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Signs outside shops in Crete which has a lot of Israeli tourists
https://twitter.com/koinian/status/1950184869494948180
Starmer might recognise a Palestinian state in September if the Israelis don't stop being beastly. It would be hilarious if it wasn't so serious.
What do you want him to do that will have an effect?
I'm not a supporter of Starmer, but he's just upended a decades-old UK policy, no doubt having discussed it in Scotland first, but he's done it, which is a start and more than our own Conservative party and others.
You actually believe that - the international bit?
Why not?
The ICC Assembly of States Parties still has to sanction Hungary following its failure to execute the ICC warrant in April; Hungary announced its withdrawal from the ICC after the visit, which is too late.
If the ICC and the EU actually act on Hungary then it might encourage others.
which is a start and more than our own Conservative party and others.
The Tories are out of the blocks already, somewhat unsurprisingly, with Priti Patel condemning the move already
What do you want him to do that will have an effect?
For a start:
Recognise Palestine unconditionally - not just if Israel doesn't make some cosmetic adjustment to their behaviour.
End military support and co-operation.
Embargo Israeli goods.
Sanction ministers and investigate IDF members in the UK.
The Tories are out of the blocks already, somewhat unsurprisingly, with Priti Patel condemning the move already
Hard to see what political advantage is to be gained from supporting genocide precisely at the moment when even the BibiC are showing famine victims on the news. Another Tory own goal, then.
What do you want him to do that will have an effect?
For a start:
Recognise Palestine unconditionally - not just if Israel doesn't make some cosmetic adjustment to their behaviour.
End military support and co-operation.
Embargo Israeli goods.
Sanction ministers and investigate IDF members in the UK.
Most of which he can't do because the world is too inter-connected.
I've made the point about F35 fighters before, several countries including the UK and Israel use them. We can't just stop that trade or we couldn't equip the RAF
Our drone forces are massively involved with Israel's companies too. It'd be good to buy from Ukraine and use their huge expertise, but you can't do it easily ATM
Tim Marshall (author of Prisoners of Geography) was on LBC on Monday night from 6-7pm discussing this.
Worth listening to on the catch-up service. Adds useful context to the situation because news sources are inherently biased towards one side or another.
Most of which he can't do because the world is too inter-connected.
There is absolutely nothing stopping him, even if what you say is true, and the actions described by drj bring on punishment from the US and they stop supplying f35 parts, then there is a clear moral choice, do we continue our support of genocide, of the deliberate starving of children, to the blockade of desperately needed medical supplies, to using aid to tempt starving families into killing fields, or do we look elsewhere for arms supplies and accept that sometimes supporting humanity has a relatively trivial cost.
Hard to see what political advantage is to be gained from supporting genocide precisely at the moment when even the BibiC are showing famine victims on the news. Another Tory own goal, then.
It’s muscle memory for them. They can’t help themselves
@Flaperon - he’s been on Five Live a lot with Matt Chorley, commenting on the situation. Always worth listening to as he happily skewers those less well informed or just pushing their own agendas
What do you want him to do that will have an effect?
Well since Sir Keir Starmer promised us, quote, "New Labour on steroids" I would expect him to make the case for military intervention against a brutal murderous regime.
Although I would settle for full and comprehensive sanctions against Israel and a determination to help bring war criminals, both politicians and the military,. to justice.
Adds useful context to the situation because news sources are inherently biased towards one side or another.
Of course they are inherently biased, you either support a genocide or you oppose it.
How many people do you know that take a neutral position on the Holocaust or any other genocide?
Most of which he can't doesn’t want to do because the world is too inter-connected he is, as he’s told us many times, a Zionist
FTFY
And I see that MAGA pin-up girl and Trump cheerleader, Marjorie Taylor Greene, has decided to call a spade a spade
According to my profound legal understanding of the issue ( I listened to a podcast) the US are reluctant to call something a genocide as they are then legally obligated to do something about it. This was inconvenient in the case of Rwanda - where it took about half a million murders to convince them to act. I can’t imagine them accepting the existence of a genocide in Palestine anytime soon.
Of course they are inherently biased, you either support a genocide or you oppose it.
That’s quite a binary viewpoint Ernie. I’m a centrist. I can see the arguments for and against a genocide.
Most of which he can't do because the world is too inter-connected.
There is absolutely nothing stopping him, even if what you say is true, and the actions described by drj bring on punishment from the US and they stop supplying f35 parts, then there is a clear moral choice, do we continue our support of genocide, of the deliberate starving of children, to the blockade of desperately needed medical supplies, to using aid to tempt starving families into killing fields, or do we look elsewhere for arms supplies and accept that sometimes supporting humanity has a relatively trivial cost.
It is true and his clear moral choice is primarily to the people of the UK.
That isn't intended to devalue your statement of morality, but it's a fact.
As mentioned^^ if it's designated a genocide then the government has to act. The outcome of the South African action to determine this in Court won't happen for a year or two
Well since Sir Keir Starmer promised us, quote, "New Labour on steroids" I would expect him to make the case for military intervention against a brutal murderous regime.
Why would you expect that? Tony Blair joined the LFI on first being elected to Parliament in 1983, took an all-expenses paid trip to Israel in 1994, etc, etc.
As mentioned^^ if it's designated a genocide then the government has to act. The outcome of the South African action to determine this in Court won't happen for a year or two
Wait two years for a court to tell us the blatant genocide we can all see should actually be called genocide. That is just an excuse for inaction, the Palestinians are being slaughtered and starved out of existence now, we can all see it, it is nothing but political cowardice and a moral failure of our leaders to call it exactly what it is.
moral failure of our leaders to call it exactly what it is.
Yes but apparently Starmer’s first moral duty must be to safeguarding the mortgage payments of Elbit employees or whatever, and not to preventing famine.
Edit. Just watching the lunchtime news. Gaza below Ozzy Osbourne. Your BibiC at work.
Well since Sir Keir Starmer promised us, quote, "New Labour on steroids" I would expect him to make the case for military intervention against a brutal murderous regime.
Problem is unlike New Labours targets this one does actually have WMD.
That’s quite a binary viewpoint Ernie. I’m a centrist. I can see the arguments for and against a genocide.
This genuinely made me laugh out loud!!!
Of all of the images, reports, comment pieces, shouty arguments and horrifying scenes, there is one thing that is living rent free in my brain and I just can't / won't forget it. An interview with a UK medic, a guy who has travelled to Gaza repeatedly over the past 15 years or so. He said that medics were taking baby formula with them in their luggage and IDF were confiscating it at border control.
I can't even begin to imagine what justification Israel would have for that or what spin they would try to place on it. The only possible motive is to contribute to planned malnourishment of babies. Nothing else, it is simply disgusting.
The similarity between Israeli approach to Gaza and Nazi approach to Jewish ghettos is chilling.
So starmer has warned Israel that unless it tones down its genocidal acts against the Palestinians he will recognise the state of Palestine?,
The whole conditionality of Starmer’s position is repulsive. Labour still even now siding with the bully/abuser, not the victim/abused. A truly twisted “we’ll even recognise your victim’s basic human rights if you don’t tone it down a bit” angle. WTAF?
So starmer has warned Israel that unless it tones down its genocidal acts against the Palestinians he will recognise the state of Palestine?,
The whole conditionality of Starmer’s position is repulsive.
I can't get my head around it.
Surely the question of recognising a Palestinian state is nothing to do with the current Gaza situation, it's to do with who legally owns the land. At the end of the day, you either think they have a legal right to a state or they don't (but yes I realise there's a bit more to it than that).
So what on earth does he mean to say by making it conditional?
If he thinks the land rightfully belongs to Israel, he's saying "stop killing Palestinians or else we'll give them some of your land".
If he thinks the land rightfully belongs to Palestine, he's saying "we'll let you go on keeping their land if you stop killing Palestinians".
If neither of those, then... I don't even know.
Whichever way you look at it, he's essentially using Palestinian lives as direct payment for the land.
Edit: After writing that, I realise that because of this:
Whichever way you look at it, he's essentially using Palestinian lives as direct payment for the land.
It doesn't really give Hamas incentive to stop fighting, does it? Quite the opposite, they'll now want to prolong it as much as possible and to hell with civilian lives. I despair
This is from Robert Reich, he shares a long form paper originally published in Haaretz on 27th July by Orit Kamir, It’s a 5 minute read but very much worth taking time to read.
Silence in the face of Gaza’s starvation is an absolute betrayal of holocaust victims
Friends,
The world’s leading hunger monitor, Integrated Food Security Phase Classification, said Gaza is in a famine that has “worsened dramatically” in the last few months. The number of Palestinians killed has officially surpassed 60,000. A new Gallup poll shows six in 10 Americans disapprove of Israel’s military actions in Gaza.
Occasionally I come across an article in the foreign press that’s strikes me as so important that I want to share it with you. The following was originally published on July 27 in Haaretz, the longest-running newspaper currently in print in Israel. It was published in Hebrew.
Orit Kamir is an Israeli professor of law who drafted Israel's law against sexual harassment and its law prohibiting bullying in the workplace (which was adopted by Israel’s labor courts). She is the author of “Betraying Dignity: The Toxic Seduction of Social Media, Shaming and Radicalization,” published in 2020. I am grateful for her permission to republish this.
I can't get my head around it.
Surely the question of recognising a Palestinian state is nothing to do with the current Gaza situation, it's to do with who legally owns the land. At the end of the day, you either think they have a legal right to a state or they don't (but yes I realise there's a bit more to it than that).
So what on earth does he mean to say by making it conditional?
Precisely this. It's absurd.
But here's the thing. 2020s UK politicians (probably rightly) look down on the population as (largely) thick.
The notion that Palestinians might have a justifiable claim to nationhood in about 9 weeks if their oppressors continue to conduct genocide... is just barmy. They either do, or they ****ing don't.
But Starmer's advisors are likely telling him it will play well with whoever he feels the need to appease at this moment.
This is a good watch & listen, what he talks about should shame everyone involved in prolonging this genocide
Morgan McMonagle is an Irish trauma and vascular surgeon who has been to the heart of some of the world’s most harrowing conflicts. Twice, he has traveled to Gaza, working in hospitals under constant bombardment since the conflict began.
What he witnessed goes beyond medicine — it raises questions about humanity, the moral cost of war, and the toll it takes not just on the bereaved and wounded, but on those trying to save them as well.
He said that medics were taking baby formula with them in their luggage and IDF were confiscating it at border control.
I can't even begin to imagine what justification Israel would have for that or what spin they would try to place on it.
It has been widely reported that the IDF are restricting baby formula in Gaza. What spin do they put on it? Well they won't bother, they will just deny it, it's what they always do.
Benjamin Netanyahu is currently denying that there is any starvation in Gaza according to him it's all Hamas lies, the multitude of reports from a multitude of sources and all the photographic evidence doesn't count because he says there is no starvation and to contradict him is anti-semitism.
The question is how do they justify it to themselves, why might denying baby formula to starving babies be a good or useful thing?
Well a Palestinian baby will grow up to become a Palestinian man or woman who will probably hate Israel, and even if he or she doesn't they will be occupying land that Israel wants. It is easier to kill a baby now through malnutrition than to wait until it becomes an adult. That's how genocide works.
Obviously it's not a great look and even the Nazis pretended that they had no intention of killing Jews, apparently they wanted to resettle them in the East, so they said, and "work makes free" sounds like a great slogan, so it isn't easy to find people who are willing to publicly declare their support for killing babies and children.
But this guy gets what genocide is all about.......no pussyfooting..... babies and children are the enemy when it comes to genocide.
We really have reached a tipping point when even the Board of Deputies joins in with the criticism of Israel.
And it was only a month ago but the Board of Deputies "took disciplinary action against 36 elected representatives who signed an open letter that was strongly critical of Israel’s actions in Gaza. Five of the 36 were suspended for two years".
Although the Board of Deputies's sudden change in stance should hardly come as a surprise, the genocidal regime and its military wing the IDF are doing incalculable and lasting damage to Israel . Unlike Israelis the Board can see that in real time.
And awkwardly calling the Board of Deputies of British Jews anti-semitic and Hamas supporters is probably a step too far for Benjamin Netanyahu, although I am not entirely certain.
The board of deputies are merely attempting to cover their arse, they are just as culpable in support for the genocide as the likud party
The board of deputies are merely attempting to cover their arse, they are just as culpable in support for the genocide as the likud party
At least they're concerned enough to want to cover their arse.
Meanwhile, the government (which represents every man jack of us) has to ask a disgusting old crook if it is OK to recognise a Palestinian state in 9 weeks time if that state's oppressor commits even more war crimes against it.
For ****ing ****'s sake.
As they have become more extreme in their response to whatever fears they fear they face, they have made those fears more likely to be exacted.
Israel is stuck in a doom spiral, and 'twas ever thus.
One thing is for sure, they'll bring us all down with them. It was nice knowing you all.
Meanwhile, the government (which represents every man jack of us) has to ask a disgusting old crook if it is OK to recognise a Palestinian state in 9 weeks time if that state's oppressor commits even more war crimes against it.
Is there any evidence we "asked permission"? Trump gave a view in a press conference but I've not seen or heard any indication we asked him first.
Much as I despise (both) our governments failure and cowardice on this, seems to be a lot of people putting out a version that stokes that even more.
Is there any evidence we "asked permission"? Trump gave a view in a press conference but I've not seen or heard any indication we asked him first.
Much as I despise (both) our governments failure and cowardice on this, seems to be a lot of people putting out a version that stokes that even more.
I haven't seen any evidence of asking permission, but no doubt the issue was discussed.
The point is this; it makes stuff all practical difference to the population of Gaza whether you go with President Macron's version of recognition or PM Starmer's as long as the US continues to support Israel
The US has the right of veto at the UN Security Council and they have the ability to continue to supply Israel with whatever it needs without help from anyone else. Recognition in any form is a gesture until the US is onside and if political pressure from other G7/UNSC permanent members brings that about then all to the good.
Macron has changed his position, as has Starmer, and President Trump has acknowledged starvation. It's politics; slow but positive because President Trump doesn't respond to being pushed
Is there any evidence we "asked permission"? Trump gave a view in a press conference but I've not seen or heard any indication we asked him first
Knowing what sort of relationship Starmer has with Trump, and how he deals with the thorny issue of Trump, it is inconceivable imo that Starmer would have taken a major foreign policy decision, which had the certainty of riling an alleged ally, without first seeking the some sort of approval from Trump.
Even though the domestic pressure on Starmer was huge with literally hundreds of MPs urging him to recognise Palestine.
We know that Trump is both a pathological liar and that he changes his mind completely from one day to the next so what he says at press conferences should viewed with that in mind.
With regards to the significance of the development I reckon it is very big. To an extent France let the genie out of the bottle and broke rank with the United States which must be hugely worrying for the Israelis, it is precisely that solid unity of Western powers in relation to Israel which has benefited Benjamin Netanyahu so much.
It also adds pressure on Trump who is himself under growing domestic pressure from his own supporters to take a more critical line towards Israel. Unlike his predecessor Trump has no ideological commitment to Israel something which Netanyahu will be in acutely aware of.
This won't be informative to those keeping a close eye on events. But maybe so to anyone looking for a very quick piece on some elements surrounding the moves to recognising Palestine and the lack of vision from the current US admin, and some differences to the previous admin such as no longer pressuring Israel to allow better aid access. And Trumps alignment to Netenyahu's vision.
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cly6rl6158no
Yeah according to Ruth Wasserman Lande the starvation in Gaza, if there is any, is all the fault of Hamas because they have more tunnels than the London Underground.
Presumably it means that according to Ruth Wasserman Lande after nearly 2 years of fighting Hamas are still in control of Gaza, not the IDF
It's worth noting that despite her obviously extreme views Ruth Wasserman Lande is the member of the a political party which is considered to be "centrist" in relation to Israeli politics, which really speaks volumes about Israeli politics.
Also worth noting is that when she was a child her family moved from Israel to South Africa at a time when the apartheid regime was fully in control which speaks volumes about her upbringing.
Jews were classified as "white" under apartheid South Africa's extreme racist laws, and Ruth Wasserman Lande is clearly ethnic north European and not a semite so her family will have thrived. She left South Africa and returned to Israel shortly after the collapse of apartheid.
It should be pointed out though that South African Jews were at the very top of the ANC during struggle against apartheid taking very senior positions at the very top and as a consequence faced arrest, imprisonment, and assassinations. Jews actually played a highly heroic role in defeating white supremacy in SA.
I don’t wish to be flippant, but it’s real life Squid Games. And it’s not because of “failure”, this evil and inhumane by design.
So I take it from peoples use of the word zionist that everyone would be happy if there were no Jewish state and jews around the world were just subject to persecution and attempted (actual) genocides like they have repeatedly been in the past, culminating with the holocaust?
You know, like the Druze in Syria that everyone seems happy to ignore.
Unless there's pictures of children with cystic fibrosis then no one seems particularly worried. Pretty telling that when the NYT issued a correction over that photo they then had their building attacked by delusional Palastine reporters. Since when did a news organisation telling the truth become an issue? I notice that the BBC haven't issued a correction, or BBC Verify which seems to not understand its remit.
The chances of a two state solution now are close to zero unless these posturing western nations offer to guarantee Israels borders going forward - what other country has to have and regularly use a sophisticated missile defense system just so they can pretend to be at peace with their neighbours?
If there was some agreement that after a two state solution came in then if a rocket was fired from anywhere in Palastine into Egypt then Israel was free to obliterate that area in retalitory fire without consequence, or preferably one of the posturing western nations would do it, then I could see that maybe working. Perhaps another nation doing it would be better as Israel are clearly shit at bombing people when you look at how many Gazans they have managed to kill with the huge amount of bomb dropped. Worst army in the world, they must be.
Otherwise Israel is just going to remember what happened when they forcibly removed its civilians from Gaza so it could be independant, it wasn't long before rockets started coming at them and then the blockades started.
what other country has to have and regularly use a sophisticated missile defense system just so they can pretend to be at peace with their neighbours?
When has Israel ever pretended to be at peace with it's neighbours? Not as long as I've been alive.
At some point you have to ask why those countries hate Israel so much, it's not just an ethnicity thing. Having your rock/spray paint wielding children shot by army snipers on a regular basis is not "peace"
So I take it from peoples use of the word zionist that everyone would be happy if there were no Jewish state and jews around the world were just subject to persecution and attempted (actual) genocides like they have repeatedly been in the past, culminating with the holocaust?
Hey look……..it’s back ☝️🙄
Gravedigger by name eh?,
So I take it from peoples use of the word zionist that everyone would be happy if there were no Jewish state and jews around the world were just subject to persecution and attempted (actual) genocides like they have repeatedly been in the past, culminating with the holocaust?
You're wasting your breath mate.
Everyone can point to the issues - and there are many, many issues - but none of them are offering a solution. I've never once seen anyone come up with a sensible "out" for Israel and Palestine. It's all "they took over their land" and "they should give it back" but nothing about where the 10 million Israelis should go once the land is "given back".
I've never once seen anyone come up with a sensible "out" for Israel and Palestine.
What a rather strange statement but entirely expected from you, so by your reckoning we, as mtb’rs (ex mtb’rs in my case) should come up with a viable solution to a situation in the Middle East that has been festering for 100 years (78 years), hang on……I have the foreign office desk on hold…..I’ll tell them I will call back with my solution
Israel can retreat back to 1947 borders and reign it’s ****ing neck in, start afresh without genocidal leaders/political party’s on both sides.
****ing joke
Everyone can point to the issues - and there are many, many issues - but none of them are offering a solution.
Everyone complains about the weather but nobody does anything about it.
But here’s a first step - don’t kill children. Take it from there.
So I take it from peoples use of the word zionist that everyone would be happy if there were no Jewish state and jews around the world were just subject to persecution and attempted (actual) genocides like they have repeatedly been in the past, culminating with the holocaust?
You're wasting your breath mate.
Well obviously gravedigger is wasting their breath coming out with bollocks claiming that Israel is necessary for Jews fleeing "persecution".
The idea that American Jews, for example, need to be able to go to Israel because they are being persecuted in the United States is beyond ridiculous.
When I read gravedigger's post I decided that I couldn't be arsed to respond because it was so absurd that it didn't warrant it.
Btw FlyingOx I am genuinely glad to see that you are apparently still following this thread.
Israel can retreat back to 1947 borders and reign it’s ****ing neck in, start afresh without genocidal leaders/political party’s on both sides.
If only it were that simple
The UN's 1947 plan awarded more than 1/2 the country to 1/3 of its population and the whole of the freshwater Sea of Galilee. The 1947 plan has been a source of friction ever since. There's a border regression timeline here https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-54116567
Everyone can point to the issues - and there are many, many issues - but none of them are offering a solution.
Wise words
If only it were that simple
The UN's 1947 plan awarded more than 1/2 the country to 1/3 of its population and the whole of the freshwater Sea of Galilee. The 1947 plan has been a source of friction ever since. There's a border regression timeline here
Don’t worry, I know all of the history and creation of the state of Israel, I’ve posted one of my fav recent books on the subject many times before,
but Joe Sacco is one of the most approachable for many
Bassem Youssef is good at getting the point across
https://twitter.com/HussainShafiei/status/1951289954761416833
Wise words
Dishonest words might be a better description. Just because the two repeatedly suggested solutions, the two-state solution and the single secular state solution, are firmly rejected by zionists it doesn't mean that "no one is offering a solution".
As for the question concerning where the 10 million Israelis should go once the land is given back why is it even being asked? No one brought up the question of where should millions of white people go during the campaign to overthrow apartheid in South Africa.
Saying "OK we stole your land and we are actively stealing more because we have nowhere else to go" and some weird bollocks about "we are being persecuted all over the world" are piss-poor arguments.
If there is a need for a Jewish state for Jews, half of whom don't even follow Judaism, how about giving them one of the 50 states in the United States of America? I am sure that Americans wouldn't mind at all and it would be a lot fairer than taking land from the Palestinians 💡
Dishonest words might be a better description. Just because the two repeatedly suggested solutions, the two-state solution and the single secular state solution, are firmly rejected by zionists it doesn't mean that "no one is offering a solution".
It isn't only "rejected by zionists", but also by Hamas, which isn't the government of Palestine, but it shows the difficulty of a problem that wasn't helped by the events of Oct 7th
...during the campaign to overthrow apartheid in South Africa.
Your example of SA is interesting because there are many parallels, including the spread into Namibia and Angola. The timeline of SA apartheid policy started in 1948 and was all over by the 1990s, while the search for peace and a solution in Palestine still rumbles disastrously on.
If there is a need for a Jewish state for Jews, half of whom don't even follow Judaism, how about giving them one of the 50 states in the United States of America? I am sure that Americans wouldn't mind at all and it would be a lot fairer than taking land from the Palestinians 💡
A solution only works if it's accepted by everyone. Your suggestion of moving the State of Israel to the US isn't acceptable to many because it's perceived as ethnic cleansing, a geographical form of genocide.
Israel is accused of genocide, which is equally unacceptable, but let's find a solution to one international crime rather than commit a second
It isn't only "rejected by zionists", but also by Hamas
Why are you referencing Hamas as if it represents the entirety of the Palestinian people?
The two sides in this situation are not Israel and Hamas anymore than they are Palestine and Likud.
Or maybe Palestine and the Religious Zionist Party of the neo-nazi finance minister?
Your suggestion of moving the State of Israel to the US isn't acceptable to many because it's perceived as ethnic cleansing, a geographical form of genocide.
Well isn't that exactly what has happened in Palestine?
The difference of course is that the Palestinians are an indigenous people whose rights are of no consequence to colonial settlers.
It isn't only "rejected by zionists", but also by Hamas
Why are you referencing Hamas as if it represents the entirety of the Palestinian people?
I didn't. I specifically said that Hamas doesn't govern Palestine, so not representing the Palestinian people is implicit, except in your downwardly spiralling argument.
The two sides in this situation are not Israel and Hamas anymore than they are Palestine and Likud.Or maybe Palestine and the Religious Zionist Party of the neo-nazi finance minister?*
So if Likud are voted out of contention at the next election and the governing coalition (which includes RZP) falls apart this conflict will end?
You don't believe that any more than I do.
Your suggestion of moving the State of Israel to the US isn't acceptable to many because it's perceived as ethnic cleansing, a geographical form of genocide.
Well isn't that exactly what has happened in Palestine?
The difference of course is that the Palestinians are an indigenous people whose rights are of no consequence to colonial settlers.
You could say that about dozens of countries. It's part of world history, which doesn't make any of it "right". Poland disappeared completely from 1795 to 1918, the US was formed by settlers, etc.
*emboldened text isn't my doing
A solution only works if it's accepted by everyone
So how can that possibly work in a situation with a vast imbalance of forces? The only "solution" that can be "accepted" by everyone is if one side gets everything it wants in exchange for not torturing the other side to death. The Treaty of Versailles was equitable in comparison with Israeli demands. How did that work out?
So if Likud are voted out of contention at the next election and the governing coalition (which includes RZP) falls apart this conflict will end?
You don't believe that any more than I do.
You know very well that I referenced Likud and the Religious Zionist Party because you claimed that Hamas wouldn't accept neither of the two solutions which have been widely offered (you claimed that no one was offering solutions)
Hamas's position is not really particularly relevant to the situation in terms of a long-term solution (nor is Likud's). The reason for Hamas's political success is because of the failure of the PLO which has actually accepted the two-state solution.
Personally I think a two-state solution with a genocidal zionist state is impossible, Israel will never want peace. But make it a real possibility/reality and support for Hamas will fall.
Likewise the secular democratic one-state solution, make that a reality and not only would Palestinians undoubtedly embrace it but probably also much of Hamas.
We know what is wrong it can be spelt out in just half a dozen words.... "there is no justice for Palestinians". And there are solutions. But the zionists will not accept any solution which allows justice for the Palestinians.
So we are where we are, endless wars, violence, death, and destruction. There can never be peace without justice, as Lenin once pointed out.
Blimey the view from the train of Australians demonstrating in support of Palestine/Humanity in torrential rain in Sydney Harbour, in the clip in this article, is impressive.
Personally I think a two-state solution with a genocidal zionist state is impossible, Israel will never want peace. But make it a real possibility/reality and support for Hamas will fall.
This popped into my YouTube feed
Yossi Beilin, a former Israeli Justice Minister who initiated the 1993 Oslo accords reacts to the news that Hamas 'will not disarm until an independent Palestine is recognised'.
He tells Ben Kentish that the Israeli government 'is not serious about peace'.
In 1995 Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin was assassinated by the right wing extremist Yigal Amir.
Itamar Ben-Gvir (currently head of Israeli national security) has a picture of Yigal Amir on his wall and earlier today https://www.timesofisrael.com/in-first-ben-gvir-openly-leads-prayers-on-temple-mount-in-violation-of-status-quo/
The terror group's statement came after major global powers, including the UK, indicated they would recognise a Palestinian state in the coming months.
Belin says Britain's support for a two-state solution moves the region closer to peace, but Prime Minister Keir Starmer was wrong to 'connect' his policy to the actions of Israel.
Following the news, Israel's Prime Minister Netanyahu criticised Starmer, saying he "rewards Hamas’ monstrous terrorism and punishes its victims."
You know very well that I referenced Likud and the Religious Zionist Party because you claimed that Hamas wouldn't accept neither of the two solutions which have been widely offered
I didn't know that at all. How could I?
(you claimed that no one was offering solutions)
I didn't claim that nobody had ever offered solutions (although I can see that my phrasing was misleading - my bad). We all use poor phrasing occasionally, such as the double negative "Hamas wouldn't accept neither of the two solutions", so they would accept either? 🙂
I don't know how long TheFlyingOx has been studying this, but my point is that the current conflict (since Oct 7th) doesn't have a solution while the current Israeli government and Hamas are in a state of open war.
While it has parallels, Apartheid in SA was only repealed because of a very different set of circumstances to those in the middle-east, including a change of President, the cost of war, the declining economy, etc.
The one and two-state solutions will only work if everyone accepts them, otherwise they will again descend into war. In other words the "solution" failed aka it wasn't a good solution.
The two-state solution has been accepted by a couple of Israeli governments but never enacted and polling amongst both populations shows a luke-warm reception at best. Arguably the one-state solution has been running for decades and that clearly isn't working
While it has parallels, Apartheid in SA was only repealed because of a very different set of circumstances to those in the middle-east, including a change of President, the cost of war, the declining economy, etc.
Potentially it is not a very different set of circumstances imo. I genuinely believe that the days of the zionist project are numbered the only uncertainty are the actual numbers. Settler colonialism has no role to play in the 21st century and Israel's demise is as certain as that of the British Empire was a hundred years ago - having the largest navy in the world and spanning the globe did not save the British Empire which was gone 25 years after the end of WW2
Israel's current genocidal behaviour are the symptom of its greatest ever existential crisis from which it will never recover, it simply can't. Like apartheid in South Africa it won't be defeated militarily but Israel will never ever have peace and security which is a situation that is simply not sustainable. Just like SA apartheid Israel's demise will come from internal and external pressures.
The one huge difference with SA apartheid is that no country (with the possible exception of Israel) openly supported the SA apartheid regime and they were very much isolated politically and diplomatically on the world stage in a way that Israel clearly isn't, or at least hasn't been until now.
One day a government in Israel will have to accept that the game is up for the zionist dream and they will try to get the best possible conditions for their surrender, in the same way that white supremacists in South Africa and Zimbabwe negotiated when they realised that their colonial dreams were in tatters.
This was just over two weeks ago :
Today the Israelis have used their precision weapons to target the Palestine Red Crescent Society headquarters in Gaza.
Obviously they are looking into the incident, they do a lot of that.
Obviously they are looking into the incident, they do a lot of that
A lot of looking. Not much seeing.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/aug/02/idf-no-fault-conclusion-alleged-war-abuse-cases-report
Judging from their appearance these are presumably Hasidic Jews and therefore the "wrong sort of Jew", many zionists would argue, but I really like this clip because it is clear that it hasn't been carefully rehearsed and the father is expecting his son to give answers based on the morality which he hopes he has instilled into him.
https://youtube.com/shorts/wv7aY0GLh5U?si=nCPu321Ib-dDrQlm
The one huge difference with SA apartheid is that no country (with the possible exception of Israel) openly supported the SA apartheid regime
Well, Rhodesia did. But...
😉
For those who assume that the hatred of Palestinians which zionists endlessly express is reciprocated by Palestinians, and doubt therefore in the feasibility of a single democratic state solution in which all can live in peaceful coexistence, have a look at this clip in which Daniel Mate is talking to his father and brother.
His father Gabor is a Holocaust survivor and world renowned trauma expert. All three were brought up as zionists.
https://www.tiktok.com/@mo.salah9891/video/7334895933479505185
Global Jewish opposition to Israeli zionists continues to grow, just one more recent example :
"I say with one voice that we oppose these atrocities, not in spite of our Judaism, but for many of us because of it," Morriah Kaplan, interim director of IfNotNow, told the protest.
New York City Comptroller Brad Lander, the city's highest-ranking Jewish elected official, said at the protest, "Yesterday we commemorated Tisha B'Av, mourning the destruction done to the Jewish people. Today, we are standing to call out the destruction being carried out by the Jewish state."
It is absolutely scandalous that the current UK Labour government will not treat Israel as the pariah state it so clearly deserves to be treated as.
An interesting point of view from an Israeli historian...... Judaism is currently facing possibly its greatest turning point since the fall of the Temple and the Roman conquest
I've just heard a report on R4 which emphasised that some IDF soldiers have done multiple 'tours' in Gaza and this might be a reason why they have protested a full ethnic cleansing occupation. Shooting and starving civilians must be traumatic for some.
How long before the Israeli state decides to explore measures to spare the feelings of individual soldiers whilst still killing civilians?
🤔
I've just heard a report on R4 which emphasised that some IDF soldiers have done multiple 'tours' in Gaza and this might be a reason why they have protested a full ethnic cleansing occupation. Shooting and starving civilians must be traumatic for some.
How long before the Israeli state decides to explore measures to spare the feelings of individual soldiers whilst still killing civilians?
🤔
Google Capt (reserve) Ron Feiner, jailed in May for refusing to turn out again after multiple tours totalling 270 days
He made his decision to refuse after being called on after a ceasefire that had barely begun before it was ignored
I presume you are missing what I am alluding to deliberately.
Sanction the entire Israeli cabinet from any travel to the UK under threat of arrest, Sanction all Israeli imports, Open investigations into every UK citizen who has travelled to Israel to enrol in the IDF as a potential war criminal and do not allow UK citizens any further involvement with the IDF.
Any less than that is hand wringing from starmer and this government
How long before the Israeli state decides to explore measures to spare the feelings of individual soldiers whilst still killing civilians?
It seems like poisoned food is the preferred technique.
I think the refusal rate for reservists is about 40% which is obviously causing huge problems for the IDF.
The reasons no doubt will be multiple but I believe that no clear war aims and the fact that Hamas still hasn't apparently been defeated after almost 2 years is sapping morale.
Also an unwillingness to die or be seriously injured for these unknown war aims undoubtedly plays a part. As well as the knowledge that Benjamin Netanyahu's personal political survival is now a major factor for the continued hostilities.
I presume you are missing what I am alluding to deliberately.
II don't think so. Professional militaries (reserve or regular) understand that they are there to resolve conflict and they understand that there's a line. It varies from person to person, but more and more are seeing that line and refuse to cross it for a variety of reasons.
PM Netanyahu is already under fire from ultra-orthodox Jews over conscription and has lost two ultra-orthodox parties from his government, not to mention his current and former senior military officers
His military is tired, stretched too thinly and they are no nearer to resolution because Netanyahu keeps inventing more oppression and they are about to take close-up and personal responsibility for millions of Palestinians in Gaza by invading it and displacing any semblance of governance.
Your caustic comments occasionally cause deeper thought
https://www.dw.com/en/germany-suspends-arms-exports-to-israel-for-use-in-gaza/a-73569858
Of course, it’ll make no difference. With Trump backing his scorched earth policy, Netanyahu will carry on.
Of course, it’ll make no difference. With Trump backing his scorched earth policy, Netanyahu will carry on.
Still, it’s significant that this is too much for even the Germans to stomach.
So, do we still think Netanyahu's goal is not to ethnically cleanse Gaza?
Your caustic comments occasionally cause deeper thought
Multiple ironies within this.
Remember the “Red heifers” from last year?, with the Jewish prayers being carried out at Al-Aqsa mosque last week by Ben-Gvir and troop of genocidal religious freaks I figure we are well on our way to allowing this to happen
Can you believe this shit the freaks believe?, W-T-A-F*** 😯
Israel slaughtering journalists from within Gaza yet again,
Jeremy Bowen reporting on the settler ghouls, remove them by force at gunpoint just as they treat the Palestinian farmers, if they refuse then let their carcass fertilise the soil.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cj4wwxz12jko