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, build an airport and if Israel don’t like that………yep you’re catching on……..they can gtf with that...
Tell you what…..Israel can just gtf.
Do you remember what happened to the last airport?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yasser_Arafat_International_Airport
Do you remember what happened to the last airport?
You see what’s happened to the last everything?
I'm happy to see it was in partnership with Canada and Australia - the UK has to dispose of its delusion that it can achieve anything on major geopolitical issues alone. I'd prefer to see closer work with the EU.
The UK announcement was in coordination with Portugal, as well as Canada & Australia.
Spain, Ireland did so last year. Other EU countries have done so recently.
France announcement yesterday makes it 153 countries, I think.
More EU states expected to also formally recognise Palestine this month, at the UN.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cd9ykqw22zlo
Whilst laudable, there's only one country that can influence Netanyahu in a meaningful way.
This is still the hard truth.
Sanctions on Israel could include limiting the [meagre] imports of fruit and veg or the export of defense materiel, but something with more impact could be barring them (or Israeli companies) from government contracts, say like the one the Elbit has got to train UK troops. Or putting pressure on British banks from selling Israeli government bonds.
The issue there would be the lack of UK bidders for the same training contracts and the revenue that selling such bonds brings the treasury.
One of the conditions for the Labour government's recognition of Palestine is that Palestine should have no right to defend itself and that Israel is able to attack it with impunity.
https://twitter.com/saulstaniforth/status/1970011942460022918/
Obviously Israel has the right to "defend itself" but that's because, well, I'm not entirely sure.
A gloomy interview and article from two negotiators (one Palestinian, one American) who now regard the two state solution as a "dangerous gimmick" that wasted 30 years, mostly at the expense of Palestinians.
They refuse to suggest policy solutions - which on one hand is a little frustrating but on the other hand is admirable dedication to their point that they were completely wrong in the past.
Blimey......
I know some people believe that the only support Israel needs to worry about is from the US government, and Netanyahu certainly behaves as if that is the case, but it obviously isn't.
Plus for Microsoft as far as I'm concerned.
Also the protests in Italy and the announcements from both the Spanish PM and king give me hope the that toffee is turning in Israel.
Sanctions on Israel could include limiting the [meagre] imports of fruit and veg or the export of defense materiel, but something with more impact could be barring them (or Israeli companies) from government contracts, say like the one the Elbit has got to train UK troops. Or putting pressure on British banks from selling Israeli government bonds.
The issue there would be the lack of UK bidders for the same training contracts and the revenue that selling such bonds brings the treasur
Should....!
Something I'd not clocked, is the silence from neighbouring countries.
https://mondediplo.com/2025/09/01edito
You couldn’t make it up. One minute you “recognise a Palestinian state “, next minute you install Lord Blair of Baghdad as governor.
Well to be fair Tony Blair did bring peace to the Middle East, and it great that a senior Labour politician should see eye to eye with Donald Trump and recieve his backing, so perhaps we should be celebrating that.
You couldn’t make it up. One minute you “recognise a Palestinian state “, next minute you install Lord Blair of Baghdad as governor.
Christ on a bike. This is a terrible idea. It severs Gaza from the existing framework of the Palestinian state (which is pretty ropey but better than zero). And it has the world's second least suitable person leading it?
Did anyone see the photo of Blair and Sunak passing each other on the street outside Trump Tower the other day?
And it has the world's second least suitable person leading it?
Perhaps thats the plan. Have someone the Israelis and Palestinians can join together in hating.
Looks like a mass walkout at the UN when Netyanyahu was speaking
Yup, not many people stayed to listen to the leader of a genocidal and criminal regime speak.
Although our Labour government ensured that the UK diplomats stayed seated to listen to the man who is wanted under an international arrest warrant for war crimes and crimes against humanity
https://youtube.com/shorts/YbHtfEMhhAg?si=XtX9cCWkTheCxybk
I don’t think Trump is going to get his Nobel Peace Prize h just yet.
The disconnect between him saying he thinks there’s going to be a peace deal on Gaza, followed by the bellicose and belligerent Netanyahu ranting at the UN, is total.
Those were not the words of a man about to sign a peace deal. Those were the words of a man who’s about to kill tens of thousands more people
Surely Tony Blair, that well-known Middle East peacemaker and soon to be the installed Governor of Occupied Gaza, is a shoo-in for the Nobel Peace Prize?
Pass me a bucket I wan to throw up. The hideous ghoul Cooper daring to talk about a peace deal after she’s been instrumental in the genocide?
The far-right Israeli regime really is determined that Palestinian men, women , children, should be denied aid and starve.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/oct/01/israeli-military-vessels-pro-palestinian-flotilla-gaza
Where is the Royal Navy when shipping carrying humanitarian aid in international waters is attacked by a rogue state?
Well lets hope that this latest initiative by the US actually produces some positive moves in ending this.
Although I fully expect nethenau to launch some sort of increased bombing campaign to derail the process.
I'm not quite sure if this belongs here but I find it pretty disturbing and cynical and it would seem to be intended try to influence Britain's view of the war.
I'm not quite sure if this belongs here but I find it pretty disturbing and cynical and it would seem to be intended try to influence Britain's view of the war.
I'm not sure that associating yourself with a notorious criminal is a good PR move, but I guess racists gonna racist.
And the ironic point is many of Robinson's supporters are far right and hate Jewish people, be they israelis or no.
For these bastards its white and christian are the only people acceptable to them.
And the ironic point is many of Robinson's supporters are far right and hate Jewish people, be they israelis or no.
I think it's a win win from the Israeli perspective though. On the one hand stir up populist anti-islamic froth whilst any expression of anti-semitism can be used to justify Israel doing what it likes to protect itself and/or strongarm the British government into a pro-israeli stance regardless of what atrocities they may be committing.
Maybe Israel has invited Stephen Lennon so that he can honour a commitment which he made in 2019?
"If there was a war and it kicked off I would be there on the front line fighting for Israel" - Tommy Robinson.
Perhaps they believe it is time for a gentle reminder? After all things "kicked off" almost 2 years ago and Stephen Lennon still hasn't put his fighting skills to good use.
Yaxley-Lennon has been getting financial support from Israeli groups for a number of years to aid his anti-Islam/muslim stance in this country, byline times did an expose of this last year (?)
I think it's a win win from the Israeli perspective though.
No good can come from any association with the thug and convicted criminal. Which is precisely why Nigel Farage has had the good sense and determination to keep Stephen Lennon out of Reform UK and Lennon has been forced to join a far-right party led some weird ****stani [they come over here taking over our far-right racist parties]
And zionist organisations are fully aware of how toxic Stephen Lennon is to the zionist cause, which is also precisely why they shun him and regularly demand that he stays away from their events.
Edit : The swear-filtered word of course refers to someone who was born in one of the Indian subcontinent countries beginning with P
British zionists don't welcome Stephen Lennon :
And the ironic point is many of Robinson's supporters are far right and hate Jewish people, be they israelis or no.
I am not sure it is ironic, unfortunately for the Jewish community, the courting and support Isreal give to far right regimes and organisations around the world will inflict a heavy cost when those regimes and groups move beyond the joint aims of attacking the left.
To rehash an old joke - a spite-filled racist nutcase. And Stephen Lennon.
Ranting Israeli nutter platformed by C4 News just now, with no pushback from the useless Cathy Newman. Deplorable.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/oct/09/gaza-ceasefire-deal-first-phase-trump-peace-plan
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/oct/09/how-the-gaza-ceasefire-deal-was-done-donald-trump
I'm finding it hard to believe this will work - but my opinion counts for nothing compared to that of the leaders of Hamas and Israel so...
By contrast Amit Segal, a journalist close to Netanyahu, said: “There’s no phase two. That’s clear to everyone, right? Phase two might happen someday, but it’s unrelated to what’s just been signed.”
Yup...
don’t think Trump is going to get his Nobel Peace Prize h just yet.
Was a good bit about this on Radio 4 yesterday. Basically he’s got no chance as there is plenty of evidence he is not a peace maker
For now absolutely the aim should be to maintain a ceasefire and maintain peace. But the world has to go after Israel for the war crimes it’s committed
plenty of evidence he is not a peace maker
I mean, he could have ended it in January but chose to wait until now.
Instead his admin....
In February 2025 the State Department, declaringthat an emergency exists to bypass Congressional review, notified Congress about three potential arms sales to Israel:$2.04 billionfor 35 529 2000-pound bombs(Mk-84 or BLU-117 general purpose bodies, or a combination of both) and 4000 I-2000 Penetrator warheads;$675.7 million for nearly 5000 1000-pound bombs and guidance kits; and$295 million for Caterpillar D9 bulldozers.In March US Secretary of State Marco Rubio announcedthat he had signed a declaration to use emergency authorities to expedite the delivery of approximately $4 billion in military assistance to Israel. In the same announcement Rubio said that since Trump had taken office on 20 January 2025, the administration had approved nearly $12 billion in major Foreign Military Sales to Israel.
But the world has to go after Israel for the war crimes it’s committed
Is it going to also go after Hamas for their war crimies, of which there is more evidence ?
The ceasefire/peace deal came just in time as Unrwa reported on the 8th that there is an alarming surge in child malnutrition:
but because of the ceasefire they seem to have magically found enough supplies to feed the whole of Gaza for the next three months :
a spite-filled racist nutcase
that's the majority of the population of Gaza, isn't it? Lot's of video of young male Gazans singing songs that urge the killing of Jews in the past few days.
Is it going to also go after Hamas for their war crimies
That's the plan. You approve I assume?
that's the majority of the population of Gaza, isn't it?
Ah the "there's no innocents in Gaza, they all deserve to die" which is trotted out by the far-right as justification for genocide.
Lot's of video of young male Gazans singing songs that urge the killing of Jews in the past few days.
I haven't seen them and since Palestinians see zionists as the enemy not Jews I would be interested in examples of these videos of the past few days, if you've got any. What were they singing before btw?
I thought the deal included immunity for the Hamas leaders (that are left, if they leave Palestine and have nothing to do with any future administration) and Israeli ministers (who can carry on in government). It's a very one sided deal, but it makes prosecuting war crimes with people who made the decision to carry them out more unlikely I think.
I am fairly confident that the International Criminal Court, which neither the United States nor Israel are members of, were not a party to the negotiations.
The ICC has issued arrest warrants for those it considers to have committed war crimes. Obviously Israel has killed the Hamas members which the ICC had issued arrest warrants but Hamas are not immune to prosecution by the ICC.
All those responsible for war crimes in Palestine need to be held accountable and prosecuted by the ICC
I thought the deal included immunity for the Hamas leaders (that are left, if they leave Palestine and have nothing to do with any future administration) and Israeli ministers (who can carry on in government). It's a very one sided deal, but it makes prosecuting war crimes with people who made the decision to carry them out more unlikely I think.
1) The (published) deal text doesn't say that. https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c70155nked7o
2) The signatories to the deal (if, in fact, there is a deal...) can't bind the International Criminal Court or other countries to a promise not to investigate or prosecute war crimes by anyone. For example: the US, Hamas, Israel and Egypt can't all just agree that Ireland won't arrest suspected war criminals if they show up at Dublin airport. Ireland didn't agree to that and Ireland would be in breach of its obligations under Part 9 of the Rome Statute if it simply refused to arrest them.
3) Obviously the states-signatories to the peace deal can refuse to prosecute. Israel, Qatar and the US are not in the ICC/Rome system anyway. The real dilemma here is for Palestine, which on one hand very much wants to be in the system, while on the other hand has an obligation to investigate war crimes committed on its own territory. It will be powerless (in reality) to investigate and apprehend Israeli offenders. What's it going to do about Palestinian (Hamas) offenders...? Turn the whole issue over to the ICC becuase it's more domestically politically acceptable, like Croatia and Serbia? And how do they stop Israel interfering with extraditions...? I suspect the answer to all of this is: nothing is gonna happen. 🙁
https://www.icc-cpi.int/situations-under-investigations
Amnesty for Hamas members is absolutely part of the peace plans. As is transit to a third country (which will be outside the ICC).
EDIT: It even says this in the bullet point summary you've linked to. This deal will put any remaining key Hamas leaders that could be prosecuted for war crimes beyond the reach of any prosecution. They're as likely to end up in court as Israeli cabinet members if/once peace happens as per this plan. Ie, no chance at all. This peace deal makes it far less likely that anyone will be prosecuted for war crimes... that's my opinion... but I'd love to be persuaded otherwise.
For example: the US, Hamas, Israel and Egypt can't all just agree that Ireland won't arrest suspected war criminals if they show up at Dublin airport.
I don't think anyone key to Hamas will be turning up in Dublin anytime soon.
What's it going to do about Palestinian (Hamas) offenders...?
Any offenders will probably be in Qatar, not Palestine. Palestine is a long way from being a UN member and a signatory to Rome Statute anyway. I hope that day comes, but it really isn't something that will happen anytime soon.
What's it going to do about Palestinian (Hamas) offenders...?
Any offenders will probably be in Qatar, not Palestine. Palestine is a long way from being a UN member and a signatory to Rome Statute anyway. I hope that day comes, but it really isn't something that will happen anytime soon.
1) There were thousands of people involved in the cross-boundary attacks on Israeli settlements, installations, locations, people. They're not all getting flown out to Qatar and subsidised for the rest of their lives. Most of them will remain with their families in Palestine. If you look at the experience of suspected war criminals out of SE Europe and Africa, you'll notice a lot of them *are* picked up when transiting third countries.
2) Palestine has been a party to the Rome Statute for over a decade. It is critical for Palestine to maintain that status because it what gives the ICC jurisdiction to investigate alleged Israeli war crimes in locations that Palestine considers part of its sovereign territory.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/States_parties_to_the_Rome_Statute
3) The deal can't offer immunity from prosecution by non-signatory states and the ICC. It's not even clear to me if Palestine - as opposed to Hamas - will be invited to sign the deal.
In practice, I agree with you that the prospect of justice through national courts of the signatories or the ICC looks pretty gloomy, at least for senior figures.
Palestine has been a party to the Rome Statute for over a decade
👍
You made me look it up! Thanks for the education. That does complicate things, for sure.
Anyone in a key position will be going to Qatar though. I don't see any value in the ICC prosecuting anyone lower level that stays in Gaza, or moves to the West Bank, for anything that's happened in the last few years. What they do in future though...
As Ernie didn't pick up on this part of Gravedigger's post, I'll go.
but because of the ceasefire they seem to have magically found enough supplies to feed the whole of Gaza for the next three months
The issue hasn't been availability, but the fact the Israeli miliary wouldn't allow any of it into the territory. They instead started that Gazan Humanitarian Foundation bullshit, and shot people trying to access it.
Palestine is a long way from being a UN member
I guess it depends what you call a long way, the Palestinian flag is flown outside the United Nations building and inside Palestine is allowed to participate in UN debates. The only thing stopping Palestine being a full member is the United States (the UK now supports UN full membership for Palestine) so if the US lifted its veto Palestine would immediately become a full member.
And not only does Palestine contribute to debates at the United Nations but here is an example of just how well they do it.
Although to be fair when yours is a just cause the task becomes relatively easy. Israel would have considerable more problem offering such a clear and compelling case as Palestine does
Last night on the news I saw a lady, probably in her 60's walking alone past the totally devastated buildings and rubble, crying and desolate. She said she was returning to her home which no longer existed, to a family that never existed anymore..... all dead.
I was reminded of the words of Rabbie Burns....
Man's inhumanity to man
Makes countless thousands mourn
Last night on the news I saw......
Well done for being able to watch stuff like that, I can't. What I think most of are the children, those who have been unlucky to survive and have lost everything including their parents and siblings, and sometimes even their limbs, and have with certainty witnessed things which no human being should see.
Last night on the news I saw......
Well done for being able to watch stuff like that, I can't. What I think most of are the children, those who have been unlucky to survive and have lost everything including their parents and siblings, and sometimes even their limbs, and have with certainty witnessed things which no human being should see.
Yes Ernie. I agree with you 100%. I make no apology for saying I cried last night. It's so horrendous that I can't imagine how people carry on.
The deal can't offer immunity from prosecution by non-signatory states and the ICC.
But presumably the deal will offer immunity to people like Daniel Raab from Chicago who quite openly admits to repeatedly committing war crimes in Gaza for which there is ample video evidence because IDF murders enjoy posting their crimes on the internet.
Bumping this for the peeps who want to discuss the future of Gaza (and keep the Trump thread for topics directly related to Trump)...
That Guardian article is horrific but sadly simply confirms the obvious…. that the IDF troops are behaving like psychopaths, utterly devoid of any empathy, compassion or the slightest shred of humanity.
The casual, dismissive nature with which they describe what amounts to mass murder - as if it’s their right - is frankly terrifying
PoliticsJoe posted an interview with an Irish man that had been part of a flotilla to deliver medical supplies to Gaza. His treatment by the Israeli military at all levels was disgusting.
The casual, dismissive nature with which they describe what amounts to mass murder - as if it’s their right - is frankly terrifying
Also terrifying - Keir Starmer bouncing down the steps as his plane lands on Egypt, on his way to ink the deal on Trump’s theft of Gaza, validating the mass murder you mention.
Why does Keir have anything to do with it? Why does Trump (apart from the obvious of being israels lap dog for some bizzare reason)?
"We've taken 90% of the land you had remaining, bombed the crap out of the rest of it and weeve reached a point where our positions are untenable as real people around the world can see we are all murdering scumbags. So we are going to stop at this point (for now) and claim to be the heroes who ended the conflict, that we started and perpetuated.
You can all live on that remaining 100 square km, and say Thank you.
When the world has moved on we will come back and finish you all off, and use that land for parking or a golf course.
Hamas now have the breathing room to regroup and restrengthen. We can all look forward to more terror attacks around the world. and well deserved they will be.
Obviously they could be avoided by returning the land to the Palestinians.
Why does Keir have anything to do with it? Why does Trump (apart from the obvious of being israels lap dog for some bizzare reason)?
As for Keir’s involvement?, practically zero.
And as for trump?
https://www.caitlinjohnst.one/p/trump-keeps-admitting-that-he-is
What a difference a few years make.
To be fair in January 2020 Sir Keir Starmer was still a committed Leftie because the Labour leadership election, which he was so desperate to win, hadn't yet taken place.
So yeah it was all about "international law and human rights" back then, all that stuff wasn't thrown out of the window until after he had managed to successfully con Labour Party members.
Obviously in reality no politically commited person changes their political views so dramatically in such a short space of time.
Caitlin Johnstone is not a source you want on your reading list.
Restricting aid to civilians is a war crime. It is not a legitimate war tactic and yet because this war crime is being committed by the zionist state it is reported as if it is.
The civilian men, women, and children, in Gaza who are being denied food, medicine, etc, are not responsible for what Hamas does or doesn't do, punishing them and not calling out Israel for doing so reinforces the Israeli narrative that there are no innocents in Gaza.
If it is legitimate to deny children food and medicine as a way of punishing Hamas then it is obviously legitimate to kill these children also as a way of punishing Hamas.
At what point will the western media apply the same standards to Israel as it does to everyone else?
Caitlin Johnstone is not a source you want on your reading list.
I'm well aware of her conspiracy nut job theories and what an unapologetic grifter that she is (and should be 99%ignored) , the article is the only one I found that referenced trumps words so thought it worthy enough
Little Tommy Robinson is presently having a nice jolly In Israel as an official guest of the government…
https://www.channel4.com/news/israel-government-hosts-far-right-activist-tommy-robinson
Perfect bedfellow for the current Israeli government, couldn’t slip a rizla between their cheeks
Caitlin Johnstone is not a source you want on your reading list.
People keep making remarks like that, but which bit of this article do you actually disagree with?
https://www.caitlinjohnst.one/p/israel-flipped-out-and-killed-45
People keep making remarks like that, but which bit of this article do you actually disagree with?
I haven't read it and I'm not going to. Once someones gone on the grifter/disinfo/russia troll/fantasist/whatever list then thats probably it. I *might* give somehing a look becase the disinfo itself is interesting, eg they are all spouting the same weird thing all of a sudden. but otherwise no.
It's pretty difficult to stay well informed in the modern age of information overload, so once a source has been proven to be deliberately misleading they get culled.
And no, just because they posted something that was correct, it doesnt suddently make them credible any more than the Daily Express becoming credible for reporting the lottery numbers correctly.
An also no, its not just people that I generally disagree with, plenty of Ukraine boosters have gone in the bin too for example
.....
Struggling to understand why my response to dakuan was deleted?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kill_file
In October 2024 a Lebanese writer named Lina Mounzer wrote, “ask any Arab what the most painful realization of the last year has been and it is this: that we have discovered the extent of our dehumanization to such a degree that it’s impossible to function in the world in the same way.”
I’ve thought about that line a lot over the last year.
I thought about it as Israel hammered Lebanon with at least 20 airstrikes during a supposed “ceasefire”.
I thought about it during the Gaza ceasefire negotiations when the western political/media class kept calling the Israelis held by Hamas “hostages” while calling the innocent Palestinians held captive by Israel “prisoners”.
I think about it as the IDF continues to murder Palestinian civilians every day during the Gaza “ceasefire” when they are deemed to be traveling into forbidden areas, because Palestinians are so dehumanized that Israel sees bullets as a perfectly legitimate means of directing civilian foot traffic.
I think about it as these daily ceasefire violations and acts of military slaughter barely make a blip in the western news media, while any time anything happens that makes western Jews feel anxious or upset it dominates headlines for days.
I thought about it while the western political/media class solemnly commemorated the second anniversary of the October 7 attack, even as the daily death toll from the Gaza holocaust ticked along with its victims unnamed and unacknowledged by those same institutions.
I thought about it when all of western politics and media stopped dead in its tracks and stood transfixed for days on the assassination of Charlie Kirk while ignoring the genocide he had spent the last two years of his life actively manufacturing consent for.
Day after day after day we see glaring, inexcusable discrepancies between the amount of attention that is given to the violent death of an Arab and the attention that is given to the violent death of an Israeli, a western Jew, or any westerner.
These last two years have been a time of unprecedented unmasking in all sorts of ways, but I think that’s the one that’s going to stick with me the most. The way western civilization came right out into the cold harsh light to admit, day after day after day, that they don’t truly view Arabs as human beings.
Ours is a profoundly sick society.
One of the main arguments you’ll hear from rightists about why the west needs to support Israel is that Israel is helping to defend the west from the savage Muslim hoards — a sentiment that Israeli pundits and politicians have been all too happy to feed into of late. It’s revealing because it’s just coming right out and saying that slaughtering Muslims is a virtue in and of itself, so anyone who kills Muslims is an ally of the west.
But any time I come across this argument all I can think is, why would anyone want to defend the west if this is what the west has become?
Even if we pretend these delusions that Arabs and Islam pose some kind of threat to western civilization are valid, why would it even matter? This civilization does not deserve to be saved. Not if we’re going to be living like this.
If we’ve become so detached from our own humanity that we can’t even see innocent children as fully human just because they live somewhere else and have a different religion, then we are the monsters. We are the villains. We are everything the craziest Zionist pretends the Arabs are.
These last two years have shown us that western civilization doesn’t need protection, it needs redemption. It needs to save its soul.
Which bit do you disagree with ?
I wasnt offended and didnt report or anything. I think I knew what you meant (adding me to a list of people who arent reliable sources) but calling it a 'kill list' might have been too strong in terms of language
*edit - seen the wiki link, yeah that's what I thought you meant!
Struggling to understand why my response to dakuan was deleted?
I didn't report you either. But Googling brings up stuff on "not being able to attach files" to the forum. Maybe your post flagged an automated process that resulted in removal?
FWIW, like Dakuan I've seen some wildly biased stuff from Caitlyn, although that was maybe 2 years back. She may have improved but I still have her as an untrustworthy source, somewhere in the region of Carlson. She may be "right" on this case, but that doesn't make her reliable overall and id "personally" be wary of sharing the content because it aligned with my perceptions on one topic.
But Googling brings up stuff on "not being able to attach files" to the forum. Maybe your post flagged an automated process that resulted in removal?
There was no attached file, but when we have a swear filter that redacts country names, who knows what logic could have been at work?
Which bit do you disagree with ?
None of it apart from the claim that the dehumanisation of Palestinians is something uniquely Western. Both Arab and Muslim leaders globally are absolutely complicit and vital to the process.
Sure often fine words, but never ever any meaningful action. The West, ie the United States, needs the full support of Arab and Muslim nations for their colonial project in the Middle East, and the dehumanisation of indigenous peoples is a vital characteristic of colonialism, all Arab political leaders comply, the only Muslim country whose government doesn't is Iran.
And it is this this complicity that makes colonialism successful. It is true today as it was several thousands of years ago.