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@singletrackmag Will you be adding “ginger” to that list? Asking for a friend 😉 . I never really suffered abuse when younger, but you should hear some of the comments my son has brought home from his school.
Bit of a low point this thread. Wish I’d not read it to be honest.
That they use it doesn’t make it not offensive, in fact they use it because it is.
Kanye wasn't using the word in an offensive manner:
“Now I ain’t saying she’s a gold-digger, but she ain’t messing with no broke ****.”
There's loads of other examples of him using the owrd in song, and none of them are in an offensive manner.
Same with a lot of other artists.
Maybe you need to get with the program ?
Holy mic-drop!
A meme was born to us today. #notworthy
Kanye wasn’t using the word in an offensive manner:
Never said he was. I said the word is offensive. That is so well established I cannot believe it is even a discussion.
There are a myriad of reasons why a certain group uses the word, including but not limited to: reclaiming it in an attempt to redefine it for themselves, as a way to devote a very particular subset, etc.
Maybe you need to work on your reading comprehension. You are most definitely in the wrong program.
It’s programme.
We are not uncouth Americans.
Careful now
A couple of years ago a teenager posted lyrics by US rap artist Snap Dogg on their Instagram account to pay tribute to Frankie Murphy. They were charged with (and found guilty of) "sending a grossly offensive message by means of a public electronic communications network".
https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/woman-who-posted-rap-lyrics-14543694
We are not uncouth Americans.
Couth Americans spell it that way too.
How many men do you know, who are attracted to women but ambivalent about breasts?
Well, I’m one, for what it’s worth. None of my girlfriends have ever been, shall we say, spectacularly well-endowed. And it hasn’t mattered a damn. The fact that they were, and are, sweet, lovely people did matter.
It’s what I love them for, because, even after many years, I’m still friends with them all.
Never said he was. I said the word is offensive. That is so well established I cannot believe it is even a discussion.
you said he was using the word because it is offensive, I don't agree. It's offensive to you maybe but it clearly isn't to many black people when used in a non-offensive manner, such as in these lyrics and by many other black artists.
Maybe you need to work on your reading comprehension.
funnily enough I was going to say this to you, and then changed it to that cheesy phrase to avoid any possible insult.
We are not uncouth Americans.
it's program as this is popular american music we are discussing 🙂
Do you even know what point you're trying to make?
You can't use the N-word if you're not black. Full stop.
There's disagreement among black people over the desirability of its use by rappers etc, but even Kanye would probably frown on Cougar using it.
Moving back to the subject matter - who saw the BBC documentary the other day on trans kids ?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m0002tw1/panorama-trans-kids-why-medicine-matters
I won't make comment though 🙂
Do you even know what point you’re trying to make?You can’t use the N-word if you’re not black. Full stop.
didn't mention Cougar - someone just said that ANY use of that word is offensive, which I disagreed with as it is possible for a Black person to use it in a non-offensive manner.
you said he was using the word because it is offensive, I don’t agree.
You are most definitely in the wrong program. Do a bit of research on it and come back when you have.
someone just said that ANY use of that word is offensive,
If you are referring to me, again reading comprehension. I said the word is offensive, full stop. You don't agree with that, as you have said. You really need to address that. I never said anything about use in that context because I do not belong to that community and it is not my debate to have. Not yours, I'm guessing.
Reading some of your posts I think you grasp the use of the shocking or provocative for it's effect.
as it is possible for a Black person to use it in a non-offensive manner.
yep...
I said the word is offensive, full stop.
So you're asserting that it is still offensive when black rappers say it?
I'll be honest, this is something I struggle with (which is probably what got me in hot water earlier). If the word itself - those six pesky letters in a specific order - is inherently always offensive (which is broadly what STW said earlier) then it shouldn't matter who's saying it. If we're instead arguing that it's OK for black people to say it then this becomes demonstrably untrue, it's merely usually offensive and what matters instead is the context in which it's being used.
So then we could argue perhaps that it's always offensive if a white person says it but if a black person says it then it's fine. How about a black person using it as an insult to another black person, is that still OK? Or if a white judge or lawyer is repeating it as evidence in a race-related court case, is that still offensive simply because s/he's white? Isn't that, y'know, a little bit racist?
This is what I was trying - badly, perhaps - to explain what I meant by context earlier. I can't get my head around the concept that a jumble of letters are inherently offensive. It's like with the practice of starring out letters in swear words, whether I type f*** or type that word out in full it's still the same bloomin' word at the end of the day. Everyone knows what it means and the meaning hasn't changed any, why is one any more appropriate than the other? If you call someone a **** then you're calling them a **** regardless of what letters you choose. If we feel the need to asterisk out letters, maybe we'd be better off choosing a different word instead?
So you’re asserting that it is still offensive when black rappers say it?
From TurnerGuy I saw this question as both facile and borderline offensive in itself, but you've mentioned your autism as a factor in not "getting" this so I'll take it at face value.
The N-word is always offensive to some people, whatever their skin colour.
Some black people are OK with using it among themselves and in artistic efforts, but others claim this is offensive and counter-productive.
There's a strong taboo on non-black people using it at all, which I thought was widely understood.
Of course a white judge or lawyer could use it in relation to evidence in court, the word would remain offensive however the intention would not be. The purpose would justify the use, unlike in your case.
I’ve restrained myself in commenting up until now.
The “N” word is offensive. Period. Just because it is used by certain people, whether that is for “art”, music, comedy, etc. Does not make it OK in certain circumstances or situations. They are still using it in an offensive or derogatory manner.
Back to the OP.
I really do feel for you Rachel. This place has become a lesser place recently due to certain number of posters that are either banging the same drum, repeatedly, or those that are sailing close to the wind with their “freedom of speech” defence. There are trolls on here too. Whether it’s the usual suspects with different usernames or new emboldened ones that think the divisive nature of how social media has become in the last few years is now allowing them to spout their toxic bile.
I’ll bet they wouldn’t risk saying these types of things in mixed company or in their local pub for fear of being called out on it, or worse. Behind an anonymous keyboard they think they’re safe.
the practice of starring out letters in swear words, whether I type f or type that word out in full it’s still the same bloomin’ word at the end of the day. Everyone knows what it means and the meaning hasn’t changed any, why is one any more appropriate than the other? If you call someone a * then you’re calling them a **** regardless of what letters you choose. If we feel the need to asterisk out letters, maybe we’d be better off choosing a different word instead?
This is the thing I have difficulty with re the use of that word. Surely if you’re discussing the word for some genuine reason, the writing the word in full is acceptable? To type n* is ridiculous imho.
I appreciate that this is not really the salient point at all, but I was really just trying to unpick the language. Someone asserts that a word is always offensive "full stop," except when it isn't, and that breaks my head. Either it's always offensive and should just be excised from the lexicon globally, or it isn't and there's situations where it's justified / acceptable. In which case, what are those situations?
I'm aware of course that it's a racial slur with a very long and unfortunate history, I might be Aspie but I'm not completely detached from reality! I wasn't really aware that there was a particular backlash against rappers etc using it though (how long has NWA been going now?) so that was helpful.
the word would remain offensive however the intention would not be.
But isn't that exactly what I've been trying to say? The only person I'm aware of who thought I was being intentionally offensive misread my post and later apologised via PM.
So you're saying the difference between a judge using it in a case and me using it to stress how shockingly offensive I think someone is being is, what, that a court case is more important than a forum discussion? That's totally fair enough if so, because of course it is.
(Just to repeat myself for avoidance of any doubt, I hold my hand up that I should've used a different word, there's plenty of others which are less charged and could have made a similar point. It's safest all round just to avoid saying it. I'm genuinely sorry if I did upset or offend anyone, that wasn't my intention at all. I'm not trying to justify it.)
I’ll be honest, this is something I struggle with (which is probably what gETS me in hot water earlier A LOT)
I am with you there. I struggled for a long time and still do to some degree. To me, it was about intent. If I used an offensive word towards someone I like, and said it with the nicest possible intent, it couldn't be offensive. Friends call friends tarts, old queens, ****ers etc all the time no one gets offended.
There are certain words which carry with them as part of their definition by use and custom, ideas which are so unkind, demeaning, dehumanising and disgusting that they cease to be a collection of letters and become a history, experience and reflection of the vilest parts of humanity.
As an example a blasphemy is a blasphemy. Whether you are offended by it in the extreme or are "what's a blasphemy" it is and always will be a blasphemy. So the Wider world has decided the word is offensive. Hopefully it always will be considered as such.
We need to keep the word in existence in order to not forget history. It will need to be used occasionally (as in court, in your example) but it should be with extreme reluctance, after all possibilities have been exhausted, never casually and always with understanding and appreciation of the impact and necessity.
My understanding is that in the communities most affected by it, there is extreme disagreement as to whether it should be used and whether some of the reasons given for its use justify it (you can do you own research on it, it is too vast to cover in a post). I am not part of those communities so can only really speak from a theoretical position
As to your asterisks. Those are used to get around filters. They represent a word which we, as a society, have gradually come to agree are mild irritating, not offensive per say. There was actually a court case around f, whether it was offensive. The court said essentially it isn't anymore, in the way it used to be. However some words have become too offensive to use in general conversations (Crude references to sexual orientation or preference for instance are no longer tolerated in the way f is). The use of asteriks or the swear word they cover is used to convey a not hugely offensive idea or emotion (like when you hit your thumb with a hammer, and, get this, swearing actually make pain more tolerable, whereas a non swear word or nonsense word delivered in the same way doesn't, which goes to show you that words are words with effect, not merely random collections of letters). You could use all asterisks and people would still understand the message within the message. They are a shorthand.
"That" word is a shorthand too. It's a shorthand for things that I find difficult to comprehend a human being thinkin about, or doing to, another human being.
I wonder idly whether if I'd made the same post but starred out the word it would've generated the same backlash. If the answer to that is "no" then I'm probably never going to understand people.
Oops.
A bit of cross posting by me up there. The first bit is for this thread. The second bit should be for another.
Bloody iPad. If only it was Dracs. It wouldn't have done that. ;-).
@cromolyolly > That's really, really helpful. Thank you. Food for thought.
I wonder idly whether if I’d made the same post but starred out the word it would’ve generated the same backlash.
To be honest I would never in a million years have guessed that it was that word, unless you had only starred out 1 or 2 letters because I can't recall the last time I heard or saw the word outside certain very limited uses (certain kinds of rap, movies etc).
If I had then yes. Because it isn't the word itself it is the meaning of it, and the burden it carries.
@Cougar Does anybody on here actually know you ? If not can't you just claim to be Afro Carribean and then you are off the hook .
😆
I've met a few folk off here a while back, and I've a co-worker who's a lurker.
@Cougar Does anybody on here actually know you ? If not can’t you just claim to be Afro Carribean and then you are off the hook .
Best post on this thread so far!
On the bright side, Cougar is allowed to sling the offensive terms “geek”,”nerd”, “dork” and “Tom Savini” about with impunity. 😉
Well, I'll take two of those.
Seems to me that there's a lot of 'white priviege' here in saying that no-one is allowed to use that word.
If the community that that word was originally targetted at in a derogatory manner decide that they want to use that word themselves in whatever way they want, then who are we to complain? A bunch of losers on a bike forum ?
Language use changes over time, look at the word 'gay'.
saying that no-one is allowed to use that word.
I don't think anyone has said that, have they? They've said it is offensive and it is. There is a definiotn from a dictionary a few pages back.
If the community that that word was originally targetted at in a derogatory manner decide that they want to use that word themselves in whatever way they want, then who are we to complain?
They have to decide that for themselves, those not in that community don't really have a say. That community has rightly made it clear that they will decide that for themselves. They have also made it abundantly clear that they reserve that privilege and the privilege to use or not use it. Also that that priviledge doesn't extend to anyone else. And that the word is offensive.
Nothing is inherently offensive, anything may cause offense and whilst I would like to argue for context that's clearly not the whole story. For instance; Superdry, I have only to see the logo to be fair, doesn't matter who's wearing it, even when mates do it. Look hard enough and you'll find someone who is offended, so to that extent it is evident that the use of particular words will always cause offense to some regardless of context, but if our intent is clear and right - it's a close friend, evidence in a court case, the reclaiming of a word long used to abuse us, then we should not be concerned about the offense caused because it is very much the problem of the offended - they are choosing to be offended and see offense where there is none, so **** 'em I say
They have to decide that for themselves, those not in that community don’t really have a say. That community has rightly made it clear that they will decide that for themselves. They have also made it abundantly clear that they reserve that privilege and the privilege to use or not use it. Also that that priviledge doesn’t extend to anyone else.
which is what I was saying...
And that the word is offensive.
Not if it isn't used in an offensive way by those in the Black community ?
Or are you really saying that you take offense of their right to use the word in whatever way they want ?
And no-one has the right to not be offended - this isn't Canada...
And no-one has the right to not be offended – this isn’t Canada…
The only 'offended' people on this thread are those stood on the back of their tall horses harking look at me, look at me, I've been offended! It reads like a Monty Python skit.
It reads like a Monty Python skit.
business as usual then...
I'm at a loss as to why Superdry is offensive.
I’m at a loss as to why Superdry is offensive.
That got me as well.
I’m at a loss as to why Superdry is offensive.
Dampist?
I’m at a loss as to why Superdry is offensive.
I have a very good set of reasons for being offended, but I'm sure they'll make no sense to anyone else. That's pretty much the point, I mean who is to blame for my state of outrage, me or the guy who noticed in the late 90's that there were loads of Japanese T'shirts that were given away free with washing powder sold on Ebay and worked out there were people who would actually pay twenty quid for one if it was sold in a nice shop on the High St?
I think I might be just making shit up to get angry about it
I’m at a loss as to why Superdry is offensive.
They’re from Cheltenham.
I think I might be just making shit up to get angry about it
You could also be the most honest person on STW at this moment 😀
I genuinely don't know if you don't understand, or are just taking the Michael. I sincerely hope it isn't the latter because that would be incredibly crass, given the subject matter. However, if it is the former perhaps this will help
Not if it isn’t used in an offensive way by those in the Black community ?
There really is not such thing. It is a diaspora like most. And in case you missed it earlier:
in the communities most affected by it, there is extreme disagreement as to whether it should be used and whether some of the reasons given for its use justify it (you can do you own research on it, it is too vast to cover in a post).
See if this aids you comprehension, from earlier:
blasphemy is a blasphemy. Whether you are offended by it in the extreme or are “what’s a blasphemy” it is and always will be a blasphemy. So the Wider world has decided the word is offensive. Hopefully it always will be considered as such.
There is a definition earlier in the thread from a dictionary, or use your preferred one. I suspect you'll find that they all define the word as offensive.
Or are you really saying that you take offense of their right to use the word in whatever way they want ?
No. As I think you are well aware. See earlier about "provocative"
As earlier, anything else you need to know, it would be better if you simply googled it for yourself, it will mean more to you and you can double check sources.
Just to help me keep up at the back, can I request that people make it clear who they are addressing their posts to. Just saying ‘you’ in a 6 page thread is not enough for me to follow.
blasphemy is a blasphemy. Whether you are offended by it in the extreme or are “what’s a blasphemy” it is and always will be a blasphemy.
Well, that's complete bollocks for a start. What was blasphemous many moons ago could be perfectly acceptable now (for example, working on a Sunday)
What was blasphemous many moons ago could be perfectly acceptable now (for example, working on a Sunday)
I'm reasonably confident that the bible has not been rewritten recently so what was defined as blasphemy then is still defined as such.
That we accept it means we have changed our opinion on blasphemies but not what things are blasphemy.
Your living room is painted bright pink. You have decided that you aren't sufficiently annoyed by this to re paint it. Doesn't make it not pink. See the parallel?
Why can't people just stop being idiots?
I have a very simple philosophy...
As far as I'm concerned, people can do what they damn well please and call themselves what ever they want as long as they don't hurt others, then that's fine by me.
Well Matty, that's just fine as far as it goes and no one would object to that. The problem is what happens when they do hurt others. Should they stop just because people are hurt by it?
If only there was a long divisive thread discussing such behaviour.