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The problem is that TV tries to setup two contrary talking heads rather than getting into the principles and nuance
Nailed it. Not just on television, but everywhere in our media and the current freedom of speech proposals from government are designed to lend even the most batshit of assertions false equivalence. Until we give proper credence to investigative journalism and do not put charlatans and bullshitters on a pedestal then we will continue to see what I like to call the Delingpole Syndrome:
Fans of GB News will note who the anchor is and will also note that James Delingpole (who describes himself as a polemicist) has absolutely no grasp of the subject he's being asked to discuss. The guy is struggling to string together a coherent sentence, because all of his media training hasn't prepared him to understand the basic fundamentals about supranational trade agreements.
Just because something or someone is contrary that doesn’t mean it or they have value.
You are obviously free to make your own mind up on that, however in my opinion (which you are of course, free to ignore) the recent and depressing phenomenon of giving equal weight to opinions from ‘contrary’ individuals (to pick a nice term) as from experts in the field is leading to some pretty poor outcomes
You see, I'd argue this attitude is the main root of those problems, the problem isn't that people have silly opinions, it's that they have silly opinions and are by and large dismissed as idiots with silly opinions and ignored. Then we end up in the position we're in where neither side has any interest in the opinion or the even the existence of the other end of the spectrum until it bites us.
In your example half (a) the population will agree with non Dr and ignore the Dr, because the Dr and everyone who agrees with him will answer their concerns and lack of understanding of the other half with "because you're a moron and the dr/we are much cleverer than you".
The second half (b) side with the Dr and ignore not a Dr because they're morons and much stupider so not worth engaging with and everyone they speak to agrees with the Dr so there can't be more than a few people in group (a)
Made it 3:22 through Neil Oliver's speech. What's he talking about!? Mourning for the life he once lived!? His kids will never know the freedoms he enjoyed!? Oh the horror, how his kids must be suffering when they queue up outside Lidl because it's a bit busy. And imagine never experiencing the joy of standing shoulder to shoulder at a bar, desperately trying to get the attention of the bar man before yet another selfish arse jumps in before you rather than staying seated and ordering via the app. Nightmare.
You see, I’d argue this attitude is the main root of those problems, the problem isn’t that people have silly opinions, it’s that they have silly opinions and are by and large dismissed as idiots with silly opinions and ignored. Then we end up in the position we’re in where neither side has any interest in the opinion or the even the existence of the other end of the spectrum until it bites us.
I really don't know how far down the idiotic rabbit hole we need to go in order to help those who hold and regurgitate silly ideas feel loved and see sense. Ordinarily, they would be ignored until they went away, however our media landscape seems to indulge them. That's intentional and I don't think that's necessarily a good thing.
You see, I’d argue this attitude is the main root of those problems, the problem isn’t that people have silly opinions, it’s that they have silly opinions and are by and large dismissed as idiots with silly opinions and ignored. Then we end up in the position we’re in where neither side has any interest in the opinion or the even the existence of the other end of the spectrum until it bites us.
But the problem is that idiots cannot be persuaded. It doesn't matter how reasonable or understanding you are, they still persist with their nonsense. If half the population believes the moon is made of cheese because of what some bloke on the internet says & despite producing moon rock, Neil Armstrong & a battery of observable facts they won't change their mind, are you supposed to just accept that? Especially if their beliefs have a significant effect of society & we end up spending billions of £s trying to construct a Lunar cheese factory. Are they not, in fact, stupid?
As said above, the idea that everyone's opinion is of equal value is doing major harm to both society in general and the planet as a whole.
I really don’t know how far down the idiotic rabbit hole we need to go in order to help those who hold and regurgitate silly ideas [S] feel loved and see sense [/S]
Not that far, just actually discuss them and start from a point where we think there might be some merit in them somewhere rather than dismissing it like someone phoning to ask about your recent accident.
Ordinarily, they would be ignored until they went away, however our media landscape seems to indulge them. That’s intentional and I don’t think that’s necessarily a good thing.
This is what I was trying to get at. Somehow, pre-social media etc. we managed to avoid the huge levels of polarisation we see now. I suspect that's because in general, the media used to go to known experts in a field and outlying 'silly' opinions just didn't get aired and therefore didn't build up traction.
Now anyone can shout from the rooftops the silly opinions get the same airing as the expert ones so they get more traction, the camps form, the arguments begin, and before you know it nothing gets done because the common point of view has vanished.
In my example, I think I forgot a vital component which is to say that if a person decides to have a home birth having taken advice from a medical professional (maybe they've had 3 kids with zero complications already, or some other combination of factors) then I'd support that a lot more than if they'd made the decision having only watched a bunch of ranty YouTube videos on the matter.
You probably once believed the moon was made of cheese, what changed your mind are facts, presented in a way you could understand and grasp them allowing you to move forward and accept them.
The reality is "idiots" are a result of society being unable to teach them not people being incapable of learning. It's not their failing.
I assume you're happy to accept you need to teach maths differently to different people, why is politics different?
The reason we end up with crap like news gb or the guardian letters page is people on mass can't be bothered to explain things so we take all the difficult kids, put them in a room of their own then wonder why it's gone a bit lord of the flies by the end of the week. And at 3.30 on Friday do we open that door think, "oh dear, best do something" or do we close it again quietly and think it's not worth the effort.
This is what I was trying to get at. Somehow, pre-social media etc. we managed to avoid the huge levels of polarisation we see now
That's the important bit, it was always there, you just didn't look. You didn't go to the pub with the George Cross in the window 365 days a year so you didn't see the people who did.
Made it 3:22 through Neil Oliver’s speech.
I couldn’t get that far. I don’t know who he is, or why he’s been given a ‘sermon slot’, but that’s so far the most foul thing I’ve seen on any UK network channel since the pandemic began.
He’s as good as inciting mass civil disobedience no matter how bad a situation we find ourselves in with the virus.
You probably once believed the moon was made of cheese
isn't there a rule in probability maths about not making absolute assertions because you won't tend believe the evidence if it turns out to be true.
The reality is “idiots” are a result of society being unable to teach them not people being incapable of learning. It’s not their failing.
I assume you’re happy to accept you need to teach maths differently to different people, why is politics different?
I am indeed happy with that. But I'm not sure that's what we're discussing. It's one thing for someone to say 'I don't understand how you took 2 from here and 2 from there got four, any chance of explaining it differently?'. It's another thing for someone to say 'I don't understand therefore you're completely wrong it's the answer is obviously 7'.
And yes we should be helping the second set of people as well, but it's haaaaaaaaard and I'm tired and it's too hot. And it requires thought which is hard work.
You probably once believed the moon was made of cheese, what changed your mind are facts, presented in a way you could understand and grasp them allowing you to move forward and accept them.
The reality is “idiots” are a result of society being unable to teach them not people being incapable of learning. It’s not their failing.
I assume you’re happy to accept you need to teach maths differently to different people, why is politics different?
Have you not being attention over the past few years? According to mainstream Western Liberal opinion, what you have written is how it is supposed to work. People are rational, reasonable & once everything is explained to them, they will come to the correct, sensible conclusion.
Unfortunately it's not like that. The internet has facilitated a culture where people are subjected to ideas which pander to their prejudices and bias and play on their ability to believe what they want to believe. The whole Brexit campaign, pre-referendum, was based on presenting a reasonable facts-based explanation of the benefits of staying in the EU & the problems that leaving would create. Present the truth and the correct result would prevail. That worked well didn't it? No wonder Remain subsequently went down a more visceral & emotional path after the result came out
I'm was about to go register mooncheese.com but someone's beaten me to it.
Have you not being attention over the past few years...
... That worked well didn’t it?
I'll keep my answer to that very short because it really is a whole other thread and one which frankly would be better had mask to mask over a couple of beers.
I've been paying attention, for a lot longer than I'd suggest you have if you think "the Internet" has done much but stop a lot of people hiding the ugly bits of the world away from themselves. The huge number of people who don't agree with [insert anything you like] have always been there they're not new, it's just before the Internet "you" thought there weren't many, now you think there are.
GB news, brietbart et al are nothing new, they've just gotten fewer with bigger budgets.
I’m was about to go register mooncheese.com but someone’s beaten me to it.
Isn't that what the guy from sick does these days?
Not that far, just actually discuss them and start from a point where we think there might be some merit in them somewhere rather than dismissing it like someone phoning to ask about your recent accident.
But it doesn't work like that. My cousin is anti-Vaxx and believes that climate change is a hoax. We (my other cousin, my brother and I) have shared links that explain the science, but the response invariably starts with "my friend is an ecologist and she says...". It's infuriating, but it's safe to say that we're not starting from a terribly good place and I simply can't be arsed to explain it or to devote much time trying to understand it. We're all vulnerable to fake news, whether we are prepared to admit it or not but some of us are able to accept that our perceptions were incorrect and move on from there. Some...can't.
You probably once believed the moon was made of cheese, what changed your mind are facts, presented in a way you could understand and grasp them allowing you to move forward and accept them.
That basically happened as soon as I could pick up a book and/or ask an adult "what is the moon made of" when the Junior Illustrated Encyclopaedia of Space (or similar) was duly borrowed from the library.
I do think that the industry that's sprouted to conflate opinion (whether real or manufactured) with actual news is a very, very dangerous thing and that those who are supporting this are extremely irresponsible.
The huge number of people who don’t agree with [insert anything you like] have always been there they’re not new, it’s just before the Internet “you” thought there weren’t many, now you think there are
On the contrary. I think they have always been there*, but now they feel empowered, they can communicate with each other more easily and therefore have more influence.
*Anecdote time: My mother's side of the family were all, to a greater or lesser degree anti-semitic. In particular, one of my aunts was a full-on holocaust denier. There was no point in discussing it with her. Once, when I was about 10 I found myself arguing with her about whether the verb 'to volley' existed. Eventually I went and got a dictionary and pointed out the appropriate entry. Guesss what. I didn't win the argument. You have to accept that some people will never abandon their beliefs & prejudices, the internet has helped to validate and expand that sort of mindset.
GB news, brietbart et al are nothing new, they’ve just gotten fewer with bigger budgets.
And dwindling audiences
the Junior Illustrated Encyclopaedia of Space
Did you borrow that from Holly?
There’s a great documentary on Netflix about flat earthers, who stick to their guns for a variety of reasons no matter what.
The last point it makes is that if we have an environment where people will believe that, they’ll believe (or deny) anything.
It’s called Behind the Curve and well worth a watch.
You cannot change someones mind if all they have is faith ie belief without evidence. why? Because they do not need evidence adn want to believe.
it doesn't matter if its brexit or religion or flat earth. You can never shake their certainty.
Brxit, racism etc are all illogical positions. You will never change them with logic.
"Reasoning will never make a Man correct an ill Opinion, which by Reasoning he never acquired"
- Jonathan Swift
Brxit, racism etc are all illogical positions. You will never change them with logic.
Neither with facts, overwhelming evidence, science, etc etc.
Neil Oliver can totally go **** himself.
Seemed such a decent/ amiable guy in the programs I've seen him in.
Hope his career goes down the sh*tter now frankly.
Sorry, not in a great mood today!
I am not sure why people are so work up with all the different views or opinions. GB News is just another news. We all been there nothing new to be honest ... left, centre, right views etc. They are just news to attract certain people.
Relax, people are people regardless, be yourself as nobody is asking you to accept or to reject their opinions. If you accept their views, fine, if you reject that is fine too.
Life is short, in few years time you could be retiring and the question is when are you going to start living? Chill, relax ...
Hope his career goes down the sh*tter now frankly.
He wouldn't have joined GBeebies if his career wasn't already circling the drain.
Behind the Curve and well worth a watch.
It very much is.
I am not sure why people are so work up with all the different views or opinions.
Because some of them are actively dangerous.
Mate, in all seriousness, are you OK? I've long noticed an ongoing correlation between your varying presentation of English and the amount of bollocks you spout, when you're posting sensible contributions your grammar is perfect and the more whack your posts are the less they're literate. For all that people tease you, is there something going on with you that we need to be making allowances for?
Because some of them are actively dangerous.
LOL! You don't do dangerous in UK.
As my Kiwi friend says British people whinge a lot ... LOL! <<< that's probably much more "dangerous" LOL!
Mate, in all seriousness, are you OK? I’ve long noticed an ongoing correlation between your varying presentation of English and the amount of bollocks you spout, when you’re posting sensible contributions your grammar is perfect and the more whack your posts are the less they’re literate. For all that people tease you, is there something going on with you that we need to be making allowances for?
Nahh ... as the saying goes I am as happy as Larry (really) albeit could do with more money.
I am multi-tasking that's why. Quick dip in and dip out from work. When I am not working I am falling asleep. When I am working I need to escape. 3 monitors in front of me so need to constantly deal with emails etc, providing long answer is not easy after all most people on STW are not spring chickens (how old are you lot again? How many Phds do you have?) so my response is usually short unless I am skiving.
most people on STW are not spring chickens so my response is usually short
🤣🤣
Relax, people are people regardless, be yourself as nobody is asking you to accept or to reject their opinions. If you accept their views, fine, if you reject that is fine too.
If that was the end of it then yes, fine. Unfortunately these views are now directly affecting my life for the worse. To put it another way, I accept your right to be an ass in the same way I accept other people’s right to be religious. Fine with me, just don’t make me go to church.
I can't separate Neil Oliver from Robert Clach in Burnistoun. Probably for the best given where he's ended up.
I am not sure why people are so work up with all the different views or opinions. GB News is just another news.
No.
This is ‘news’:
“The City Of London has been put into lockdown for the second time in 12 months…”
This isn’t ‘news’:
: “They SAY this is the end of lockdown and Freedom Has Begun , but ai know that they will do it again. As sure as there is a little fire in wallet every time I press the right buttons you can be sure that lockdown is the worst thing that can happen in someone’s life, and many are feeling as if their voices aren’t being listened to. It’s OK for some to persecute and mock those without masks. But do they stop to think…etc”
^ more aptly described as partisan propaganda and courting incitement. Cultivating and feeding extremely prejudiced and misinformed opinions about a topic is dangerous. Example:
London, United Kingdom – One year ago, the UK was placed under its first lockdown as the coronavirus surged across the country.
Since then, Britain’s East and Southeast Asian communities have seen a 300-percent increase in hate crimes, according to End the Virus of Racism, a UK-based advocacy group.
Peng Wang was attacked last month as he was jogging near his house [Courtesy: Peng Wang]
Did you borrow that from Holly?
The respect you have for me is awesome, innit?
Because some of them are actively dangerous.
Here are but a few examples as to why misleading headlines and opinion led, hedge fund backed Kakomercial television channels like GB News are an active menace:
"No reasonable viewer takes Tucker Carlson seriously"
Fact-checking Sen. Ron Johnson's continued efforts to mislead on Covid-19 and January 6 insurrection
If that was the end of it then yes, fine. Unfortunately these views are now directly affecting my life for the worse. To put it another way, I accept your right to be an ass in the same way I accept other people’s right to be religious. Fine with me, just don’t make me go to church.
Nahhh ... most things in this world do not affect people in a big way. Minor inconvenience yes but if it is major then you are doing something wrong.
Religious? Nahhh ... We/I see them coming, the real and the fake ones where I come from. I have no problem with religions whatever they are.
^ more aptly described as partisan propaganda and courting incitement. Cultivating and feeding extremely prejudiced and misinformed opinions about a topic is dangerous. Example:
Peng Wang was attacked last month as he was jogging near his house [Courtesy: Peng Wang]
Yes, try to find out the culprit who attack Chinese or oriental looking people. Same in USA, try to find out who are attacking the Chinese or oriental looking people.
GBnews learning that riling up conspiracy nuts can bite you in the arse
https://twitter.com/WritesBright/status/1417196476887863298?s=19
GBnews learning that riling up conspiracy nuts can bite you in the arse
Well, well - isn't is something when you reap what you sow?
Judging by the look of the crowd which seems to comprise of angry middle aged gym dodgers with blood pressure issues, I wonder how many of them will be on ventilators in eight to ten days or so after attending today's super-spreader event?
Ordinarily, they would be ignored until they went away, however our media landscape seems to indulge them. That’s intentional and I don’t think that’s necessarily a good thing.
It suits the media and their masters in positions of power - divide and conquer.
providing long answer is not easy after all most people on STW are not spring chickens
The responses are still way too long and would be much better if you try to keep it to one line so I can skip past them more quickly please.
'Relax, people are people regardless, be yourself as nobody is asking you to accept or to reject their opinions. If you accept their views, fine, if you reject that is fine too.'
That, my dogmatic friend is exactly where your argument falls down as many of these arguments will impact you at some point. And quite probably not in a way you will like. Be it COVID, climate change, future of NHS and government in general, foreigners out etc etc etc
was flicking through channels this morning and GB News had a story about a "Whopper" Swan :D.... and how can you have a "news" ticker that has a tic!
was flicking through channels this morning and GB News had a story about a “Whopper” Swan
^ Freudian tic?
Neil promised that “if you want fake news, lies, disinformation, distortion of the facts, conspiracy theories, then GB News is not for you”.
An hour later, however, presenter Dan Wootton said: “Lockdowns are a crude measure. Mark my words, we will discover that they have caused far more deaths and devastation than the Government has ever admitted. They should be wiped from the public health playbook forever more. But tragically the doomsday scientists and public health officials have taken control. They are addicted to power and the Government’s 15-month-long, never-ending scare campaign has suitably terrified the public into supporting lockdowns.”
It is not unreasonable to state that Wootton’s views border on conspiracy theory and misinformation – suggesting that public health officials are in fact power-crazed despots determined to shackle Britain to lockdown measures indefinitely. https://bylinetimes.com/2021/06/14/gb-news-andrew-neil-should-we-ignore-them/
Whoppers are definitely on their menu and overwhelmingly so. The real trick is in packaging and hawking them as wholesome, healthy fare. Could turn out that, after all, even Neil didn’t have the stomach for that? Or am I being overly-benevolent and optimistic?
Former DUP leader Arlene Foster joins news channel GB News
^^ What the actual rubber duck.😐
Just paving the way for Katie Hopkins..
Just watched a bit.
In "The Big Question" they were interviewing political heavyweights... Right Said Fred.
Turns out they are lockdown/ vaccine sceptics.
They "won't be performing at any venues requiring Covid passports."
I'm not sure the country can recover from this devastating news.
Former DUP leader Arlene Foster joins news channel GB News
She did such a great job at helping to put a border in the Irish sea between Great Britain and Northern Ireland, she should be perfect.
Former DUP leader Arlene Foster joins news channel GB News
That won't be helping the open minded ratio.
Right Said Fred won’t perform? That’s a shame. I’m not convinced they were performing before Covid anyway. Suspect they’ll now claim they were cancelled when clearly they’re just one hit has beens.
Did someone steal Neil Oliver’s Mars bar as a kid? He seems to have harboured a great deal of anger which is seeping out now.
Robert Clach in Burnistoun
HOW have I never heard of this before? This thread was worth the price of entry for that tip-off alone.
Just paving the way for Katie Hopkins..
I called that first, get your own wild speculation. (-:
Did someone steal Neil Oliver’s Mars bar as a kid? He seems to have harboured a great deal of anger which is seeping out now.
I think he gets a lot of abuse online and things sent to him in the mail by "civic" Scottish Nationalists
Always best to keep all the nuts in one store.
I think he gets a lot of abuse online and things sent to him in the mail by “civic” Scottish Nationalists
Any opportunity to have a sly dig eh?
Ok Couger i raise your Katie Hopkins with a Tommy Robinson....
Weird, the Grunaid was basically reporting the opposite this morning
https://www.theguardian.coandrew-neil-outflanked-by-nigel-farage-in-gb-news-culture-war
Suggests the whole thing is an ongoing shambles.
Did anyone actually expect Farage to do the day job? His entire political career is based on enjoying the limelight and not actually doing the work.
Now I dislike that guy immensely but the article seems to be totally missing the bit where he said "off for the week" so presumably he doesn't need to specify a return date as it's just the week after next. Crap reporting in an effort to make something out of nothing is still crap reporting.
I think I'm becoming addicted to it, sort of disbelief that they can be so openly disingenuous and every single person on it is obnoxious, sorry I can't untangle the mix of emotions I get watching it, I think amazement and fear that people somewhere take it seriously, that Wotton guy is horrible.
They should be wiped from the public health playbook forever more. But tragically the doomsday scientists and public health officials have taken control. They are addicted to power and the Government’s 15-month-long, never-ending scare campaign has suitably terrified the public into supporting lockdowns.”
1918 would like to have a word about pandemic precautions…
https://media.zenfs.com/en-US/att_cnn_articles_909/b41450b9f998805175a3ec7bd7ef3c6 7" alt="" />
I think he gets a lot of abuse online and things sent to him in the mail by “civic” Scottish Nationalists
He's a strange one, his latest anti Vax rantings have pretty much kiboshed a fairly decent career.
LOL! You don’t do dangerous in UK.
Chewkw, the above statement from you of a month ago seems a little inaccurate, given the recent events in Plymouth.
He’s a strange one, his latest anti Vax rantings have pretty much kiboshed a fairly decent career.
He was on GB News because his views fit, why we need to know the wider opinions of an archeologist tells it's own story I think.
why we need to know the wider opinions of an archeologist tells it’s own story I think.
The occupation of a talking head doesn't really matter. The question is whether they have a pertinent point or not. There are plenty of commentators I don't like but sometimes they have a point, probably not the answer but they can raise a question that deserves a better answer than the status quo
And then theres Neil Oliver....
why we need to know the wider opinions of an archeologist tells it’s own story I think
The same could be said for most journalists/professional columnists. At least an archaeologist will have some professional training in assessing evidence and coming up with a conclusion even if, just like anyone else, they can go off the deep end at random.
After listening to him I think this particular archeologist should have stuck to archeology, he was quite good at that, and a compelling tv presenter, he could have championed a cause like David Attenborough with a bit of dignity, but chose anti vax and GB News, seemingly unaware of the credibility self assassination.
the latest from Andrew Neil (apologies for the link to the fail)
They sound great 🙂
the latest from Andrew Neil (apologies for the link to the fail)
So while the ratf@&£ers at the Mail bemoan the rise of the SNP, the Greens and any other left of centre moderate party they continue to publish exactly the divisive drivel that has led people like me to vote for an independent Scotland. Britain is sick and the Mail is the dogshit that’s given us all Toxocariasis.
Britain is sick and the Mail is the dogshit that’s given us all Toxocariasis.
Accurate.
I didn't know who Neil Oliver was so had to go look him up, then I realised I knew exactly who he was from those pleasantly narrated historical documentaries. Bit shocked tbh, so I had to delve a bit deeper and watch one his clips from GBNews...
WTAF?? It's like a glimpse into a dystopian future. Are we already there? All the films I've watched over the years predicting this level of propaganda in mainstream society, I never thought it would actually happen...
^^ I agree, really liked the historical documentaries he's done then you find out that he has some pretty distasteful/damaging opinions to air.
Going to find it hard to rewatch any of them in the future now as it's going to niggle away at me.
Neil Oliver
Here’s the thing: If your freedom means I might catch Covid from you, then so be it. If my freedom means you might catch Covid from me, then so be it. That is honestly how I see it. For the sake of freedom – yours and mine together – I will cheerfully risk catching Covid
Nice guy. He thinks that giving me COVID is worthwhile for his freedom. He lives in the UK, does he really think he has any real constraints on his freedom?
Where is Darwin when you need him?
He’s a strange one, his latest anti Vax rantings have pretty much kiboshed a fairly decent career.
We saw him talk at Pitlochry a couple of years ago. There was something David Icke-ish about him then and he seems to have free fallen into full on batshit mental nasty bastard since.
Great hair though.
Guess he can kiss goodbye to that Timotei endorsement then....
I quite liked his programmes. I reckon he can also kiss goodbye to any future BBC programmes, maybe he has ran out of stories from the coast so has had to resort to going bat shit crazy.
I'm sure he said something along the lines of 'we have never in our history vaccinated our children like this'. I remember thinking that's because we have never been able to analyse a genome and develop vaccines at such a pace..
Mmm looks like a ****, talks like a ****, has opinions of a ****...
Therefore he is a ****.
Andrew Neil not turning up to work at GB News on Monday after all.
When the time came Neil Armstrong turned up for work. Why this traitor feels he can spurn his country in these dark hours I don't know.
HE IS A TRAYTER SHOULD BE ARSETESTED AND SENT TO THE TOWIE