , they dont go out to murder people .

He was carrying a referendum leaflet when he murdered her

He shouted "Britain First, this is for Britain" and "Death to Traitors."

The day after farage had used this poster stoking xenophobia and fear in his campaigb

[img] [/img]

Immediately after her murder you tried to say he wasn't anything to do with the far right Ninfan, you are wrong in this one too

What he shouted on the day is still not entirely clear (witness accounts vary)

no they don't, they have all said quite clearly that he said a number of things, "Britain First", "Keep Britain Independent"and "This is for Britain" and so on.

He shouted "Britain First, this is for Britain" and "Death to Traitors."

I see you have capitalised First. As above there is confusion as to what he said - I have seen the following "Put Britain first, this is for Britain. Death to Traitors"

Farage said we should have a points based immigration system like Australia. He didn't say no immigrants. Ditto he said we should take refugees which had been thoroughky vetted and he also suggested taking just the Christians who he said where no longer safe. Controversial but not racist.

The poster above uses an image taken of refugees crossing illegally en route to Germany. Not too many women ? As the Americans would say "men of fighting age"

I'm sure he actually said "Brian First, this is for Brian"

I'm sure he actually said "Brian First, this is for Brian"

Maybe, but why "Death to trousers"?

I'm sensing some kind of Scottish Nationalism.

Interesting, Jambalaya, that you would expect your children, your wife and your parents to accompany you on a gruelling march into the unknown.

Interesting, Jambalaya, that you would expect your children, your wife and your parents to accompany you on a gruelling march into the unknown.

Interesting, RichPenny, that you would flee* from terror, oppression and violence but leave your children, wife and parents behind...

(*Refugee - r?fj??d?i; noun: a person who has been forced to leave their country in order to escape war, persecution, or natural disaster)

[img] [/img]

Neil Carmichael, the Conservative MP for Stroud, said: “It’s disappointing to see Ukip jumping on the refugee crisis to further their own political aims. Britain can only deal with the issue of immigration by working together with European countries that face the same challenges.”

A spokesperson for Getty Images confirmed that the picture had been licensed from them and was taken in Slovenia in 2015 by its staff photographer Jeff Mitchell. “It is always uncomfortable when an objective news photograph is used to deliver any political message or subjective agenda. However, the image in question has been licensed legitimately,” they said.

“Editorial integrity is of the utmost importance to Getty Images, and our photographers are passionate about documenting the global news agenda and covering issues from an objective and impartial standpoint. Our images are syndicated to almost 1 million customers around the world – whether that be to media, business and brands, or in this case, political parties.”

The poster above uses an image taken of refugees crossing illegally en route to Germany. Not too many women ? As the Americans would say "men of fighting age"

[b] “It is always uncomfortable when an objective news photograph is used to deliver any political message or subjective agenda.[/b]

The fact that the poster also misses the point that the UK has 100% control of it's borders via passport control etc. and that it would not let refugees cross without due process. Like the EU thread you always want to confuse freedom of EU citizens with Refugees and miss the very simple fact that the UK has control of it's borders.

Tunisian suspect being hunted by German police. So racist.

"German police are searching for a Tunisian over Monday's Berlin Christmas market attack, media reports say.

According to a temporary-stay permit found under a seat in the cab of the lorry, the man, named as Anis A, was born in 1992 in the city of Tataouine.

A police operation is reported to be under way in the state of North Rhine-Westphalia where the permit was issued.

Investigators say the suspect may have been injured in a struggle with the driver of the truck."

You people make me sick.

More French and Belgian citizens are responsible for European terrorism than any other group, you don't see anyone suggesting we ban them.

Anyone suggesting we don't help those millions in need on the strength of a couple of whack jobs needs to have a serious word with themselves.

An extremist mindset is one born from extreme situations of dissatisfaction and alienation. I'm sure ignoring the plight of so many and treating them with such contempt won't add to that.

It is irrelevant what nationality whatever sicko that committed this act is. What is relevant is the circumstances and experiences which led them to make such extreme decisions.

Unfortunately for some of your tiny little minds it won't be anything like as simple as being a migrant or a Muslim.

The world is a complex place, full of horrors, I think it's probably best we try to face it with humility, generosity and kindness, as being a **** seems to have made it worse, not better.

Once again, people have died in a horrible act and the point scoring starts in earnest.

A. Conveniently ignored.
B. Utterly missed..

Thank you for proving my point!

outofbreath

I can't help but wonder if the perp might have left someone else's identity card behind to throw the feds off the scent....

Jihadists have been known to leave or carry their id so when they are martyred everyone knows exactly who was responsible. He may have just changed his mind about dying at the last minute.

fin25 - Member

You people make me sick.

More French and Belgian citizens are responsible for European terrorism than any other group, you don't see anyone suggesting we ban them.

Lol.

Anyone suggesting we don't help those millions in need on the strength of a couple of whack jobs needs to have a serious word with themselves.

But no one is suggesting that.

An extremist mindset is one born from extreme situations of dissatisfaction and alienation. I'm sure ignoring the plight of so many and treating them with such contempt won't add to that.

Yeah, like middle class university educated second generation londoners. Must be tough.

Unfortunately for some of your tiny little minds ..

Please stop 😆

outofbreath - Member

According to a temporary-stay permit found under a seat in the cab of the lorry, the man, named as Anis A, was born in 1992 in the city of Tataouine

Bloody rebels

Yeah, like middle class university educated second generation londoners. Must be tough.

Where did I say that poverty or lack of education were causes of extremism?

fin dont feed the troll!

[b]Interesting, RichPenny, that you would flee* from terror, oppression and violence but leave your children, wife and parents behind...

(*Refugee - r?fj??d?i; noun: a person who has been forced to leave their country in order to escape war, persecution, or natural disaster)

[/b]

@nifan - Definition of a troll - someone who chooses to pick someone else up on a subject they clearly know little about and look foolish in the process... 😀

Ah, the cry of troll, second only to the flounce in the leftie armoury of responses when losing the argument.

Ps. I see that the new suspect in the German attack was registered as an asylum seeker. Oops.

ninfan - Member

Ps. I see that the new suspect in the German attack was registered as an asylum seeker. Oops.

Well I see the lesson about waiting til you're sure it's the right man has sunk in

Ah, the cry of troll, second only to the flounce in the leftie armoury of responses when losing the argument.

Oh come on ninfan.. when have you even posted anything of substance on thread relating to Muslims?? Let alone coming anywhere close to making a point??
Winning an argument though!? 😆 comic genius

Well, there's the times when I've pointed out that Muslim isn't a race when people like you have been hopping up and down calling anyone and everyone racist 😉

I'm getting confused on this thread. Didn't some actual people literally die?

What you are seeing here with the mentality of people like Ninfan is the lack of empathy, and a hatred of all that is different to them, which essentially makes them and the "extremists" both sides of the same coin.

Well, there's the times when I've pointed out that Muslim isn't a race when people like you have been hopping up and down calling anyone and everyone racist

Ps. I see that the new suspect in the German attack was registered as an asylum seeker. Oops.

If you're that desperate to win an argument that you'll sink so low, then **** it, you've won.

How does it feel to have changed the world?

Oh, sorry, no one gives a shit about your smug opinions and nothing will change regardless of how many forum threads you pollute with your nonsense.

So yeah, enjoy your victory.

Hope it is everything you dreamed of.

people like Ninfan

Go on...

Of course racism being a belief that one's own race is superior to others, which will include their religious beliefs.
Not necessarily against a race.
It's you, imagined, superiority that makes it racist.
Not shut up on the matter before you look foolish.

Muslim isn't a race, that's not just my opinion, it's what the law says

You can wish to redefine it to fit in with your high minded, self important, oh so conscious ideals all you like, but the law says it isn't

Diddums

[i]Ah, the cry of troll, second only to the flounce in the leftie armoury of responses when losing the argument.[/i]

@nifan..ever heard the phrase give the man enough rope? In your words above you flatter me and suggest you may be racist and confirm you're just trolling too.

Calling me a leftie is flattery. Everyone knows the racists and xenophobes hide in the right wing parties, and by you using the words 'leftie' as an attack on me you are clearly labeling yourself as right wing.

Also, you chose to ignore the comment about you knowing nothing about refugees. You must be trolling then to criticise another person on a subject you know little about.

Good effort by you I say. 😀

people like Ninfan

Go on...

I'm getting confused on this thread. Didn't some actual people literally die?

That's irrelevant. It's more important to win the thread!

Can we just close this one. And as a bonus can we ban Ninfan?

Ah, intolerance of those with different beliefs and an attempt to censor debate

Quelle surprise