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There are less antagonistic politicians who could be elected.
There are, but the Israelis have democratically chosen Netanyahu over and over again. So I don’t buy the apologists’ line that Israel really wants peace and justice.
Well, not really. the Knesset is PR so he often wins on razor thin margins; for instance 40,000 votes and 23% of the vote last election a couple of years ago for his party. In the trad left, Meretz and Labour have split, and there's been a rule change about how much of the vote you need to get a seat. Meretz won 3.2% and an Arabic party (who also used to be in coalition with meretz and labour ) won just 2.9% of the vote...All of those votes; discarded.
If they hadn't, the Knesset would've had a 60:60 seat tie.
there's 40 or so parties running in each election, the top five of the "Netanyahu side" got 49.6% and the same of the 'left' got 48.9%. So to say that he gets voted in over and over again is overly simplistic and misses the nuance that a good percentage of 'Israel' really wants peace and justice, including some of the right wing parties in his own current coalition. How what's happened since last October will effect next elections, who the hells knows. I think its probably curtains for Netanyahu though.
Everyone will need to get behind me in the line of folks ready to criticise Netanyahu and call Israel what it undoubtedly is; an apartheid state, but that's not what more than half (at last election) want for their country and they want to change it, so whether you 'buy' it or not, that's the inconveniently sloppy reality, the world after all doesn't often fall neatly to good guy- bad guy narratives. I think we forget that victims can be abusers and vice versa.
There are, but the Israelis have democratically chosen Netanyahu over and over again. So I don’t buy the apologists’ line that Israel really wants peace and justice.
At the end of the day it doesn't matter what either you or I think, ask the "71% (who) think Netanyahu should resign either immediately or right after war" https://www.timesofisrael.com/poll-71-think-netanyahu-should-resign-either-immediately-or-right-after-war/
Deleted my reply. I think I’ll step away in deference to Mark.
I noticed a couple of 'hopeful' stories in the news today, possibly as a result of the horror of what's going on in Gaza.
If looks like both Australia and Ireland are prepared to consider and support Palestinian statehood.
I've always wondered why, when a two state solution is always discussed when peace talks are mentioned, that Palestine is never recognised as a true state (the USA effectively votes as if they were Israel at the UN).
Obviously Hamas are a sticking point and not easily resolved, but it could be a start.
If looks like both Australia and Ireland are prepared to consider and support Palestinian statehood.
I’ve always wondered why, when a two state solution is always discussed when peace talks are mentioned, that Palestine is never recognised as a true state (the USA effectively votes as if they were Israel at the UN).
The U.S. put a lot of work into a two-state solution in the 1990s so "considering and supporting" Palestinian statehood isn't really any change. Palestine isn't recognized as a state because it isn't one. It would need to have agreed borders, but a Palestinian state alongside an Israeli state would require recognizing Israel's right to coexist peacefully (in other words, Palestinian militant groups and their backers in Iran, etc. would have to stop launching attacks on Israel.) So, Palestine can't become a state until groups like Hamas, whose reason for existence to to destroy Israel, are removed from the equation and replaced by Palestinian leaders who want a peace treaty.
Thirty years ago, that looked like it might have been possible, but the negotiations failed and the situation is even worse now. Israeli moderates have been sidelined by right-wing factions so the situation now is that events are driven by the most extreme groups on both sides, groups who benefit from conflict and chaos, and they aren't going to just step aside and let moderates negotiate a way of the war.
Egypt still has a closed border to Gazan refugees but oddly attracts zero criticism from anti Israeli keyboard warriors. Odd.
The IDF have now all but withdrawn from the Gaza strip, What will Iran do next? They're the puppet masters of this war.
Worth remembering the treatment that Bomber Command got after WW2. When they finally got a memorial, anti-war group Pledge Peace Union criticised it as a "monument of shame" for turning "war crimes" into something heroic. Stephen Fry's "Who Betrayed the Bomber Boys" explored the subject in more detail.
In the UK there are questions to be answered about the allegation that 12 employees of UNWRA were complicit in the 7 Oct attacks, and the Scottish government pledging £500,000 to UNWRA on Oct 14.
"Palestine can’t become a state until groups like Hamas, whose reason for existence to to destroy Israel..."
We've been through this already but no it isn't.
"Egypt still has a closed border to Gazan refugees but oddly attracts zero criticism from anti Israeli keyboard warriors. Odd."
Related to them not committing genocide.
In the UK there are questions to be answered about the allegation that 12 employees of UNWRA were complicit in the 7 Oct attacks, and the Scottish government pledging £500,000 to UNWRA on Oct 14.
OK, I'll bite but I really should just ignore obvious troll
Is there really?, out of 13,000 UNRWA workers employed by the organisation inside Gaza the Israeli government alleged that 12 employees were complicit, yet the Israeli government had the details of every single Gazan UNWRA worker and gave them security clearance - has this report been independently verified yet as we all know how much the Israeli government and IDF lies. I say Israel played a blinder with that accusation as funding and the ability of UNWRA was severely curtailed which served the Israeli government very well, it certainly got talked about around the world.
I gave money/donations to UNWRA amongst other other organisations, you want to investigate me?, and the Scottish government giving £500,000, it should have been more.
UNRWA state released on 8th April - Funding
Glancing through this thread there are the questions about Israel's right to even exist, naturally. Funnily enough, believe it or not, history goes back further than the 20th Century. The Province of Judaea was renamed Syria Palaestina by the Romans to humiliate and dispossess the Jews from their land, after putting down the rebellion. They destroyed around 1000 villages and killed half a million Jews, ethnically cleansing the region, which was then colonised by people of Greek origin.
Egypt still has a closed border to Gazan refugees but oddly attracts zero criticism from anti Israeli keyboard warriors. Odd.
You clearly havent been paying attention from behind your own keyboard. They have been criticised but oddly enough they obviously dont have the same level of responsibility. Aside from anything else whilst unpleasant its not really unexpected that they would have concerns about how long those refugees would be displaced for.
The IDF have now all but withdrawn from the Gaza strip, What will Iran do next? They’re the puppet masters of this war.
The evidence for this is? Whilst they obviously benefit from continuing conflict its not obvious why they would have wanted the fullscale conflict which erupted. If they had orchestrated it I would have expected some additional actions on their part.
Worth remembering the treatment that Bomber Command got after WW2.
Not sure what your point is here?
In the UK there are questions to be answered about the allegation that 12 employees of UNWRA were complicit in the 7 Oct attacks
They have about 30k staff of which about 13k are based in Gaza. So it really wouldnt be surprising if there were some involved. So what questions need answering?
They destroyed around 1000 villages and killed half a million Jews, ethnically cleansing the region, which was then colonised by people of Greek origin.
In that case, all civilized nations should join the US in prioritizing arming Israel over domestic healthcare henceforth, in case any Palestinian familes who happen to be minding their own business escape punishment for crimes of the past that they had absolutely no part in.
OK, I’ll bite but I really should just ignore obvious troll
Oh dear! Yes, the measured, intelligent response we've come to expect, that can't even manage to get past one sentence without an insult. Someone with a different point of view to you isn't "a troll". It's just someone with a different point of view to you. Imagine that!
Yes I do think questions must be asked of where public funds go and why, especially given Hamas's track record of misappropriation. what you do with your money really isn't something I'll lose sleep over.
I applaud your efforts to root out corruption and seek out misappropriation of funds!
Attorney General Avichai Mandelblit’s recommendations of fraud, bribery and breach of trust charges on Thursday concluded a two-year investigation into a range of corruption allegations against Netanyahu. The cases centered on the leader’s backroom dealings with Israeli newspaper publishers and a telecom company aimed at scoring more favorable coverage, as well as with a Hollywood media mogul who allegedly showered him with hundreds of thousands of dollars in illicit gifts.
These may be the weightiest corruption allegations against Netanyahu, but they are hardly the first.
Throughout his decade in office, the embattled Netanyahu has encountered a series of embarrassing scandals. He and his wife Sara, who has been separately indicted for alleged overspending, have gained a reputation for leading indulgent lives at public expense.
The IDF have now all but withdrawn from the Gaza strip
Word on the street is this is in preparation for an offensive on Rafah. They are still present around almost the entire border of the Gaza strip, and maintain a line that completely cuts off the northern third of Gaza from the south, from the 1948 Armistice Line to the Mediterranean coast.
israelpalestine.liveuamap.com seems to be a source of decent, up-to-date unfiltered news and tweets direct from sources on all sides. It's certainly keeping me up to date with what to expect in the next week or so...
“Palestine can’t become a state until groups like Hamas, whose reason for existence to to destroy Israel…”
We’ve been through this already but no it isn’t.
Hamas' stated intent as per their 2017 re-jigged charter is a reunification of Palestine as a single sovereign state from the River Jordan in the east to the Mediterranean in the west, and from Umm al-Rashrash (Eilat) in the south to Ras al-Naqurah (Kfar Rosh HaNikra) in the north. That covers the entirety of the country of Israel. How do you think Hamas can achieve this without removing Israel from the map?
Best ask those who fund their activities...
https://www.thenation.com/article/world/why-netanyahu-bolstered-hamas/
Wars help hide political scandals. The ongoing Israeli assault on Gaza has been singularly useful to prime minister Benjamin Netanyahu in sidelining popular anger at his government’s numerous failings. The massive protests against Netanyahu’s authoritarian attempts to weaken the courts dwindled after Hamas October 7 attack, although there are signs they are resuming force. The intelligence failures that allowed the October 7 attack to take place have received some press attention—but have yet to be the focus of sustained political ire.
The same is true of Netanyahu’s longstanding policy of bolstering Hamas rule in Gaza, including encouraging Israel’s de facto ally Qatar to finance the terrorist organization. While the much-respected Israeli newspaper Haaretz has covered this issue, it has been largely ignored by the international press.
On Sunday, The New York Times gave new prominence to the long-standing Netanyahu-Hamas connection in a detailed and lengthy report. According to the newspaper:
Just weeks before Hamas launched the deadly Oct. 7 attacks on Israel, the head of Mossad arrived in Doha, Qatar, for a meeting with Qatari officials.
For years, the Qatari government had been sending millions of dollars a month into the Gaza Strip—money that helped prop up the Hamas government there. Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu of Israel not only tolerated those payments, he had encouraged them.
According to the Times, Israeli intelligence agents traveled into Gaza with a Qatari official carrying suitcases filled with cash to disperse money. Retired Israeli general Shlomo Brom described the logic of Netanyahu’s position: “One effective way to prevent a two-state solution is to divide between the Gaza Strip and the West Bank.” If the extremist Hamas ruled Gaza, then the Palestinian Authority—a compromised comprador government with a tenuous hold on the West Bank—would be further weakened. This, according to Brom, would allow Netanyahu to say, “I have no partner.”
"Hamas’ stated intent as per their 2017 re-jigged charter is a reunification of Palestine as a single sovereign state from the River Jordan in the east to the Mediterranean in the west, and from Umm al-Rashrash (Eilat) in the south to Ras al-Naqurah (Kfar Rosh HaNikra) in the north. That covers the entirety of the country of Israel. How do you think Hamas can achieve this without removing Israel from the map"
D'you know, I'm not sure it IS their stated intent, at least not explicitly - it defines Palestine as you have and clearly states their aim is to liberate Palestine but it also acknowledges that a Palestine restored to 1967 borders is the "formula of national consensus". I think the amibiguity is deliberate.
This discussion, while still raising interesting and relevant points on both sides, is recently starting to degenerate a bit...
People tend to respond to things by dodging the question and saying "oh but XYZ also does it"
"Hamas is bad because X"
"but what about Israel"
"Israel did X"
"but what about Hamas!"
etc
One example: (there are more)
Q: How do you think Hamas can achieve this without removing Israel from the map?
A: Best ask those who fund their activities…
It's possible to talk about both without resorting to politicians' annoying non-answers...
That being said, it does seem to be the ones with entrenched opinions for/against one side or the other who behave like this, and a thank you to most people here with a more balanced viewpoint (even if you are more 'pro' one side or the other, this does not preclude balanced discussion and seeing the other's point of view)
it also acknowledges that a Palestine restored to 1967 borders is the “formula of national consensus”
I don't think it does though. We're reading their Charter from our perspective, where borders and lands etc. were as stated in various post-WWI declarations. The Hamas Charter chapter 18 says they do not recognise any of the various laws and documents and treaties that resulted in the creation of "Israel" as a safe place for Jews, nor the creation of any borders or any distribution of land. We should be reading their charter as if the Balfour Declaration and what followed never existed, because that's the mindset of those who wrote it.
Hence Hamas is the perfect vehicle for the Israeli state to justify continued apartheid and collective punishment of the Palestinians, whilst continually sidestepping progress towards a 2 state solution and continuing an aggressive settlement policy
Which leads us to the question;
In what circumstance would multiple reports of Israeli intelligence funding Hamas via backchannels with the full knowledge of Netanyahu not be relevant here?
"I don’t think it does though. We’re reading their Charter from our perspective, where borders and lands etc. were as stated in various post-WWI declarations. The Hamas Charter chapter 18 says they do not recognise any of the various laws and documents and treaties that resulted in the creation of “Israel” as a safe place for Jews, nor the creation of any borders or any distribution of land. We should be reading their charter as if the Balfour Declaration and what followed never existed, because that’s the mindset of those who wrote it."
I think clause 20 fairly explicitly does -
"20. Hamas believes that no part of the land of Palestine shall be compromised or conceded, irrespective of the causes, the circumstances and the pressures and no matter how long the occupation lasts. Hamas rejects any alternative to the full and complete liberation of Palestine, from the river to the sea.
<b>However, without compromising its rejection of the Zionist entity and without relinquishing any Palestinian rights, Hamas considers the establishment of a fully sovereign and independent Palestinian state, with Jerusalem as its capital along the lines of the 4th of June 1967, with the return of the refugees and the displaced to their homes from which they were expelled, to be a formula of national consensus.</B>"
(My linebreak and failed attempt to bold)
For me, saying "Palestine is defined by these margins, we want an entirely free and self-governed Palestine but we recognise that there's a national consensus on the 1967 borders" is a step towards recognising that compromise is necessary for there to be a solution. But what do I know - likely that's just my unwavering positivity. 🙂
In what circumstance would multiple reports of Israeli intelligence funding Hamas via backchannels with the full knowledge of Netanyahu not be relevant here?
Because it's already been done on this and the previous closed threads?
In what circumstance would multiple reports of Israeli intelligence funding Hamas via backchannels with the full knowledge of Netanyahu not be relevant here?
No one said it's not relevant to the subject, sure it is (if discussed properly etc etc yes Mark 😉)
However you posted it as a direct answer to:
Hamas’ stated intent as per their 2017 re-jigged charter is a reunification of Palestine as a single sovereign state from the River Jordan in the east to the Mediterranean in the west, and from Umm al-Rashrash (Eilat) in the south to Ras al-Naqurah (Kfar Rosh HaNikra) in the north. That covers the entirety of the country of Israel. How do you think Hamas can achieve this without removing Israel from the map?
In that context it's irrelevant.
I'm sure Hamas would be very happy to take Israeli money AND remove them from the map!
If you have issue with the facts presented, it's probably best taking it up with the Israeli generals and members of the Israeli intelligence services who have put forward these accounts.
I’m not disputing facts (that Qatar have been putting money into Gaza, and security for Qatari officials entering Gaza is provided by Israel). It’s what you draw from that which is the conspiracy theory: the idea that the attacks on Israel are either orchestrated or allowed by Israel itself.
Edit: nevermind, for risk of falling foul of Post #1
Are you suggesting that of all people, Netanyahu is beyond questioning?
No one is suggesting that.
"multiple reports of Israeli intelligence funding Hamas via backchannels"
The source quoted does not say that Israeli intelligence funded Hamas, and neither does it suggest that Israeli intelligence controlled Hamas. It says that Israel allowed Qatar to part fund the Gaza administration and Hamas. That is materially different. The reasons why Netanyahu thought this was a good idea, and why it was not at all a good idea, have already been discussed above.
It’s what you draw from that which is the conspiracy theory: the idea that the attacks on Israel are either orchestrated or allowed by Israel itself.
I'm going to be controversial here. I'm not going full conspiracy, but I'm surprised so many refuse to consider that there may a small element to this opinion.
There's no doubt Israel had warning that Hamas were preparing something. It is possible - and that's all I'm suggesting - that Israel thought it would be something small scale, easily contained, and give them a chance to justify going after Hamas, giving them a military mission, and get popular opinion behind a struggling and unpopular government.
I don't believe the Israelis would have allowed something on this scale to happen, let alone been actively complicit in allowing something this happen. I'm just saying they may have massively underestimated what Hamas were capable of.
It's a possibility, we'll probably never know, but struggling regimes have made tragic mistakes before.
Don't think that's too controversial MoreCash, probably the way most informed people view it, a political miscalculation rather than a grand conspiracy theory.
Like Hamas, the current Israeli government opposes a two state solition and exploiting the differences between Fatah and Hamas suited their purpose.
And on the topic of a two state solution... In he unlikely event of it ever happening, how long would it be before a two state solution became a three state solution? Much as happened with the partition of India that led to he creation of West ****stan and East ****stan, only for a civil war to break out that saw the breaking away of East ****stan, forming of the state of Bangladesh.
multiple reports of Israeli intelligence funding Hamas via backchannels
Yep... I stand by that
Impressed that such reasonable discussion is being had; all too often people try and imply I'm suggesting something more elaborate; both MoreCash and inkster have made reasonable and concise analyses
So given that Netanyahu is not beyond question, what questions should we be asking?
"It is possible – and that’s all I’m suggesting – that Israel thought it would be something small scale, easily contained..."
If that were the case, you'd expect some small scale preparation for containment, and you'd need the IDF and intelligence to be on board with fighting a "small, victorious war" to support the political ambitions of Netanyahu. The first didn't happen, and the second seems very unlikely: Netanyahu is not a dictator, and in a small country with a citizen army, military adventurism comes with a high price. Israel is not Russia where the President can send thousands of poor young men into the meat grinder overnight and not face political consequences.
That certainly didn't happen... instead, the IDF killed many of their own civilians, perhaps in part due to the policy of sending thousands of poor young men into the meatgrinder of national service
Another lie debunked,
No reports of Hamas targeting Palestinians assisting aid organizations, US humanitarian aid official says
From CNN's Michael Conte
US officials have not seen evidence of Hamas targeting Palestinian civilians working with international aid organizations in Gaza, according to Samantha Power, administrator for the United States Agency for International Development (USAID).
“That is not what our partners are reporting back to us,” Power said at a House Foreign Affairs Committee hearing. She was being asked about such allegations by Democratic Rep. Kathy Manning.
Power added that US aid partners in Gaza are also not reporting that Hamas is impeding the distribution of humanitarian assistance. She said the Israel Defense Forces has also not been reporting such obstructions by Hamas.
“I, like you, would expect it would be, given what Hamas does otherwise targeting innocent civilians, using innocent civilians as human shields, but again — trusted partners like World Food Programme and UNICEF and others have not reported that Hamas is getting in the way of humanitarian assistance," Power said.
Power previously testified that USAID has not received reports of Hamas “systematically” diverting food aid in Gaza.
"the policy of sending thousands of poor young men into the meatgrinder of national service"
This comment betrays a fundamental lack of knowledge on the topic being discussed. The IDF drafts Jewish women as well as Jewish men, and the rich as well as the poor (in fact, the haredim are among the poorest in Israeli society, and they're not conscripted). Neither is conscription into the IDF being thrown into the meatgrinder: in 2022, 3 personnel were killed in combat. In 2021, it was ...1.
https://m.jpost.com/israel-news/article-726526
Into the meatgrinder does not necessarily mean to their death. The process of training a soldier to fight, kill others and be possibly killed is mentally hard and dehumanising. This is why some of those who get invalided out after service tend to fall out of society and end up living rough, with drink or substance problems and suffer disproportionatley from suicide. They don't get the same decompression that normal retirees from service receive.
The IDF drafts Jewish women as well as Jewish men, and the rich as well as the poor
Ah, I see... so Israel's national policy is to indoctrinate the vast majority of the population into a military mindset from a young age
Yep, that makes sense now
Some interesting comments too:
I am in this video, the boy in the black shirt. It isnt that we havent yet been exposed to the biased opinions of our educators and educational material. We have been part of the corrupting system for the past 16 years of our lives and the fact that we have and still are standing up against it is what differentiates us. This is mostly due to the environment we are in and the fact that we have the opportunity to be exposed to this kind of material.
As a Palestinian it is very touching when Israelis see this conflict for what it really is, and this is when real change will begin to happen when people realize the truth and reality about Israels occupation. Of course we need changing attitudes on the Palestinian side also but that will never happen until the Palestinians have hope in order to free their minds of a hatred of Israel which is manifested through the daily oppression of the Palestinians. We need peace before it is too late.
These kids give me hope for the future. Hard not to feel this way about your country when the curtain gets pulled back and the brutality and manipulation becomes explicit. I have the same problem. Being an American and having learned to read between some lines (not all the lines for sure...I'm far from perfectly informed, or even well informed for that matter) with the help of some "subversive" authors, I have been changed permanently by it. Suffice to say, I don't sing patriotic songs anymore.
"Ah, I see… so Israel’s national policy is to indoctrinate the vast majority of the population into a military mindset from a young age. Yep, that makes sense now"
Everyone is entitled to draw their own inferences and come to their own conclusions about whether an action is morally right or wrong. But we can probably all agree that the starting position should be facts (especially when they're freely available, online, in English) rather than stereotypes, misconceptions or ignorance.
There is a lot of Dunning-Kruger Effect on display in this thread, where some of the strongest opinions are matched with the weakest knowledge of the subject matter.
Brilliant interview with Bassem Youssef on the Ways to change the world podcast
Ah, I see… so Israel’s national policy is to indoctrinate the vast majority of the population into a military mindset from a young age
We have 2-3 generations of extended family in Israel, despite national service, your perceived national policy is failing miserably.
indoctrinate the vast majority of the population into a military mindset
your perceived national policy is failing miserably.
I would call the 70-80% of the population in Israel who support their government's military action and objectives "the vast majority". It certainly puts them at odds with global public opinion and even the majority of Americans.
Israel has over a period of 75 years gone from being a fairly left-wing country to now one of the most right-wing countries in the Western world. Every new generation appears to be more right-wing than the previous. I suspect indoctrination from an early age is a significant reason for this.
Although I am obviously pleased that your extended family might be part of the 20% of Israelis who do not accept this military mindset MCTD
Israeli public opinion has to date shown itself largely impervious to US and other international pressure, and support for the Gaza war currently hovers at around 80%. Even more concerning for Washington’s hopes of containing the conflict, there is also more than 70% Israeli public support for a large-scale military operation against Hezbollah in Lebanon – something Washington has so far managed to forestall.
In Israel itself, pro-war demonstrators are far more in evidence than anti-war ones. Israeli settlers and rightwing activists have focused their protests on Unrwa over the past week, blocking the entrances to its Jerusalem office. The protesters portrayed the UN ceasefire resolution as an attack against Israel.
But, but, but .... the muppets supporting a Hezbollah offensive will be called up for action. The chaps north of the border aren't just a bunch of lads with stones and molotovs, it'll be carnage for both sides.
Israeli public opinion has to date shown itself largely impervious to US and other international pressure, and support for the Gaza war currently hovers at around 80%. Even more concerning for Washington’s hopes of containing the conflict, there is also more than 70% Israeli public support for a large-scale military operation against Hezbollah in Lebanon – something Washington has so far managed to forestall.
In Israel itself, pro-war demonstrators are far more in evidence than anti-war ones. Israeli settlers and rightwing activists have focused their protests on Unrwa over the past week, blocking the entrances to its Jerusalem office. The protesters portrayed the UN ceasefire resolution as an attack against Israel.
As to the support for the war and rise of facistic tendencies as the Israeli state has grown it has been noted that the increase of settlers and settlements has largely driven this trend, there was a really interesting and in depth article regard this point in Haaretz back before the October 7th massacre, I’ll see if I can find it in my bookmarks or online.
Hear from two American surgeons just returned from Gaza
the 70-80% of the population in Israel who support their government’s military action
In much of their propaganda and when they celebrate their terrorist attacks , Hamas and the Iranian govt are often calling on the death of Jews, not Israelis or right wing Israelis specifically, or Settlers, but Jews. It could be that Israelis support military action because of that.
The situation is intractable because despite the language of both sides being often couched in terms of territory or land, at it's heart its ethno-religious conflict, and the desired outcome for the hard-line elements of both sides is the utter oblivion of the other.
I don't mean to sound like a Hamas spokesperson on here but clause 16 of their 2017 charter reads -
"16. Hamas affirms that its conflict is with the Zionist project not with the Jews because of their religion. Hamas does not wage a struggle against the Jews because they are Jewish but wages a struggle against the Zionists who occupy Palestine. Yet, it is the Zionists who constantly identify Judaism and the Jews with their own colonial project and illegal entity."
I can't speak for what they say elsewhere.
I think October 7th pretty much shit all over any "we don't hate Jews" that chapter 16 was trying to claim.
Here’s a notable comment from senior Hamas official Fathi Hamid in 2019:
“All of you 7 million Palestinians abroad, enough of the warming up. You have Jews everywhere and we must attack every Jew on the globe by way of slaughter and killing, if God permit.”
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fathi_Hamad
"I think October 7th pretty much shit all over any “we don’t hate Jews” that chapter 16 was trying to claim."
I daresay Hamas has a strong dislike for Jews, but that's somewhat different to saying that Hamas is specifically calling for the death of the Jewish people.
Here's a link to a Times of Israel page where Hamid draws back (and Hamas distance themselves) from a particularly anti-Semitic statement he made.
TheFlyingOx :I think October 7th pretty much shit all over any “we don’t hate Jews” that chapter 16 was trying to claim.
As a counter to that I guess its legitimate to surmise that the current Israeli government along with the IDF have a very similar attitude to Palestinians
I see that Article 25 of the North Korean Constitution shall continually increase the living standards of its people.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitution_of_North_Korea
That, too, might be one of those occasions in which you judge people by their actions and not their printed words.
Back in the day when the Hamas english language website was easily accessible and for several years I would every now and then read their news and communiques.
A couple of things always struck me, one was how excellent the English translations were, presumably done by native English speakers whose knowledge of English appeared to be better than mine.
And secondly how they never ever mentioned the words Jews nor Israel. The references to the people were always zionists, or colonialists, or occupiers. Israel was always referred to as the "zionist entity".
It was clearly an obsession of theirs to never refer to Jews and Israel as the enemy. So I don't know where you get the Idea that Hamas specifically calls for the death of Jews Nick.
I would be interested in seeing any official Hamas statement which clearly calls for the death of Jews. I don't know about Iran but I would also be surprised if official Iranian government statements specifically calls for the death of Jews. The comments of individuals don't count especially as even Israeli ministers have made horrendous comments concerning wiping out and killing Palestinians, something which the International Court of Justice is currently investigating.
Having said all that, what Hamas and the Iranian government might have or not have said is totally irrelevant to point that according to opinion polls about 80% of Israelis support the current military operations in Gaza which has cost the lives of over 30 thousand Palestinians, 70% of them women and children.
Public opinion globally is appalled by the death of almost 14 thousand children and now the growing number of those facing starvation, what Hamas or Iran might have said doesn't come into it, why would it?
So why do apparently 80% of Israelis support what is going on in Gaza? It is truly depressing. For me the explanation is obvious - a lifetime of indoctrination and dehumanisation of Palestinians. It is certainly not because they are Jewish.
So why do apparently 80% of Israelis support what is going on in Gaza? It is truly depressing. For me the explanation is obvious – a lifetime of indoctrination and dehumanisation of Palestinians. It is certainly not because they are Jewish.
Christian fundamentalists in America, Jewish fundamentalists in Israel
Same result.
@pondo I’m aware of the walk-back, but those comments are pretty extreme. Well beyond an ‘I misspoke’
My point was to back up nickc’s comment that Israeli politics don’t exist in a vacuum. Extremism on one side fosters extremism on the other.
Each side has both agency and responsibility. Comments like “I suspect indoctrination from an early age is a significant reason for this” ignore that fact.
It really isn't somafunk, Joe Biden is not a fundamental Christian and yet his support is absolutely indispensable to Israel. And nearly half of Israelis are secular.
Religion has little to do with Zionism.
Here’s a link to a Times of Israel page where Hamid draws back (and Hamas distance themselves) from a particularly anti-Semitic statement he made.
In 2019 when that comment was made Hamas was not classified as a terrorist organisation by the then Tory government.
I suspect that it would have been if it was calling for the death of all Jews.
I think its partly to do with the Jews want a country of their own and are not going to compromise in any way shape or form.
We know about the holocaust, but there have been other incidents where Jews have been attacked and murdered, and in many instances in the most brutal and bestial manner. So previously being a people who were spread out amongst the world, there was more chance of them continuing to be used as scapegoats for whatever regime.
.
I can see from the Israeli perspective that they cannot share a land with a people who want them dead, and have continued to try to do that and think that again from the Israeli perspective its down to them or us. They don't want their lessons of the past repeated.
they cannot share a land with a people who want them dead
When you take land away from people their opinions don't normally count.
Perhaps the map below partially explains why most Israelis are skeptical of a one state solution in which it's suggested they should live in a binational or Palestinian state. (Obviously the caption is defective - these are not all Arab countries). This is all after the Holocaust in Europe, obviously.
I would be interested in seeing any official Hamas statement which clearly calls for the death of Jews
This took all of about 5 seconds of Googling. It's the first one I found of countless examples of the same thing
Hamas official, Hamad Al-Regeb in an April 2023 sermon: He prayed for “annihilation” and “paralysis” of the Jews whom he described as filthy animals: “[Allah] transformed them into filthy, ugly animals like apes and pigs because of the injustice and evil they had brought about.” Al-Regeb also prayed for the ability to “get to the necks of the Jews.”
Israel was always referred to as the “zionist entity”
Whenever Hamas or Iran use the word Zionist, it is (like the ultra right wing of the US using the word Globalist) interchangeable with, and meant to be heard [a dog whistle] as Jew.
It really isn’t somafunk, Joe Biden is not a fundamental Christian and yet his support is absolutely indispensable to Israel. And nearly half of Israelis are secular.
Religion has little to do with Zionism.
I was making a reference to the ease that religious fundamentalism in politics is fashioning the narrative that “others” are bad and coming to take everything, look at politics on the right in the USA, religious fundamentalists are driving the Republican Party, look at politics on the right in Israel, the rise of the militant religious zionist movement in power.
we could have a useful side thread about the use of anti-Zionist as a stand in for anti-Jewish in Soviet pro-Arabic propaganda after the USSR realised that Israel was moving towards the USA in the late 50 and 60's. which informed much of the views of nascent Arabic Nationalist movement.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_anti-Zionism
This took all of about 5 seconds of Googling. It’s the first one I found of countless examples of the same thing
But you haven't done it have you? What you appear to have done is exactly what I asked you not to do. To remind you:
I would be interested in seeing any official Hamas statement which clearly calls for the death of Jews. I don’t know about Iran but I would also be surprised if official Iranian government statements specifically calls for the death of Jews. The comments of individuals don’t count especially as even Israeli ministers have made horrendous comments concerning wiping out and killing Palestinians, something which the International Court of Justice is currently investigating.
Goodness gracious, surely it can't be a slow attempt to frame all criticism of a heavily armed colonial nation that continues to encroach on the territory of those who dwelled there before the nation was formed as anti semitic.
No no, that would never happen
we could have a useful side thread about the use of anti-Zionist as a stand in for anti-Jewish
No it wouldn't be useful at all.
https://www.instagram.com/middleeasteye/reel/C5oYu3Hpqeh/
Its a sermon, he's a religious leader, it's not "individual comment"
No it wouldn’t be useful at all.
Why not? The US support of Israel is open for discussion, why not the use of anti Jewish propaganda spread by the Soviet Union in the 60's in Arabic states once they realised that Israel was moving towards the US and not to them as they originally hoped. It forms pretty much the basis for the use of the word Zion as a proxy for Jew in much of Islamic terrorist rhetoric.
Its a sermon, he’s a religious leader, it’s not “individual comment”
Is an official statement from Hamas calling for all Jews to be killed really that hard to find?
Why not?
The link which I posted goes some way in answering that, which is why I posted it.
It's only about two or three minutes long btw.
Wonder if the Native Americans were portrayed as Christian hating savages back when they were resisting invasion and occupation...
On which note, had there been an international community and a vast global arms trade, would said *Christian hating savages* have been allowed weapons with which to defend their territory?
Help yourself Google is that way.
Thanks but I feel fairly confident that Hamas haven't issued official statements calling for Jews to be killed so I am not sure what I should be using Google for.
As I said earlier, in 2019 Hamas was not even classified as a terrorist organisation by the United Kingdom government. I think we can both agree that it would have been if it had been calling for the killing of all Jews.
Of course none of this provides an explanation as to why 80% of Israelis support their far-right government's policy in Gaza, in stark contrast to the rest of the world.
Indoctrination from an early age and deliberate relentless misinformation are the obvious culprits. I am sure that you have heard that according to the Israeli government there are no problems with aid arriving into Gaza and that it now exceeds what was arriving before the current situation.
Most Israelis undoubtedly believe that shit, partly because they want to and partly because they have been fed deliberate misinformation all of their lives.
Edit: A few weeks ago I saw Melanie Phillips who now lives in Israel full-time on the panel of BBC Question Time. The audience gasped in disbelief when Philips said that markets in Gaza were full of food and when she claimed that the aid lorries were having no difficulty getting through.
She couldn't understand why the audience didn't believe her. It made her look stupid, which she very clearly isn't, so she obviously said it because she really believed it to be true. Her problem was that she had spent too much time in Israel and listening to the right-wing governments propaganda.
On the specific issue below, it's extremely hard to disagree with ernie:
Edit: A few weeks ago I saw Melanie Phillips who now lives in Israel full-time on the panel of BBC Question Time. The audience gasped in disbelief when Philips said that markets in Gaza were full of food and when she claimed that the aid lorries were having no difficulty getting through.
She couldn’t understand why the audience didn’t believe her. It made her look stupid, which she very clearly isn’t, so she obviously said it because she really believed it to be true. Her problem was that she had spent too much time in Israel and listening to the right-wing governments propaganda.
I saw Melanie Philips on QT saying this and it was next level insane. Either she's so misinformed that she has no right to describe herself as a journalist, or the statement came from entrenched cynicism and an offensive denial of human suffering.
in stark contrast to the rest of the world
Because what happened at Hamas’ instigation in October didn’t happen to “the rest of the world”, it happened in Israel. When something like that happens in your country, your response isn’t the same as that of someone tapping away at a keyboard thousands of miles away. Rational gives way to emotion.
And on Melanie Phillips, she’s always been a hateful and twisted person. She was like that when she lived here.