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This is now getting into the realms of personal attack
That's really taking the biscuit considering that you have launched a personal attack on me because I dared to point out that Israel was built on the lie of an empty land.
Anyway since you believe that claiming you know some Israelis somehow strengthens your argument then I think it is perfectly reasonable to ask if you know any Muslims.
As I said, there was a guy previously on this thread who was a Muslim married to a Jewish woman and claimed to have relatives in Israel, he tried his very best to project a position of neutrality with regards to this conflict, you seem to be doing exactly the same.
Personally I don't take positions of neutrality in cases of genocide. And I make no apologies for that.
This is now getting into the realms of personal attack
That's really taking the biscuit considering that you have launched a personal attack on me because I dared to point out that Israel was built on the lie of an empty land.
Anyway since you believe that claiming you know some Israelis somehow strengthens your argument then I think it is perfectly reasonable to ask if you know any Muslims.
As I said, there was a guy previously on this thread who was a Muslim married to a Jewish woman and claimed to have relatives in Israel, he tried his very best to project a position of neutrality with regards to this conflict, you seem to be doing exactly the same.
Personally I don't take positions of neutrality in cases of genocide. And I make no apologies for that.
What I'm curious about, is that although we clearly share a lot of views regarding Israeli state and the actions of its military, you seem to keen to attack me simply because I challenge certain aspects of your narrative. I have no idea who the person to whom you are referring is, and as I've said, my personal life is none of your concern. You don't get to ask me questions that aren't pertinent to this discussion, who the hell do you think you are? And for the record; I did not launch a 'personal attack' on you, I merely challenged your outdated assertion of a tired old trope.
It's very clear that in any discussions about such contentious subjects, that there will be very shrill minorities on both sides, who seek to dominate and enforce their own views and narratives, and who will immediately attack anyone who dares question them. So many such discussions then becomes sidetracked with arguments and attacks, and anyone who did actually want to discuss anything in a civil matter ends up becoming disillusioned and gives up. Leaving only the shrill minorities shouting at each other. And nothing ever gets solved. This thread is just one example; it's really just 2 or 3 individuals who wish to control the narrative, and woe betide any dissenters.
But the rest of us really can have a proper discussion, if we ignore the extremists.
Personally I don't take positions of neutrality in cases of genocide. And I make no apologies for that.
Good for you. I bet that makes you feel all warm and fuzzy inside. Doesn't actually solve anything, buy hey; as long as you're feeling righteous whilst kids are being murdered, eh?
. I bet that makes you feel all warm and fuzzy inside.
🤣 At least try to change your style if you want to remain incognito!
But the rest of us really can have a proper discussion, if we ignore the extremists.
"The rest" have given up. Most people know and say that the government of Isreal is in the wrong, that they are asking their armed forces to carry out crimes against humanity. Both as regards the ethnic cleansing and flattening of Gaza, and the illegal and violent settler expansion in the West Bank. The line that keeps people away from this thread is the suggestion (or more) that Isreal shouldn't exist... when no one says that Russia shouldn't exist, or the USA, or ****stan, or any other country whose government uses war to further their own ends. That's the discussion that creeps people out, and means this thread is left to "extremists", as you put it.
Maybe you should have a word with renowned Israeli historian Ilan Pappe who, like me, believes that reminding people of the colonial-settler "empty land myth" is very relevant today, he discussed it in his book which is currently in print.
So in the second chapter, 'A People Without A Land', Pappé writes:
"The ominous signs of how these seemingly religious and mythical beliefs might turn into a real program of colonization and dispossession appeared in Victorian Britain as early as the 1820s. A powerful theological and imperial movement emerged that would put the return of the Jews to Palestine at the heart of a strategic plan to take over Palestine and turn it into a Christian entity. In the nineteenth century, this sentiment became ever more popular in Britain and affected the official imperial policy: “The soil of Palestine ... only awaits for the return of her banished children, and the application of industry, commensurate with agricultural capabilities, to burst once more _ into universal luxuriance, and be all that she ever was in the days of Solomon.”© Thus wrote the Scottish peer and military commander John Lindsay. This sentiment was echoed by David Hartley, an English philosopher, who wrote: “It is probable that the Jews will be reinitiated in Palestine.”/
The process was not wholly successful before it received the support of the United States. Here, too, there was a history of endorsing the idea of a Jewish nation having the right to return to Palestine and build a Zion. At the same time as Protestants in Europe articulated these views, they appeared in a similar form across the Atlantic. The American president, John Adams (1735-1826), stated: “I really wish the Jews again in Judea as an independent nation.”® A simple history of ideas leads directly from the preaching fathers of this movement to those with the power to change the fate of Palestine. Foremost among them was Lord Shaftesbury (1801-85), a leading British politician and reformer, who campaigned actively for a Jewish homeland in Palestine. His arguments for a greater British presence in Palestine were both religious and strategic.”
It's clear that nobody with actual knowledge believed Palestine was empty. That was myth perpetuated by those with a vested interest in establishing a Jewish homeland, not for benevolent reasons, but for power and influence in the region. That must be seen as distinct and separate to the earlyZionist movement. It is, in essence, Western non-Jewish construct. This is what I've been getting at in previous posts. So to speak of it in reference other modern day Israel is disingenuous and misleading. By the time of the formation of the State of Israel in 1948, such a myth had largely been forgotten. Hence why it's irrelevant to use it now to justify your use of the term 'lie' when referring to the formation of modern Israel. You'd have realised this had you actually read Pappé's work.
So now we have established the reality of why the West (mainly the USA and the UK) have supported Israel for so long, we can start to understand the machinations of Western colonialism. And why our governments are traditionally so unwilling to challenge Israel and complicit in genocide. And also, why Jeremy Corbyn had to be stopped at all costs. Which is why the focus should not be so much on Israel, its people or even its government but on our own leaders. Because without their complicity, Israel could not perform as it does. But it serves the interests of our governments and their global corporate supporters, for people to continue hating 'Israel;' and blindly continue with the 'good vs evil ' populist narrative. The way to achieve change in Israel and Palestine, is through achieving political change here and in the USA. But while the gravy train of war and human bondage continues, so Palestine will never be free. We have to break the cycle, starting here. I think people are really starting to get why Palestine Action were proscribed; the smoke is starting to clear, and people are removing the scales from their own eyes.
But the rest of us really can have a proper discussion, if we ignore the extremists.
"The rest" have given up. Most people know and say that the government of Isreal is in the wrong, that they are asking their armed forces to carry out crimes against humanity. Both as regards the ethnic cleansing and flattening of Gaza, and the illegal and violent settler expansion in the West Bank. The line that keeps people away from this thread is the suggestion (or more) that Isreal shouldn't exist... when no one says that Russia shouldn't exist, or the USA, or ****stan, or any other country whose government uses war to further their own ends. That's the discussion that creeps people out, and means this thread is left to "extremists", as you put it.
Exactly. Well put. The more vocal on this thread may well have something of value to input, but they have to accept this is a discussion, and others are allowed to hold different views and opinions, and challenge assertions they don't agree with. But it's a pattern that's common across the internet; for example, if you challenge a call to 'boycott Israel', say by arguing that a blanket boycott actually hurts Palestinians as many Israeli lawyers, doctors, academics etc who actively stand for Palestinian rights end up being cancelled, you get screamed at and accused of being a baby-killing Zionist or something. Unhelpful. Such people just don't seem to possess the ability, the emotional intelligence to understand that we don't all think exactly alike, and there are myriad shades of grey. As I said; hating is easy. Understanding takes a lot more effort.
As an aside; it's kind of disturbing that the over-zealous swear filter stars out the first part of P a k i stan. That needs attention I'd say. AI gone too woke?
Some poor Jewish lad, victim of an inhumane system
I think people are really starting to get why Palestine Action were proscribed; the smoke is starting to clear, and people are removing the scales from their own eyes.
Waves at hanch 🖐️
Israels acts with total impunity and is planning on building a concentration camp but hey……….Hanch has something to say about posts on the forum
Israels acts with total impunity and is planning on building a concentration camp but hey……….Hanch has something to say about posts on the forum
You just say that because you lack emotional intelligence. Or maybe there are <lowers voice> "other reasons" !!!
China has its 50 cent propaganda army, I imagine the Israel propaganda gig is better paid.
I particularly enjoyed the AI written posts in the football thread to build up your forum presence, and AI is getting better, but there are still tells.
That's the discussion that creeps people out, and means this thread is left to "extremists", as you put it.
What I find quite creepy is labelling those who want a secular democratic Palestine for all "extremists".
What do you call the current UK government's position of supporting a genocidal apartheid regime......"moderate"?
That sort of moral logic fits nicely in an alternative universe where those who starve and murder children are not labelled terrorists and actually helped, but those who spray paint on stationary aircraft are labelled terrorists and risk prosecution.
Wanting countries to be secular is an honourable cause I agree with. Talking about wanting the destruction of Israel, but none of the other states born out of western imperialism, will drive people away from the thread to avoid engaging. That’s understandable.
What do you mean by "the destruction of Israel" ?
It doesn't bother me in the slightest if Israel exists, it is the abhorrent political system which I want to see the end of. Call Palestine Israel if you will, Israel is after all mentioned approximately 43 times in the Quran, it's the racist apartheid system which I want to see end of.
My opposition to apartheid in South Africa wasn't based on wanting "the destruction of South Africa".
will drive people away from the thread to avoid engaging. That’s understandable.
What a disingenuous comment. You know full well that If criticism of Israel is now mostly unchallenged on this thread it is because Israel is involved in a horrific genocide.
Engaging with those who criticise Israel (which now appears to be most human beings who have an opinion on the matter) is always going to be a pointless task because it is impossible to defend the indefensible. That’s understandable.
video clip is 3min long
Speaking to the New York Times, Jewish actors Mandy Patinkin and Kathryn Grody heavily criticised Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and his policies in Gaza.
The pair spoke out against the conflation of criticism of Israel's government with antisemitism and said Netanyahu's actions were "endangering Jewish people" around the world.
Patinkin implored Jewish people to question "how it could be done to you and your ancestors, and you turn around and do it to someone else
Complete 50min video of interview below
The pair spoke out against the conflation of criticism of Israel's government with antisemitism and said Netanyahu's actions were "endangering Jewish people" around the world
I think Netenyahu and co have been doing it for so long…. creating an alternative reality where the Israeli regime is the brave and plucky underdog fighting a tide of antisemitism, rather than the genocidal industrial killing machine it has become… that they now actually believe the ridiculous world they’ve created
Whereas if you’re outside the land of make believe of their bunker, things look very different
that they now actually believe the ridiculous world they’ve created
When you are taught it in schools and brought up led to believe nothing else that is always going to be the way.
That level of anger expressed by Mandy Patinkin in the first clip is something which I have regularly seen among Jews who are critical of Israel's genocide in Gaza.
I have been to meetings in support of Palestine where Jewish speakers have been the most emotional and angry. And for very good reasons.
that they now actually believe the ridiculous world they’ve created
When you are taught it in schools and brought up led to believe nothing else that is always going to be the way.
People are essentially like sheep; they want to be led. It's far easier to just do what you're told, than to have to think for yourself. The UK is no different in this regard really; see: Brexit. But yes; Israeli state propaganda and the control of media is a lot more insidious and overreaching than it is most in other places. Israelis I talk to say how they are constantly having to relay factual information to family and friends there, as they're just not seeing it on their TVs etc. Haaretz, the Israeli version of the Guardian, is one of the few lone voices of dissent in anyway (and even then it's very careful in its coverage), but like the Guardian, it isn't read by all that many people outside of a wealthy middle class elite. It's important to always look for parallels between societies, as the reality is that the UK is not so far off where Israel is right now; as mentioned, we've had Brexit, and are now seeing the bleak probability of a far-right wing government in just a few years. Understanding just how easily led people are, is key to being able to affect any form of political change.
We in Britain also have to acknowledge that our society is a lot more socially liberal than much of the rest of the world, it might not seem like it but most nations are far more conservative in their social structures. Our education system, particularly at university level, has been far more open and diverse in nature, than that which exists in many other countries. Britain is still at the forefront of global intellectualism. Yet in spite of that, we're witnessing political regression. So shifting back to Israel, which has not enjoyed such intellectual and social diversity, it's easy to see why so many people gladly follow the mainstream political doctrine. But Israel is not that different to many other countries; we've seen the election of far-right wing governments in places like Hungary, Poland, Italy and of course now the USA. The cause of all this is very complex, but the bottom line is that people are kept in the dark, fearful of others, and that xenophobia is manipulated to control.
Another aspect is that people are also essentially tribal; we all have an inherent human desire to belong to something, a group, a community, a nation. In a secular society such as ours, we seek out other like-minded people who share our own political and social ideals and opinions. It's heartening to see most people apparently opposing the genocide in Palestine right now. But this has brought with it its own form of tribalism; there are myriad 'pro-Palestine' groups and organisations, but of course it's always the more extreme, vocal ones that seem to gain prominence. They will use extremely graphic imagery, and highly emotive language, with little subtlety or nuance, to push their own agendas. And in all of this noise, it's easy for insidious divisive rhetoric to slip in unnoticed. And then, individuals become too afraid to speak out against things they aren't comfortable with, lest they become ostracised and ejected from the 'tribe'. So the more extreme views are challenged less and less. And those most vociferous will attempt to shout down any dissent lest it weaken the tribe; as we've seen demonstrated so perfectly on this very thread.
In essence, we aren't so different, people. We in the UK aren't so different from most Israelis, when it all boils down. Which is why we should be looking for that which unites us, not divides us. If more Israelis understood just how much support they have globally, then perhaps more would find the courage to speak out there. Whilst all they see is shrill hysteria constantly attacking 'them', they will remain in their ideological bunkers.
It's important to always look for parallels between societies, as the reality is that the UK is not so far off where Israel is right now
Well, you speak for yourself, but personally I'm quite a way off from going out and shooting a child in the head.
It's important to always look for parallels between societies, as the reality is that the UK is not so far off where Israel is right now
Well, you speak for yourself, but personally I'm quite a way off from going out and shooting a child in the head.
Plenty of British troops have committed war crimes in various parts of the world in the last couple of decades. I think you misunderstood the point that we are all capable of unspeakable things, if indoctrinated enough. I'm guessing you've not ben subjected to social indoctrination from birth, so probably impossible to relate. It's very easy to say something when you've never been exposed to a certain situation. In Rwanda, an estimated half a million men were murdered, often by close neighbours, and an comparable number of women raped. It's easy to sit there form the comfort of your armchair, and claim you wouldn't' do this or that. Ordinary human beings carry out the most horrific atrocities; you cannot say you would never be cable of such yourself.
As I said; easy to hate, much harder to actually understand.
- Blimey, these bots don’t half go on
I struggle with long sentences!
- Blimey, these bots don’t half go on
I struggle with long sentences!
Good point, well made.
Hanchenkuchen - maybe you should just write "I support Israel!" in all your posts from now on, because that's all anyone appears to be able to translate them as.
🙄
- Blimey, these bots don’t half go on
I struggle with long sentences!
Good point, well made.
Hanchenkuchen - maybe you should just write "I support Israel!" in all your posts from now on, because that's all anyone appears to be able to translate them as.
🙄
I can't be held responsible for others' lack of comprehension and ignorance. You'd have to be particularly thick to think that I support 'Israel', given my posts here. I think some people are incapable of reading properly, given the amount of vitriol I'm receiving. But it doesn't bother me; that some have no course of action other than to abuse and attempt to smear just shows how shallow and empty their own arguments are. What's at the root of it is the fact that they haven't actually ever really sat down and considered their own chosen tribalism; to admit flaws in their decision making process, and the choices they've made, would be to admit weakness. And as soon as the weakness of their position is exposed, they react angrily. It's common, in such debates. Which is why it's good to weed out the shrill bullies from the start, so that actual sensible discussion can be held.
As I said, there's many layers of nuance, many shades of grey. But some can only see things in absolute black and white terms. Which is why their arguments don't get them anywhere. They aren't interested in actually listening, or engaging with dialogue they just have an insecure need to be heard. Even if they've got nothing of any value to say.
For those who are actually interested in listening and learning, this is a good podcast series. It's by two Israelis, so will automatically be dismissed as 'hasbara' by some of the hard of thinking. But for those who are open-minded, it's actually very enlightening:
https://open.spotify.com/show/5CT8QicPO31pe7AX0jA4Wp
You'd have to be particularly thick to think that I support 'Israel', given my posts here.
Guess that makes me thick then. Suspect I am not alone.
Would be better to just provide the prompts being entered into chatgpt as they will be shorter than the responses but enough to see what they are trying to say
Blimey, these bots don’t half go on
Not a bot, but clearly mainly written by AI, with a few personal flourishes, a human poster using using AI to construct their argument of obfuscating genocide and ethnic cleansing.
Did you think that up all by yourself, or did you get help?
Anyone listened to that podcast yet? No? Ok....
You'd have to be particularly thick to think that I support 'Israel', given my posts here.
Guess that makes me thick then. Suspect I am not alone.
Ok, so if you genuinely think I support 'Israel', please; go ahead and give examples.
Because if I do, then surely that task should be easy, no?
This might help…
Ok, so if you genuinely think I support 'Israel', please; go ahead and give examples.
Because if I do, then surely that task should be easy, no?
The pretence of balance to unbalanced events is very obvious, but at least you have shown some emotion now, unfortunately unlike Mandy Patinkin on the previous page who is angry about the slaughter of a nation, the sniping of children, the destruction of cities, the use of aid to lure starving families into killing fields, you get angry because you have been worked out on a mountain biking forum.
Ordinary human beings carry out the most horrific atrocities; you cannot say you would never be cable of such yourself.
Nice straw man, since I've never said that. Clearly the evidence is that ordinary people can be persuaded to do very nasty things. You mention Rwanda, and there are many other examples including lab experiments. It's so obvious it doesn't need to be stated - though that doesn't seem to stop you doing so at inordinate length. What is less obvious is where our personal responsibility lies. Is it enough for the Israeli on the Tel Aviv omnibus to claim innocence on the basis that he heard racist stuff his whole life? Should we be excusing Hitler because his mother locked him in a cupboard?
Ok, so if you genuinely think I support 'Israel', please; go ahead and give examples.
Because if I do, then surely that task should be easy, no?
The pretence of balance to unbalanced events is very obvious, but at least you have shown some emotion now, unfortunately unlike Mandy Patinkin on the previous page who is angry about the slaughter of a nation, the sniping of children, the destruction of cities, the use of aid to lure starving families into killing fields, you get angry because you have been worked out on a mountain biking forum.
Angry, nah mate. Things like genocide and the needless murder of tens of thousands of innocent people makes me angry. You, on the other hand, get angry at someone whose words you don't actually understand. Bless. You know, you can ask me questions if it's all a bit too complicated for you.
So, any examples? No, didn't think so. That must be somewhat embarrassing, eh? To make up a blatant lie then get called out on it?
Now, I wonder who else does that...?
Ordinary human beings carry out the most horrific atrocities; you cannot say you would never be cable of such yourself.
Nice straw man, since I've never said that. Clearly the evidence is that ordinary people can be persuaded to do very nasty things. You mention Rwanda, and there are many other examples including lab experiments. It's so obvious it doesn't need to be stated - though that doesn't seem to stop you doing so at inordinate length. What is less obvious is where our personal responsibility lies. Is it enough for the Israeli on the Tel Aviv omnibus to claim innocence on the basis that he heard racist stuff his whole life? Should we be excusing Hitler because his mother locked him in a cupboard?
If you want to work out what drives people to do stuff, in order to try to prevent it from happening again, then yes, it's kind of important to try to understand. If we are to change anything about the current situation, then we most certainly have to understand the motivations for such behaviour. Like; if we want to understand why people in the UK are so fearful of migrants, for example, we need to listen to them. Then, we can at least challenge those fears, and try to educate them towards a better path. Now I accept we are a very long way past that point with a lot of people in Israel, but there are at least younger generations growing up who could be better educated and enlightened, and hopefully less fearful and hateful as they grow up. Indeed, many of the big anti-government/anti-war demonstrations in Israeli cities are led by young people. How can we best use the resources we have available to us now, to try to affect change? This is what many small peace organisations in Israel are doing right now. They are having dialogue with others, and discussions about how to move forward. Did you listen to the podcast I linked to? Those are two such young Israelis who are doing just that. It's depressingly little, but you have to start somewhere. And those young people are doing a **** load more positive and progressive actions than this forum is.
Angry, nah mate. Things like genocide and the needless murder of tens of thousands of innocent people makes me angry. You, on the other hand, get angry at someone whose words you don't actually understand. Bless. You know, you can ask me questions if it's all a bit too complicated for you.
Too little too late, I am genuinely angry about the one sided slaughter going on in gaza and have expressed that anger many times, unlike your crocodile tears now your little charade is over.
Those are two such young Israelis who are doing just that. It's depressingly little, but you have to start somewhere. And those young people are doing a **** load more positive and progressive actions than this forum is.
People in Israel are in a better position to influence the situation in Israel than a UK MTB forum. Amazing, I know, but since you're keen on statements of the bleedin' obvious, you should approve.
It's a little old, obviously the BBC wouldn't dare run this story now, but it should be noted that the sources are Isreali newspapers, and of course Isreal will have significantly ramped up its efforts over the past 2 years.
https://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-news-from-elsewhere-23695896
Those with foreign language skills who receive these "scholarships" would not identify themselves as being in the pay of the government. Instead, Israel's Ha'aretz, external newspaper says, the plan is to make the programme appear to be based on the activity of politically-neutral students, with the Prime Minister's Office also hoping to recruit from pro-Israel student groups from around the world.
Guys - Hanchenkuchen has attempted to be even handed ( and has condemned the genocide) and has been brave in sticking his head above the parapet and I get his point about looking to understand the motivations of the Zionists. I get the temptation but its a becoming a bit of a pile on
Good expose by Double Down News
And…..
Why did Culture Secretary Lisa Nandy host the far-right Israeli ambassador and say she understood Israel's 'serious concerns' about the BBC, Glastonbury, and Gaza?
https://zeteo.com/p/uk-governments-support-for-israeli?utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=web
He may have "condemned" the genocide but read through his words again. It's not explicit but there is a definite leaning towards supporting Israel seasoned through the word salad and in my opinion, stress my opinion, he is deliberately pushing buttons to provoke. I get the impression that far from being a pile on, he is relishing the attention.
has condemned the genocide
I know standards are not what they were, but I don't think "condemned a genocide" is much of a qualification for being seen as one of the "good guys".
It would be good to have an official statement on exactly what someone needs to say in order to pass the 'good guys' test
It would be good to have an official statement on exactly what someone needs to say in order to pass the 'good guys' test
It's quite simple... if you have anything to say that might under any light be seen as making a point towards the positive for Israel, you're a bad guy. The good guys condemn everything outright.
For goodness sake people, why can we not discuss this properly? Giving insight and background into the reasons of Israel's behaviour is not excusing it. It's like someone saying "poverty and lack of education leads to higher crime levels" and someone else saying "oh so you support criminals do you?!?! Excusing them?!?!".
It's nonsense.
If a post contains content...
- by a certain person
- by someone from a certain country
- suspected of being partially written or formatted by AI
- showing anything but outright black/white condemnation and hand-wringing
... then it should be ignored at best, and seen as supporting Israel at worst.
The amount of logical fallacies here is ridiculous.
He may have "condemned" the genocide but read through his words again. It's not explicit but there is a definite leaning towards supporting Israel seasoned through the word salad and in my opinion, stress my opinion, he is deliberately pushing buttons to provoke. I get the impression that far from being a pile on, he is relishing the attention.
Oh I agree full of excuses and the usual false accusations of antisemitism
I don't think "condemned a genocide" is much of a qualification for being seen as one of the "good guys".
I didn't say he was
It was just a thought thats all. It felt to me like it was tipping towards a pile on and its good to have a differnt perspective
Bless
I can't believe how some people still haven't figured out who you are !
You have damn near signed every one of your posts on this thread!
Fair play to him though Ernesto.....he's learnt to use ChatGPT since he was last banned.
Personal development, innit?
https://news.un.org/en/story/2025/07/1165359
"For too long, international law has been treated as optional – applied selectively to those perceived as weak, ignored by those acting as the powerful. This double standard has eroded the very foundations of the legal order. That era must end
Enough impunity. Enough empty rhetoric. Enough exceptionalism. Enough complicity. The time has come to act in pursuit of justice and peace – grounded in rights and freedoms for all, and not mere privileges for some, at the expense of the annihilation of others.”
The woman should be a shoo-in for the Nobel Peace Prize
The woman should be a shoo-in for the Nobel Peace Prize
She would be in any rational universe. My money is on Donald Trump and Benjamin Netanyahu to share it. Probably nominated by Keir Starmer.
The woman should be a shoo-in for the Nobel Peace Prize
She would be in any rational universe. My money is on Donald Trump and Benjamin Netanyahu to share it. Probably nominated by Keir Starmer.
Its possible
More from Jeff Halper
The first clip in particular makes a very important point imo.
It would be good to have an official statement on exactly what someone needs to say in order to pass the 'good guys' test
It's quite simple... if you have anything to say that might under any light be seen as making a point towards the positive for Israel, you're a bad guy. The good guys condemn everything outright.
For goodness sake people, why can we not discuss this properly? Giving insight and background into the reasons of Israel's behaviour is not excusing it. It's like someone saying "poverty and lack of education leads to higher crime levels" and someone else saying "oh so you support criminals do you?!?! Excusing them?!?!".
It's nonsense.
If a post contains content...
- by a certain person
- by someone from a certain country
- suspected of being partially written or formatted by AI
- showing anything but outright black/white condemnation and hand-wringing
... then it should be ignored at best, and seen as supporting Israel at worst.
The amount of logical fallacies here is ridiculous.
The irony is, of course, that we're essentially pretty much all on the same 'side' here, in that none of us want to see senseless slaughter of innocent people. The difficulty is that some people have painted themselves into an ideological corner to such an extent, that they simply cannot cope with any opinion that strays from their utterly rigid and narrow ideological framework. I think you've summed it up quite well with your poverty and crime analogy. Notice that not a single person has actually managed to refute anything I've said, there's not been a single coherent argument offered (I mean, we're clearly not dealing with too many intellectual heavyweights here, but hey), just a load of misunderstanding and crazy conflation.
It's easy to shout about your 'support' for Palestine. It's easy to wave a little flag at demos, carry a placard decrying the evil of demons. It's easy to chant right-on slogans, to be seen to be on the 'right' side. It's easy to virtue signal to a point where others think you're 'nice'. Nobody wants to be thought of as not nice, now, do they? How cool you look with your Palestine t-shirt, and your 'Free Gaza' stickers. Go you.
It's a lot harder to challenge a common,widespread narrative though. My aim here was to challenge such, andI've achieved my aim and then some; as I've said the lack of any coherent, intelligent argument against, coupled with the multiple attempts to demonise and denigrate me, evidences the fact that some people just cannot handle a diversity of opinion and perspective. And don't respect others either. We've seen one lie already, about how I support 'Israel', and here's another:
Oh I agree full of excuses and the usual false accusations of antisemitism
I mean, it's pretty easy to debunk this; as the claim about me supporting 'Israel' was proven to be a lie, so there is no actual evidence to support this latest one.
Nothing. They've got nothing. They never have. Zealots, whatever their flag, always show up with nothing. I mean, I didn't know that there was a competition of worthiness, who can prove themselves the most righteous supporter of Palestine, but wow. Some people are really going for it, aren't they? But it's all quite hollow; it's virtue signalling on an embarrassing level. We can see why such people want to shut down any actual debate; they need to maintain the echo chamber in which they find refuge for their insecurities. I get that. If you lack the ability to engage with subjects outside your comfort zone, you may well feel threatened.
But there you go. If anyone does actually want to discuss matters in a respectful manner, then I'm all up for it. If all you've got is ad hominems and abuse, please go elsewhere. Thanks.
It's easy to shout about your 'support' for Palestine. It's easy to wave a little flag at demos, carry a placard decrying the evil of demons. It's easy to chant right-on slogans, to be seen to be on the 'right' side. It's easy to virtue signal to a point where others think you're 'nice'. Nobody wants to be thought of as not nice, now, do they? How cool you look with your Palestine t-shirt, and your 'Free Gaza' stickers. Go you.
It's a lot harder to challenge a common,widespread narrative though. My aim here was to challenge such, and I've achieved my aim and then some
I don't quite follow this bit. Maybe I've lost track somewhere.
Firstly I don't think there's anything wrong with showing support for Palestine, if done in the right way. Why not? Virtue signalling or genuine, either way it shows everyone that a lot of people support them and the more publicity that gets the better (eg, pressure on governments).
Not everyone is cut out for travelling to Gaza as a aid worker or whatever. Waving a flag is doing something.
And secondly I'm not sure what the narrative is that you're referring to?
It's easy to shout about your 'support' for Palestine. It's easy to wave a little flag at demos, carry a placard decrying the evil of demons. It's easy to chant right-on slogans, to be seen to be on the 'right' side. It's easy to virtue signal to a point where others think you're 'nice'. Nobody wants to be thought of as not nice, now, do they? How cool you look with your Palestine t-shirt, and your 'Free Gaza' stickers. Go you.
It's a lot harder to challenge a common,widespread narrative though. My aim here was to challenge such, and I've achieved my aim and then some
I don't quite follow this bit. Maybe I've lost track somewhere.
Firstly I don't think there's anything wrong with showing support for Palestine, if done in the right way. Why not? Virtue signalling or genuine, either way it shows everyone that a lot of people support them and the more publicity that gets the better (eg, pressure on governments).
Not everyone is cut out for travelling to Gaza as a aid worker or whatever. Waving a flag is doing something.
And secondly I'm not sure what the narrative is that you're referring to?
Of course, people turning up in their hundreds of thousands to demonstrate against the genocide is good, as it sends a global message that we oppose it en masse. I'm not having a go at that; I've been on many such demos, have been going for decades, long before Palestine was a 'cool' cause. What I'm getting at is the zealotry that sadly infects some, and the rigid, binary narrative as we've seen displayed on here.
I'm responding to those who made ridiculous and inaccurate claims that I support 'Israel', simply for not agreeing 100% with their chosen rhetoric. Why do they think themselves so righteous? Is there a league table of righteousness; 'Supporter of Palestine of the Year'? Perhaps if everyone else left this thread, it would end up with the zealots arguing over who is the biggest supporter of Palestine. Who would your money be on?
(I mean, we're clearly not dealing with too many intellectual heavyweights here, but hey),
[...]
It's easy to shout about your 'support' for Palestine. It's easy to wave a little flag at demos, carry a placard decrying the evil of demons. It's easy to chant right-on slogans, to be seen to be on the 'right' side. It's easy to virtue signal to a point where others think you're 'nice'. Nobody wants to be thought of as not nice, now, do they? How cool you look with your Palestine t-shirt, and your 'Free Gaza' stickers. Go you.
[...]
. Zealots, whatever their flag, always show up with nothing. I mean, I didn't know that there was a competition of worthiness, who can prove themselves the most righteous supporter of Palestine, but wow. Some people are really going for it, aren't they? But it's all quite hollow; it's virtue signalling on an embarrassing level. We can see why such people want to shut down any actual debate; they need to maintain the echo chamber in which they find refuge for their insecurities. I get that. If you lack the ability to engage with subjects outside your comfort zone, you may well feel threatened.
[...]
If all you've got is ad hominems and abuse,
Well it's odd you mention that, because it's looking more and more that once we get past the Kumbaya bullshit about "emotional intelligence" and understanding the poor Israelis, ad hominem is pretty much all that's left in your locker.
Lol! Touché.
I haven't referred to an entire nation of people as 'rabid dogs' though, so...
inaccurate claims that I support 'Israel',
Agreed. You obviously feel sneering contempt for both supporters of Palestine and supporters of Israel. It is just that because supporters of Palestine are currently the most vocal on here you are focusing on them.
You appear to be suffering from the same internal turmoil caused by conflicting loyalties as a previous poster on this thread. He had to try to reconcile his Muslim heritage with his wife's Israeli heritage.
Seems the Zionists below are now saying that the new superman movie is antisemitic 🤣 , if you want a dive into the Zionist freaks mindset then have a look at the Twitter posts.
https://twitter.com/Betar_USA/status/1944795559182905660
According to a couple of coppers in Kent holding a sign saying "Israel is committing genocide in Gaza" would be reasonable suspicion to believe that someone was supporting a proscribed terrorist organisation.
This is worth watching to the end
https://bsky.app/profile/madoc.bsky.social/post/3ltztdhbql22h
Well done Yvette Cooper and the current Labour government, you are doing a great job intimidating people who are speaking out against a genocide being committed by a far-right regime, I am sure that your new found friend Donald Trump would approve.
According to a couple of coppers in Kent holding a sign saying "Israel is committing genocide in Gaza" would be reasonable suspicion to believe that someone was supporting a proscribed terrorist organisation.
This is worth watching to the end
Well done Yvette Cooper and the current Labour government, you are doing a great job intimidating people who are speaking out against a genocide being committed by a far-right regime, I am sure that your new found friend Donald Trump would approve.
Notice how both officers in that video are wearing Thin Blue Line badges. These are ostensibly sold by a charity that supports police officers injured whilst on duty, but has been linked to far-right white supremacist groups. Now I doubt the average UK copper is particularly aware of all the political connotations of that badge, but I'm sure quite a few are. Police are not allowed to display any political symbols as part of their uniform. Such badges are banned from the Met police.
So, you've basically got coppers wearing symbols associated with white supremacist fascists, telling peace protesters not to support peace. This is our nation right now.
both officers in that video are wearing Thin Blue Line badges.
Interesting. I wasn't aware of the thin blue line badges.
I find it slightly sinister that some police officer might feel sufficiently relaxed to out themselves in such an obvious and public way.
Keir "Stamer" has said on "tv" that he is Jewish? There will be a clip then...?
Starmer is not Jewish, he was brought up COE
There will be a clip then...?
There won't be because it's bollocks.
I regularly hear surprising "facts" concerning zionism on social media, I sometimes post them on here if I feel they are particularly surprising but never without fact checking them first. I suggest you try the same protocol DrJ !
There won't be because it's bollocks.
Somewhat bollocksish, but not entirely
fb.watch/AUIszyLB4r/
(sorry, including the fb link wasn't working)
Somewhat bollocksish, but not entirely
Often, the worst and most harmful kind of bollocks is the kind that is only partly bollocks.
I can't see the link so I don't know what "not entirely" bollocks means. Starmer's wife and children can be fairly described as being Jewish but Starmer's parents were not Jewish and he isn't a convert Judaism, unless he has announced that he is? Sounds extremely unlikely imo, he claims to be an atheist.
Anyway the issue of whether Starmer is Jewish or not is completely irrelevant to any issues being discussed on this thread.
It certainly doesn't explain why Starmer gives his full and unwavering support to a vile genocidal far-right regime.
So, a video titled "Keir Starmer finally admits to being Jewish", in which Keir Starmer admits to:
a) his parents having family that is Jewish
b) sympathising with and supporting Zionism.
And the video poster says "This is why Israel government get so much support". Why? Because he is Jewish (even though he isn't). Notice the admission of supporting Zionism is ignored. It's because he's Jewish that he supports Israel.
The same tripe is then spread further by this Rosita Sweetman (and presumably others) and is even added to (now his parents are explicitly Jewish themselves).
Thanks DrJ for bringing this to our attention 🙄
The Guardian has picked up the story of the woman being threatened with terrorist offences for expressing opposition to genocide in Gaza
“It’s terrifying, I was standing there thinking, this is the most authority, authoritarian, dystopian experience I’ve had in this country, being told that I’m committing terrorist offences by two guys with firearms.
“I ended up giving my details, and I really resent the fact I had to do that because I don’t think that was lawful at all.”
What makes it particularly chilling is that politics in the UK is so screwed up that only 26 MPs voted against the abuse of anti-terrorist legislation. It isn't even a case of "if we hang on in there for another 4 years the next Labour government will restore democracy and get rid of this authoritarian shite".
It is going to take such a long time.
I was putting that event down to the attending police officers being simply and plainly wrong, but the quote there from a "A Kent police spokesperson" is chilling...
Under the Terrorism Act it is a criminal offence to carry or display items that may arouse reasonable suspicion that an individual is a member or supporter of a proscribed organisation such as Palestine Action.
What does that mean? That on this occasion the victim of police overreach should be considered guilty of the above? Or is it just scattering irrelevant truths around to misdirect attention away from their officers getting it wrong?
And the video poster says "This is why Israel government get so much support". Why? Because he is Jewish (even though he isn't). Notice the admission of supporting Zionism is ignored. It's because he's Jewish that he supports Israel.
I can't see the video but yeah, any suggestion that the reason Starmer supports Netanyahu murderous government is because he is actually Jewish himself sounds like very obvious anti-jewish bigotry to me.
My relationship with my British-Israeli accountant extends beyond business. She has talked to me extensively about Judaism, dietary laws, culture etc, and her Jewish heritage (we don't talk about Palestine!) She is a very active member of the local Labour Party which once also included Starmer's father. She knew Starmer's father very well and has told me about conversations she had with him. I am 100% certain that she would have mentioned to me that Starmer's father was Jewish if he had been.
What does that mean?
Well in the context of the Kent incident it seems to mean that if you have a sign saying "Israel is committing genocide in Gaza" they will have reasonable suspicion that you are supporting a terrorist organisation because Palestine Action are now a terrorist organisation and are saying exactly the same thing.
This coming Saturday's national demo in two days time in support of Palestine will be interesting. Especially depending on how the Met Police use/abuse their new found powers of arrest and custody
UK Lawyers for Israel Ltd has tried to silence various voices supporting Palestine. Their charitable wing has made public statements rejecting international law.
Jewish activist @EmHilton91 is on the Charity Commission offices to ask for an investigation.
“The weaponisation of antisemitism is not only an egregious attack on Palestine advocacy, civil liberties & human rights - it also hurts the fight against antisemitism. It makes it harder for us to identify true antisemitism when it happens & creates scepticism about whether anti-Jewish racism even still exists, or is just a political tool.
The post shared by Eno and others on Instagram says: “The scenes in Gaza have moved beyond description. We write as artists who’ve chosen to use our public platforms to speak out against the genocide occurring there and the role of the UK government in facilitating it.
“We’re aware of the scale of aggressive, vexatious campaigns operated by UKLFI and of multiple individual incidences of intimidation within the music industry itself, designed solely to censor and silence artists from speaking their hearts and minds.
In a statement provided to the Guardian, Massive Attack said: “This collective action is really about offering some kind of solidarity to those artists who are living day after day in a screen-time genocide, but are worried about using their platforms to express their horror at that because of the level of censorship within their industry or from highly organised external legal bodies, terrifying them and their management teams with aggressive legal actions. The intention is clear and obvious: to silence them.”
The amount of effort that organisation such as.UK Lawyers for Israel put into silencing critics of the genocide in Gaza, plus the current UK government's attempts to intimidate with false claims of terrorism, shows just how much importance they attach to public opinion.
And that should provide encouragement to all those who won't be silenced.
That Kent Police thing is a ****ing disgrace. Harassment and vexatious bollocks. Time to write to my lazy **** Labour MP to confirm this is what he signed up to.
Well there’s a surprise…….said no-one ever 🙄
https://twitter.com/KNEECAPCEOL/status/1946173386725744955
The Deputy Assistant Commissioner of the Met Police, Ade Adelekan, issued a statement yesterday in advance of tomorrow's national demo in support of Palestine. One paragraph stated :
“This is also the first large scale protest on this issue since Glastonbury Festival where offensive chanting led by an artist on one of the stages prompted a police investigation. Investigations are also underway, led by Met officers, following similar uses of the same chant in London.
The very next paragraph said:
“Those investigations are ongoing and it would not be appropriate to prejudge the outcomes, but I can say a bit more about our approach to similar chanting at this weekend’s protest."
So not appropriate to prejudge and yet that is exactly what he has done by describing the chanting as "offensive". It is no more offensive to say death to the IDF than saying death to the Russian army at a pro Ukraine rally. Would anyone be arrested for that?
What I find offensive is people who give military, diplomatic, and political, support, to an army who is murdering children.
And the Deputy Assistant Commissioner gives a chilling and threatening reminder of just how deeply repressive the anti-terrorist legislation which is being now used on non-terrorists is :
“I would urge those people to consider the seriousness of being arrested under the Terrorism Act and the very real long term implications – from travel, to employment, to finances – that such an arrest is likely to have for their future.